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Author Topic: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!  (Read 47113 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
« Reply #570 on: November 18, 2019, 06:40:29 AM »
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  • Stubborn speaks quite ignorantly when he says, "But it *is* a question of judging or deposing an actual pope." When it is certain who the pope is, then it would be a case of judging an actual pope; but when positive doubt makes it impossible to judge that there is a certain pope, or that the putative pope is a certain pope, then the claimant or claimants become dubious popes.
    You got one thing right - I'm ignorant. While you were out earning your NO theology degree, I was already serving the True Mass for 20 years in basements and driving displaced priests all over to other basements, living rooms, etc. so others could receive the Mass and sacraments. So yes, I did not get your education, yet I am quite content, even thankful to have not done so.
     
    On with reality.....The Church *is* certain of who the pope is, just because a relatively few reject, or positively doubt him as pope does not change his legitimacy. Even if the reverse were true and only a relatively few accepted him as pope, that would still not change his legitimacy. It works like this: the cardinals elected him, he accepted his election, he is the pope. It works that way by design and unless that process changes, that's the way it is.

    I will admit that thanks to the constant spreading of doubt and illegitimacy by a few, including priests, the idea has gained more followers, but even should the spreading of this idea, spread as if it is an authentic teaching of the Church, gained several billion followers, that still would not change his legitimacy.



    Quote
      What is meant by "The Church" is not an ambiguous entity, but the term has a precise comprehension in ecclesiastical usage, and is explained by Bellarmine........When the whole Church (i.e. the faithful and their pastors) universally and peacefully accords unanimous acceptance to the one judged to be the valid pope by the council, the validity of that one's pontificate becomes a dogmatic fact.

    I disagree with this opinion, my opinion is that it is a dogmatic fact that he is the pope because he was legitimately elected and accepted his election. The unanimous opinion of the whole Church does not change his legitimacy, nor does the judgement of "the council" - who may not judge him to begin with. 


    Quote
    The reason why a council would have authority in such a case when there is only a doubtful pope, or it is not certain who is the pope, is explained by Gregory XVI: «In the times of the antipopes, as well as of the dead Pope, the form of the government ordained by Christ does not remain obscure, even in a case where there is founded doubt, so that it is not clear who should be venerated for Pope, yes in the case of sede vacante it happens in the Church what happens in different monarchies, in which in time of interregnum the government resides in some senate; as practiced also in the ancient Roman empire, in which the Roman senate commanded in time of interregnum; so in the mean while in those cases the government of the Church is aristocratic. But who does not know that this cannot be its natural state? Who can recognize him from the same dilligence that the Church gave to elect her head, suffering ill from remaining headless for a long time?»  [Il trionfo della santa sede e della chiesa contro gli assatti dei novatori, p. 29] All of these authors agree that a certain pope can never be judged, and that if it were permitted by God that the pope become a public heretic, he would become an incapable subject of the papacy.
    The first part does not apply because unlike 1000 years ago, news from the Vatican of habamus papem reaches almost the whole world in minutes.

    Beyond that, what he is saying is that while this cannot be her natural state, the Church does not cease to function during an interregnum. He also states that even a heretic pope cannot be judged, but that he becomes an incapable subject of the papacy.   
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Don Paolo

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #571 on: November 19, 2019, 07:42:22 AM »
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  • It is being claimed by some that the Canon Law professor and former rector of the Pontifical Gregorian University, Fr. Giancarlo Ghirlanda SJ, says that a notorious heretic pope would not cease to be pope until he is declared a heretic by the cardinals. That is not his position. His position on the question is identical to my own:

    Cessation from the office of the Roman Pontiff

    Excerpt from Quaderno n. 3905 del 2 marzo 2013 de "La Civiltà Cattolica", pp. 445-462. 

    Then, if the Roman Pontiff did not express what is already contained in the Church, he would no longer be in communion with the whole Church, and therefore with the other Bishops, successors of the Apostles. The communion of the Roman Pontiff with the Church and with the Bishops, according to Vatican I (3), cannot be proven by the consent of the Church and the Bishops, as it would no longer be a full and supreme power freely exercised (c. 331; "Nota Explicativa Praevia" 4). The criterion then is the protection of ecclesial communion itself. There where this no longer existed on the part of the Pope, he would no longer have any power, because ipso iure would fall from his primatial office. This is the case, admitted in doctrine, of the notorious apostasy, heresy and schism, in which the Roman Pontiff could fall, but as a "private doctor", who does not commit the assent of the faithful, because by faith in the personal infallibility that the Roman Pontiff has in the performance of his office, and therefore in the assistance of the Holy Spirit, we must say that he cannot make heretical statements wanting to commit his primatial authority, because, if he did so, he would fall ipso jure from his office. However in such cases, since "the first seat is not judged by anyone" (c. 1404), no one could depose the Roman Pontiff, but there would only be a declaration of the fact, which should be on the part of the Cardinals, at least of those present in Rome. This eventuality, however, although foreseen in the doctrine, is considered totally improbable by intervention of the Divine Providence in favor of the Church (4).
    FOOTNOTES 3. Constitution, Pastor Aeternus, chapter 4, Denzinger-Schonmetzer 3074. 4. Cf. F. J. Wernz. P. Vida., “Ius canonicuм”, tome II, “De Personis”, Rome, 1933, 517 seqq. 

    Allora, se il Romano Pontefice non esprimesse quello che già è contenuto nella Chiesa, non sarebbe più in comunione con tutta la Chiesa, e quindi con gli altri Vescovi, successori degli Apostoli. La comunione del Romano Pontefice con la Chiesa e con i Vescovi, secondo il Vaticano I (3), non può essere comprovata dal consenso della Chiesa e dei Vescovi, in quanto non sarebbe più una potestà piena e suprema liberamente esercitata (c. 331; "Nota Explicativa Praevia" 4). Il criterio allora è la tutela della stessa comunione ecclesiale. Lì dove questa non ci fosse più da parte del Papa, egli non avrebbe più alcuna potestà, perché ipso iure decadrebbe dal suo ufficio primaziale. È il caso, ammesso in dottrina, della notoria apostasia, eresia e scisma, nella quale il Romano Pontefice potrebbe cadere, ma come «dottore privato», che non impegna l’assenso dei fedeli, perché per fede nell’infallibilità personale che il Romano Pontefice ha nello svolgimento del suo ufficio, e quindi nell’assistenza dello Spirito Santo, dobbiamo dire che egli non può fare affermazioni eretiche volendo impegnare la sua autorità primaziale, perché, se così facesse, decadrebbe ipso iure dal suo ufficio. Comunque in tali casi, poiché «la prima sede non è giudicata da nessuno» (c. 1404), nessuno potrebbe deporre il Romano Pontefice, ma si avrebbe solo una dichiarazione del fatto, che dovrebbe essere da parte dei Cardinali, almeno di quelli presenti a Roma. Tale eventualità, tuttavia, sebbene prevista in dottrina, viene ritenuta totalmente improbabile per intervento della Divina Provvidenza a favore della Chiesa (4).


