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Author Topic: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!  (Read 43887 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
« Reply #450 on: November 13, 2019, 04:19:18 PM »
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    Don Paulo:  Are we to believe that Fr. Kramer and all the canonists and theologians he quoted have misunderstood Bellarmine's arguments on the fourth and fifth opinions; and that only now, Salza & Siscoe finally got it right?
    .
    Ladislaus:  Yeah, that's my big problem with their spin on Bellarmine.  I've seen no other theologian or canonist interpret Bellarmine the way they do.

    Can you both be more specific?  What "spin" are you referring to?  Honest question.  This thread has so many quotes and angles that I'm lost here.

    Offline PaxChristi2

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #451 on: November 13, 2019, 04:35:52 PM »
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  • You are perpetrating a deliberate fraud: There is no contradiction between what I say now and what I said before. You are perfectly aware of this but you deliberately twist out of context of my words to make them appear to mean something else than what I intended – the desperate tactic of a crooked and corrupt lawyer. If you read the text of what I wrote in their proper context, you will see that there is obviously no contradiction.

    Two points.  First, I've read what you wrote in context and there is a direct contradiction between what you wrote then and now.  If you believe there's not, please explain how.
     
    Second, if there's no contradiction, why did you call what you wrote in 2016 "incredibly ignorant" and "patently absurd" when Siscoe and Salza responded to one of your e-mails by quoting it back to you without telling you that you wrote it?
     
    The following is taken from the article I linked to previously:


    Quote
    Siscoe and Salza: “Now, since Fr. Kramer’s new argument is clearly contrary to what he wrote a mere 18 months ago, and because Fr. Kramer always denies contradicting himself when the contradiction is pointed out, we decided to respond to the e-mail in which he sent out the above argument, by quoting his own words without telling him the words were his own. How did he respond? Did he recognize his own writing style, as we suspected would happen, or perhaps see the truth in his former position when it was presented to him, as he himself formulated it? Nope. Instead, he responded by declaring his own previous teaching to be “incredibly ignorant” and “patently and absurdly false.” Here is his reply (the underlined words are his own):
     

    Fr. Kramer: “You ignorant rants have descended to the level of lunacy: The external act of heresy is in its nature a sin, but is not in its nature a crime. … The specific nature of heresy (as I pointed out in my book) is identically defined in Moral Theology as a sin, and in Canon Law as a crime (i.e. “the pertinacious denial or doubt of a revealed truth which must be believed with divine and Catholic faith”).  Thus, the nature of heresy is the same for the internal sin, the external sin, and the crime. … Your incredibly ignorant statement that, ‘The sin of heresy can be distinguished from the crime solely according to the circuмstances of whether or not the sin was committed internally’ is patently and absurdly false. … you only succeed in manifesting your utter incompetence and your profound ignorance of the subject matter.” (source


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #452 on: November 13, 2019, 04:52:04 PM »
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  • Ladislaus,
    Another question for you.  +Fr Chazal says that +Francis is a 'manifest heretic'.  According to +Bellarmine, manifest heretics automatically lose their office.  Yet Fr Chazal says that +Francis does not automatically lose his office.  This contradiction leads to questions:
    .
    1.  Does not +Chazal's view "spin" +Bellarmine's quote?
    1a.  Or... does he ignore it and consider it wrong?
    2.  Or...is Fr Chazal using 'manifest' in a different sense than +Bellarmine?
    3.  Or...is +Bellarmine's definition of the word 'manifest' in agreement with Fr Chazal's definition, but disagree with the "commonly held" opinion of Sedevacantists (Fr Cekada) and most on this board?
    4.  Or...maybe another alternative?
    .
    I think this is a fair question.  Maybe Fr Chazal can answer it.  Does anyone converse with him?

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #453 on: November 13, 2019, 06:01:57 PM »
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  • Ladislaus,
    Another question for you.  +Fr Chazal says that +Francis is a 'manifest heretic'.  According to +Bellarmine, manifest heretics automatically lose their office.  Yet Fr Chazal says that +Francis does not automatically lose his office.  This contradiction leads to questions:
    .
    1.  Does not +Chazal's view "spin" +Bellarmine's quote?
    1a.  Or... does he ignore it and consider it wrong?
    2.  Or...is Fr Chazal using 'manifest' in a different sense than +Bellarmine?
    3.  Or...is +Bellarmine's definition of the word 'manifest' in agreement with Fr Chazal's definition, but disagree with the "commonly held" opinion of Sedevacantists (Fr Cekada) and most on this board?
    4.  Or...maybe another alternative?
    .
    I think this is a fair question.  Maybe Fr Chazal can answer it.  Does anyone converse with him?

    Yes, I re-listened to the first video yesterday.  Father Chazal explains Bellarmine in the usual way, the ipso facto loss of office way.  He himself, however, opts for the John of St. Thomas & Cajetan positions (or some combination of the two).  So, unlike Bellarmine, he himself does NOT believe that the manifest heretic loses office before the Church's declaration.

    He laid out that there were, basically, two sides to this issue, and he takes the one side over the other.

    Offline Don Paolo

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #454 on: November 14, 2019, 04:04:30 AM »
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  • PaxChristi2, YOU ARE A BOLD FACED LIAR. THERE IS NO CONTRADICTION IN MY WORDS:

    SALZA & SISCOE FRAUDULENTLY ALTER MY MEANING AND FALSIFY MY WORDS On 21 January, I wrote to Siscoe: 《Your ignorant rants have descended to the level of lunacy: The external act of heresy is in its nature a sin, but is not in its nature a crime. The sinfulness of heresy pertains to the specific nature of the act, regardless of the circuмstance of whether the sin is committed with an internal or external act. Such a circuмstance does not alter the specific nature of the sin, which is the same for both the internal and the external sin. The specific nature of heresy (as I pointed out in my book) is identically defined in Moral Theology as a sin, and in Canon Law as a crime (i.e. the pertinacious denial or doubt of a revealed truth which must be believed with divine and Catholic faith)*. Thus, the nature of heresy is the same for the internal sin, the external sin, and the crime. The internal sin of heresy differs from the crime of heresy not in an essential difference in the [specific] nature of the act, but according to the circuмstance of it being an internal act, and according to its formal aspect considered as a violation of divine law. The external sin of heresy differs from the crime of heresy, neither according to its nature, nor according to any circuмstance of the act; but only according to the formal aspect of the act considered as a sin (i.e as a violation of divine law) as distinguished from its formal aspect considered as a crime (i.e. as a violation of ecclesiastical law). The intrinsic nature of the act, considered under both formal aspects remains the same. The thing that distinguishes the external sin of heresy from the crime of heresy is not the specific nature of the act (which is identical in both), but the circuмstance extrinsic to its nature, namely, the fact that the legislator enacted a law [or added a penalty] that made that external sin a crime. Your incredibly ignorant statement that, "The sin of heresy can be distinguished [in its specific nature] from the crime solely according to the circuмstances of whether or not the sin was committed internally" is patently and absurdly false, since the external sin of heresy is by definition identical to the external act defined in law as the crime of heresy; and both are therefore indistinguishable in their nature. The external sin of heresy is not in its nature a crime; and therefore, it was not a crime before penal legislation made it a crime; and it would not be a crime today if there were no law enacted against it, thereby making it a crime. The external sin of heresy is identical in nature to the crime of heresy, and therefore the crime of heresy can only be distinguished from the external sin of heresy not according to its nature, but according to its formal aspect of its being considered as a violation of ecclesiastical positive law. However, whether considered according to its formal aspect of being a criminal violation of Church law; or a sin against Divine law; the specific nature of the act of heresy, as defined in Canon Law and Moral Theology, is identical in both cases. The difference between the specific nature of a crime as such (as defined in Canon Law), and the specific nature of a sin as such (as defined in Moral Theology), is a difference of circuмstance and formal aspect of an act; but the intrinsic nature of the criminal act is identical to the intrinsic nature of the sinful act if the act is of the same species. The nature of sin, considered under the formal aspect of sin, is of a violation of divine law; whereas the nature of crime, considered under the formal aspect of crime, is of an external violation of ecclesiastical or human positive law; but the objective nature intrinsic to the act is the same for both the sin and the crime of the same species. The sinful act does not differ in nature from the criminal act, and therefore the sin and the crime of the same species are distinguishable solely according to the circuмstances of the act and the differing formal aspect under which they are considered, but not according to the [specific] nature of the act which is identical in both. You would understand all of this if you had a proper, formal education in Moral Theology and Canon Law, but you obviously lack a proper education in these academic disciplines; yet you ignorantly pontificate on Canon Law and Theology, presenting yourself as if you were one who is academically qualified to expound on matters pertaining to these disciplines, but you only succeed in manifesting your utter incompetence and your profound ignorance of the subject matter. * "Can. 751 — Dicitur hæresis, pertinax, post receptum baptismum, alicuius veritatis divina et catholica credendæ denegatio, aut de eadem pertinax dubitatio; apostasia, fidei christianæ ex toto repudiatio". "Hæresis est error intellectus, et pertinax contra Fidem, in eo qui Fidem suscepit. ... Unde patet, ad Hæresim, ut et Apostasiam, duo requiri, 1. Judicium erroneum, quod est ejus quasi materiale. 2. Pertinaciam; quæ est quasi formale. Porro pertinaciter errare non est hic acriter, et mordicus suum errorem tueri; sed est eum retinere, postquam contrarium est sufficienter propositum: sive quando scit contrarium teneri a reliqua universali Christi in terris Ecclesia, cui suum iudicium præferat” – St. Alphonsus M. De Liguori, Lib. II. Tract. I. De præcepto Fidei. Dubium III. Fr. Paul Kramer B.Ph., S.T.B., M. Div., S.T.L. (Cand.) 》 On 22 January I wrote: 《Salza & Siscoe also make the incredibly stupid assertion that, "The external act of heresy is, by its nature, a crime." This statement is absurd on its face, because if that were true, then the external act of heresy would be a crime even if there were no law (!) – but a crime is defined as an external violation of a LAW [i.e. an ecclesiastical law]. Siscoe errantly explains further that, "there’s a difference between the definition of the sin of heresy, and the definition the crime of heresy: there is a difference between the nature of the respective acts". Now that's about as insanely ignorant as one can get, since both the sin (in Moral Theology) and the crime (in Canon Law) are identically defined as "the pertinacious denial or doubt of a revealed truth which must be believed with divine and Catholic faith". I have already explained this point fully and quoted the authoritative sources in my latest reply to Siscoe. Salza & Siscoe have manifested their utter incompetence in Theology and Canon Law by nonsensically asserting that the external act of heresy is in its nature a crime (!). Every theologian and canonist on earth knows that the act of heresy, both internal and external, in its nature is a sin; and that only the law [i.e. an ecclesiastical law], (which is extrinsic to the nature of the act whether internal or external, and does not enter into the definition of the external act) makes the external sin a crime. The circuмstance of being an "external violation of a law" [i.e. of an ecclesiastical law] defines the nature of a crime; but it does not enter into the definition of the act of heresy, which is the same definition, specifying the same nature for both the internal and external SIN of heresy. The circuмstance of being an "external violation of a law" is merely an accidental circuмstance that does not pertain to the nature of the external act of heresy. That is why it is the sin of heresy, committed as a public act, which separates one from the body Church suapte natura and not the crime, since a crime separates one from the Church not by its nature, but "by legitimate authority" [i.e. excommunication], as Pius XII explains in Mystici Corporis. Similarly, the sin of public defection from the faith by formal heresy effects the ipso jure, i.e. automatic loss of any office whatsoever, without any official judgment; as is plainly set forth in the relevant canons, and clearly explained in the commentaries on Canon Law written by the Faculties of Canon Law of the PONTIFICIA UNIVERSIDAD ECLESIÁSTICA DE SALAMANCA and the UNIVERSIDAD DE NAVARRA , which I quoted in my manuscript. 》 Siscoe's reply desperately resorts to extremely dishonest verbal trickery, saying: «Fr. Kramer: The intrinsic nature of the act, considered under both formal aspects remains the same. The thing that distinguishes the external sin of heresy from the crime of heresy is not the specific nature of the act (which is identical in both), but the circuмstance extrinsic to its nature, namely, the fact that the legislator enacted a law that made that external sin a crime. Your incredibly ignorant statement that, "The sin of heresy can be distinguished from the crime solely according to the circuмstances of whether or not the sin was committed internally" is patently and absurdly false. Siscoe, But Father, I was quoting you verbatim. The "ignorant statement" that you condemned as "patently and absurdly false," is your own. You'll see the entire quotation in part II. Now, since you can't even get your own argument straight, condemning as "patently and absurdly false" today, what you yourself explicitly taught yesterday, it is clearly a waste of time to continue this discussion. » This is the same kind of malicious sophistry Siscoe resorted to when he dishonestly attempted to make it appear that I had contradicted myself on the question of Opinion No. 2, regarding the deposition of an occult heretic pope. I exposed Siscoe's fraud on that point in my manuscript, and I will presently expose his latest fraud here: The statement, "The sin of heresy can be distinguished [in its specific nature] from the crime [in its specific nature] solely according to the circuмstances of whether or not the sin was committed internally" is indeed "patently and absurdly false", if in its plainly stated context the the proposition is expressly intended to posit a distinction of specific nature between the nature of the sin and the nature of the criminal act; i.e. that there is a difference in specific nature of the act between the sin of heresy and the crime of heresy, [which in fact is not distinguished by specific nature, but is only distinguished by the sin of heresy belonging to the genus of internal acts, and the crime of heresy to the genus of external acts]. [That is exactly what Siscoe attempted to prove, namely, that the sin of heresy, and the external act of the crime of heresy, are of two different specific natures; i.e., sins of different species.] However, in the context that I made the statement, it did not refer to a distinction in specific nature, but to the distinction of the circuмstance which distinguishes their generic nature which [alone] distinguishes the sin from the crime, which are acts of the same specific nature of heresy. Now it is manifestly evident that the external act of heresy, whether occult or public, is a criminal act; and the only thing that distinguishes the materially criminal act from the merely sinful act is the circuмstance that the internal sin is not a crime – what disgtinguishes the external criminal act from the merely sinful internal act is not a difference in specific nature. Hence, it is thus plainly evident that Robert Siscoe's statement, "Now, since you can't even get your own argument straight, condemning as 'patently and absurdly false' today, what you yourself explicitly taught yesterday, it is clearly a waste of time to continue this discussion", is a skilfully crafted, deliberate lie; written for the purpose of defending his heresy which asserts that only the delict of heresy, but not the public sin as such, suapte natura separates one from the body of the Church; and similarly that only the notorious crime of heresy, but not the mere sin of public defection into heresy ipso jure results necessarily in the automatic loss of office (as is clearly explained in the passages I quoted in the commentaries of the Canon Law faculties of Navarra and Salamanca) – and they still heretically insist that even in the latter case, a juridical pronouncement is required for the actual loss of office to take place. So this is how Siscoe attempts to end the discussion, with lying sophistry expressed with the deliberate intention to deceive. Even after I explained this point on 22 January, Salza & Siscoe stated the same premeditated and very deliberate lie in Part II of their Formal Reply: «Fr. Kramer Explicitly Condemns His Very Own Words! Now, since Fr. Kramer’s new argument is clearly contrary to what he wrote a mere 18 months ago (sic), and because Fr. Kramer always denies contradicting himself when the contradiction is pointed out (sic), we decided to respond to the e-mail in which he sent out the above argument, by quoting his own words, without telling him the words were his own. How did he respond? Did he recognize his own writing style, as we suspected would happen, or perhaps see the truth in his former position when it was presented to him as he himself formulated it? Nope. Instead, he responded by declaring his own previous teaching to be “incredibly ignorant” and “patently and absurdly false. » As I pointed out, in the context in which Siscoe made the statement, the abusive taking of my words out of their proper context to assert an erroneous distinction of specific nature between the internal sin of heresy and the crime of heresy is indeed “incredibly ignorant” and “patently and absurdly false.” It was his proposition (which I condemned), which made use of my words to assert something I have never asserted; to wit, a proposition which erroneously and most ignorantly posits a difference between the specific nature of the sin of heresy and the specific nature of the crime of heresy, thereby nonsensically making internal heresy and external heresy two different species of sin. It was not my own previous teaching, which asserted the same specific nature and only an accidental distinction of qualitative circuмstance pertaining to the generic nature, and not of specific nature, that I condemned. Siscoe’s proposition and mine use the same words to express something entirely different, since each proposition addresses a different formal aspect of the same matter. Thus it can be clearly seen that Siscoe’s statements, 1) “Fr. Kramer Explicitly Condemns His Very Own Words!”; and, 2) “Fr. Kramer’s new argument is clearly contrary to what he wrote a mere 18 months ago”, are deliberately crafted lies. The entire argument that Salza & Siscoe present in their Formal Reply, which attempts to prove that I have changed my position, is based on fraudulently altered quotations of my words by which they deceitfully attempt to make me appear to deny what I actually affirm. Here is a typical example of their fraudulent alteration of my words: «Fr. Kramer: “Salza's error …[is this]: ‘Separation from the Soul of the Church is intrinsic to the nature of the internal act of heresy, and separation from the Body of the Church is intrinsic to the nature of the external act of [notorious] heresy, even if external heresy were not a crime in canon law.’» They deleted my words which specify Salza’s error, “[the internal sin and the external sin are not of the same nature]”; and changed my meaning by adding in their place the words, “[is this]”, (“Salza's error …[is this] . . .”) From this falsified quotation, one would easily be led to the conclusion that I reject the quoted proposition as as an error; which in fact, I have consistently upheld as true, and amply demonstrated it to be true in this work. What I actually condemned and clearly explained to be Salza’s error is the doctrine that, according to the proper interpretation of Mystici Corporis, the internal sin and the external sin are not of the same specific nature; and accordingly: «Salza's error (the internal sin and the external sin are not of the same nature): "Separation from the Soul of the Church is intrinsic to the [specific] nature of the internal act of heresy, and separation from the Body of the Church is intrinsic to the [specific] nature of the external act of heresy, even if external heresy were not a crime in canon law." »  


