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Author Topic: Traditional latin Mass vs Mass of John XIII  (Read 1972 times)

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Offline theresao1965

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Traditional latin Mass vs Mass of John XIII
« on: June 05, 2017, 11:23:48 AM »
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  • At the advise of my pastor and my bishop, and I agree, I want to and need to understand more about my faith. As a cradle Catholic, there are many things I take and have taken for granted over time.  So please pardon me if my wording is less than correct or perfect! Can someone explain simply the differences between the traditional Latin Mass (that I attend at St Michael's parish here in Spokane, WA) and the John XXIII Mass?  I assume there are obvious differences that a lifetime traditional latin Mass attendee such as I would note as different between the 2?--yet in my ignorance, I do not know.  I already have taken a look at http://www.traditionalmass.org/articles/article.php?id=18 --from Bishop Dolan in Ohio--that has been helpful.  Can someone charitably help with more info?
    "Listen, put it into your heart, my youngest and dearest son, that the thing that disturbs you, the thing that afflicts you, is nothing. Do not let your countenance, your heart be disturbed. Am I not here, I, who am your Mother? Are you not under my shado


    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Traditional latin Mass vs Mass of John XIII
    « Reply #1 on: June 05, 2017, 11:47:15 AM »
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  • There aren't any differences.

    St. Joseph's name was added to the canon in the 1962 Missal. This sends some Traditional Catholics into a tizzy of panic. I don't see what the big deal is. It's not like this is destroying our Faith or something.

    I'm not against the Novus Ordo because it's different, feminine, sentimental, or unfamiliar. I'm against it because it systematically corrupts and destroys the Catholic Faith itself. It has grave defects even in the official Latin version. It's not about the Mass, it's about the Faith.

    The Catholic Faith -- with the Sanctifying Grace that it alone provides -- is what gets us to heaven. The Mass exists to give us Sanctifying Grace and nourish our Faith. It's not the other way around: Sanctifying Grace doesn't exist so that we can have a reason to go to Mass!

    I strongly disagree with those who would tell you, "You must avoid the 1962 Mass at all costs, even if it means never getting to attend Mass! Stay at home, read your missal, etc..." this advice is demonically inspired, foolish, and gravely harmful for souls.

    The devil doesn't care how he gets you -- he just wants to get you. And remember: the devil's primary goal is to separate us from the TRUE MASS which is an infinite fountain of grace. In the Mass, we receive the Author of Grace Himself, Our Lord Jesus Christ. If the devil can't get you by sucking you in to the Novus Ordo, he'll try from the other side! He'll try to make you into a "home aloner" who is -- guess what? -- separated from the True Mass!

    Home Aloners don't have the True Mass any more than Novus Ordo victims.

    I have been a Traditional Catholic for my whole life (40+ years). I have seen nothing which suggests that the 1962 Missal is IN ANY WAY INFERIOR to previous editions of the Missale Romanum.

    If you take 1000 Catholics raised on the 1962 Missal and 1000 Catholics raised on the 1955 Missal, there will be no statistical difference between the groups, using whatever metric you want to use: number still Catholic, number who are fervent, number who frequent Mass and Confession, number who pray the daily Rosary, number who know their faith well, number who live the Catholic Faith daily, number who are holy, etc.

    My conclusion: using, or insisting on, an older Missale Romanum offers no practical benefits whatsoever, when it comes to the main (and only) goal of Traditional Catholicism which is: KEEPING THE CATHOLIC FAITH.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Traditional latin Mass vs Mass of John XIII
    « Reply #2 on: June 05, 2017, 11:47:36 AM »
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  • At the advise of my pastor and my bishop, and I agree, I want to and need to understand more about my faith. As a cradle Catholic, there are many things I take and have taken for granted over time.  So please pardon me if my wording is less than correct or perfect! Can someone explain simply the differences between the traditional Latin Mass (that I attend at St Michael's parish here in Spokane, WA) and the John XXIII Mass?  I assume there are obvious differences that a lifetime traditional latin Mass attendee such as I would note as different between the 2?--yet in my ignorance, I do not know.  I already have taken a look at http://www.traditionalmass.org/articles/article.php?id=18 --from Bishop Dolan in Ohio--that has been helpful.  Can someone charitably help with more info?

