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Author Topic: Tradition Catholicism and obedience  (Read 917 times)

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Offline jhfromsf68

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Tradition Catholicism and obedience
« on: August 26, 2013, 06:20:19 PM »
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  • Hi forum,

    I'm curious about this sermon gave by a FSSP priest. Being a laymen with no theological training, I'm confused by some of the concepts he's discussing. I assume someone with an SSPX or sedevacantist view of obedience would disagree with some of his theology or doctrine??

    I'm wondering if someone here with a better grasp of theology can point out where this priest gets it wrong and right when it comes to the Traditional Catholic understanding of obedience.

    Here is the sermon   http://www.audiosancto.org/sermon/20130630-Obedience-is-the-Only-Response-to-Authority.html

    Thank you
    God bless


    Offline songbird

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    Tradition Catholicism and obedience
    « Reply #1 on: August 26, 2013, 07:18:19 PM »
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  • FSSP:  Indult of the dioceses, no good.  If you hear a truth in a sentence and that sentence ends with a lie, it is a trademark of masonry.  Don't go to FSSP.


    Offline ThomisticPhilosopher

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    Tradition Catholicism and obedience
    « Reply #2 on: August 27, 2013, 02:39:26 PM »
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  •  :detective: I think what he wants is a line by line response to his question. He has no idea of what exactly is wrong with the theology behind the indult. If he is good willed and honest in his search, then he does not want a response "Don't go there." He would like to actually have evidence to say why it is wrong to go there.

    I think I have already listened to that sermon, I have pretty much listened to every single sermon on Audio sancto and I can tell you that I have personally docuмented so many things that are clearly wrong. Some of them are worse, but yes if you are very new to the faith I would just advice to stay away FROM ANY material that is post 1945+ and on. If possible stick to books from 1938 and before. The Holy Office was more anti-modernist from that time period and on. As a general rule NEVER read anything post Vatican II. I have found that the best Anti-Novus Ordo books are the older books, because there was no "controversy" at the time dealing with that question. Which is why it was so condemnatory against what would constitute the New Religion of the Conciliar sect. If you can tell me what sort of background you have and what you would be interested in reading I can recommend to you some material. If you are a convert to Catholicism, I can give you some material that will really strengthen your faith even more. The main thing is that you are new and whatever doubts you may have need to be cleared up before you make big decisions. You need to fortify yourself with good theology so that you can form good judgements in the sea of crazy ideas out there. There are a lot of false pseudo-traditionalist  :heretic: out there, and many 5th column sort of organizations that are not even remotely traditional (they are what we call false-opposition). Essentially the enemies of the Church have given us the problem and the "solution" (conservatism), but they want you to stay within their claws.

    Our Blessed Saviour said that my "Sheep will hear my voice." Amen.  :pray:

     :incense: :incense: :incense:
    https://keybase.io/saintaquinas , has all my other verified accounts including PGP key plus BTC address for bitcoin tip jar. A.M.D.G.

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Tradition Catholicism and obedience
    « Reply #3 on: August 27, 2013, 03:37:42 PM »
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  • I couldn't make it past a few minutes.  

    The anonymous preacher in this sermon aims to prove the proper course of obedience, by comparing St. Joan of Arc to Savonarola, the Italian friar who was a major dissenter of Alexander VI, and eventually excommunicated and executed by him.  Within the first few minutes, he says that while we can admire the bravado of Savonarola, God was clearly not 'behind' him, since he's not a saint.  On the other hand, Joan of Arc who submitted to the authorities to be executed (even though it was a great act of injustice) was sainted.

    The conclusion that the mystery preacher reaches is that God is pleased when we submit to authority per se.  He is displeased when we don't.

    There are several things wrong with this:

    1) No one has authority to command sin.  Traditional Catholics believe the Novus Ordo program to be a false sect, and being in communion with it is tantamount to being in communion with any other non-Catholic religion.  It is heresy.  Attending their services is a danger to the faith, and no man, no matter what color his buttons, can demand this of a faithful Catholic.

    2) There is the question of whether the Novus Ordo hierarchy even has authority in the first place.  Different theories exist, but suffice to say, not all traditional Catholics are satisfied that the man most would regard as the local bishop is actually the local bishop, or that the man most regard as pope is the actual pope.  If they don't have the authority in the first place, then the entire issue is a non sequitur.

    This sermon shows the precise problem with the FSSP and the rest of the indult group, and that is that they ultimately view the crisis in the Church as something cosmetic.  If Fr. Anonymous regarded the Novus Ordo as illicit and scandalous, he would not be making this sermon.  As such, he regards it to be simply the 'ordinary form.'  Oh, he may (only in private, of course) tell you that there is something inherently 'better' about the Latin Mass, but he doesn't actually believe that-- because the consequences that follow from the premise require him to condemn the Novus Ordo, which he won't.

    And, of course, the comparison that he uses is very poor.  Joan of Arc surrendered to a mock trial the same way that Our Lord Jesus Christ did.  She submitted to a holy and pious end, even if the means which were used upon her were insidious, just as they were in the case of Our Lord.  She did not acquiesce to a sinful demand, she let the charlatans have their day and suffered in the name of Jesus Christ.  This is pleasing to God.  Attending an ecuмenical worship service is not.  

    You could use the same logic to say that God shouldn't have been displeased with Cain's sacrifice.  "I mean, c'mon, he submitted to authority!"  He did.  He offered a sacrifice.  But the nature of it was repulsive, just as the nature of what a Catholic does when submitting to the Novus Ordo is repulsive.

    Here is a very informative article on Savonarola written by John Lane: http://sedevacantist.com/savonarola.html
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline jhfromsf68

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    « Reply #4 on: August 31, 2013, 02:06:16 AM »
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  • Thank you for your replies. If you would of listened to the whole sermon it gets worse  :really-mad2: I won't go into detail but it seems to me that this priest knows there is wide spread heresy in the church today and the hierarchy has been hit hard by liberalism and modernism and he has created his own theology to help deal with it. What do you do when you're in a church filled with  heresy ? His answer is you stay in that church and obey its heretical leaders. The SSPX believes in the recognize and resist position and the sedevacantists believe the Pope and the bishops have lost their office through heresy and lead a false church . Sometimes I get confused about what position to embrace . How important is it for someone to come to a conclusion about the Papacy.  Will it have a negative impact on your spiritual growth if you remain agnostic on the question of rather or not we have a real pope

    James


    Offline poche

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    « Reply #5 on: August 31, 2013, 02:55:41 AM »
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  • You owe obedience to all legitimate authority unless they require that you do something that violates your conscience.

    Offline TKGS

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    « Reply #6 on: August 31, 2013, 07:02:52 AM »
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  • Quote from: poche
    You owe obedience to all legitimate authority unless they require that you do something that violates your conscience.


    But only if your conscience is properly formed.

    One of the fundamental flaws of Protestantism, and thus of the Conciliar sect, is that individual conscience trumps objective morality.