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Author Topic: Traditional Condemnations Against Female Altar Servers  (Read 908 times)

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Offline SeanJohnson

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Traditional Condemnations Against Female Altar Servers
« on: May 13, 2021, 08:48:51 AM »
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    • Excerpted from this article:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_altar_servers


    “Formerly, it was generally forbidden to have women serving near the altar within the sacred chancel (infra cancellos), that is, they were prohibited from entering the altar area behind the altar rails during the liturgy. In convents of nuns, women did serve within the chancel.[4]

    In his encyclical Allatae sunt of 26 July 1775, Pope Benedict XIV renewed the prohibition, "Women should not dare to serve at the altar; they should be altogether refused this ministry", stated more than five centuries earlier by Pope Innocent IV in his letter Sub catholicae professione of 6 March 1254 to Odo of Tusculum on Greek rites.[5] Pope Benedict XIV also stated that what he called the evil practice of women serving the priest at the celebration of Masshad been condemned also by Pope Gelasius I(492−496).[6]

    He used the following words:

    Quote
    Pope Gelasius in his ninth letter (chap. 26) to the bishops of Lucania condemned the evil practice which had been introduced of women serving the priest at the celebration of Mass. Since this abuse had spread to the Greeks, Innocent IV strictly forbade it in his letter to the bishop of Tusculum: "Women should not dare to serve at the altar; they should be altogether refused this ministry." We too have forbidden this practice in the same words in Our oft-repeated constitution Etsi Pastoralis, sect. 6, no. 21.[7]

    The references to "the Greeks" pertains to the Orthodox practice of ordaining women as deacons.[citation needed] With the practice of private Masses (Mass by a priest and one other person, often offered for a deceased person), scandal was an additional reason not to have a woman or girl alone with a priest.[citation needed] 

    However, it has been customary in convents of women for nuns to perform the ministry of acolyte without being formally ordained to that minor order.

    [citation needed]This practice was used[citation needed] when the Council of Trent developed the seminary system where men in minor orders would go away to schools for training to be a priest rather than study under a parish priest.[8]
    After the 1963 decision of the Second Vatican Council to reform the Catholic liturgy,[9] trials were carried out, including that of allowing females to serve Mass in girls' schools and convents. However, the 1970 instruction Liturgicae instaurationes, in putting the council's decree into effect, withdrew permissions granted for experiments with the Mass while the reform was a work in progress[10] and reaffirmed the traditional rules reserving service of the celebrant at the altar to males alone.[11] 

    This was repeated more briefly in the 1980 instruction Inaestimabile donum: "Women are not, however, permitted to act as altar servers." [12] At the time of 1970 and 1980 instructions, the 1917 Code of Canon Law was still in force. It ruled: "A woman is not to be the server at Mass except when a man is unavailable and for a just reason and provided that she give the responses from a distance and in no way approach the altar."[13] It was superseded by the 1983 Code of Canon Law, which did not maintain the prohibition.“
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Traditional Condemnations Against Female Altar Servers
    « Reply #1 on: May 13, 2021, 10:08:02 AM »
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    • It's very simple why women/girls cannot function in liturgical roles ... something which has been lost sight of by many.

    Any service during the public prayer of the Church requires a cleric, since only clerics can perform these public liturgical acts on behalf of the entire Church.  And of course, all the clerical orders are an extension of the priesthood and therefore only allowed to males.

    I notice the big consternation that the NO had regarding altar girls.  They never had any issues with having women be readers, sing in the choir, and even distribute communion ... and all those are also liturgical/clerical functions.
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    Offline cassini

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    Re: Traditional Condemnations Against Female Altar Servers
    « Reply #2 on: May 15, 2021, 06:36:33 AM »
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    • I remember the first time altar-girls were allowed in my local parish church, when most Catholics were conned into the NO Mass. I confronted our parish priest and told him it should not be allowed. I said the first road to priesthood was by way of altar-boys. If you let girls serve Mass the boys will opt out and vocations would be lowered, I said to him. Alas, he said Pope John Paul II allows it. I recall that was when I looked for and found a Latin-Mass.