    Have you read The Great Sacrilege yet?
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Traditional latin Mass vs Mass of John XIII
    « Reply #3 on: June 05, 2017, 11:59:40 AM »
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  • Bishop Dolan in Ohio, along with Fr. Cekada, has started a SECT which teaches people all over the world to stay home on Sunday rather than attend a non-sedevacantist Mass.

    This has caused hundreds of people to be cut-off from the Mass, the Sacraments and Sanctifying Grace.

    See, it's very HUMAN of those wretched priests to advocate this: it's better for business. They get more money, so they can enjoy more trips, fine food, fine wine, etc. I'm sorry, but this makes me very angry. Any priest who would put the good of souls SECOND after politics, money, comfort, security, luxury, etc. is an abomination.

    They have a lot of competition there in Cincinnati, OH (at least 3 Trad chapels within a 1/2 hour driving radius). So Fr. Cekada & co. didn't think they were doing any harm -- they're just competing fiercely with the other chapels, and their "you must not attend any Mass but ours" just helps their bottom line, by eliminating the competition as a valid option in the eyes of their brainwashed parishioners.

    The real demonic evil comes in here: Not everyone has access to St. Gertrude the Great sedevacantist Chapel in Cincinnati, OH. So countless people all around the world, via the Internet, fall for their rhetoric but have no option for Mass (as they see it). At least not within a 4 hour drive. So they become home-aloners, staying home from the SSPX, Resistance, etc. because those chapels use the 1962 Missal and say their Mass "una cuм" Pope Francis.

    See how this destroys souls?
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    Offline songbird

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    Re: Traditional latin Mass vs Mass of John XIII
    « Reply #4 on: June 05, 2017, 12:24:14 PM »
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  • If you desire the True Precious Blood, be sure you have a valid priest or you get nothing!


    Offline theresao1965

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    Re: Traditional latin Mass vs Mass of John XIII
    « Reply #5 on: June 05, 2017, 12:31:59 PM »
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  • Just for understanding.  My pastors were not suggesting at any point to stay away from the Mass of John XXIII...they merely suggested finding out differences. Just thought I should get that in, 'fore it gets a different life than intended.
    "Listen, put it into your heart, my youngest and dearest son, that the thing that disturbs you, the thing that afflicts you, is nothing. Do not let your countenance, your heart be disturbed. Am I not here, I, who am your Mother? Are you not under my shado

    Offline TKGS

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    Re: Traditional latin Mass vs Mass of John XIII
    « Reply #6 on: June 05, 2017, 01:18:09 PM »
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  • There are slight differences in the calendar (though this is in weekday Masses--it seems to me that the Sunday calendar of Masses are the same).  Also, a few prayers were suppressed--the only one that the lay faithful would probably notice is that the Confetior prior to Communion was suppressed though most priests who say the 1962 Mass continue that recitation of the Confetior.  I honestly don't believe there are many differences that the average layman would necessarily notice.

    The main issue is whether or not Pope Roncalli had any authority to make any changes at all.  


    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Traditional latin Mass vs Mass of John XIII
    « Reply #7 on: June 05, 2017, 01:57:30 PM »
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  • If you desire the True Precious Blood, be sure you have a valid priest or you get nothing!

    For those out there reading, that means a Traditional priest, ordained by a Traditional bishop.

    A traditional seminary formation wouldn't hurt, either, to make sure he knows Tradition himself, so he can defend Tradition against its many enemies.

    It's hard to fight for what you don't know.

    Going to "a good Latin Mass" isn't enough. Seeking out valid priests and true Mass/sacraments is central to what it means to be a Traditional Catholic.
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    Offline Nooseph Polten

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    Re: Traditional latin Mass vs Mass of John XIII
    « Reply #8 on: June 05, 2017, 04:47:26 PM »
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  • Honestly, I've never heard of the mass of John XIII
    +Truth and Justice for all+
                  JMJ

    Offline poche

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    Re: Traditional latin Mass vs Mass of John XIII
    « Reply #9 on: June 05, 2017, 11:37:32 PM »
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  • The mass that Pope John XXIII prayed was the TLM.  

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Traditional latin Mass vs Mass of John XIII
    « Reply #10 on: June 06, 2017, 07:58:35 AM »
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  • Can someone explain simply the differences between the traditional Latin Mass (that I attend at St Michael's parish here in Spokane, WA) and the John XXIII Mass?  
    I do not think anyone here knows what missal they use at your chapel, so I don't see how they can answer you in detail, which I assume  is what you want, detail.

