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Author Topic: True or False - Cincinnati OH has more Mass options than anywhere else  (Read 3033 times)

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Offline Matthew

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Re: True or False - Cincinnati OH has more Mass options than anywhere else
« Reply #15 on: April 10, 2023, 02:04:33 PM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on April 10, 2023, 01:52:43 PM
    "Objectively self-serving scheme"?  That is purely a subjective judgment on your part.

    I'm not convinced the anti-una cuм position is true or an error.  Just because the Church has never had to deal with a similar situation doesn't mean it's an error.

    Who's to say that assisting at a mass una cuм a heretic "pope" for decades is not a danger to one's soul?  Where are the "fruits" of the una cuм SSPX? Perhaps doing so for decades tends towards eventual compromise with the Devil.

    1. No, whether or not it's justifiable or good, objectively it serves the person who promotes it. That just is what it is. Now he might not INTEND that "self serving" but rather some higher motive -- but still, objectively, he's getting the benefit. That's what I mean by "objectively". We can only argue about whether or not he's JUSTIFIED in promoting the teaching, and whether or not his motives are base. We could also debate whether or not he willed that benefit as the PRIMARY motive, or a mere side effect of preaching "the truth". But the GOOD HE RECEIVES by promoting such a teaching? That's really beyond debate. Pure common sense.

    But again, even if he were just "preaching the truth", he still SHOULD KNOW BETTER, see #3.

    2. Even other sedevacantists didn't dare "go there" until Fr. C stepped up. Keep that in mind.

    3. Who's to say? Certainly not Fr. Cekada. He is binding the souls of his Faithful to his own personal opinions and views. He is elevating his opinions to the level of dogma, and then binding his Faithful to follow these new "dogmas". That is for ME and anyone else to condemn!

    4. Does attending an "una cuм" Mass lead to compromise with the devil? That would be speculation and opinion. But even if it did, it's not for Fr. Cekada to bind the Faithful to one of his opinions, as if it were Catholic dogma. That is just not an option. One cannot commit sin that good may come of it. THAT is a non-negotiable Catholic moral principle.

    And yes, it's sinful for a priest to presume to excommunicate other Catholics, cleric and lay, and to forbid attendance at other "competing" Masses.

    Fr. Cekada was a mere priest operating (under supplied jurisdiction, I might add) during a Crisis in the Church. It was not his place to usurp the role of Pope. Or to bind the consciences of his Faithful in matters of opinion. That is over-stepping both Catholic morality AND his authority as priest.

    One of the risks/tendencies/fruits of sedevacantism? Maybe I shouldn't say that out loud, as it might start a sede vs. non-sede debate...
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: True or False - Cincinnati OH has more Mass options than anywhere else
    « Reply #16 on: April 10, 2023, 02:15:38 PM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on April 10, 2023, 02:02:58 PM
    Second bolded: Not analogous.  Anti-popes were Catholic.

    It most certainly is analogous, demonstrating the difference between the formality vs. materiality of the name in the Canon.  It's not primarily about the individual being Catholic but about the individual being the Pope and, respectively the bishop, under whose authority you're offering the Mass.  Even with sedeprivationism, it would not be inappropriate to name the holder of the office in the Canon simply to indicate that you're in formal union with the papacy even if you think the individual only materially or just doubtfully holds the office.  NO ONE is inserting the name of someone into the Canon whom they consider to be a non Catholic simpliciter.

    In making this answer, you're begging the question about the non-Catholicity simpliciter of Jorge Bergoglio, as if it were dogmatically certain, thereby making the insertion of Bergoglio's name into the Canon tantamount to putting Kirill into the Canon.  But there's no Traditional Catholic priest who's putting someone whom they KNOW and BELIEVE to be a non-Catholic into the Canon (whether or not you agree or disagree with them), and consequently with the formal intent to align oneself with something other than the Catholic Church ... bringing us back full circle to the formal-material distinction.