    Offline Don Paolo

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #572 on: November 19, 2019, 07:49:15 AM »
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  • Link to the full article by Fr. Gianfranco Ghirlanda SJ:


    http://chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/articolo/1350455.html

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #573 on: November 19, 2019, 08:12:19 AM »
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  • +Bellarmine is a Doctor of the Church for his vast learning, his teaching of doctrine and his defense of the Faith from heretics.  Theological speculation is none of these things.  
    Still haven't read the link, I see.

    Although there is more there in Pius XI's Declaration in 1931, right from its first lines Pius XI mentions that St Robert Bellarmine was a distinguished theologian.  Bottom line:  although one *can* disagree with him in certain theological matters, given the fact that the Church considered him a distinguished theologian while raising him to the altars, it probably isn't the most prudent thing to do.

    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #574 on: November 19, 2019, 09:48:01 PM »
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  • So the challenge to S & S: cite one canonist or theologian after Vatican I who discusses this specific issue of a heretic pope (as the attached canonists do) who says that a declaration would be necessary to remove a manifest public heretic who is pope (if it were to happen). Says it straight out without any nonsense, like the attached canonists say a declaration is not necessary.

    All I've see from S & S is leaps and arguments from sources not discussing the specific issue of a heretic pope and whether a declaration is necessary for loss of office in this specific case.

    Let's compare the quote provided by PaxChristi2 (Siscoe) with the same quote provided by Don Paolo (without any the ellipses):

    Here's two.  I posted the first one previously.  It is from the former rector of the Gregorian, who not only taught canon law for most of his adult life, but is one of the relatively few that has studied the past 1000 years of canonical tradition on the subject.

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    Father Ghirlanda, S.J., (2013):  “The vacancy of the Roman See occurs in case of the cessation of the office on the part of the Roman Pontiff, which happens for four reasons: 1) Death, 2) Sure and perpetual insanity or complete mental infirmity; 3) Notorious apostasy, heresy, schism; 4) Resignation.  In the first case, the Apostolic See is vacant from the moment of death of the Roman Pontiff; in the second and in the third from the moment of the declaration on the part of the cardinals; in the fourth from the moment of the renunciation." (…) There is the case, admitted by doctrine, of notorious apostasy, heresy and schism, into which the Roman Pontiff could fall, but as a ‘private doctor,’ that does not demand the assent of the faithful (…) However, in such cases, because ‘the first see is judged by no one’ (Canon 1404) no one could depose the Roman Pontiff, but only a declaration of the fact would be had, which would have to be done by the Cardinals, at least of those present in Rome.” ("La Civiltà Cattolica" March, 2,  2013)

    The Church judges and declares the fact, and at that "moment" the See becomes vacant.

    versus

    It is being claimed by some that the Canon Law professor and former rector of the Pontifical Gregorian University, Fr. Giancarlo Ghirlanda SJ, says that a notorious heretic pope would not cease to be pope until he is declared a heretic by the cardinals. That is not his position. His position on the question is identical to my own:

    Cessation from the office of the Roman Pontiff

    Excerpt from Quaderno n. 3905 del 2 marzo 2013 de "La Civiltà Cattolica", pp. 445-462.

    Then, if the Roman Pontiff did not express what is already contained in the Church, he would no longer be in communion with the whole Church, and therefore with the other Bishops, successors of the Apostles. The communion of the Roman Pontiff with the Church and with the Bishops, according to Vatican I (3), cannot be proven by the consent of the Church and the Bishops, as it would no longer be a full and supreme power freely exercised (c. 331; "Nota Explicativa Praevia" 4). The criterion then is the protection of ecclesial communion itself. There where this no longer existed on the part of the Pope, he would no longer have any power, because ipso iure would fall from his primatial office. This is the case, admitted in doctrine, of the notorious apostasy, heresy and schism, in which the Roman Pontiff could fall, but as a "private doctor", who does not commit the assent of the faithful, because by faith in the personal infallibility that the Roman Pontiff has in the performance of his office, and therefore in the assistance of the Holy Spirit, we must say that he cannot make heretical statements wanting to commit his primatial authority, because, if he did so, he would fall ipso jure from his office. However in such cases, since "the first seat is not judged by anyone" (c. 1404), no one could depose the Roman Pontiff, but there would only be a declaration of the fact, which should be on the part of the Cardinals, at least of those present in Rome. This eventuality, however, although foreseen in the doctrine, is considered totally improbable by intervention of the Divine Providence in favor of the Church (4).
    FOOTNOTES 3. Constitution, Pastor Aeternus, chapter 4, Denzinger-Schonmetzer 3074. 4. Cf. F. J. Wernz. P. Vida., “Ius canonicuм”, tome II, “De Personis”, Rome, 1933, 517 seqq.


    Don Paolo even gives us a link to the entire text: http://chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/articolo/1350455.html

    That's some crafty editing by PaxChristi2 (Siscoe).  I wonder how he sleeps at night?  It seems unlikely to me that a lawyer (even a tax lawyer) would get confused by the difference between when the crime took place and when the crime is declared to have happened.  The loss of office takes place from the time that the crime was committed, not when the cardinals or the Church declares the crime to have taken place.  That is clear from cuм Ex Apostolatus, from all the 20th century theologians who commented on this topic, from St. Robert Bellarmine, from Ghirlanda, etc.  Everyone from Vatican I on understands that the loss of office takes place at the moment the crime is committed except Salza and Siscoe, the amateur theologians hawking their fake theology.

