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Author Topic: Traditional rite of ordination vs new rite  (Read 13183 times)

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Offline saintbosco13

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Traditional rite of ordination vs new rite
« on: June 05, 2017, 07:47:50 PM »
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  •  
    The Church clearly teaches:  

    Quote
    "It is well-known that to the Church there belongs no right whatsoever to innovate anything on the substance of the Sacraments" Pope St. Pius X, Ex quo nono, 1910
     
    "Now it is clear, if any substantial part of the sacramental form be suppressed, that the essential sense of the words is destroyed; and consequently the sacrament is invalid." Summa Theologica, Whether it is lawful to add anything to the words in which the sacramental form consists?
     
    "...the Council of Trent teaches (Conc. Trid., Sess. VII, can. 1, De Sacram, in genere), the seven Sacraments of the New Law were all instituted by Jesus Christ Our Lord, and the Church has no power over "the substance of the Sacraments," that is, over those things which, as is proved from the sources of divine revelation, Christ the Lord Himself established to be kept as sacramental signs." Pope Pius XII, Sacramentum Ordinis, 1947

    Now look at the massive changes and omissions in the new rite of ordination: https://www.scribd.com/doc/15443209/Comparison-of-Old-and-New-Catholic-Rites-of-Ordination-to-the-Priesthood

    Why on earth are the SSPX and Resistance allowing Novus ordo priests into their ranks only ordained with the new rite of ordination when it is obviously doubtful at best ?


    Offline Marlelar

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    Re: Traditional rite of ordination vs new rite
    « Reply #1 on: June 05, 2017, 10:27:22 PM »
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  • And what about the consecration of the Bishops?  The ceremony for that is doubtful too.  Does the NO even have any truly valid Bishops now or have they all died out?

    The SSPX says that they review the ordination individually for each NO priest who comes to them, but I don't think they investigate whether the BISHOP who did the ordination was himself validly consecrated.  So that still leaves the ordination doubtful.


    Offline saintbosco13

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    Re: Traditional rite of ordination vs new rite
    « Reply #2 on: June 05, 2017, 11:19:19 PM »
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  • And what about the consecration of the Bishops?  The ceremony for that is doubtful too.  Does the NO even have any truly valid Bishops now or have they all died out?

    The SSPX says that they review the ordination individually for each NO priest who comes to them, but I don't think they investigate whether the BISHOP who did the ordination was himself validly consecrated.  So that still leaves the ordination doubtful.
     
    That's what's so astonishing - the SSPX says they review the ordinations of each NO priest, but those ordinations (administered with the new rite) are inherently doubtful, so what is there to review? And yes, the consecration of bishops is also in question. Why are the SSPX and Resistance looking the other way regarding this?
     

     

    Offline Marlelar

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    Re: Traditional rite of ordination vs new rite
    « Reply #3 on: June 06, 2017, 01:01:02 AM »
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  • Because they believe the NO is still at it roots, the Holy Roman Catholic Church, and that the Pope is Catholic.

    Offline White Wolf

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    Faith transcends reason, but is not opposed to it...
    « Reply #4 on: June 06, 2017, 03:26:36 AM »
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  • Fact #1
    The Traditional Church has always held that the Rite of Ordination must be supplied in its entirety, AND THAT IF ANYTHING IS MISSING IT MUST BE SUPPLIED.
    Fact #2
    Pius XII, in a complete stream of pontifical nonsense entirely opposed to Tradition, decreed right off the top of his head that the Traditio Instrumentum is not necessary for the Roman Rite and, subsequently,
    Fact #3
    The Novus Ordo removed the Traditio Instrumentum from its rite.

    Conclusion #1
    The SSPX believes that everything Pius XII did was infallible and inerrant; therefore, they accept the New Rite...

    Conclusion #2
    The Sedevacantists believe everything Paul VI did was an abomination, and they do not accept the New Rite...

    Conclusion #3
    99.9% of Traditional Catholics base their opinion on the "expertise" of (pick one or several) Bishop Fellay, Bishop Williamson, Pius IX-Pius XII, their local pastor...  and don't consider things from first principles.