    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #455 on: November 14, 2019, 07:28:28 AM »
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    Quote from: DecemRationis on Yesterday at 10:46:35 AM
    Quote
    So the challenge to S & S: cite one canonist or theologian after Vatican I who discusses this specific issue of a heretic pope (as the attached canonists do) who says that a declaration would be necessary to remove a manifest public heretic who is pope (if it were to happen). Says it straight out without any nonsense, like the attached canonists say a declaration is not necessary.

    All I've see from S & S is leaps and arguments from sources not discussing the specific issue of a heretic pope and whether a declaration is necessary for loss of office in this specific case.


    Here's two.  I posted the first one previously.  It is from the former rector of the Gregorian, who not only taught canon law for most of his adult life, but is one of the relatively few that has studied the past 1000 years of canonical tradition on the subject.


    Quote
    Quote
    Father Ghirlanda, S.J., (2013):  “The vacancy of the Roman See occurs in case of the cessation of the office on the part of the Roman Pontiff, which happens for four reasons: 1) Death, 2) Sure and perpetual insanity or complete mental infirmity; 3) Notorious apostasy, heresy, schism; 4) Resignation.  In the first case, the Apostolic See is vacant from the moment of death of the Roman Pontiff; in the second and in the third from the moment of the declaration on the part of the cardinals; in the fourth from the moment of the renunciation." (…) There is the case, admitted by doctrine, of notorious apostasy, heresy and schism, into which the Roman Pontiff could fall, but as a ‘private doctor,’ that does not demand the assent of the faithful (…) However, in such cases, because ‘the first see is judged by no one’ (Canon 1404) no one could depose the Roman Pontiff, but only a declaration of the fact would be had, which would have to be done by the Cardinals, at least of those present in Rome.” ("La Civiltà Cattolica" March, 2,  2013)


    The Church judges and declares the fact, and at that "moment" the See becomes vacant.
     
    The next is from Elements of Ecclesiastical Law (1881):


    Quote
    Quote
    Elements of Ecclesiastical Law (1881): “Question: Is a Pope who falls into heresy deprived, ipso jure, of the Pontificate? “Answer: There are two opinions: one holds that he is by virtue of divine appointment, divested ipso facto, of the Pontificate; the other, that he is, jure divino, only removable.  Both opinions agree that he must at least be declared guilty of heresy by the church, i.e., by an ecuмenical council or the College of Cardinals.  The question is hypothetical rather than practical”. (Smith, Sebastian B. Elements of Ecclesiastical Law (revised third edition), New York: Benzinger Brothers, 1881)


    The Preface of the Third Edition of 'Elements' explains that Cardinal Simeoni, Prefect of the Propaganda Fide, “appointed two Consultors, doctors in canon law, to examine the ‘Elements’ and report to him. The Consultors, after examining the book for several months, made each a lengthy report to the Cardinal-Prefect”. Their detailed reports noted five minor inaccuracies or errors that required revision before the third edition could be printed, but no objections were raised against the quotation above, which confirm that it is not contrary to anything taught by Vatican I.



    Pax Christi,

    Thank you for your response.

    So you have studied this in depth for years and written a 700 page or so book and you respond to my question by citing a statement from a Novus Ordo Jesuit in a Jesuit periodical whose editor-in-chief is Fr. Spadaro, "the pope's mouthpiece." The other scholarly support for your position is a textbook that takes your odd position that "both opinions" in this dispute require a declarative sentence by "an ecuмenical council or the College of Cardinals" for a heretic pope to be deprived "de juro" of the pontificate. And you note that the latter has been edited also, though this time of course not by Spadaro.

    Well, at least you are not "alone."

    But does this paucity of authority for your view give you pause? I'd love to know what's going through your mind if in fact it does give you pause.

    It should, at a minimum, cause you to pause calling those Catholics who reject Francis as pope "heretics" and/or "schismatics" for taking sides on the mountain of authority overlooking your valley. At the very bare, very bare minimum I should think.

    I hope for your sake you can come up with some other authority that states a declaration is necessary in light of your bold claims regarding fellow Catholics who affirm the Creed and refuse to recognize the authority of a heretic - taking to heart the command of St. Paul and the Holy Ghost in Galatians 1:8-9.

    DR


    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #456 on: November 14, 2019, 08:18:37 AM »
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    Pax, why would Bellarmine define the word manifest? 
    +Bellarmine was a professor of theology.  You obviously don't understand what theologians do or how they are trained.

    Offline PaxChristi2

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #457 on: November 14, 2019, 10:28:40 AM »
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  • PaxChristi2, YOU ARE A BOLD FACED LIAR. THERE IS NO CONTRADICTION IN MY WORDS:

    SALZA & SISCOE FRAUDULENTLY ALTER MY MEANING AND FALSIFY MY WORDS On 21 January, I wrote to Siscoe: 《Your ignorant rants have descended to the level of lunacy: The external act of heresy is in its nature a sin, but is not in its nature a crime. 
    I can only hope that the incoherent rant of half truths, errors, and absurdities that you just posted, is in print in your book, since that alone should be enough to discredit you in the eyes of any knowledgeable Catholic.
     
    This is very simple to understand.  The sin of heresy can be committed by an internal act alone, or it can be committed by an external act.  If it is committed by an external act it is, by definition, a crime.
     
    What you are doing is affirming one truth, and using it to deny another.  What's true is that if heresy is committed by an internal act alone, or by an internal act combined with an external act, it is of its nature a sin.  That's the part you have right. 
     
    What you deny is that if the sin of heresy is committed by an external act it is ALSO in the nature of a crime.  What distinguishes the nature of a sin from the nature of a crime, is that the latter requires an external act whereas the former does not.  Here's how the quote you yourself provided in the e-mail exchange (only in Latin, of course, in the hope that no one could understand it) defines the nature of a crime.