    And here's PaxChristi's other "source" for his position:

    The next is from Elements of Ecclesiastical Law (1881):[/justify]

    Quote
    Elements of Ecclesiastical Law (1881): “Question: Is a Pope who falls into heresy deprived, ipso jure, of the Pontificate? “Answer: There are two opinions: one holds that he is by virtue of divine appointment, divested ipso facto, of the Pontificate; the other, that he is, jure divino, only removable.  Both opinions agree that he must at least be declared guilty of heresy by the church, i.e., by an ecuмenical council or the College of Cardinals.  The question is hypothetical rather than practical”. (Smith, Sebastian B. Elements of Ecclesiastical Law (revised third edition), New York: Benzinger Brothers, 1881)

    So even his second source doesn't support the S&S position.  Total fail.  I can't understand how a couple of guys who fancy themselves traditional Catholics can be so dishonest.  It makes me wonder if they aren't malevolent infiltrators.


    Offline Don Paolo

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #575 on: November 20, 2019, 04:56:34 AM »
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  •      All of the expert canonists and theologians who expound on the five opinions are unanimous in stating that the difference between Opinion No. 4 and No. 5 is that No. 4 requires a judgment to be made by the Church before the pope falls from office, whereas No. 5 holds that the fall from office is automatic, and takes place independently of and before any judgment is made. In order to support their erroneous opinion on this point, Salza & Siscoe in Chapter 11 of their book quote the ambiguously stated opinion of Fr. Sebastian Smith (Elements of Ecclesiastical Law, p. 210. 68 Ibid., Preface, p. xi.), who wrote in 1881, “Question: Is a Pope who falls into heresy deprived, ipso jure, of the Pontificate? Answer: There are two opinions: one holds that he is by virtue of divine appointment, divested ipso facto, of the Pontificate; the other, that he is, jure divino, only removable. Both opinions agree that he must at least be declared guilty of heresy by the Church - i.e., by an ecuмenical council or the College of Cardinals.” It is first to be pointed out that Fr. Smith states ambiguously that there are “two opinions” on the question (there have been five opinions, but only two which admit the removal of a manifest heretic pope); and he says, “Both opinions agree that he must at least be declared guilty of heresy by the Church”. This statement, “Both opinions agree that he must at least be declared guilty of heresy by the Church”, simply means that in the case of an ipso jure loss of office which takes place automatically even before the declaration and independently of it; and the case of jure divino “only removable” opinion, in which the loss of office is said to take place immediately upon the declaration: in both cases, a declaratory sentence would be required to enforce the removal and authorize the election of a new pope. Expressed in the manner that it is formulated, the statement can superficially be misinterpreted to mean, (in the manner that Salza & Siscoe opportunistically misinterpret it for their own purpose), that the declaration would be required in order for the loss of office to take place. As they do with so many authors (as will be shown later in this work), Salza & Siscoe twist the meaning of a passage to make it appear to say exactly the opposite from what a critical examination of the words demonstrates to be their authentic meaning. Smith is clearly referring to Opinion No. 5 when he says, “one holds that he is by virtue of divine appointment, divested ipso facto, of the Pontificate”; since he writes in answer to the question, “Is a Pope who falls into heresy deprived, ipso jure, of the Pontificate?” Now in Canon Law, the expression that one is deprived ipso jure means that it is automatic – it takes place ipso facto before any judgment is prounounced. This is exactly how the medieval Decretists employed the term in the earliest formulations of Opinion No. 5, and it is employed in exactly the same manner by the Council of Constance when it deposed Pedro de Luna “as a precautionary measure”, and declared that he had already fallen from every ecclesiastical dignity and had been severed from the body of the Church ipso jure before any judgment was pronounced. The term is again employed in exactly the same manner in the 1983 Code of Canon Law of Pope John Paul II. When Smith says of “the other”, i.e. “that he is, jure divino, only removable”, he is clearly speaking of Opinion No. 4 in its less radical formulation (Suárez), according to which the Church would deliberatively determine that the pope is a heretic, and upon the juridical declaration of guilt, the pope would immediately fall from office. If Smith had meant by, “Both opinions agree that he must at least be declared guilty of heresy by the Church”, that in both cases a declaration of guilt would be necessary for the fall from to take place; that would mean that there would not be two opinions on the question, but only one, namely, “that he is, jure divino, only removable”. Yet this absurd interpretation of the passage is exactly how it is understood by Salza & Siscoe in Chapter 11 of their book: «Fr. Smith expressly states that “both opinions agree” that he must at least be declared guilty of heresy by the Church. If he is not found guilty, he remains a true and valid Pope.” ». Then they state their non sequitur conclusion: «The teaching of Fr. Smith confirms John of St. Thomas’ understanding of Bellarmine and Suarez’s position, since he [John of St. Thomas] stated that “Bellarmine and Suarez” both held that a heretical Pope loses his office only if he is “declared incorrigible.” » In reality, what Fr. Smith’s teaching confirms is that John of St. Thomas failed to correctly understand Bellarmine’s exposition on the question; and that Salza & Siscoe have understood neither Bellarmine’s exposition on Opinion No. 5, nor have they understood the opinion as it has been elaborated by theologians and canonists for more than eight centuries. In the first of the “two opinions” in which the heretic pope would lose office ipso jure (automatically) the Church would possess the jurisdiction to declare the See vacant, in the manner that the Council of Constance declared “Benedict XIII” to have already lost all ecclesiastical dignity and to have severed himself from the body of the Church, thus removing the last remaining claimant to the papal throne, and juridically establishing the sede vacante. In the second of the “two opinions”, the Church would not be able to declare the pope guilty of heresy, because an official judgment of guilt of an individual pronounced by the Church absolutely requires jurisdiction to judge that person; but neither the cardinals, nor a synod, and not even a general council possess the jurisdiction to make such an official, juridical declaration – so any judgment a council would make would not be a public juridical act of the Church, but would be a non-juridic statement of churchmen utterly devoid of any force of law or juridical value whatsoever. This is the fatal flaw in all the variations of Opinion No. 4, which holds that a heretic pope does not lose his office until he is judged by the Church. John of St. Thomas, who held this opinion, admitted himself the problematic aspect of the opinion when he wrote: “Concerning the second point, namely by whose authority the declaration and deposition is to be made, there is dissent among theologians, and it does not appear by whom such a deposition is to be made, because it is an act of judgment, and jurisdiction, which can be exercised by no one over the pope.” Salza & Siscoe then carry the absurdity even further: « Because the “two opinions” agree that a heretical Pope “must at least be declared guilty of the crime of heresy by the Church,” there are actually three opinions to be noted, which, for the sake of simplicity and easy recall, could be classified as follows: 1) the “Jesuit” opinion (of Bellarmine/Suarez), 2) the “Dominican” opinion (of Cajetan/John of St. Thomas), and 3) the unanimous opinion. The Jesuit opinion is that a heretical Pope falls from office after the crime of heresy has been established by the Church. The Dominican