    Logical conclusion:
    Pius XII spoke contrary to Tradition, therefore, his conclusions are doubtful, and the New Rite is based on his logic and is therefore doubtful.  So, what is so hard to understand?
    Our Lady of Fatima Pray for us you are our only hope!


    Offline ilpadrino

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    Re: Traditional rite of ordination vs new rite
    « Reply #5 on: June 06, 2017, 09:53:43 AM »
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  • That is a bad argument. First of all, WHO says Pius XII spoke against Tradition? Who are YOU?? The Magisterium has the assistance of the Holy Ghost to teach the truth; if you deny that, then what makes the Catholic Church different from any sect? Furthermore, if one actually READS the docuмent of Pius XII (Sacramentum Ordinis) he explains that in the Eastern Rites of Ordination (which the Church always regarded as valid), the Traditio of the instruments was NEVER used. Finally, he concluded with a solemn definition of the matter. Thus, not even "sifters" of the Magisterium" are free to throw it aside and replace it with their personal judgement.

    Offline saintbosco13

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    Re: Faith transcends reason, but is not opposed to it...
    « Reply #6 on: June 06, 2017, 01:08:35 PM »
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  • Fact #1
    The Traditional Church has always held that the Rite of Ordination must be supplied in its entirety, AND THAT IF ANYTHING IS MISSING IT MUST BE SUPPLIED.
    Fact #2
    Pius XII, in a complete stream of pontifical nonsense entirely opposed to Tradition, decreed right off the top of his head that the Traditio Instrumentum is not necessary for the Roman Rite and, subsequently,
    Fact #3
    The Novus Ordo removed the Traditio Instrumentum from its rite.

    Conclusion #1
    The SSPX believes that everything Pius XII did was infallible and inerrant; therefore, they accept the New Rite...

    Conclusion #2
    The Sedevacantists believe everything Paul VI did was an abomination, and they do not accept the New Rite...

    Conclusion #3
    99.9% of Traditional Catholics base their opinion on the "expertise" of (pick one or several) Bishop Fellay, Bishop Williamson, Pius IX-Pius XII, their local pastor...  and don't consider things from first principles.

    Logical conclusion:
    Pius XII spoke contrary to Tradition, therefore, his conclusions are doubtful, and the New Rite is based on his logic and is therefore doubtful.  So, what is so hard to understand?
     
    You obviously have no concept of the Magisterium. I smell Feeneyite.
     
    The point here is that the Church cannot touch the Sacraments. The Novus ordo not only touched them, but butchered them. Therefore the Novus ordo cannot be the Catholic Church. Everyone from the SSPX and Resistance fall silent on this issue and pretend it doesn't exist. This is one of the key issues showing their position is false.
     

    Offline Marlelar

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    Re: Traditional rite of ordination vs new rite
    « Reply #7 on: June 06, 2017, 03:04:55 PM »
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  • The Church clearly teaches:  

    Now look at the massive changes and omissions in the new rite of ordination: https://www.scribd.com/doc/15443209/Comparison-of-Old-and-New-Catholic-Rites-of-Ordination-to-the-Priesthood

    Why on earth are the SSPX and Resistance allowing Novus ordo priests into their ranks only ordained with the new rite of ordination when it is obviously doubtful at best ?
    On page 8 and 10 of the above link you can see that the power to confect the eucharist is omitted, and on page 12 the power to forgive sins is not conferred.


    Offline saintbosco13

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    Re: Traditional rite of ordination vs new rite
    « Reply #8 on: June 06, 2017, 06:59:29 PM »
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  • This is absolutely false.  Re-read the quotes in your original post...I don't think you understand them very well.  

    Believe me, I've read the quotes many, many times throughout my life. Are you saying it's okay for the Church to change the Sacraments ? ? ?  