    The changes of John XXIII in the 1962 missal were minor compared to the changes of Pius XII of the 1955 missal. Up to the 1955 missal, as far as I can check, 1850, (that's the oldest missal I have) there are no changes up to the Pius XII changes. After 1955 practically every year there were more changes, the 1962 was just another year of change, then the 1965 changes, then finally the 1969 Novus Ordo.  
    I assume your Spokane group uses the pre-1955 missal, the changes that took place in 1955 are big. It not only involves the missal it also involved many other aspects of the priestly life, it was the beginning of the "slow boiling" of Catholics toward to Novus Ordo. Traditioninaction.com  has volumes of material on the subject. Here's one:


    Dialogue Mass - XLV
    Revolutionary Nature of the Liturgical Reform
    Dr. Carol Byrne, Great Britain

    We have seen some, but by no means all, of the depredations (1) inflicted on the Palm Sunday liturgy, which became operative in 1956, and have noted that they were undertaken at the expense of authentic Catholic values, doctrinal integrity, poetic beauty and appreciation of the Church’s past achievements.

    History has indeed shown that these reforms were not only the tip of the iceberg of an unrestrained pillaging and ransacking of the ancient Holy Week rite; but they were also the first steps in a deliberate attempt to demolish our common heritage and usher in an entirely new kind of liturgy ‒ one that has not advanced the cause of Catholicism. It was a painful record of humiliation, defeat and loss for all the Bishops, priests and lay people who protested to the Holy See at the time. They were simply left to rail in impotent anger.

    Given the historical evidence, we are entitled to conclude that, in spite of protestations of good intentions by the liturgists, the reforms involved either an indifference to the nature of Catholic Tradition or a desire to eradicate it.

    One innovation begets another…

    It is only when the details are examined that the revolutionary nature of the reforms becomes apparent. Now we shall see what new ideas were dreamt up by the progressivists to replace what they had managed to purloin from the universal Church with the complicity of Pius XII.


    Pius XII opened the door to today’s liturgical committees that design liturgy for each parish
    The foremost issue was the “active participation” of the people, as Fr. Frederick McManus, a major figure in the reform, explained as soon as the new Holy Week Ordo was issued in 1956:

    “The rubrics of the Ordo refer constantly to the responses to be made by the members of the congregation and to their activity in the carrying out of the holy liturgy. This is of course a notable departure from the rubrical norms of the Roman Missal.” (2)

    What is even more revolutionary is that responsibility for carrying out the liturgy now falls, by papal diktat and for the first time in the Church’s History, on the shoulders of the laity: their “active participation” is “made a matter of rubrical law and incorporated into the very text of the new liturgical book.” (3)

    When has the Roman Missal ever laid down rules to regulate how the faithful should respond during the liturgy? (4) Even Fr. McManus had to admit that the traditional Missal was silent on the manner of lay participation. But the reformed Missal, on the other hand, made it incuмbent on the laity to give the responses and contribute actively to the performance of the liturgy.

    This shows that Pius XII imposed these changes in an authoritarian, oppressive and intrusive program to please the liturgical reformers. The impression was given that anyone praying silently in the pews during liturgical ceremonies would be guilty of breaking a law laid down by the Pope. (5)

    The ‘cult of novelty’ in the Palm Sunday liturgy

    The 1956 and 1962 Palm Sunday liturgy opens with a visual and (literally) shocking reversal of traditional practice. In order to reinforce the “community celebration” aspect, a portable table is set up in the sanctuary, the palms are laid on it and the priest blesses them in full view of the people, (6) all the while with his back to the altar and the Blessed Sacrament.


    Palms setout before a bare altar at a modern Novus Ordo church
    Reversing centuries of liturgical tradition, the 1956 Ordo of Palm Sunday mandated that the priest (or deacon) should conduct an audible dialogue with the people while facing them. This took place at various points: before the blessing of the palms; (7) both before and after the procession; (8) before the Gospel and at the Orate Fratres. (9)

    Ironically, the procession in honor of Christ the King was revamped to exalt the role of the people in the liturgy. Now that the supernatural significance of the sub-deacon’s role was eliminated, as were the traditional purple vestments – doubly significant as the color associated with royalty and Christ’s Passion – the way was open to enlarging the role of the laity.