opinion is that a heretical Pope falls from office only after the Church commands the faithful to avoid him. But the unanimous opinion is that “he must at least be declared guilty by the Church.” » The belief that there was a single “Jesuit opinion” is the result of an uncritical failure to distinguish between two of the oldest opinions on the question of the deposition or removal of a heretic pope. As Moynihan demonstrates , among the early Decretists there were those, who maintained that a heretic pope would remain in office until judged guilty of heresy by the Church; and others, mainly of the French school of canonists who advocated the opinion that a heretic pope would by his very heresy automatically lose office by himself, ipso jure. It was among the early Decretists that these opinions, enumerated by Bellarmine as No. 4 and No. 5 originated. Bellarmine argued in favour of the fifth opinion which held that a heretic pope would automatically fall from office ipso facto or (as the Decretists would say), ipso jure; while Suárez followed the fourth opinion, which held that the heretic would remain in office until judged guilty of heresy by the Church. By the late 19th Century, the fourth opinion had been universally abandoned; and since then, the fifth opinion (as will be shown below), has been the morally unanimous opinion among theologians who admit, at least hypothetically, that a pope can become a heretic. Salza & Siscoe have totally inverted the truth in this matter, hysterically claiming that those who follow what is now the virtually unanimous opinion among those theologians who admit at least as a hypothesis, that a pope can become a heretic, (No. 5), (in the manner that it is explained by all of the eminent scholars who have examined each of the five opinions), ‘nonsensically reject the unanimous opinion’ one cannot hold the Jesuit opinion (the Pope loses his office ipso facto), without also holding the unanimous opinion (the Pope must at least be declared guilty of the crime of heresy by the Church).” They then conclude against what has been established and is held with a unanimous consensus of scholars that the “rejection of [what is according to them] the unanimous opinion is clearly not the fruit of sound, scholarly research of the question, but rather a rash and superficial judgment based, in many cases, on snippets read on the internet”. (!) Bellarmine explained that the manifest heretic pope would cease “by himself” to be pope, a Christian, and a member of the Church; and “for which reason” (quare) having ceased to be pope, “he may be judged and punished by the Church.” It is unmistakably clear from the explicit wording of the text that Bellarmine is saying that the manifest heretic pope, completely by himself, i.e. by his own act of defection from the faith, “sine alia vi externa”, ceases to be pope, a Christian and a member of the Church; and precisely because he would cease to be pope, he, having fallen from office, could then be judged and punished by the Church. Ballerini, following Bellamine, is more explicit in saying that the heretic pope, upon manifesting his pertinacity, would have “abdicated the primacy and the pontificate”, ceasing automatically to be pope, without any judgment, but explains the pastoral reason why a declaratory sentence would need to be made. Pope Gregory XVI explicitly endorsed Ballerini’s opinion. A declaratory sentence is absolutely necessary not only for the pastoral reason given by Ballerini, (so that the faithful may be warned about the heretic), but more importantly, because unless the heretic intruder be visibly and juridically declared to have fallen from office and to have vacated the chair, a manifestly and certainly valid pope could not be elected and universally accepted by the whole Church for so long as the intruder is allowed to carry on with his imposture. As they do with the passage of Fr. Sebastian Smith, similarly Salza & Siscoe twist the words of Bellarmine and Ballerini, even falsifying the text of the latter (as is shown later in this work) to fit their own meaning. All three of these authors mentioned in the previous paragraph (Bellarmine, Ballerini and Gregory XVI), were following the ruling of the Council of Constance, which declared that Pedro de Luna had already lost all office and ecclesiastical dignity by himself, prior to his being judged by the Council. By the late 19th Century, Fr. Sydney Smith SJ (in 1895) testified that it had already become the common opinion that a manifestly heretical pope would cease automatically to be pope, and that in such a case the Cardinals, being duly informed, would only need to issue a declaratory sentence on the one who was no longer pope. (This is also the explicitly stated opinion of Cardinal Raymond Burke ). Thus, it would seem highly unlikely that Fr. Sebastian Smith would have been so ignorant as to mean by saying, “Both opinions agree that he must at least be declared guilty of heresy by the Church”, that both opinions held that the fall from office would only take place upon judgment by the Church, as Salza & Siscoe maintain. What his words clearly indicate, if one examines them critically, is that whether the pope would be “divested ipso facto, of the Pontificate” (Opinion No. 5), or, “that he is, jure divino, only removable” (Opinion No. 4), a declaratory sentence would be necessary in order to enforce the loss of office and facilitate the election of a new pope in the former case; and at least a declaratory sentence as opposed to penal judgment and deposition by a tribunal, would be necessary to effect the removal of the heretic pope from office in the latter. Thus, Smith uses the term “removable” in the same manner as it is used in By Bellarmine in his refutation of Opinion No. 2, rather than that a reigning pope could be juridically judged and deposed from office. What this shows, is that Sebastian Smith is testifying that in his day (1881), the classical position of Opinion No.4 formulated by Cajetan during the Reformation, which held in favour of a juridical deposition of a heretical pope, had already been universally abandoned, and was replaced by a less radical version of the opinion; which held, contrary to the vast majority who favoured Opinion No. 5, that a heretic pope would fall from office upon the issuance of a merely declaratory sentence after a merely deliberative inquiry. The flaw in this theory is that a mere declaration pronounced on actually reigning pontiff by his subjects would lack all jurisdiction, and would therefore not be an official judgment of the Church, because so long as he is pope, the pontiff, who is solemnly defined to be the supreme and final judge in all cases, is the only one who has the authority to judge his own case. Without jurisdiction to pronounce judgment on the pope, a council’s judgment would not be a judgment of the Church, but a mere opinion of men, who would invalidly presume to convene in a council and pronounce a judgment they are juridically incompetent to make. The belief that the Cardinals, or even an ecuмenical council would be competent to judge a pope juridically is a heresy that directly offends against the judicial supremacy and injudicability of the Roman Pontiff, solemnly defined in Pastor Æternus; against the repeated declarations of the popes teaching that the pope cannot be judgd by anyone, as well as against the solemn pronouncement of the Fifth Lateran Council that the pope has absolute authority over a council . Bellarmine refuted this opinion in his exposition on Opinion No. 4 demolishing the argument, by explaining that neither the bishops nor the cardinals have any power over a pope, and to pronounce official judgment on a pope is to exercise power of jurisdiction over a pope. Wernz and Vidal most conclusively refute and utterly demolish the theory that a council could even pronounce a merely declaratory sentence on a reigning pope: Finally there is the fifth view of Bellarmine which was expressed at the outset in the assertion [above] and which is rightly defended by Tanner and others as being more approved and more common. For he who is no longer a member of the body of the Church, that is, of the Church as a visible body, cannot be the head of the universal Church. But a pope who falls into public heresy would by that fact cease to be a member