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Author Topic: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!  (Read 47057 times)

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Online Ladislaus

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Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
« Reply #585 on: November 21, 2019, 11:43:03 AM »
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  • At risk of reviving this thread, Stubborn on a different thread declared that even if Bergoglio were to publicly declare that he had joined the Church of Satan, he would remain the legitimate pope and that there was "nothing that anyone could do about it".

    In all your readings, either PC2 or DP, have you found any support for this position?

    Should this now be added as a SIXTH OPINION in St. Robert's list?

    Offline Don Paolo

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #586 on: November 21, 2019, 12:09:15 PM »
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  • Salza & Siscoe say "it can be argued" that a pope who openly left the Church with a clear cut act of schism would automatically cease to be pope; while at the same time they insist unequivocally that loss of office is a "vindictive penalty", which requires a declared sentence for the loss of office to take place. Thus, it is clear that they are of the latter position, which is founded on the erroneous opinion that loss of office is a penalty.


    Offline Don Paolo

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #587 on: December 16, 2019, 04:27:17 PM »
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  • Here is the latest Salza/Siscoe fraud: in their post on the trueorfalsepope website, "FR. KRAMER'S ERROR CONCERNING "THE UNFAILING FAITH OF PETER", Salza and Siscoe pontificate: 


    <The Church has never taught that Christ’s promise to St. Peter that his "faith will fail not," means a successor of St. Peter is unable to fall into personal heresy and lose the faith.  On the contrary, theologians have always distinguished between two distinct privileges that St. Peter receive – one that prevented him from falling into personal heresy, and another that prevented him from erring when he taught ex cathedra – and they have consistently taught that the second privilege is what was passed on to Peter’s successors. For example, in De Romano Pontifice (bk 4, ch. 2), Bellarmine wrote:
    Bellarmine: “… the promise of the Lord in Luke XXII, as we find it in the Greek: ‘Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has asked for you that he might sift you like wheat, yet I have prayed for thee that thy faith would not fail…’ (...)  the true exposition is that the Lord asked for two privileges for Peter. One, that he could not ever lose the true faith insofar as he was tempted by the Devil (…) The second privilege is that he, ‘as Pope’ [i.e., teaching ex cathedra], could never teach something against the faith, or that there would never be found one in his See who would teach against the true faith.  From these privileges, we see that the first did not remain to his successors, but the second without a doubt did.”>

    By leaving out one word, fortasse, (Eng. possibly) in their translation, Salza & Siscoe have totally falsified Bellarmine's meaning: "Ex quibus privilegiis, primum fortasse non manavit ad posteros : at secundum sine dubio manavit ad posteros , sive successors." Thus, the true text of Bellarmine reads: "From these privileges, we see that the first possibly did not extend to his successors, but the second without a doubt did." They also mistranslated the word manavit as "remain", as if it were the perfect tense of maneo , manere, which it is not, but is the perfect tense of mano , manare (to flow or extend)


    Offline Don Paolo

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #588 on: December 16, 2019, 04:59:23 PM »
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  • Salza & Siscoe also got the chapter wrong: It was not chapter 2 but chapter 3 that they quoted.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #589 on: December 16, 2019, 05:17:28 PM »
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  • By leaving out one word, fortasse, (Eng. possibly) in their translation, Salza & Siscoe have totally falsified Bellarmine's meaning: 

    Agreed ... completely different meaning.


    Offline PaxChristi2

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #590 on: December 16, 2019, 05:53:25 PM »
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  • Here is the latest Salza/Siscoe fraud: in their post on the trueorfalsepope website, "FR. KRAMER'S ERROR CONCERNING "THE UNFAILING FAITH OF PETER", Salza and Siscoe pontificate:


    <The Church has never taught that Christ’s promise to St. Peter that his "faith will fail not," means a successor of St. Peter is unable to fall into personal heresy and lose the faith.  On the contrary, theologians have always distinguished between two distinct privileges that St. Peter receive – one that prevented him from falling into personal heresy, and another that prevented him from erring when he taught ex cathedra – and they have consistently taught that the second privilege is what was passed on to Peter’s successors. For example, in De Romano Pontifice (bk 4, ch. 2), Bellarmine wrote:
    Bellarmine: “… the promise of the Lord in Luke XXII, as we find it in the Greek: ‘Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has asked for you that he might sift you like wheat, yet I have prayed for thee that thy faith would not fail…’ (...)  the true exposition is that the Lord asked for two privileges for Peter. One, that he could not ever lose the true faith insofar as he was tempted by the Devil (…) The second privilege is that he, ‘as Pope’ [i.e., teaching ex cathedra], could never teach something against the faith, or that there would never be found one in his See who would teach against the true faith.  From these privileges, we see that the first did not remain to his successors, but the second without a doubt did.”>