    Offline songbird

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    Re: Traditional rite of ordination vs new rite
    « Reply #9 on: June 06, 2017, 08:01:41 PM »
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  • Without ordination, how many sacraments do you have left? Matrimony.  Baptism is "Initiation".  Protestant

    Offline curioustrad

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    Re: Traditional rite of ordination vs new rite
    « Reply #10 on: June 06, 2017, 08:08:01 PM »
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  • That is a bad argument. First of all, WHO says Pius XII spoke against Tradition? Who are YOU?? The Magisterium has the assistance of the Holy Ghost to teach the truth; if you deny that, then what makes the Catholic Church different from any sect? Furthermore, if one actually READS the docuмent of Pius XII (Sacramentum Ordinis) he explains that in the Eastern Rites of Ordination (which the Church always regarded as valid), the Traditio of the instruments was NEVER used. Finally, he concluded with a solemn definition of the matter. Thus, not even "sifters" of the Magisterium" are free to throw it aside and replace it with their personal judgement.
    I agree - but then everyone sifts at some time or another.
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    Offline curioustrad

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    Re: Traditional rite of ordination vs new rite
    « Reply #11 on: June 06, 2017, 08:15:22 PM »
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  • On page 8 and 10 of the above link you can see that the power to confect the eucharist is omitted, and on page 12 the power to forgive sins is not conferred.
    I used to think that too, but after the imposition of the bishop's hands and once the formula of ordination is said the priest receives all these powers not in virtue of the ceremonial but in virtue that he has received ordination and is a priest. These ceremonies confer nothing - they "flesh out" what a priest does. That's why Pius XII defined what was the matter and form of the diaconate, priesthood, episcopacy so the theological issue as to when they receive the order was settled. All of the power of orders is conveyed once the candidate receives the ordination.
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    Offline Asbury Fox

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    Re: Traditional rite of ordination vs new rite
    « Reply #12 on: June 10, 2017, 02:26:49 PM »
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  • Believe me, I've read the quotes many, many times throughout my life. Are you saying it's okay for the Church to change the Sacraments ? ? ?  
    The Church cannot change the sacraments, but can change the matter and form of some of the sacraments. Our Lord established the form specifically for Baptism and the consecration of the Eucharist, but left it to the Church to establish the form for other sacraments. The Church can and has changed the form for ordination to the priesthood.

    Offline songbird

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    Re: Traditional rite of ordination vs new rite
    « Reply #13 on: June 10, 2017, 05:47:44 PM »
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  • Not so.  If so, state where you read this canon, that the church, define church, can change what Christ Instituted.  Again, ordinations Holy Orders were so "changed" by man that there is "NO" consecration, No Holy Orders.  Thanks to the enemy, Freemasons.  

    The destruction is from the TOP - DOWN in the clergy, not Down to Top.  

    Offline Asbury Fox

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    Re: Traditional rite of ordination vs new rite
    « Reply #14 on: June 10, 2017, 07:25:21 PM »
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  • The Council of Florence taught that the passing of the chalice and patten, the tradition instrmentorum, was part of the matter of Holy Orders. This was part of the matter for centuries in the Latin rite. Pope Pius XII changed this and the matter for Holy Orders. Using his authority and that of the Church to change the matter and form for the five sacraments that the Church has the right to change, Pius XII ruled that now the matter for Holy Orders was merely the laying of hands. 

    Apostolic Constitution Of Pope Pius XII on the Sacrament of Order November 30, 1947 Sacramentum Ordinis:

    "#4  Wherefore, after invoking the divine light, We of Our Apostolic Authority and from certain knowledge declare, and as far as may be necessary decree and provide: that the matter, and the only matter, of the Sacred Orders of the Diaconate, the Priesthood, and the Episcopacy is the imposition of hands; and that the form, and the only form, is the words which determine the application of this matter, which univocally signify the sacramental effects - namely the power of Order and the grace of the Holy Spirit - and which are accepted and used by the Church in that sense. It follows as a consequence that We should declare, and in order to remove all controversy and to preclude doubts of conscience, We do by Our Apostolic Authority declare, and if there was ever a lawful disposition to the contrary We now decree that at least in the future the traditio instrumentorum is not necessary for the validity of the Sacred Orders of the Diaconate, the Priesthood, and the Episcopacy"