of the Church; therefore he would also, upon that fact, cease to be the head of Church. So, a publicly heretical pope, who by the mandate of Christ and of the Apostle should be avoided because of danger to the Church, must be deprived of his power, as nearly everyone admits. But he cannot be deprived of his power by a merely declaratory sentence. For every judicial sentence of privation supposes a superior jurisdiction over him against whom the sentence is laid. But a general council, in the opinion of adversaries, does not have a higher jurisdiction than does a heretical pope. For he, by their supposition, before the declaratory sentence of a general council, retains his papal jurisdiction; therefore a general council cannot pass a declaratory sentence by which a Roman Pontiff is actually deprived of his power; for that would be a sentence laid by an inferior against the true Roman Pontiff. In sum, it needs to be said clearly that a [publicly] heretical Roman Pontiff loses his power upon the very fact. Meanwhile a declaratory criminal sentence, although it is merely declaratory, should not be disregarded, for it brings it about, not that a pope is “judged” to be a heretic, but rather, that he is shown to have been found heretical, that is, a general council declares the fact of the crime by which a pope has separated himself from the Church and has lost his rank. Following the doctrine of Innocent III , who taught that the pope, as pope, cannot be judged; Bellarmine says in Book Four, Chapter Seven of De Romano Pontifice, “the Pope cannot be judged”, but only upon having fallen from office ”by himself” (he explains in Book Two Chapter Thirty) he could then be judged and punished by the Church. It suffices to say that if even a council may not judge a pope, then a fortiori neither can any other group or individual which would be less than a council, judge a pope, but could only declare in such a manner that he may be “shown to be already judged” (Innocent III), to have already fallen, to already have lost any office and all ecclesiastical dignity ipso jure (Council of Constance) to have “abdicated the primacy and the pontificate” (Ballerini), and to have “fallen from the pontificate by himself” (Gregory XVI). Ballerini states in the most explicit of terms that, a general council has no power to judge a pope, since the pope receives his power not from his electors or from the Church, but immediately from God; by which he is the Pontiff over the whole Church, and superior over general councils, and therefore is entirely removed from the jurisdiction of all others who are inferior to him, and precisely for this reason, the machinations of Basel against Eugenius IV ended up in open schism: « . . . contra certum Pontificium jus nulla vel generalis concilii potestas est: cuм ob idem jus non ab electoribus, nec ab Ecclesia, sed a Deo immediate tributum, verus Pontifex toti Ecclesiæ, & generalibus quoque synodis (ut probavimus) superior, ab aliorum omnium sibi inferiorum jurisdictione subtrahatur. Hac quidem de causa Basileensium molimina & gesta contra Eugenium IV. unicuм certumque Pontificem illegitima & inania nihil potuerunt ad ipsum deponendum, & in apertum schisma deflexerunt. » Ballerini’s formulation leaves absolutely no room for the sole exception for heresy theory that had been formulated by canonists since the time of the Decretists, according to which, a council would have the authority to depose a certain pope from office for the crime of heresy. On page 132 of the same work, Ballerini declares, «Ideo enim (ut antea probatum est) supra certum pontificem jus nullum est concilio etiam generali, quia verus Pontifex est, & primate fruitur, ob quem toti Ecclesiæ etiam collective sumptæ, & in concilio adunatæ jure divino superior est; nec inferiori in superiorem suum coactivum jus esse potest.» Peters attests to the fact that the opinion that a heretic pope would remain in office until even a merely declaratory sentence would effect his removal as a dispositive cause for his fall from office has been entirely abandoned in his article where he says, «I know of no author coming after Wernz who disputes this analysis [of Wernz and Vidal]. See, e.g., Ayrinhac, CONSTITUTION (1930) 33; Sipos, ENCHIRIDION (1954) 156; Regatillo, INSTITUTIONES I (1961) 299; Palazzini, DMC III (1966) 573; and Wrenn (2001) above. As for the lack of detailed canonical examination of the mechanics for assessing possible papal heresy, Cocchi, COMMENTARIUM II/2 (1931) n. 155, ascribes it to the fact that law provides for common cases and adapts for rarer; may I say again, heretical popes are about as rare as rare can be and yet still be. In sum, and while additional important points could be offered on this matter, in the view of modern canonists from Wernz to Wrenn, however remote is the possibility of a pope actually falling into heresy and however difficult it might be to determine whether a pope has so fallen, such a catastrophe, Deus vetet, would result in the loss of papal office. » Incredibly, Salza & Siscoe adamantly and delusionally insist that the common opinion today is that a manifest heretic pope would not fall from office until he is judged by the Church; and, according to them, the opinion which was originated by the Decretists of the early 1180s, namely, the Fifth Opinion which holds that a manifest heretic pope would automatically fall from office ipso facto by the act of formal heresy itself before any judgment by the Church, is nothing but an opinion of sedevacantists who do not understand Bellarmine! As I just quoted Peters, “I know of no author coming after Wernz who disputes this analysis [of Wernz and Vidal]”; yet the two armchair theologians – the tax lawyer and the businessman, who have no formal education in Canon Law or Theology presume to differ with the unanimous opinion of canonists and theologians on papal loss of office, and their learned understanding of Opinion No. 5. De Auctoritate Summi Pontificis” Disputatio III, Articulus II XVII De Depositione Papae & Seq. James M. Moynihan, STL, JCD; Papal Immunity and Liability in the Writings of the Medieval Canonists, Gregorian University Press, Roma 1961, Chapter Three. 2 "t has been generally held that, given the possibility of a personally heretical Pope, he would ipso facto cease to be Pope by ceasing to be a member of the Church. The Church in that case, as represented by the Cardinals or otherwise, could on due information of the fact pass a declaratory sentence on one who being no longer Pope was no longer its superior, and then take measures to remove him from the see in which he had become an intruder." (Dr. Littledale's Theory of the Disappearance of the Papacy - Sydney F. Smith S.J. Catholic Truth Society, London, 1896.) 3 “If a Pope would formally profess heresy he would cease, by that act, to be the Pope. It’s automatic. And so, that could happen. […] It would have to be members of the College of Cardinals [to declare him to be in heresy].” Interview with Catholic World Report, December 8 2016. 4 “. . . the Roman Pontiff alone, possessing as it were authority over all Councils, has full right and power of proclaiming Councils, or transferring and dissolving them” (The reference is provided below with the text of the full paragraph.) 5 Wernz-Vidal, IUS CANONIcuм II (1928), n. 453 6 «Qui autem judicat, dominus est» (I Cor. IV).” And again: “The Roman Pontiff has no superior but God. Who, therefore, should a pope ‘lose his savour’, could cast him out or trample him under foot”. 7 De Potestate Ecclesiastica. De casu Schismatis, quo duo vel plures se se gerant tamquam Pontifices; p. 130. 8 https://canonlawblog.wordpress.com/2016/12/16/a-canonical-primer-on-popes-and-heresy/ 9 Ibid. « Wrenn, writing in the CLSA NEW COMM (2001) at 1618 states: “Canon 1404 is not a statement of personal impeccability or inerrancy of the Holy Father. Should, indeed, the pope fall into heresy, it is understood that he would lose his office. To fall from Peter’s faith is to fall from his chair.” » An earlier edition of that same commentary says, “Communion becomes a real issue when it is threatened or even lost. This occurs especially through heresy, apostasy and schism. Classical canonists discussed the question whether a pope, in his private or personal opinions, could go into heresy, apostasy or schism.” 