    By leaving out one word, fortasse, (Eng. possibly) in their translation, Salza & Siscoe have totally falsified Bellarmine's meaning:
    That is Ryan Grant's translation.  If you have a problem with it, take it up with him.
     
    But let's not forget Fr. Kramer's entirely fake quotation which he used to justify his rejection of moral catholicity of fact.  
     
    Here's the fake quote allegedly from St. Athanasius that Fr. Kramer posted on Facebook. "“Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones that are the true Church of Christ.” -Coll. Selecta SS.Eccl.Patrum, Caillau and Guillou, Vol. 32, pp. 411-14.”(scanned copy here)
     
    Here's a link to the book he referenced as his source .  The quote is nowhere to be found.


     

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #591 on: December 16, 2019, 06:05:13 PM »
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  •  :popcorn:
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline PaxChristi2

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #592 on: December 16, 2019, 06:05:51 PM »
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  • Let's compare the quote provided by PaxChristi2 (Siscoe) with the same quote provided by Don Paolo (without any the ellipses):


    Here's two.  I posted the first one previously.  It is from the former rector of the Gregorian, who not only taught canon law for most of his adult life, but is one of the relatively few that has studied the past 1000 years of canonical tradition on the subject.
     
    Quote
    Father Ghirlanda, S.J., (2013):  “The vacancy of the Roman See occurs in case of the cessation of the office on the part of the Roman Pontiff, which happens for four reasons: 1) Death, 2) Sure and perpetual insanity or complete mental infirmity; 3) Notorious apostasy, heresy, schism; 4) Resignation.  In the first case, the Apostolic See is vacant from the moment of death of the Roman Pontiff; in the second and in the third from the moment of the declaration on the part of the cardinals; in the fourth from the moment of the renunciation." (…) There is the case, admitted by doctrine, of notorious apostasy, heresy and schism, into which the Roman Pontiff could fall, but as a ‘private doctor,’ that does not demand the assent of the faithful (…) However, in such cases, because ‘the first see is judged by no one’ (Canon 1404) no one could depose the Roman Pontiff, but only a declaration of the fact would be had, which would have to be done by the Cardinals, at least of those present in Rome.” ("La Civiltà Cattolica" March, 2,  2013)
     
    The Church judges and declares the fact, and at that "moment" the See becomes vacant.

     versus

    It is being claimed by some that the Canon Law professor and former rector of the Pontifical Gregorian University, Fr. Giancarlo Ghirlanda SJ, says that a notorious heretic pope would not cease to be pope until he is declared a heretic by the cardinals. That is not his position. His position on the question is identical to my own:
     
     Cessation from the office of the Roman Pontiff
     
     Excerpt from Quaderno n. 3905 del 2 marzo 2013 de "La Civiltà Cattolica", pp. 445-462.
     
     
    Then, if the Roman Pontiff did not express what is already contained in the Church, he would no longer be in communion with the whole Church, and therefore with the other Bishops, successors of the Apostles. The communion of the Roman Pontiff with the Church and with the Bishops, according to Vatican I (3), cannot be proven by the consent of the Church and the Bishops, as it would no longer be a full and supreme power freely exercised (c. 331; "Nota Explicativa Praevia" 4). The criterion then is the protection of ecclesial communion itself. There where this no longer existed on the part of the Pope, he would no longer have any power, because ipso iure would fall from his primatial office. This is the case, admitted in doctrine, of the notorious apostasy, heresy and schism, in which the Roman Pontiff could fall, but as a "private doctor", who does not commit the assent of the faithful, because by faith in the personal infallibility that the Roman Pontiff has in the performance of his office, and therefore in the assistance of the Holy Spirit, we must say that he cannot make heretical statements wanting to commit his primatial authority, because, if he did so, he would fall ipso jure from his office. However in such cases, since "the first seat is not judged by anyone" (c. 1404), no one could depose the Roman Pontiff, but there would only be a declaration of the fact, which should be on the part of the Cardinals, at least of those present in Rome. This eventuality, however, although foreseen in the doctrine, is considered totally improbable by intervention of the Divine Providence in favor of the Church (4).
     FOOTNOTES 3. Constitution, Pastor Aeternus, chapter 4, Denzinger-Schonmetzer 3074. 4. Cf. F. J. Wernz. P. Vida., “Ius canonicuм”, tome II, “De Personis”, Rome, 1933, 517 seqq.