    You're dogmatizing something two things here that have not been ruled upon by the Church.  You have to argue that 1) Bergoglio is a heretic, and 2) a heretic can't be pope.  You can argue until you're blue in the fact that both of these are certain, but it doesn't make either one dogmatically certain.  Church has not declared Bergoglio to be a heretic.  And, as much as SVs think St. Robert Bellarmine's position about a heretic pope being ipso facto deposed, the Church has not taught that opinion, and has not condemned Cajetan's deponendus position.  Consequently, while they might be totally wrong, and wronger than wrong, Bellarmine's opinion can't be imposed on someone else's conscience, and their rejection of the Bellarmine opinion (or mistaken, to the point of being laughable, opinion that Salza and Siscoe were right in claiming that Bellarmine held the same position as Cajetan), etc.  No matter how wrong they are, they're not wrong enough where their insertion of a V2 papal claimant into the Canon would constitute a formal adherence to some schism.
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: True or False - Cincinnati OH has more Mass options than anywhere else
    « Reply #17 on: April 10, 2023, 02:26:17 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on April 10, 2023, 02:15:38 PM
    It most certainly is analogous, demonstrating the difference between the formality vs. materiality of the name in the Canon.  It's not primarily about the individual being Catholic but about the individual being the Pope and, respectively the bishop, under whose authority you're offering the Mass.  Even with sedeprivationism, it would not be inappropriate to name the holder of the office in the Canon simply to indicate that you're in formal union with the papacy even if you think the individual only materially or just doubtfully holds the office.  NO ONE is inserting the name of someone into the Canon whom they consider to be a non Catholic simpliciter.

    In making this answer, you're begging the question about the non-Catholicity simpliciter of Jorge Bergoglio, as if it were dogmatically certain, thereby making the insertion of Bergoglio's name into the Canon tantamount to putting Kirill into the Canon.  But there's no Traditional Catholic priest who's putting someone whom they KNOW and BELIEVE to be a non-Catholic into the Canon (whether or not you agree or disagree with them), and consequently with the formal intent to align oneself with something other than the Catholic Church ... bringing us back full circle to the formal-material distinction.
    At this point, I find that very hard to believe. 

    With that, I'm leaving this discussion before I regret entering it.
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    Offline Marcellinus

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    Re: True or False - Cincinnati OH has more Mass options than anywhere else
    « Reply #18 on: April 10, 2023, 02:29:24 PM »
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    • Quote from: Matthew on April 10, 2023, 10:18:23 AM


    Could someone list the options in Cincinnati -- and then anyone else chime in with places that have more options, if they exist?

    Besides St. Gertrude’s and Immaculate Conception (the two large sites):

    Infant of Prague - Liberty Township, OH - Fr. Hall
    St. Margaret Mary - Urbana, OH - Fr. Hall
    Our Lady of Victories - Fairfield, OH - Bp. Ramolla 
    Our Lady of the Assumption  - Walton, KY - SSPX
    St. Therese - Lebanon, OH - CMRI
    Holy Family - Dayton, OH - FSSP

    If you extend out further into Ohio, Kentucky, and Indiana, there are a plethora of options. 


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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: True or False - Cincinnati OH has more Mass options than anywhere else
    « Reply #19 on: April 10, 2023, 02:29:49 PM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on April 10, 2023, 02:26:17 PM
    At this point, I find that very hard to believe.

    This is just plain silly.  So there are Trad priests out there who think, "I know for sure that Bergoglio is not Catholic and is not the pope, but I'll put his name in here anyway, thereby professing my adherence to this false religion."  This is getting to the absurd point of uprooting all common sense.
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: True or False - Cincinnati OH has more Mass options than anywhere else
    « Reply #20 on: April 10, 2023, 02:54:27 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on April 10, 2023, 02:29:49 PM
    This is just plain silly.  So there are Trad priests out there who think, "I know for sure that Bergoglio is not Catholic and is not the pope, but I'll put his name in here anyway, thereby professing my adherence to this false religion."  This is getting to the absurd point of uprooting all common sense.
    Now, now Lad.  You didn't write the underlined part in your original quote that I responded to.  That priest would be a sede.  It would be absurd for him to put his name in the Canon.