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #576 on: November 20, 2019, 07:06:16 AM »
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  • Everyone from Vatican I on understands that the loss of office takes place at the moment the crime is committed except Salza and Siscoe, the amateur theologians hawking their fake theology.

    Who is "everyone?" Don't you mean just the sedevacantists?
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Don Paolo

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #577 on: November 20, 2019, 08:56:03 AM »
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  • Fraudulent Interpretation of Fr. Ghirlanda on Papal Loss of Office


     

    On May 28, 2018, “Ignatio” quotes Louie Verecchio – Mr. Verrecchio: “Has Michael Matt finally concluded the obvious; namely, that Jorge Mario Bergoglio has – after numerous admonishments from theologians, priests, bishops, and cardinals – plainly condemned himself by his notorious heresy” »

    “Ignatio” then comments – « What do you mean by numerous admonishments? Francis has received NO canonical warnings, or “solemn warnings,” which is the form of admonishment he must receive before he can be declared a heretic by the Church. »

    Response: Canonical admonitions are by definition given by a superior to a subject over whom the superior holds jurisdiction. Canonical admonitions are impossible in the case of a pope, because the pope has no superior. Loss of office for public defection from the Catholic faith occurs ipso jure under both Codes (i.e. 1917 and 1983). The canon statutes the loss of office solely on the basis of the fact of defection, without prescribing any warnings. The canon (194)* is in the administrative section of the Code; and it explicitly distinguishes between the simple loss of office ipso jure from penal deprivation of office, which is dealt with in the penal section of the Code. Canonical admonitions are prescribed in penal law only, before a penalty is inflicted sententia ferenda.

    * Can. 194 §1. The following are removed from an ecclesiastical office by the law itself (ipso jure): […] 2° a person who has publicly defected from the Catholic faith or from the communion of the Church; […] §2. The removal mentioned in nn. 2 and 3 can be enforced only if it is established by the declaration of a competent authority.

    “Ignatio” – « And even after receiving the required solemn warnings and refusing to amend, the papal office does not become vacant until the Church declares it so.
     –
     Father Gianfranco Ghirlanda, former rector of the Gregorian University, studied the past millennia of canonical tradition concerning the loss of papal office. Such an extensive study by a canonist of his caliber is quite rare, and hence his findings should carry great weight. This is what he wrote about the topic in an article published in 2013 by Civiltà Cattolica:
     –
     Fr. Gianfranco Ghirlanda: “The vacancy of the Roman See occurs in case of the cessation of the office on the part of the Roman Pontiff, which happens for four reasons: 1) Death, 2) Sure and perpetual insanity or complete mental infirmity; 3) Notorious apostasy, heresy, schism; 4) Resignation. In the first case, the Apostolic See is vacant from the moment of death of the Roman Pontiff; IN THE SECOND AND IN THE THIRD FROM THE MOMENT OF THE DECLARATION ON THE PART OF THE CARDINALS; in the fourth from the moment of the renunciation.”
     –
     He went on to explain that the Cardinals do not depose the pope, but only declared the fact of his heresy. It is “from the moment of the declaration on the part of the Cardinals” that the see becomes vacant, NOT BEFORE.
    »

    Response: The vacancy actually takes place in fact ipso facto, because the office is lost ipso jure. A little further down in the same article, Fr. Ghirlanda explains « The criterion then is the protection of ecclesial communion itself.  There where this no longer existed on the part of the Pope, he would no longer have any power, because ipso iure would fall from his primatial office.  This is the case, admitted in doctrine, of the notorious apostasy, heresy and schism, in which the Roman Pontiff could fall, but as a "private doctor", who does not commit the assent of the faithful, because by faith in the personal infallibility that the Roman  Pontiff has in the performance of his office, and therefore in the assistance of the Holy Spirit, we must say that he cannot make heretical statements wanting to commit his primatial authority, because, if he did so, he would fall ipso jure from his office.  However in such cases, since "the first seat is not judged by anyone" (c. 1404), no one could depose the Roman Pontiff, but there would only be a declaration of the fact, which should be on the part of the Cardinals, at least of those present  in Rome.  This eventuality, however, although foreseen in the doctrine, is considered totally improbable by intervention of the Divine Providence in favor of the Church (4). » Fr. Ghirlanda has explained that the loss of office is automatic (ipso jure); but the fact of the vacancy gains juridical recognition upon the issuance of a declaratory sentence of the cardinals; much as when a pope who dies in his sleep vacates the office at the moment of his death, but the juridical vacancy occurs only upon the recognition of the pope’s death by the cardinal camerlengo.