     Don Paolo even gives us a link to the entire text: 
    http://chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/articolo/1350455.html
     
     That's some crafty editing by PaxChristi2 (Siscoe).  I wonder how he sleeps at night? 


    Fr. Kramer conveniently left off the part where Fr. Ghirlanda said when the Papal See would become vacant in the event of a Pope falling into notorious heresy.

    The vacancy of the Roman See occurs in case of the cessation of the office on the part of the Roman Pontiff, which happens for four reasons: 1) Death, 2) Sure and perpetual insanity or complete mental infirmity; 3) Notorious apostasy, heresy, schism; 4) Resignation.  In the first case, the Apostolic See is vacant from the moment of death of the Roman Pontiff; in the second and in the third from the moment of the declaration on the part of the cardinals; in the fourth from the moment of the renunciation.  

    "As regards death ... and perpetual madness or total mental illness. ... Then, if the Roman Pontiff did not express what is already contained in the Church, it would no longer be in communion with the whole Church, and therefore with the other Bishops, successors of the Apostles. The communion of the Roman Pontiff with the Church and with the Bishops, according to Vatican I (3), cannot be proven by the consent of the Church and the Bishops, as it would no longer be a full and supreme power freely exercised (c. 331; "Note Explicativa Praevia" 4). The criterion then is the protection of ecclesial communion itself. There where this no longer existed on the part of the Pope, he would no longer have any power, because ipso iure would lapse from his primatial office. This is the case, admitted in doctrine, of the notorious apostasy, heresy and schism, in which the Roman Pontiff could fall, but as a "private doctor", that does not engage the assent of the faithful, because by faith in the personal infallibility that the Roman Pontiff has in the performance of his office, and therefore in the assistance of the Holy Spirit, we must say that he cannot make heretical statements wanting to commit his authority primatial, because, if it did so, it would fall ipso iure from his office. However in such cases, since "the first seat is not judged by anyone" (c. 1404), no one could depose the Roman Pontiff, but there would only be a declaration of the fact, which should be on the part of the Cardinals, at least of those present in Rome. This eventuality, however, although foreseen in the doctrine, is considered totally improbable by intervention of the Divine Providence in favor of the Church (4).”  http://chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/articolo/1350455.html?refresh_ce

     
    The entire quotation in context confirms exactly what I wrote on November 13:  "The Church judges and declares the fact, and at that "moment" the See becomes vacant."


    Offline PaxChristi2

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #593 on: December 16, 2019, 06:23:14 PM »
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  • At risk of reviving this thread, Stubborn on a different thread declared that even if Bergoglio were to publicly declare that he had joined the Church of Satan, he would remain the legitimate pope and that there was "nothing that anyone could do about it".

    In all your readings, either PC2 or DP, have you found any support for this position?

    Bouix taught that a Pope who fell into heresy would remain Pope and could not be removed.  

    Dr. Mirus mentions three other theologians who held the same position. Raphael de Pornaxio, in Tractatus M.R. De Potestate, Chapter XIX.  Cardinal Casanova, in Quod Concilium Generale non habet iudicare Papam, f. 179, and Pasquali, in De Potestate, Book III, Art. X.  Bishop Athanasius Schneider apparently holds the same position.

    Quote
    Should this now be added as a SIXTH OPINION in St. Robert's list?

    No, it's the Third Opinion listed by Bellarmine.