    Whereas in the traditional Missal the singing of the liturgy was the function of the priest and cantors alternating with the choir, in the new Ordo this suddenly became the responsibility of all. (10) Thus, the congregation was required to sing not only during the blessing and procession of palms, but also throughout the entire Palm Sunday Mass. (11) This introduced a novelty into the rubrics for sung Masses. The Graduale Romanum issued by Pius X had not included instructions for congregational singing. (12)

    A made-up prayer

    Now, let us consider another innovation in the Palm Sunday liturgy that was incorporated into the 1962 Missal, having been first introduced into the 1956 Ordo: The prayer after the procession, which is said facing the people and to which they have to respond aloud. It was the result of a shambolic committee-work hastily cobbled together by Bugnini and his associates and was problematic for two reasons.

    First, theologically speaking, the prayer was vague and ambivalent. It mentioned palm branches and God’s blessing, but without establishing any intrinsic link between them, and spoke of our redemption being wrought by Christ’s “right hand” (a phrase normally attributed to the Father).

    Second, linguistically speaking, it was expressed in somewhat garbled Latin. Judging by its varying translations, no one seems to know what exactly the prayer was supposed to mean. Evidently, the composers of the prayer have left everyone guessing.

    The Bea Psalms – from optional to mandatory

    An example of an unwarranted intrusion into the Palm Sunday liturgy – indeed into the whole of the 1956 Holy Week ceremonies – was the imposition of a new Latin version of the Psalms, which had been undertaken, at Pius XII’s request, by a committee of biblical experts headed by Fr. Augustin Bea, S.J.


    Bea would take the liturgical reform further under his friend John XXIII
    This replaced St. Jerome’s Vulgate version of the Psalms that had been established as the universal and immemorial customary lex orandi (law of prayer) for the Latin Rite. Their authenticity was guaranteed by the Council of Trent on the basis of centennial custom, which is why the liturgical use of the Vulgate was regarded as sacrosanct, as we can see from the same Council’s warning that “no one is to dare, or presume, to reject it under any pretext whatever.” (13)

    At first, it was only optional, (14) but in 1956 Pius XII integrated some of the new Psalms by force of law into the Holy Week ceremonies, an initiative that was nothing short of revolutionary. This innovation was yet another example of how Pius XII subordinated immemorial Tradition to papal authority on the basis of the subjective opinions of the reformers, in a manner that would be adopted by Paul VI on a comprehensive scale.

    His reform gave rise to two major problems.

    First, the new wording of the Bea Psalms, drawn from Classical Latin vocabulary and syntax, was different from the “Christianized” idiom of the Vulgate, which the Church had adopted as the sacred language of the liturgy and which the clergy had been using for over 15 centuries.

    Fr. Bea despised the Latin recited by the clergy for so many centuries and unjustly called it a “decadent usage” incapable of meeting the standards of Classical Latin. (15) But there was no need to have an inferiority complex about it.

    As various classical scholars have shown, Medieval Latin was a direct descendant of the literary, learned Latin of the classical age, not a debased or corrupt form of it. It was this elevated form of Latin that the Church elaborated and adapted for use in Scripture and the liturgy, adding her own distinctive style and diction, to express the Christian message. And, so, there emerged the unique “Christianized” Latin that is found in the Vulgate. There the “family lineaments” of Latin Christianity are clear, revealing the Bea version as an interloper.

    Second, the Bea Psalms were ill adapted to Gregorian chant, making it awkward to sing in religious communities and providing a disincentive for them to do so. (16) The words were not, in general, those used by their forebears in the Faith and the new chants, which had to be composed to match, were not those that had echoed around the medieval monasteries. We can conclude that the new Holy Week ceremonies were not in harmony with the ancient Latin liturgical heritage and should have no place in the Roman Missal.

    Thus, we can see how Pius XII began a process that had the gravest possible implications for future changes in the liturgy – the gradual detachment of the clergy from the worship, theology and spirituality of their Latin patrimony.

    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24


    Offline poche

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    Re: Traditional latin Mass vs Mass of John XIII
    « Reply #11 on: June 06, 2017, 11:47:31 PM »
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  • If I am not mistaken the missal that the SSPX uses is the missal of 1962, aka Pope JOhn XXIII.