    “Ignatio” – « In the case of Francis, there have been no solemn warnings and no declaration from the Cardinals. Hence, he remains pope, as did Paul VI, John Paul II and Benedict XVI before him. »

    Response: The fact of defection from the faith being manifestly evident and public suffices by itself to provoke the ipso jure loss of office, as I have explained in my book: Thus, the only “exception” is not an exception at all, but only if a pope were to cease entirely by himself to be a member of the Church because of manifest heresy, Schism or apostasy, he would by that very act, publicly defect from communion with the Church, cease to be a member of the Church; and therefore, according to the prescription of Canon 194 §1. 2°[1] (Canon 188. 4° in the 1917 Code[2]); he would lose office automatically (ipso jure); and the loss of office would then be enforced juridically by a merely declaratory sentence (Canon 194 §2). On this point, the canon is absolutely clear and unequivocal: “Can. 194 §1. The following are removed from an ecclesiastical office by the law itself: […] 2° a person who has publicly defected from the Catholic faith or from the communion of the Church; […]§2. The removal mentioned in nn. 2 and 3 can be enforced only if it is established by the declaration of a competent authority.” In the commentary on the Code of Canon Law composed by the Canon Law faculty of the University of Navarre, it is explained: “In the 2nd and 3rd cases, the act of the ecclesiastical authority is declarative, and it is necessary, not to provoke the vacating of the right of the office, but so that the removal can legally be demanded (also for the purposes of 1381 § 2), and consequently the conferral of the office to a new officeholder can be carried out (cfr. C. 154).”[3] [CÓDIGO DE DERECHO CANÓNICO EDICIÓN BILINGÜE Y ANOTADA UNIVERSIDAD DE NAVARRA, FACULTAD DE DERECHO CANÓNICO, Sexta edición revisada y actualizada, p. 176.] Since the loss of office takes place ipso jure, it does not depend in any way on the subsequent declaration which merely enforces it; and for this reason, as the quoted canon of the 1917 Code explains, the actual loss of whatsoever office by tacit renunciation takes place ipso facto without any declaration (“Ob tacitam  renuntiationem  ab ipso iure admissam  quælibet officia vacant ipso facto et sine ulla  declaratione”). The Canon Law commentary of the Pontifical Faculty of Canon Law of the University of Salamanca explains that the sole necessary condition for such a loss of office to take place, is that the act be freely committed, and then the loss of office follows necessarily: “El hecho por el que se presupone la renuncia debe ser puesto voluntariamente, a tenor del canon 185; pero, cuмplida esta condición, la perdida del oficio se produce necesariamente.[4] [Miguelez – Alonso – Cabreros; CÓDIGO DE DERECHO CAONICO Y LEGISLACIÓN COMPLEMENTARIA, TEXTO LATINO Y VERSION CASTELLANA CON JURISPRUDENCIA Y COMENTARIOS POR LOS CATEDRÁTICOS DE TEXTO DEL CÓDIGO EN LA PONTIFICIA UNIVERSIDAD ECLESIÁSTICA DE SALAMANCA, Madrid, 1952, p. 78.] That the canon is applicable to all ecclesiastical offices is stated explicitly with the words, quælibet officia vacant ipso facto” – and therefore necessarily includes the office of the Supeme Pontiff. The Very Rev. H. A. Ayrinhac explained, in his General Legislation in the New Code of Canon Law, on Loss of Ecclesiastical Offices, that such loss of office (Canons 185-191) “applies to all offices, the lowest and the highest, not excepting the Supreme Pontificate.” (p. 346)



    [1] Can. 194 — § 1. Ipso iure ab ecclesiastico officio amovetur: […]2° qui a fide catholica aut a communione Ecclesiae publice defecerit ; […] § 2. Amotio, de qua in nn. 2 et 3, urgeri tantum potest, si de eadem auctoritatis competentis declaratione constet.
    Can. 194 §1. The following are removed from an ecclesiastical office by the law itself: […] 2° a person who has publicly defected from the Catholic faith or from the communion of the Church; […] §2. The removal mentioned in nn. 2 and 3 can be enforced only if it is established by the declaration of a competent authority.
    [2] Can. 188.  “Ob tacitam renuntiationem ab ipso iure admissam quaelibet officia vacant ipso facto et sine ulla declaratione, si clericus: […] 4° A fide catholica publice defecerit”.
    [3]Remoción ipso iure es la decretada por el propio derecho en los casos taxativamente determinados en el § 1. Todos ellos requieren, sin embargo, algún grado de intervención de la autoridad eclesiástica para que la remoción tenga plena eficacia jurídica. En el supuesto 1.º es preciso que se decrete la pérdida del estado clerical (cfr. cc. 290, 1336 § 1, 5.º) para que, como efecto reflejo, se produzca ipso iure la remoción del oficio. En los casos 2.º y 3.º, el acto de la autoridad eclesiástica es declarativo, y se hace necesario, no para provocar la vacación de derecho del oficio, sino para que pueda exigirse jurídicamente la remoción (también a los efectos del c. 1381 § 2), y consiguientemente pueda llevarse a cabo la colación del oficio a un nuevo titular (cfr. c. 154).” - CÓDIGO DE DERECHO CANÓNICO EDICIÓN BILINGÜE Y ANOTADA UNIVERSIDAD DE NAVARRA, FACULTAD DE DERECHO CANÓNICO, Sexta edición revisada y actualizada, p. 176.
    [4]Miguelez – Alonso – Cabreros, Op. cit. p. 78.


    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #578 on: November 20, 2019, 09:38:08 AM »
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  • Who is "everyone?" Don't you mean just the sedevacantists?
    Sede vacantists and conservative Novus Ordo folks (Ed Peters, Ghirlanda, Burke, etc) all accept the teaching of pre-V2 theologians on ipso facto loss of the papacy.  The only people who don't accept it are the R&R folks who also reject the Church's teaching on the infallibility of the magisterium.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #579 on: November 20, 2019, 09:59:38 AM »
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  • Sede vacantists and conservative Novus Ordo folks (Ed Peters, Ghirlanda, Burke, etc) all accept the teaching of pre-V2 theologians on ipso facto loss of the papacy.  The only people who don't accept it are the R&R folks who also reject the Church's teaching on the infallibility of the magisterium.

    ... if you don't count Cajetan and John of St. Thomas.

    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #580 on: November 20, 2019, 10:45:32 AM »
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  • ... if you don't count Cajetan and John of St. Thomas.
    Since Vatican I, Bellarmine's 5th opinion has been held universally among all Catholic theologians.  Even now, the only people who reject it are the R&R folks, none of whom are, strictly speaking, theologians.  That's why S&S were compelled to put forward a revisionist interpretation of Bellarmine.  But it has been a total failure for them.  Their best bet is to simply deny that George is a heretic.  At least then they would have a lot of company.