    “The Third opinion is to the extreme, that the Pope is not and cannot be deposed either by secret or manifest heresy. Turrecremata in the aforementioned citation relates and refutes this opinion, and rightly so, for it is exceedingly improbable. Firstly, that a heretical Pope can be judged is expressly held in the Canon, Si Papa, dist. 40, and with Innocent. And what is more, in the Fourth Council of Constantinople, Act 7, the acts of the Roman Council under Hadrian are recited, and in those it was contained that Pope Honorius appeared to be legally anathematized, because he had been convicted of heresy (quia de haeresi fuerat convictus), the only reason where it is lawful for inferiors to judge superiors. Here the fact must be remarked upon that, although it is probable that Honorius was not a heretic, and that Pope Hadrian II was deceived by corrupted copies of the Sixth Council, which falsely reckoned Honorius was a heretic, we still cannot deny that Hadrian, with the Roman Council, and the whole Eighth Synod sensed that in the case of heresy, a Roman Pontiff can be judged. Add, that it would be the most miserable condition of the Church, if she should be compelled to recognize a wolf, manifestly prowling, for a shepherd." (Bellarmine De Romano Pontifice, bk, 2, ch. 30).






    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #594 on: December 16, 2019, 06:42:23 PM »
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  • Bouix taught that a Pope who fell into heresy would remain Pope and could not be removed.  

    Dr. Mirus mentions three other theologians who held the same position. Raphael de Pornaxio, in Tractatus M.R. De Potestate, Chapter XIX.  Cardinal Casanova, in Quod Concilium Generale non habet iudicare Papam, f. 179, and Pasquali, in De Potestate, Book III, Art. X.  Bishop Athanasius Schneider apparently holds the same position.

    No, it's the Third Opinion listed by Bellarmine.

    “The Third opinion is to the extreme, that the Pope is not and cannot be deposed either by secret or manifest heresy. Turrecremata in the aforementioned citation relates and refutes this opinion, and rightly so, for it is exceedingly improbable. Firstly, that a heretical Pope can be judged is expressly held in the Canon, Si Papa, dist. 40, and with Innocent. And what is more, in the Fourth Council of Constantinople, Act 7, the acts of the Roman Council under Hadrian are recited, and in those it was contained that Pope Honorius appeared to be legally anathematized, because he had been convicted of heresy (quia de haeresi fuerat convictus), the only reason where it is lawful for inferiors to judge superiors. Here the fact must be remarked upon that, although it is probable that Honorius was not a heretic, and that Pope Hadrian II was deceived by corrupted copies of the Sixth Council, which falsely reckoned Honorius was a heretic, we still cannot deny that Hadrian, with the Roman Council, and the whole Eighth Synod sensed that in the case of heresy, a Roman Pontiff can be judged. Add, that it would be the most miserable condition of the Church, if she should be compelled to recognize a wolf, manifestly prowling, for a shepherd." (Bellarmine De Romano Pontifice, bk, 2, ch. 30).

    Thank you.  I wasn't referring to public heresy ... but public apostasy.  "I, Bergoglio, declare that I have left the Catholic Church and have joined the Church of Satan."  I consider this something rather distinct from simple heresy.  I think that infidels are in a different category than mere heretics.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #595 on: December 16, 2019, 06:50:00 PM »
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  • That is Ryan Grant's translation.  If you have a problem with it, take it up with him.

    Well, as a scholar, you should disavow this particular translation, then, if it's faulty.  If the word fortasse does appear in the original, then you should stop citing this translation and find another one (or render your own).  You cannot draw a conclusion from a faulty translation.


    Offline Don Paolo

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #596 on: December 16, 2019, 07:08:25 PM »
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  • "PaxChristi2", just like JOHN SALZA, proves himself again a BOLD-FACED LIAR:  "But let's not forget Fr. Kramer's entirely fake quotation which he used to justify his rejection of moral catholicity of fact."

    Lie no. 1: "Fr. Kramer's entirely fake quotation". Here "PaxChristi2" (or is that John Salza) insinuates that I fabricated the quotation; while in reality it was not "my" quotation at all, but it was a passage attributed to St. Athanasius which I found in an SSPX publication and quoted in my writings.
    Lie no. 2: "which he used to justify his rejection of moral catholicity of fact." This is a deliberate, premeditated lie. I have explained the doctrine of moral catholicity repeatedly ASTHE CHURCH TEACHES IT; and not the twisted perversion of that doctrine that John Salza and Robert Siscoe propagate. 
         Furthermore, one only needs to look in the dictionary to find the meaning of the word "fortasse". Bellarmine clearly says in the quoted text that the privilege possibly did not extend to St. Peter's successors. He did not say that it did not extend to them, because he himself believed that it probably did extend to them, as he explained in his commentary on opinion no. 1. It is quite obvious that "PaxChristi2" is nothing but a propagandist who displays a pathological contempt for the truth.