    But yes, I find it harder and harder to believe that any non sede priests and laity believe Bergoglio is Catholic.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: True or False - Cincinnati OH has more Mass options than anywhere else
    « Reply #21 on: April 10, 2023, 04:05:30 PM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on April 10, 2023, 02:54:27 PM
    Now, now Lad.  You didn't write the underlined part in your original quote that I responded to.  That priest would be a sede.  It would be absurd for him to put his name in the Canon.

    But yes, I find it harder and harder to believe that any non sede priests and laity believe Bergoglio is Catholic.

    Obviously no SV priest is going to put Bergoglio in the Canon.  We're talking about "una cuм" Masses in general.

    And I agree that Jorge is no pope, but at the same time, until we have certainty from the Church about it, I can't impose my conscience on some priest who does insert Bergoglio into the Canon, nor am I responsible for whether he does or does not put him in there, and my assistance at such a Mass does not make me party to some kind of schism.

    So the false dichotomy of Fr. Cekada's thinking on the matter can be expressed in this way ... if you see absolutely no difference between some Trad Catholic going to a Greek Orthodox Liturgy and going to an "una cuм" Mass offered by a Traditional Catholic priest.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: True or False - Cincinnati OH has more Mass options than anywhere else
    « Reply #22 on: April 10, 2023, 04:48:51 PM »
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    • Quote
    And Fr Cekada is not Martin Luther nor John Calvin.  No matter how much some folks would like to think so.
    Fr Cekada is similar to Luther and Calvin in that he didn't "stay in his lane" and perform his priestly duties, but took it upon himself to make arbitrary rules, based on his own theological arguments, which confused the faithful, started rivalries and distracted people from "the basics".  In a time of chaos, he created more chaos.  He took advantage of the lack of authority to blaze his own path.  Of course, I don't think Fr C is a heretic but he was grossly in error on this issue.  And he was stubborn about it.

    Quote
    I'm not convinced the anti-una cuм position is true or an error.
    :facepalm:  So you're going to defend something that you don't even believe 100%?  Typical woman - can't separate the prelate from the (false) principle.  So you blindly defend the prelate.  :facepalm:

    Also, it's never been proven that the "una cuм" prayer is ANYTHING MORE than praying for the pope/bishop.  Most pre-V2 sources explain the prayer this way; only Fr Cekada re-interpreted the prayer to mean "being in communion with" pope x, y or z.  So it's perfectly reasonable for priests to include the pope/bishop and pray FOR THEM, which is what the "plain english" reading of the prayer says.  (It even includes the phrase "and all those orthodox believers" which means the bishop/pope who isn't orthodox isn't included).

    I 100% reject Fr Cekada's whole "in communion with" idea.  It's never been proven nor does it jive with what the prayer says.
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: True or False - Cincinnati OH has more Mass options than anywhere else
    « Reply #23 on: April 10, 2023, 05:05:36 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on April 10, 2023, 04:48:51 PM

    :facepalm:  So you're going to defend something that you don't even believe 100%?  Typical woman - can't separate the prelate from the (false) principle.  So you blindly defend the prelate.  :facepalm:

    Way to make it personal.  Keeping it klassy, PV. 

    I actually lean against his position.  Why should that mean I shouldn't defend him when others are clearly assigning malicious motives for coming to his position?
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: True or False - Cincinnati OH has more Mass options than anywhere else
    « Reply #24 on: April 10, 2023, 05:20:36 PM »
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    • https://cmri.org/pdfs/response-to-stephen-heiner.pdf

    Here's Bp. Pivarunas' response to Stephen Heiner. It makes sense, and it doesn't defend anything that Heiner says.
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: True or False - Cincinnati OH has more Mass options than anywhere else
    « Reply #25 on: April 10, 2023, 06:01:17 PM »
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    • Quote
    I actually lean against his position.
    So you admit the whole "position" is optional.  Therefore, it's not a doctrine, nor "of the Faith".  It's pure speculation.  Therefore it's wrong to impose it.

    Quote
    Why should that mean I shouldn't defend him when others are clearly assigning malicious motives for coming to his position?
    See, in saner times, when the Church was working properly, if any priest started coming up with his own "opinions", he'd be told, simply to "Shut up and stop it."  If he continued, he'd be disciplined by his local bishop.  If he persisted, he'd be removed from his parish and sent to some monastery.