     
    “CIC 1917, Book V Part I defines "the nature of a crime Can. 2195. §1A crime is an external and morally imputable transgression of a law to which is attached a canonical sanction (Nomine delicti, iure ecclesiastico, intelligitur externa et moraliter imputabilis legis violatio cui addita sit sanctio canonica saltem indeterminata."
     
     
    If the sin of heresy is committed by an external act it is in the nature of a crime, period.  Yet you say: " The external act of heresy is in its nature a sin, but is not in its nature a crime."  Again, you affirm one truth and and use it to deny another - just like your predecessor Martin Luther.


    Offline Mr G

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #458 on: November 14, 2019, 12:38:58 PM »
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  • I do not see any contradiction in Fr. Kramer's statement here:

    "The external act of heresy is, by its nature, a crime." This statement is absurd on its face, because if that were true, then the external act of heresy would be a crime even if there were no law (!) – but a crime is defined as an external violation of a LAW [i.e. an ecclesiastical law]

    And this one here:

    “CIC 1917, Book V Part I defines "the nature of a crime Can. 2195. §1A crime is an external and morally imputable transgression of a law to which is attached a canonical sanction (Nomine delicti, iure ecclesiastico, intelligitur externa et moraliter imputabilis legis violatio cui addita sit sanctio canonica saltem indeterminata."

    Because both have qualifiers which are 1.) an external and 2.) morally imputable transgression of a law 3.) to which is attached a canonical sanction. (Which Fr. Kramer sums up as "an external violation of a LAW [i.e. an ecclesiastical law]"

    Plus it seems Fr. Kramer is talking about the "nature of heresy" whereas PaxChriti2 in the CIC 1917 Book V Part I which he quotes is regarding the "nature of a crime".

    I would suggest both sides to first list definitions of terms and then once the meaning of terms and definitions are agreed upon, then begin the deabte on specific issues. But if each side has different meanings, then nothing will be resolved.

    Offline Don Paolo

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #459 on: November 14, 2019, 12:39:45 PM »
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  •  The fallacious Salza/Siscoe argument that external heresy is in its nature an ecclesiastical crime, is that since, according to Canon Law the external act of heresy conforms to the specifications required for an act to qualify as a crime, external heresy is therefore, in its nature a crime. The nonsensical fallacy of their thinking is exposed in the consideration that what pertains to the definition of a crime, does not intrinsically pertain to the nature of exernal heresy (whether considered formally in its specific nature as heresy or materially in its generic nature as an external act); and therefore, the external act of heresy is not in its nature a crime. Heresy in its nature is directly and per se opposed to faith, but it is not in its nature intrinsically opposed to ecclesiastical law, since the penal sanction added to it in ecclesiastical law is an accidental circuмstance extrinsic to its nature. Salza & Siscoe fallaciously argue that since external heresy falls within the parameters of the definition of a crime in canon law (i.e. an external violation of a law or precept, etc.), external heresy is consequently by definition a crime, and therefore it is in its intrinsic nature a crime. The false conclusion is based on an elementary error of logic: External heresy is indeed a crime because it falls within the parameters of the canonical definition of a delict; but that only accidently qualifies external heresy as a crime, because the specifications of the nature of a crime which fall within the canonical definition of a crime do not fall within the canonical or theological definition of heresy. Being a crime is an accidental quality of external heresy due to the circuмstance that external heresy is a delict according to ecclesiastical law; but that quality does not pertain per se to the essential nature of external heresy, because its being an external violation of a penal law does not pertain to the definition of external heresy as it is defined in canon law and moral theology. Furthermore, to be a crime, the external act must be morally imputable; and hence, the merely material and therefore inculpable external act of heresy is not a crime; and therefore, it follows necessarily that the act of external heresy is manifestly not in its nature a crime. Additionally (as is explained below), to be a crime, it does not suffice that it violate a precept of divine law, but it must also violate an ecclesiastical law or precept; and therefore, without a law or precept of ecclesiastical law, or at least a divine law to which is added a penal censure, the external act is not a delict, nor is it punishable in the external forum by the Church. Thus, it is patent, that the external act of heresy per se, is not in its nature a crime. 
        be an “externa et moraliter imputabilis legis violatio cui addita sit sanctio canonica saltem indeterminata”. A morally imputable violation of divine law, whether internal or external, is by definition, and therefore in its very nature a sin , but not a crime. It is thus, patently clear that by leaving out the important material in the cited section of Fr. Augustine’s work, Salza & Siscoe deliberately intend to deceive their readers into thinking that Fr. Augustine says exactly the opposite of what he actually says. When one reads the text of Fr. Augustine’s commentary on canon 2195 in its proper context, the fraudulent verbal sleight off hand becomes obvious: On page 10 – 11: «A crime, in ecclesiastical law, is an external and morally imputable transgression of a law to which is attached a canonical sanction, at least in general. Delictum is taken from the word delinquere (de and linquere, to forsake, to leave, to omit) and means an offense in the general sense. However, by common usage the term is restricted to a public offense or crime against the juridical order or law. Therefore it is called a transgression of the law, whether divine or human, i.e., merely ecclesiastical. It is the law, either eternal or positive, that governs order, the relation of man to God and of man to man, and any defection from that order constitutes a frustration of the designs of Providence. » «2. But the transgression which the ecclesiastical law considers is not merely the guilty mind (mens rea), but the act, – i.e., an outward manifestation of a vicious intention, or a breach of the law as externally apprehensible . . . It is essential to the notion of delictum that it be an external act, either of speech or deed, although it is not necessary to be provable. » After the paragraph on externality, Fr. Augustine then elaborates on the legal element on page 12, 13 and 14: «4. But what does the addition “cui addita sit sanctio canonica saltem indeterminata” mean? The transgression is accompanied by penal sanction, at least in general terms. This means that there is neither crime nor punishment without a penal law.4 [“Nullum crimen, nulla poena sine lege poenali,” was the adage of the School; Eichmann, l. c., p. 27.] It is therefore, as stated above, the law which is infringed and which punishes. […] Take, for instance, the reading of forbidden books, which is not punished generally (can. 1395) but only in particular cases (can. 2318); hunting by clergymen (can.138), etc. Yet these forbidden actions cannot be called crimes in the sense of ecclesiastical law.” […] The sanctio canonica indeterminata signifies a penalty to be meted out according to the good pleasure of the judge or superior (can. 2217, § I, n. I). It follows that, although no special penalty is provided for the transgression of a law, yet if that law embodies the provision that the punishment of the transgressor is left to the prudent judgment of the Ordinary, this is sufficient to mark the transgression as a crime, provided that the other necessary marks are not wanting. » Thus, one of the great authorities on Canon Law explains those marks and elements necessary for a sin to be considered a cime in ecclesiastical law; and all of those marks and elements together do not pertain to the intrinsic nature of any external sin. The commentary of the Salamanca Canon Law Faculty explains on page 783, the definition of a crime in essentially the same sense as Fr. Augustine, but expounding on the necessary elements that constitute a delict in ecclesiastical law more concisely and with greater precision: «2195 Tres son los elementos constitutivos del delito por derecho ecelesiástico: a) violación externa de una ley; b) que la violación sea moralmente imputable, y c) que la ley lleve aneja una sanción canonica, por lo menos indeterminada. A estos tres elementos suelen los autores llamarles, respectivamente, elemento objetivo, elemento subjetivo y elemento legal. A dicha terminología nos atendremos, por ser la más común. » Those three elements necessary for a sin to be constituted as a crime in ecclesiastical law are 1) the external violation of a law (the objective element), 2) moral imputability of the violation (the subjective element), 3) a penal sanction connected to the law (legal element). The objective element is comprised of a) an external violation, b) of a law, c) that damages the juridico-social order of the Church . The canon uses the word ‘law’ in the broad sense of an obligatory norm of objective law, which includes in its scope a law properly so-called, or a simple jurisdictional precept or admonition. The law must be ecclesiastical, it does not suffice for a crime that a law merely natural or divine be transgressed, however grave it might be. In order for a natural or divine law to be of ecclesiastical character, it would suffice that the Church sanction it with a canonical penalty. Also pertaining essentially to the nature of a crime, is the legal element, as Fr. Augustine explained (in the portion of the text that Salza & Siscoe left out when quoting it), and summed up with the words, “This means that there is neither crime nor punishment without a penal law.” The catedráticos of the Canon Law faculty of Salamanca elaborate even more fully on this point, and what is most essential is that, «[P]or derecho eclesiástico, lo mismo que ocurre en la legislación de los Estados, la violación no constituye delito, aunque pueda ser pecado externo, si no hay una norma legal objetiva – en sentido lato, según hemos expuesto – que amenace previamente con una pena. De no ser asi, se daría lugar a inumerables arbitrariedades, lo que cedería en ultimo lugar en detrimento mayor y trastorno del orden social. » In this passage, the Salamanca canonists explain why it is that the legal element necessarily pertains essentially to the nature of a crime – and that is because it is necessary for a penalty to be connected to the violation of a law, for the violation to constitute a crime; because it is essential to the preservation of the social order which necessarily requires it. Hence, the mere omission of any mention of the legal element in the characterization of a crime in the 1983 Code (which falls short of a proper definition), cannot imply that the absence of inclusion of the legal element in the canons of the 1983 Code alters the essential definition of a crime; firstly because the legal element pertains intrinsically to the nature of a crime, which lies outside of the power of a legislator to eliminate; and secondly [as the Canon Law faculty of Navarre explain in the passage cited below] because one of the general principles applied in the 1983 revision of the Code of Canon Law was the elimination of all the definitions that were given in the 1917 Code, since they pertain to canonical doctrine rather than legislation; and thus remain applicable for the interpretation of the canons of the 1983 Code. Salza & Siscoe fail to make the most elementary distinctions when they say in Part II of their Formal Reply: 