    Offline Don Paolo

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #597 on: December 16, 2019, 07:19:41 PM »
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  • I took the Bellarmine quote from the Editio Prima Romana (1832), p. 709.

    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #598 on: December 16, 2019, 07:44:07 PM »
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  • Quote
    Thus, the true text of Bellarmine reads: "From these privileges, we see that the first possibly did not extend to his successors, but the second without a doubt did."
    Ok, yes, I agree the missing word does change the meaning, but it's not a huge change.  The re-introduction of the word "possibly" simply means that it's +Bellarmine's OPINION than a "non-failing faith" would remain in St Peter's successors.  All this goes back to the age-old debate on if a pope can become a heretic.  +Bellarmine argued both sides but did admit it was possible for a pope to become a heretic, so his use of "possibly" just confirms his view.  This is not groundbreaking.

    Offline PaxChristi2

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #599 on: December 16, 2019, 08:04:20 PM »
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  • Lie no. 2: "which he used to justify his rejection of moral catholicity of fact." This is a deliberate, premeditated lie. I have explained the doctrine of moral catholicity repeatedly AS THE CHURCH TEACHES IT; and not the twisted perversion of that doctrine that John Salza and Robert Siscoe propagate.
    Moral Catholicity de facto "as the Church teaches is" means the Church will always possess a large number of people from many different nation.
     
    Van Noort: "To satisfy the requirements of moral catholicity in fact – a quality belonging to Christ’s Church perpetually and necessarily – we stated there was required: 'a great number of men from many different nations.' … Such diffusion, obviously, cannot be had without a really large number of adherents." (Van Noort, Christ's Church, pp. 146-146"

    Salaverri: "Catholicity in the strict sense is the vast extension of one Church throughout the world, with a conspicuous multitude of members.  (…) Catholicity of right is the power, or right and duty, divinely given to the Church of gathering to herself all men from all parts of the world.  Catholicity of fact is an actual great number of Church members to be found in every part of the world. With the Church, we hold as a matter of Catholic faith (de fide catholica) that the Church has a full and perfect catholicity of right and a true moral catholicity of fact (...)  Proof of Catholicity of Fact: — Catholicity of fact is an actual great number of Church members, morally ubiquitous, simultaneous, and perpetual.  But God has attested that such a great number of members belongs to the Church.  Therefore the Church must be catholic with a catholicity of fact." (Salaverri, S. J., On the Church of Christ, 3rd ed., 1955, bk 3, ch 3, art 2.)
     
    Cardinal Billot: The Church of Christ is essentially catholic with a catholicity of right (juris), that is, by the universality of her destination and the mission that she has received from her Founder.  Catholicity of fact, which follows from this as a necessary property, consists in two things: first, in a permanent and simultaneous diffusion throughout the world, by which it comes to pass that the true Church always retains in her bosom an enormous (ingentem) number of faithful from a plurality of nations; secondly, in the successive growth by which she must propagate herself more and more until the end of the world, so that she extends throughout all places of the earth without exception and encompasses all nationalities of men. (…) once that short space of time had elapsed during which it was necessary, by the command of Christ himself, that the dissemination of the Word be confined to Judea and Samaria, catholicity of fact, consisting in the simultaneous and constant extension of the Church throughout the entire known world, and among the inhabitants thereof, became an inseparable character of the true Church of Christ." (De Ecclesia Christibook. 1, part 1, Thesis VI).
     
    Below is the errant ecclesiology of Fr. Kramer that he cited the fake "quote" from St. Athanasius to defend:
     
    Fr. Kramer: "Salza & Siscoe take issue with my entirely orthodox comment that, 'The visible entity will be APOSTATE. The true Church will be a remnant in hiding. The Church will be briefly INVISIBLE, as the Fathers teach.' According to their grotesquely distorted and fundamentalistic notion of the Church, that which has been clearly foretold in scripture and expounded by the Fathers and by ecclesiastical writers through the ages of Catholicism, constitutes a denial of the indefectibility visibility of the Church. However… it is Salza & Siscoe who deny Catholic doctrine by maintaining that the Church will not be reduced to a small number...”