    At best, Fr Cekada/+Dolan are only guilty of some kind of intellectual pride and (to a lessor degree) the fallout from his imprudent, rash and pompous position.  At worse, they're guilty of being an agent of chaos and trying to divide Tradition.

    The idea that the una cuм prohibition "only applies to sedevacantists" (as you and many others consistently argue) is the definition of schismatic.  It's saying that Trad sedevacantists follow different rules than all other Trads.  This is a MAJOR problem.

    Anyone with a brain can understand that if you "draw a line in the sand" you necessarily invite a fight, a division and a split.  Maybe it's malicious, or prideful; or just unregulated bitter zeal.  Only Fr Cekada and +Dolan (and others) can answer that.  But it's definitely wrong.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: True or False - Cincinnati OH has more Mass options than anywhere else
    « Reply #26 on: April 10, 2023, 06:13:42 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on April 10, 2023, 04:48:51 PM
    Also, it's never been proven that the "una cuм" prayer is ANYTHING MORE than praying for the pope/bishop.  Most pre-V2 sources explain the prayer this way; only Fr Cekada re-interpreted the prayer to mean "being in communion with" pope x, y or z.

    I disagree with this.  "una cuм" clearly states that the priest is offering the Holy Sacrifice in union with the Pope and his bishop.  But it speaks to formal intent, even if there's material error about the name he actually puts in there.  It states the intention to be in union with the Church and subject to a bishop, with filling in the name being more along the lines of, "who currently happens to be named [Jorge]".  Those Traditional Priests who insert the V2 papal claimants (even if they are not popes, and I don't think they are) are clearly not stating, "I wish to adhere to the Conciliar Church and all its Modernist errors."

    Nor is there even an implicit theological statement there, as motives could range from ...

    he's certainly the pope to
    he's probably the pope to
    he may be the pope but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt to
    I don't think he's the pope but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt to
    he's not formally the pope but materiall the pope and so based on that I'll put his name in there to
    he's the visible sign of unity for the Church (Father Chazal's position)

    And even if the priest has a certain theological approach to the Crisis, simply assisting at his Mass does not make you an adherent of his own personal position.  It's ironic that Father Cekada (rightly) denounced the SSPV approach to CMRI as being akin to thinking of heresy as being transmitted like "cooties" but then doing the same with the una cuм issue, that if some priest mentions Bergoglio in the Canon, this puts the faithful who assist at the priest's Mass into formal communion with Jorge.  That's nonsense.  It's not some magic phrase that establishes "communion" by merely pronouncing it.  Under normal circuмsances, the faithful don't even hear the Canon.  So are we now obliged to get close and eavesdrop in on the Canon to hear whether or not Jorge is mentioned?
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    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: True or False - Cincinnati OH has more Mass options than anywhere else
    « Reply #27 on: April 10, 2023, 06:22:03 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on April 10, 2023, 01:00:55 PM
    Cleveland/Akron area (all within a one-hour drive from me):

    Tridentine (Traditional) --
    St. Peregrine (SSPX) -- Richfield, OH
    Immaculate Heart of Mary (SSPX-aligned) -- Akron, OH
    Sacred Heart of Jesus (CMRI) -- Akron, OH
    St. Therese of the Child Jesus (SSPV) -- Parma, OH
    Our Lady of Sorrows (SSPX) -- Girard, OH
    ** Immaculate Heart of Mary and Sacred Heart have regular daily Masses, but the others are mostly weekend and Holy Days, but I believe the plan is to build a priory at St. Peregrine (Richfield, OH ... halfway between Akron and Cleveland).  Father Carley of Immaculate Heart is closing in on being 90 years of age, and SSPX asked him to contribute to the new priory, as I think the intention would be to have the priests at the Richfield priory.  IMO, there's a very high probability that SSPX will close IHM after Father Carley is unable to function, sell the property, and tell everyone to go to St. Peregrine in Richfield.