    The only distinction that can be made when considering the nature of heresy is between: (1) the sin of heresy that is completely concealed in the heart and has never been externalized at all, and (2) the crime of heresy that has been externalized, even if no one was around to hear it (i.e., external, occult heresy). Cajetan explains that the reason the two are distinct, according to their nature, is because the sin of heresy that remains entirely hidden in the heart can only be judged by God, according to 1 Kings 16:7 - “man seeth the things that appear, but God beholdeth the heart,” whereas the crime of heresy that has been externalized (the external act renders it a crime by its nature) is subject to the judgment of men - even if, due to the circuмstances (e.g., no one around to hear it) it cannot be judged. In other words, the former is not divulged at all (hidden by its nature); the latter is divulged (external by its nature), even if no one heard it. The former is judgeable only by God; the latter can be judged by men. Heresy that has not been externalized at all is a sin, but not a crime; heresy that has been externalized (even if no one was around to hear it), is both a sin and a crime. Hence, the crime of heresy is more restrictive in its meaning than is the sin of heresy; and the external act is what makes it a crime, by its nature. The first distinction they fail to make is between the internal sin and the external sin; and the second is the distinction between the external sin and the crime. The second I have already sufficiently explained above; so it will suffice here to point out firstly, that an act that in its nature is only a crime against divine law, but does not in any manner violate an ecclesiastical law, does not fall under the jurisdiction of the Church in the external forum as a crime; and therefore, is not subject to the public penal judgment of the Church. Secondly, although every crime is an external sin, every exernal sin is not a crime in the sense of an ecclesiastical delict that is subject to the public penal judgment of the Church. Thirdly, the Salza/Siscoe self-contradictory notion of an “externalized internal sin”, is a failed oxymoron, based on the non sequitur that since the formal component of sin is internal; therefore sin is internal, even if it is committed with an external act. This grave error against Catholic moral doctrine fails to recognize that sin is in its essential nature a composite act consisting of two constituent components: matter and form. The form alone is not the sin, but the composite of the form and the matter together constitute the essence of a sin, which specifies its nature. All sins are actions – thoughts, words or deeds; actions which are either internal or external. The matter of the sin is the action itself which transgresses the law of God, as St. Alphonsus (quoted below) explains; and if that action is external, then the sin is an external sin. The classic definition of sin is that of St. Augustine (Contra Faustum XXII 27): «Dictum, factum vel concupitum contra legem æternam». The form, consists in the intention of the will to knowingly commit an act of transgression against the divine law, and is the principle from which the sinful action is brought into being. Internal sin is an action which terminates within the mind in such a manner that there does not proceed from the act of the will an action which is perceptible to the senses. External sin is a transgression of the law of God which begins in the will, as do all sins, and terminates in the external commission of words or deeds that are perceptible to the senses. The form of a sin is only a constitutive component of the sin, but not the sin itself; because the sinful action itself is the matter of the transgression which specifies the nature of the sin. Form without matter is a mere abstraction – a principle without any specific determination of any transgression of divine law; and therefore, there is no sin without both matter and form. Hence, if the action is internal, the sin is internal; but if the action is external, then the sin is an external sin. On the basis of their bizarre doctrine that the sin of heresy is internal, and is of a different specific nature than the external sin, i.e. the crime of heresy; and that only the crime of heresy, but not the act of public heresy considered formally as a sin, separates one from the body of the Church; Salza & Siscoe, heretically interpret the words of Mystici Corporis to mean that only the canonical ecclesiastical crime of notorious heresy (i.e. according to their own uncanonical definition of “notorious heresy”) separates one from membership in the Church by its own nature by severing the juridical bond of membership in the Church, without a public judgment of the Church. From this point of departure, they eventually arrive at the conclusion that for anything less than canonically notorious heresy (according to their own definition of the term), the juridical bond that unites one to the Church is not actually severed until a judgment of the crime is pronounced. In their Formal Reply, they begin by quoting their own book: True or False Pope?, explaining that it is, «the public offense (the crime) of heresy, which, of its nature, severs a person from the Body of the Church with no further censure attached to the offense. (…) Jerome is referring to the nature of the crime [of heresy], which severs one from the body of the Church with no additional censure attached to it. In this sense, the crime of heresy differs in its nature from other crimes, such as physically striking the Pope or procuring an abortion, which are crimes that only sever a person from the Church by virtue of the additional censure attached to the act. » They continue by arguing that only the crime of notorious heresy separates one from the body of the Church: «The Crime of Notorious Heresy: What separates a Catholic from external union with the Body of the Church is not the nature of the sin of heresy (again, as Kramer argues above), but rather the nature of the external act (crime[4]) [[4]The external act of heresy is, by its nature, a crime.] of notorious heresy. » «This is confirmed by Cardinal Billot, who said “only notorious heretics are excluded from the body of the Church.” (De Ecclesia, Thesis II). The reason notorious heresy, of its nature, separates a Catholic from the Body of the Church is because it severs the juridical bond[5] [[5] See Mystici Corporis Christi, No. 70.] The legal separation from the Church has nothing to do with the nature of the sin of heresy, and everything to do with the nature of the public act (crime) of notorious heresy. This is confirmed from the fact that Bellarmine, Cajetan and John of St. Thomas unanimously teach that a notoriously heretical Pope can be deposed, or declared deposed, even if, per accidens, he is not subjectively guilty of the sin. » In the quoted paragraph, Salza & Siscoe have just provided the premises for their own refutation. Firstly, as mentioned above, material heresy, if not qualified by schism, which places one outside the Church, does not separate one from the Church, nor does it effect the loss of office ex natura hæresis, because merely material heresy does not formally oppose the faith of the Church, and therefore does not sever the juridical bond. Salza & Siscoe say, “Bellarmine, Cajetan and John of St. Thomas unanimously teach that a notoriously heretical Pope can be deposed, or declared deposed, even if, per accidens, he is not subjectively guilty of the sin”; but they do not provide any direct quotation or reference to back up this claim; so, from the information provided, it is not possible to determine exactly what these authors really wrote nor determine what was their meaning. In Part III of this work I quote Bellarmine in lib. iv cap. ii of De Romano Pontifice, where he says that all authors, Catholic and non-Catholic are in agreement that a pope can be materially in heresy due to ignorance. So, no matter how notoriously known the materially heretical opinion of a pope may be; he is not properly a heretic, and therefore not a “notorious heretic” as the Church understands that term, unless he visibly separates himself from the Church; thus qualifying his material heresy by a visible act of schism. Secondly, according to the definition of ‘crime’ in canon 2195 § 1, and what is prescribed concerning imputability and dolus of crime in cann. 2199 and 2200; heresy cannot be considered a crime notorious by fact, nor is it even a crime at all if there is no moral imputability, which only exists when there is subjective guilt: If one is not subjectively guilty of the sin, then there is no crime; because, there is lacking in the act the grave moral imputability, which depends directly on the dolus, (i.e. «deliberata voluntas violandi legem») or culpability that are intrinsic to the nature of a crime, as defined in the canons; and without which the material act would not fulfil the conditions necessary for the act to be qualified as, and actually be constituted as a crime. Nevertheless, one who formally defects from the Catholic faith or communion with the Church, expressly rejecting the authority of the Church inculpably, separates himself from visible union with the Church and severs the juridical bond without committing the crime of heresy, schism, or apostasy; since there is no crime without grave moral imputability. Furthermore, mere material heresy on one or several points of doctrine, no matter how publicly or notoriously known, does not separate a Catholic from the Church, nor effect the loss of office; because an officeholder who is only materially in heresy has not defected from the faith by rejecting its formal cause, nor has he intended to leave the Church; nevertheless, given that the external violation of the law has occurred, the dolus of crime, which is defined as the deliberate intention to violate the law (Can. 2200. §1), is presumed in the 1917 Code until the contrary is proven (2200. §2): « Posita externa legis violatione, dolus in foro externo præsumitur, donec contrarium probetur. » In the 1983 Code it is presumed unless it appears otherwise. ( nisi aliud appareat — Can. 1321 § 1) Yet, heresy schismatically qualified as a public act of formal defection from the Church (as opposed to simple heresy), committed by one who happens to not be subjectively guilty of sin but who wilfully departs from the Church, although not having committed an actual crime, is nevertheless visibly and juridically separated from the body of the Church, by the very nature of the defection; and therefore loses office ipso jure (can. 194; 188. 4° in the 1917 Code), apart from any consideration of penal legislation, or the lack of dolus or culpa which would need to be present to make the act a grave and morally imputable crime. Thus, it can be seen that Salza & Siscoe contradict themselves again when they assert, «heresy includes everything from the internal sin alone, to the public crime of notorious heresy - and only the latter [i.e. the crime] automatically severs a person from external union with the Church “without a declaration.” » So, the premise, “the fact that Bellarmine, Cajetan and John of St. Thomas unanimously teach that a notoriously heretical Pope can be deposed, or declared deposed, even if, per accidens, he is not subjectively guilty of the sin,” does not prove or confirm that “the legal separation from the Church has nothing to do with the nature of the sin of heresy, and everything to do with the nature of the public act (crime) of notorious heresy;” – but what it does prove, is that the juridical bond that unites one to the Church as an actual member is sundered ipso jure as a direct result of the fact of the severing of the visible external bond, which is accomplished per se by the act of public defection; regardless of whether or not that act be also a sin or a crime. The public sin of manifest formal heresy, by its very nature as a visible rejection of the formal cause of faith, and not because it is a crime in ecclesiastical law, but because it per se severs the visible external bond of faith that formerly united the heretic to the Church as a visible member, suapte natura dissolves the juridical bond, and separates the heretic from the body of the Church in such a manner that heretics (as Mystici Corporis teaches) “miserably separate themselves” from the body of the Church by that very sin; and not “by legitimate authority” for having committeed a crime. This is precisely what Pius XII taught in Mystici Corporis, and not that the “offense”, (considered only under its formal aspect as a crime in ecclesiastical law), separates one suapte natura from the body of the Church; as Salza & Siscoe heretically assert against the clear and perpetual teaching of the universal and ordinary magisterium of the Church.