    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #581 on: November 20, 2019, 12:21:25 PM »
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  •      In order to support their erroneous opinion on this point, Salza & Siscoe in Chapter 11 of their book quote the ambiguously stated opinion of Fr. Sebastian Smith (Elements of Ecclesiastical Law, p. 210. 68 Ibid., Preface, p. xi.), who wrote in 1881, “Question: Is a Pope who falls into heresy deprived, ipso jure, of the Pontificate? Answer: There are two opinions: one holds that he is by virtue of divine appointment, divested ipso facto, of the Pontificate; the other, that he is, jure divino, only removable. Both opinions agree that he must at least be declared guilty of heresy by the Church - i.e., by an ecuмenical council or the College of Cardinals.” It is first to be pointed out that Fr. Smith states ambiguously that there are “two opinions” on the question (there have been five opinions, but only two which admit the removal of a manifest heretic pope); and he says, “Both opinions agree that he must at least be declared guilty of heresy by the Church”. This statement, “Both opinions agree that he must at least be declared guilty of heresy by the Church”, simply means that in the case of an ipso jure loss of office which takes place automatically even before the declaration and independently of it; and the case of jure divino “only removable” opinion, in which the loss of office is said to take place immediately upon the declaration: in both cases, a declaratory sentence would be required to enforce the removal and authorize the election of a new pope. Expressed in the manner that it is formulated, the statement can superficially be misinterpreted to mean, (in the manner that Salza & Siscoe opportunistically misinterpret it for their own purpose), that the declaration would be required in order for the loss of office to take place. As they do with so many authors (as will be shown later in this work), Salza & Siscoe twist the meaning of a passage to make it appear to say exactly the opposite from what a critical examination of the words demonstrates to be their authentic meaning. Smith is clearly referring to Opinion No. 5 when he says, “one holds that he is by virtue of divine appointment, divested ipso facto, of the Pontificate”; since he writes in answer to the question, “Is a Pope who falls into heresy deprived, ipso jure, of the Pontificate?” Now in Canon Law, the expression that one is deprived ipso jure means that it is automatic – it takes place ipso facto before any judgment is prounounced. This is exactly how the medieval Decretists employed the term in the earliest formulations of Opinion No. 5, and it is employed in exactly the same manner by the Council of Constance when it deposed Pedro de Luna “as a precautionary measure”, and declared that he had already fallen from every ecclesiastical dignity and had been severed from the body of the Church ipso jure before any judgment was pronounced. The term is again employed in exactly the same manner in the 1983 Code of Canon Law of Pope John Paul II. When Smith says of “the other”, i.e. “that he is, jure divino, only removable”, he is clearly speaking of Opinion No. 4 in its less radical formulation (Suárez), according to which the Church would deliberatively determine that the pope is a heretic, and upon the juridical declaration of guilt, the pope would immediately fall from office. If Smith had meant by, “Both opinions agree that he must at least be declared guilty of heresy by the Church”, that in both cases a declaration of guilt would be necessary for the fall from to take place; that would mean that there would not be two opinions on the question, but only one, namely, “that he is, jure divino, only removable”. Yet this absurd interpretation of the passage is exactly how it is understood by Salza & Siscoe in Chapter 11 of their book: «Fr. Smith expressly states that “both opinions agree” that he must at least be declared guilty of heresy by the Church. If he is not found guilty, he remains a true and valid Pope.”  
    Thank you, Father.

    It was bad enough that Mr. S could only come up with 2 theologians when I asked him who, after Vatican I, agreed with his position. To make matters worse for him, now you show him that he doesn't even have . . . one. You dispatched his claim regarding Father Ghirlanda on another post.

    I have no ax to grind here, but to me this settles it. Facts are facts. No theologians support Mr. S.

    Maybe he's trying to find at least one in his absence, with that "bishop in the woods."

    Mr. S. you will come back and let us know, won't you?

    DR
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #582 on: November 20, 2019, 03:14:10 PM »
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  • Sede vacantists and conservative Novus Ordo folks (Ed Peters, Ghirlanda, Burke, etc) all accept the teaching of pre-V2 theologians on ipso facto loss of the papacy.  The only people who don't accept it are the R&R folks who also reject the Church's teaching on the infallibility of the magisterium.

    Nonsense, as usual.
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Don Paolo

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #583 on: November 20, 2019, 03:44:01 PM »
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  • Stubborn says: "I disagree with this opinion, my opinion is that it is a dogmatic fact that he is the pope because he was legitimately elected and accepted his election. The unanimous opinion of the whole Church does not change his legitimacy, nor does the judgement of "the council" - who may not judge him to begin with."

    When the new pope appears after the white smoke signals that the new pope was elected, it is reasonably presumed but not always certain that the man's election has been canonically valid. (In 1378 Cardinal Tebaldeschi was presented as the newly elected pope but he was not the one who was elected.) Van Noort explains that it is theologicae certum that when the whole Church accords universal and peaceful acceptance to the one elected, the validity of his pontificate becomes a dogmatic fact (i.e. no longer merely presumed). Bergoglio was not accorded universal acceptance as the term is properly understood, because his acceptance was not exclusive, as I have already explained. As a public defector from the Catholic faith, he is an incapable subject to receive or conserve the form of the pontificate (as Bellarmine explains). What that means is that he is incapable of even being a valid pope, because public heretics are not members of the truth, even if they are ignorantly believed to be members by the vast majority of the public. Benedict XVI remains in office as pope, because he expressed his intention not to relinquish his munus.

    Offline Don Paolo

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #584 on: November 20, 2019, 03:47:46 PM »
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  • Stubborn says: "I disagree with this opinion, my opinion is that it is a dogmatic fact that he is the pope because he was legitimately elected and accepted his election. The unanimous opinion of the whole Church does not change his legitimacy, nor does the judgement of "the council" - who may not judge him to begin with."

    When the new pope appears after the white smoke signals that the new pope was elected, it is reasonably presumed but not always certain that the man's election has been canonically valid. (In 1378 Cardinal Tebaldeschi was presented as the newly elected pope but he was not the one who was elected.) Van Noort explains that it is theologicae certum that when the whole Church accords universal and peaceful acceptance to the one elected, the validity of his pontificate becomes a dogmatic fact (i.e. no longer merely presumed). Bergoglio was not accorded universal acceptance as the term is properly understood, because his acceptance was not exclusive, as I have already explained. As a public defector from the Catholic faith, he is an incapable subject to receive or conserve the form of the pontificate (as Bellarmine explains). What that means is that he is incapable of even being a valid pope, because public heretics are not members of the Church, even if they are ignorantly believed to be members by the vast majority of the public. Benedict XVI remains in office as pope, because he expressed his intention not to relinquish his munus.