    Tridentine (Motu) -- (Cleveland bishop has ignored Bergoglio's demands to shut them down, as these are all at parish churches except the FSSP)
    Queen of the Holy Rosary (FSSP) -- Vienna, OH (daily Mass + several preists)
    St. Paul -- Akron, OH
    St. Sebastian -- Akron, OH
    Immaculate Conception -- Cleveland, OH
    St. Stephen -- Cleveland, OH
    St. Rocco -- Cleveland, OH
    St. Ignatius of Antioch -- Cleveland, OH
    Mary, Queen of Peace -- Cleveland, OH
    St. Elizabeth of Hungary (weekday only) -- Cleveland, OH
    Immaculate Conception (weekday only) -- Willoughby, OH
    Sacred Heart of Jesus (first Saturday and first Sunday only) -- South Euclid, OH

    Eastern Rite -- about 15 or so within an hour of where I live (Ukrainian, Byzantine/Ruthenian, Melkite, and Maronite ... with Maronite being very modernized, the rest mostly OK)

    It's indeed sweet up your way, where TLM availability is concerned, as well as Eastern Rite churches.

    Northeastern Ohio is my Plan D or Plan E, as far as how I would wind up these final decades of my life, if for some reason I didn't stay in my present circuмstances, and not to be a "carpetbagger in reverse", but home prices are about as cheap as it gets, though for the sad reason of the decline in the area's once-robust economy.  So, Lad, if my life would ever "go south" (no pun intended) in a bad way, forcing the sale of my homes so that I'd have enough money to supplement my pensions... you might have me as a neighbor.
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    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: True or False - Cincinnati OH has more Mass options than anywhere else
    « Reply #28 on: April 10, 2023, 06:25:05 PM »
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    • Quote from: Marcellinus on April 10, 2023, 02:29:24 PM
    Besides St. Gertrude’s and Immaculate Conception (the two large sites):

    Infant of Prague - Liberty Township, OH - Fr. Hall
    St. Margaret Mary - Urbana, OH - Fr. Hall
    Our Lady of Victories - Fairfield, OH - Bp. Ramolla
    Our Lady of the Assumption  - Walton, KY - SSPX
    St. Therese - Lebanon, OH - CMRI
    Holy Family - Dayton, OH - FSSP

    If you extend out further into Ohio, Kentucky, and Indiana, there are a plethora of options.

    There are very small chapels in Chillicothe and Wheelersburg (Portsmouth), the latter being the closest TLM to the Charleston-Huntington (WV) urban corridor.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: True or False - Cincinnati OH has more Mass options than anywhere else
    « Reply #29 on: April 10, 2023, 06:30:09 PM »
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    • Quote
    I disagree with this.  "una cuм" clearly states that the priest is offering the Holy Sacrifice in union with the Pope and his bishop.  But it speaks to formal intent, even if there's material error about the name he actually puts in there.  It states the intention to be in union with the Church and subject to a bishop, with filling in the name being more along the lines of, "who currently happens to be named [Jorge]".  Those Traditional Priests who insert the V2 papal claimants (even if they are not popes, and I don't think they are) are clearly not stating, "I wish to adhere to the Conciliar Church and all its Modernist errors."
    The prayer makes it crystal clear that the purpose is to pray in union with the pope/bishop, assuming they are "orthodox believers".  If they are not, then the fruits of the mass don't apply to them.  One is praying WITH the pope/bishop (in a general sense...for their office, as a sign of unity) and also FOR them (specifically...only if they're orthodox).  Catholics can be "in union with" the papal office, with still disagreeing with the specific pope (or anti-pope).  But Fr Cekada ignored this distinction.

    Quote
    It's not some magic phrase that establishes "communion" by merely pronouncing it.  Under normal circuмstances, the faithful don't even hear the Canon.  So are we now obliged to get close and eavesdrop in on the Canon to hear whether or not Jorge is mentioned?
    Right.  Fr Cekada/+Dolan wanted to "draw a line in the sand" and make Trads decide on sedevacantism.  This "una cuм" farce was their way to force people to make a decision openly.  They took advantage of the the laity's dependence upon them as clerics, in the wild west days of Traditionalism, and tried to take control of the O.K. Corral.  Now Trads have to fight on multiple fronts - vs the Modernism of new-rome and the puritanism of some Sedes.
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