          The latter quoted statement of Salza & Siscoe is also plainly false, because not only an act of notorious heresy, but even public heresy separates one from the Church, and as a direct consequence, results in an ipso jure loss of office: In its Prot. N. 10279/2006 (Actus Formalis Defecionis ab Ecclesia Catholica) approved by the Supreme Pontiff, Benedict XVI, the Pontifical Council for Legislative Texts. on 13 March 2006, clarified the Church’s position on formal defection from the Church, explaining, «The concept therein presented is new to canonical legislation and is distinct from the other – rather “virtual” (that is, deduced from behaviors) – forms of “notoriously” or “publicly” abandoning the faith (cfr. can. 171, § 1, 4°; 194, § 1, 2°; 316, § 1; 694, § 1, 1°; 1071, § 1, 4° and § 2). In the latter circuмstances, those who have been baptized or received into the Catholic Church continue to be bound by merely ecclesiastical laws (cfr. can. 11). » The docuмent distinguishes between « forms of “notoriously” or “publicly” abandoning the faith», both of which constitute a defection from the Church, and effect the ipso jure loss of office. This proves that it is not only canonically notorious heretics who are outside the Church, as Salza & Siscoe claim, (quoting Billot, who uses the word according to its common meaning, synonymous with “public”: “only notorious heretics are excluded from the body of the Church.”); but also public heretics. Furthermore, whoever publicly defects from the Catholic faith, apart from any consideration of penal law, crime, or the imputability of the act, loses office ipso jure according to the prescription of Canon 194, § 1, 2°. The ipso jure loss of office takes place “by the action of the law itself”, and as Canon 188. 4° prescribed, “automatically” (ipso facto) and “without any declaration” (sine ulla declaratione), and from “whatsoever offices” (quælibet officia), because the loss of office ultimately does not result from any human law, but from the nature of heresy; as Bellarmine explains in the earlier cited passage: “Nam Patres illi cuм dicunt hæreticos amittere jurisdictionem, non allegant ulla jura humana, quæ etiam forte tunc nulla extabant de hac re: sed argumentantur ex natura hæresis.” Salza & Siscoe continue: «It should be further noted – and this is also a critical point - that notorious heresy does not sever a person from the Church because it is listed as a crime (delict) in canon law, or because of the censure of excommunication that the Church attaches to the crime . . . Rather, notorious heresy separates a person from the Church due to the nature of the public act itself, which severs a juridical bond (i.e., “profession of the faith”). Notorious heresy would sever a person from the Church even if it were not listed as a crime in canon law.” » First of all, if it were not listed as a crime in canon law, then heresy would not be an ecclesiastical delict, and would therefore not be judicable and punishable in the external forum by the Church. Furthermore, as I explained above, it is in the nature of notorious heresy, (as the word ‘notorious’ is commonly understood as interchangeable with ‘public’), as being intrinsically an act of public defection (i.e. as a fact), and not because it is a crime (i.e. a penal offense or delict), that it severs the juridical bond ipso jure apart from any penal laws. Since Salza & Siscoe profess that the external act of heresy is in its nature a crime; according to them, the crime of notorious heresy severs the juridical bond and thus separates heretic from the body of the Church without a declaration – but if the crime is not public and notorious, then, according to Salza & Siscoe, the juridical bond is not severed automatically, but only by a penal sentence pronounced by Church authority: «Now, in the case of a Catholic who is guilty of the sin of heresy and has even externalized his heresy, yet who is not deemed to be a notorious heretic by fact, he would still incur the censure of excommunication ipso facto (since the censure is even incurred by external occult heretics) but, in such a case, it would require a “pronounced judgment of the Church” (rendering him notorious by law), before he would be legally severed from the Body of the Church. The ipso facto excommunication he incurred (in the internal forum) would not, per se, have the juridical effect (in the external forum) of legally separating him from the visible society of the Church since, as Pope Benedict IV said, “a sentence declaratory of the offence is always necessary in the external forum, since in this tribunal no one is presumed to be excommunicated unless convicted of a crime that entails such a penalty.” » The Salza/Siscoe conclusion is a non sequitur, because in the cited passage, Benedict XIV does not state or imply that a declaratory sentence of a penal offense is necessary for the juridical bond with the Church to be severed; but only that no one is to be presumed to have incurred the penalty of excommunication without a declaratory sentence of the crime. For the public crime of heresy, the juridical bond is not severed by the penalty of excommunication, but is severed suapte natura by the act of public heresy. Thus it is that Salza and Siscoe have fallen into heresy for their clearly heretical opinion that holds that a manifest formal heretic who is guilty of the public sin of heresy, but is not guilty of the crime of heresy canonically notorious by fact (as they understand it), remains a member of the Church until he is juridically judged to be a heretic, unless 1) he has left the Church by an explicit act of formal defection, or 2) has explicitly rejected the magisterium as the rule of faith, 3) has expressly admitted that his opinion is heretical. Those guilty of heresy, as heretics are defined in Canon 1325 § 2, if the sin is public (Canon 2197. 1°), have publicly defected from the Catholic faith, and are therefore by the very nature of that act of defection, separated from the body of the Church, apart from the latæ sententiæ excommunication prescribed in the canon. Such a defection provokes the ipso jure removal from ecclesiastical office (Canon 194, § 1, 2°). The proposition, «The ipso facto excommunication he incurred (in the internal forum) would not, per se, have the juridical effect (in the external forum) of legally separating him from the visible society of the Church since, as Pope Benedict IV said, “a sentence declaratory of the offence is always necessary in the external forum, since in this tribunal no one is presumed to be excommunicated unless convicted of a crime that entails such a penalty,» is fallacious in so far as it presumes 1) on the basis of the previous sentence, that the “externalized” public sin of heresy, incurs an ipso facto excommunication “in the internal forum”, because “sin is internal” – and “the Church does not judge internals”. In fact, the public sin of heresy is an external sin, and because it publicly violates an ecclesiastical law, its excommunication pertains to the external forum. However, notwithstanding the fact of the crime of external heresy and the penalty incurred by it, 2) the public sin of heresy, as an act of public defection from the Catholic faith, by its very nature severs the juridical bond of union with the Church apart from any penal censure or any human law, as has been amply demonstrated above, and therefore, as Bellarmine explained in the above quoted passage, “heretics are outside the Church, even before excommunication, and deprived of all jurisdiction, for they are condemned by their own judgment, as the Apostle teaches to Titus; that is, they are cut from the body of the Church without excommunication, as Jerome expresses it.” For this reason, the public sin of manifest formal heresy of itself severs the juridical bond, and thus suapte natura produces the effect of separating the heretic from the visible society of the Church ipso jure, notwithstanding the merely penal requirement mentioned by Benedict XIV, (“a sentence declaratory of the offence is always necessary in the external forum, since in this tribunal no one is presumed to be excommunicated unless convicted of a crime that entails such a penalty”), which is merely necessary to confirm the penalty of excommunication, but not to effect the severing of the juridical bond – because heresy already directly and per se separates one from the Church without any excommunication, i.e. by its very nature; and not “by legitimate authority”, i.e. by excommunication, as Pius XII teaches in Mystici Corporis. It is this last consideration which exposes the absurdity of the Salza/Siscoe thesis which would reason against reason, arguing that since external heresy is in its nature a crime, therefore a public judgment of the Church would be necessary for the juridical bond to be severed, and for the heretic to lose office. However, even if we grant solely for the sake of argument that the external act of heresy is in its nature a crime; it remains that the very act of manifestly formal heresy suapte natura, as an act of severing the bonds of communion, directly and per se severs the heretic visibly from the body of the Church entirely by itself, and therefore directly and per se severs the juridical bond ipso jure and causes the loss of office; and therefore necessarily it does so without any judgment of Church authority. An action which actually accomplishes the severing of the bonds of communion directly and per se, is manifestly not merely dispositive in nature, disposing the heretic to be severed upon judgment by the Church, since the act itself by its own nature accomplishes that severing entirely by itself.