    My father had me serving mass in a convent from the age of eight. I then served in my parish church in the 1950s. Myself and my best pal volunteered for everything in our church, not because we were holy but it was a great excuse to get out in the evenings in those days. As time went by we knew more about the Catholic faith than most. 1500 homilies over 10 years does teach one. I recall we served everything, funerals, weddings, including week long retreats for men one week and women the next. The womens' retreat was different. As soon as the sermon began the priest would look at us two and point to the presbytery where we were to go until he had finished talking to the women. No, we were good boys and didn't leave the door open to listen what was being said.

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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Traditional Condemnations Against Female Altar Servers
    « Reply #3 on: May 15, 2021, 07:37:17 AM »
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    • Quote from: cassini on May 15, 2021, 06:36:33 AM
    I remember the first time altar-girls were allowed in my local parish church, when most Catholics were conned into the NO Mass. I confronted our parish priest and told him it should not be allowed. I said the first road to priesthood was by way of altar-boys. If you let girls serve Mass the boys will opt out and vocations would be lowered, I said to him.

    This is deeper than most people realize.

    Psychologically, men and boys DO opt out when girls invade a sphere, especially when they excel there. For example, education. You can EITHER tailor to the boys or the girls. Impossible to tailor to both, since boy and girl brains are wired completely differently. As the saying goes, if it weren't for the fact that men and women can  reproduce and produce offspring together, a solid argument could be made that men & women constitute different SPECIES. That is how different men & women are. And the differences show up right away too, within the first couple years of life!

    So when the boys see the girls getting the best grades (naturally, since Education AT ALL LEVELS happens to be tailored to the female mind), boys "check out" and decide to place their eggs in other baskets -- like sports, where girls physically can't keep up with them.

    Boys are naturally competitive. If they see themselves losing, they naturally cut their losses and begin investing themselves elsewhere. Boys/men have a natural ego. It's basic human psychology. The same way women need to be loved, and require consensus to be happy.

    A J*w -- or anyone who understands human nature -- could have seen this coming a mile away. They probably did. They came up with Altar Girls very much on purpose. They knew what they were doing.
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    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Re: Traditional Condemnations Against Female Altar Servers
    « Reply #4 on: May 15, 2021, 09:49:02 AM »
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    • Has anyone seen reports about Tranz table-servers?  Considering how vigorously they are pushing Tranz everything, I wouldn't be shocked to see Tranz priests, bishops, even a Tranz pope, eventually, if this insanity isn't stopped.  Or maybe Francis will change his name to Frances (Mama Frances?), or some other stunt to push the envelope and support/promote the demonic agenda of TPTB?
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    Offline Mercyandjustice

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    Re: Traditional Condemnations Against Female Altar Servers
    « Reply #5 on: May 30, 2021, 01:21:09 AM »
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    • Lay hand missals in the vernacular were also once condemned... Also, the Fourth Council of the Lateran (1215) and the 
    Second Council of Lyon ( 1274) prohibited the founding of new religious orders. Yet, how many orders have been founded since 1215? Many... What I'm trying to say is: things change. At first I hated the idea of altar girls. Now I don't mind, but personally I don't like to see them in cassocks and surplices. I'd rather they were only allowed to wear plain white albs

    Lay Hand-Missals: “Damnata, reprobata et interdicta” – Canticuм Salomonis (wordpress.com)
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    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Traditional Condemnations Against Female Altar Servers
    « Reply #6 on: May 30, 2021, 07:02:22 AM »
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    • Quote from: Mercyandjustice on May 30, 2021, 01:21:09 AM
    Lay hand missals in the vernacular were also once condemned... Also, the Fourth Council of the Lateran (1215) and the
    Second Council of Lyon ( 1274) prohibited the founding of new religious orders. Yet, how many orders have been founded since 1215? Many... What I'm trying to say is: things change. At first I hated the idea of altar girls. Now I don't mind, but personally I don't like to see them in cassocks and surplices. I'd rather they were only allowed to wear plain white albs

    Lay Hand-Missals: “Damnata, reprobata et interdicta” – Canticuм Salomonis (wordpress.com)
    Apples and oranges....see Matthew’s post above.... if you don’t mind “altar girls” now, I truly pity you. You seem like the type that will accept anything eventually.
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    Offline Viva Cristo Rey

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    Re: Traditional Condemnations Against Female Altar Servers
    « Reply #7 on: May 30, 2021, 07:09:39 AM »
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    • 1 Corinthians 14:34. 