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #460 on: November 14, 2019, 01:24:35 PM »
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  • Mr. G says: 《I would suggest both sides to first list definitions of terms and then once the meaning of terms and definitions are agreed upon, then begin the deabte on specific issues. But if each side has different meanings, then nothing will be resolved.》 Hello Mr. G, You have made a suggestion of something which is not only important, but, as St. Thomas explains, is absolutely necessary to carry on with a discussion involving opposing sides of an argument. In my book, I have very carefully considered and employed the accepted and authoritative definitions. Salza & Siscoe have spun their own definitions; and for the most part conceal their ambiguous positions and meanings, in order to avoid being pinned down and have their errors and deviations from Catholic Doctrine exposed. It is really breath-taking to see how many times they contradict themselves, adopting opposing opinions on some aspect of a question; and then saying they have "qualified" their statement -- or they will say they have no definitive position on a point; but if you examine their writings carefully, you do indeed find their expressed position; which, more often than not, is contrary to Catholic teaching.  


    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #461 on: November 14, 2019, 03:57:41 PM »
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  • Mr. G says: 《I would suggest both sides to first list definitions of terms and then once the meaning of terms and definitions are agreed upon, then begin the deabte on specific issues. But if each side has different meanings, then nothing will be resolved.》 Hello Mr. G, You have made a suggestion of something which is not only important, but, as St. Thomas explains, is absolutely necessary to carry on with a discussion involving opposing sides of an argument. In my book, I have very carefully considered and employed the accepted and authoritative definitions. Salza & Siscoe have spun their own definitions; and for the most part conceal their ambiguous positions and meanings, in order to avoid being pinned down and have their errors and deviations from Catholic Doctrine exposed. It is really breath-taking to see how many times they contradict themselves, adopting opposing opinions on some aspect of a question; and then saying they have "qualified" their statement -- or they will say they have no definitive position on a point; but if you examine their writings carefully, you do indeed find their expressed position; which, more often than not, is contrary to Catholic teaching.  
    Yes, they make clever use of equivocal terms.