    The women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says.
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Traditional Condemnations Against Female Altar Servers
    « Reply #8 on: May 30, 2021, 08:32:32 AM »
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    • Quote from: Mercyandjustice on May 30, 2021, 01:21:09 AM
    Lay hand missals in the vernacular were also once condemned... Also, the Fourth Council of the Lateran (1215) and the
    Second Council of Lyon ( 1274) prohibited the founding of new religious orders. Yet, how many orders have been founded since 1215? Many... What I'm trying to say is: things change. At first I hated the idea of altar girls. Now I don't mind, but personally I don't like to see them in cassocks and surplices. I'd rather they were only allowed to wear plain white albs

    Lay Hand-Missals: “Damnata, reprobata et interdicta” – Canticuм Salomonis (wordpress.com)

    The sanctuary is no place for women or girls during Mass. Only males can ever receive Holy Orders; therefore only males should serve at the altar. Also, if boys see that girls are serving at the altar, they might get the idea that the altar is a place for girls, and less likely to listen to the call to the priesthood. I think that altar girls were allowed before female lectors, but I dislike them even more than altar girls. Women, according to Scripture, aren't supposed to speak in church. I'm not saying that men are infinitely better than women - just that men and women are very different.
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    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Prayerful

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    Re: Traditional Condemnations Against Female Altar Servers
    « Reply #9 on: May 30, 2021, 02:50:54 PM »
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    • Quote from: Mercyandjustice on May 30, 2021, 01:21:09 AM
    Lay hand missals in the vernacular were also once condemned... Also, the Fourth Council of the Lateran (1215) and the
    Second Council of Lyon ( 1274) prohibited the founding of new religious orders. Yet, how many orders have been founded since 1215? Many... What I'm trying to say is: things change. At first I hated the idea of altar girls. Now I don't mind, but personally I don't like to see them in cassocks and surplices. I'd rather they were only allowed to wear plain white albs

    Lay Hand-Missals: “Damnata, reprobata et interdicta” – Canticuм Salomonis (wordpress.com)
    Hand missals with translation had been used in France in the sixteenth century and continued to be used after this condemnation as a means to restore the Faith among French people who had long abandoned the Church. It was a Gallican ruling, ratified by the Pope, relating to the translation of M Voisin, even if the words of the Pope would apply to all translations. Female altar servers, and oftentimes at a Novus Ordo, it almost all female, that is, the readers and servers, all bossing around a feeble Novus Ordo priest who then answers to a majority female parish council. Any male who sees that will stay well away from altar service, and the priesthood, and increasingly, the Holy Faith.
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    Offline Mercyandjustice

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    Re: Traditional Condemnations Against Female Altar Servers
    « Reply #10 on: June 04, 2021, 01:48:18 AM »
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    • Quote from: Viva Cristo Rey on May 30, 2021, 07:09:39 AM
    1 Corinthians 14:34.

    The women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says.
    yet 1 Corinthians 11:5 says
    "But every woman praying or prophesying with her head not covered, disgraceth her head: for it is all one as if she were shaven."

    It seems to say that women may speak, as long as their heads are covered. So the stuff about women keeping silent in church must not be interpreted literally, but should refer to a woman speaking as if she were a priest
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Traditional Condemnations Against Female Altar Servers
    « Reply #11 on: June 04, 2021, 06:47:17 AM »
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    • Quote from: Mercyandjustice on June 04, 2021, 01:48:18 AM
    yet 1 Corinthians 11:5 says
    "But every woman praying or prophesying with her head not covered, disgraceth her head: for it is all one as if she were shaven."

    It seems to say that women may speak, as long as their heads are covered. So the stuff about women keeping silent in church must not be interpreted literally, but should refer to a woman speaking as if she were a priest

    I've always assumed that 'praying' and 'speaking' are two different things. When female lay lectors get up and speak in the pulpit in the Novus Ordo, that seems to be different than women who, say, pray along with the Rosary, or pray the after-low mass prayers, such as the Hail Mary, etc.
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29
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