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #462 on: November 14, 2019, 05:24:46 PM »
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  • The fallacious Salza/Siscoe argument that external heresy is in its nature an ecclesiastical crime, is that since, according to Canon Law the external act of heresy conforms to the specifications required for an act to qualify as a crime, external heresy is therefore, in its nature a crime. The nonsensical fallacy of their thinking is exposed in the consideration that what pertains to the definition of a crime, does not intrinsically pertain to the nature of exernal heresy (whether considered formally in its specific nature as heresy or materially in its generic nature as an external act); and therefore, the external act of heresy is not in its nature a crime. Heresy in its nature is directly and per se opposed to faith, but it is not in its nature intrinsically opposed to ecclesiastical law, since the penal sanction added to it in ecclesiastical law is an accidental circuмstance extrinsic to its nature. Salza & Siscoe fallaciously argue that since external heresy falls within the parameters of the definition of a crime in canon law (i.e. an external violation of a law or precept, etc.), external heresy is consequently by definition a crime, and therefore it is in its intrinsic nature a crime. The false conclusion is based on an elementary error of logic: External heresy is indeed a crime because it falls within the parameters of the canonical definition of a delict; but that only accidently qualifies external heresy as a crime, because the specifications of the nature of a crime which fall within the canonical definition of a crime do not fall within the canonical or theological definition of heresy. Being a crime is an accidental quality of external heresy due to the circuмstance that external heresy is a delict according to ecclesiastical law; but that quality does not pertain per se to the essential nature of external heresy, because its being an external violation of a penal law does not pertain to the definition of external heresy as it is defined in canon law and moral theology. Furthermore, to be a crime, the external act must be morally imputable; and hence, the merely material and therefore inculpable external act of heresy is not a crime; and therefore, it follows necessarily that the act of external heresy is manifestly not in its nature a crime. Additionally (as is explained below), to be a crime, it does not suffice that it violate a precept of divine law, but it must also violate an ecclesiastical law or precept; and therefore, without a law or precept of ecclesiastical law, or at least a divine law to which is added a penal censure, the external act is not a delict, nor is it punishable in the external forum by the Church. Thus, it is patent, that the external act of heresy per se, is not in its nature a crime.
        be an “externa et moraliter imputabilis legis violatio cui addita sit sanctio canonica saltem indeterminata”. A morally imputable violation of divine law, whether internal or external, is by definition, and therefore in its very nature a sin , but not a crime. It is thus, patently clear that by leaving out the important material in the cited section of Fr. Augustine’s work, Salza & Siscoe deliberately intend to deceive their readers into thinking that Fr. Augustine says exactly the opposite of what he actually says. When one reads the text of Fr. Augustine’s commentary on canon 2195 in its proper context, the fraudulent verbal sleight off hand becomes obvious: On page 10 – 11: «A crime, in ecclesiastical law, is an external and morally imputable transgression of a law to which is attached a canonical sanction, at least in general. Delictum is taken from the word delinquere (de and linquere, to forsake, to leave, to omit) and means an offense in the general sense. However, by common usage the term is restricted to a public offense or crime against the juridical order or law. Therefore it is called a transgression of the law, whether divine or human, i.e., merely ecclesiastical. It is the law, either eternal or positive, that governs order, the relation of man to God and of man to man, and any defection from that order constitutes a frustration of the designs of Providence. » «2. But the transgression which the ecclesiastical law considers is not merely the guilty mind (mens rea), but the act, – i.e., an outward manifestation of a vicious intention, or a breach of the law as externally apprehensible . . . It is essential to the notion of delictum that it be an external act, either of speech or deed, although it is not necessary to be provable. » After the paragraph on externality, Fr. Augustine then elaborates on the legal element on page 12, 13 and 14: «4. But what does the addition “cui addita sit sanctio canonica saltem indeterminata” mean? The transgression is accompanied by penal sanction, at least in general terms. This means that there is neither crime nor punishment without a penal law.4 [“Nullum crimen, nulla poena sine lege poenali,” was the adage of the School; Eichmann, l. c., p. 27.] It is therefore, as stated above, the law which is infringed and which punishes. […] Take, for instance, the reading of forbidden books, which is not punished generally (can. 1395) but only in particular cases (can. 2318); hunting by clergymen (can.138), etc. Yet these forbidden actions cannot be called crimes in the sense of ecclesiastical law.” […] The sanctio canonica indeterminata signifies a penalty to be meted out according to the good pleasure of the judge or superior (can. 2217, § I, n. I). It follows that, although no special penalty is provided for the transgression of a law, yet if that law embodies the provision that the punishment of the transgressor is left to the prudent judgment of the Ordinary, this is sufficient to mark the transgression as a crime, provided that the other necessary marks are not wanting. » Thus, one of the great authorities on Canon Law explains those marks and elements necessary for a sin to be considered a cime in ecclesiastical law; and all of those marks and elements together do not pertain to the intrinsic nature of any external sin. The commentary of the Salamanca Canon Law Faculty explains on page 783, the definition of a crime in essentially the same sense as Fr. Augustine, but expounding on the necessary elements that constitute a delict in ecclesiastical law more concisely and with greater precision: «2195 Tres son los elementos constitutivos del delito por derecho ecelesiástico: a) violación externa de una ley; b) que la violación sea moralmente imputable, y c) que la ley lleve aneja una sanción canonica, por lo menos indeterminada. A estos tres elementos suelen los autores llamarles, respectivamente, elemento objetivo, elemento subjetivo y elemento legal. A dicha terminología nos atendremos, por ser la más común. » Those three elements necessary for a sin to be constituted as a crime in ecclesiastical law are 1) the external violation of a law (the objective element), 2) moral imputability of the violation (the subjective element), 3) a penal sanction connected to the law (legal element). The objective element is comprised of a) an external violation, b) of a law, c) that damages the juridico-social order of the Church . The canon uses the word ‘law’ in the broad sense of an obligatory norm of objective law, which includes in its scope a law properly so-called, or a simple jurisdictional precept or admonition. The law must be ecclesiastical, it does not suffice for a crime that a law merely natural or divine be transgressed, however grave it might be. In order for a natural or divine law to be of ecclesiastical character, it would suffice that the Church sanction it with a canonical penalty. Also pertaining essentially to the nature of a crime, is the legal element, as Fr. Augustine explained (in the portion of the text that Salza & Siscoe left out when quoting it), and summed up with the words, “This means that there is neither crime nor punishment without a penal law.” The catedráticos of the Canon Law faculty of Salamanca elaborate even more fully on this point, and what is most essential is that, «[P]or derecho eclesiástico, lo mismo que ocurre en la legislación de los Estados, la violación no constituye delito, aunque pueda ser pecado externo, si no hay una norma legal objetiva – en sentido lato, según hemos expuesto – que amenace previamente con una pena. De no ser asi, se daría lugar a inumerables arbitrariedades, lo que cedería en ultimo lugar en detrimento mayor y trastorno del orden social. » In this passage, the Salamanca canonists explain why it is that the legal element necessarily pertains essentially to the nature of a crime – and that is because it is necessary for a penalty to be connected to the violation of a law, for the violation to constitute a crime; because it is essential to the preservation of the social order which necessarily requires it. Hence, the mere omission of any mention of the legal element in the characterization of a crime in the 1983 Code (which falls short of a proper definition), cannot imply that the absence of inclusion of the legal element in the canons of the 1983 Code alters the essential definition of a crime; firstly because the legal element pertains intrinsically to the nature of a crime, which lies outside of the power of a legislator to eliminate; and secondly [as the Canon Law faculty of Navarre explain in the passage cited below] because one of the general principles applied in the 1983 revision of the Code of Canon Law was the elimination of all the definitions that were given in the 1917 Code, since they pertain to canonical doctrine rather than legislation; and thus remain applicable for the interpretation of the canons of the 1983 Code. Salza & Siscoe fail to make the most elementary distinctions when they say in Part II of their Formal Reply:

    The only distinction that can be made when considering the nature of heresy is between: (1) the sin of heresy that is completely concealed in the heart and has never been externalized at all, and (2) the crime of heresy that has been externalized, even if no one was around to hear it (i.e., external, occult heresy). Cajetan explains that the reason the two are distinct, according to their nature, is because the sin of heresy that remains entirely hidden in the heart can only be judged by God, according to 1 Kings 16:7 - “man seeth the things that appear, but God beholdeth the heart,” whereas the crime of heresy that has been externalized (the external act renders it a crime by its nature) is subject to the judgment of men - even if, due to the circuмstances (e.g., no one around to hear it) it cannot be judged. In other words, the former is not divulged at all (hidden by its nature); the latter is divulged (external by its nature), even if no one heard it. The former is judgeable only by God; the latter can be judged by men. Heresy that has not been externalized at all is a sin, but not a crime; heresy that has been externalized (even if no one was around to hear it), is both a sin and a crime. Hence, the crime of heresy is more restrictive in its meaning than is the sin of heresy; and the external act is what makes it a crime, by its nature. The first distinction they fail to make is between the internal sin and the external sin; and the second is the distinction between the external sin and the crime. The second I have already sufficiently explained above; so it will suffice here to point out firstly, that an act that in its nature is only a crime against divine law, but does not in any manner violate an ecclesiastical law, does not fall under the jurisdiction of the Church in the external forum as a crime; and therefore, is not subject to the public penal judgment of the Church. Secondly, although every crime is an external sin, every exernal sin is not a crime in the sense of an ecclesiastical delict that is subject to the public penal judgment of the Church. Thirdly, the Salza/Siscoe self-contradictory notion of an “externalized internal sin”, is a failed oxymoron, based on the non sequitur that since the formal component of sin is internal; therefore sin is internal, even if it is committed with an external act. This grave error against Catholic moral doctrine fails to recognize that sin is in its essential nature a composite act consisting of two constituent components: matter and form. The form alone is not the sin, but the composite of the form and the matter together constitute the essence of a sin, which specifies its nature. All sins are actions – thoughts, words or deeds; actions which are either internal or external. The matter of the sin is the action itself which transgresses the law of God, as St. Alphonsus (quoted below) explains; and if that action is external, then the sin is an external sin. The classic definition of sin is that of St. Augustine (Contra Faustum XXII 27): «Dictum, factum vel concupitum contra legem æternam». The form, consists in the intention of the will to knowingly commit an act of transgression against the divine law, and is the principle from which the sinful action is brought into being. Internal sin is an action which terminates within the mind in such a manner that there does not proceed from the act of the will an action which is perceptible to the senses. External sin is a transgression of the law of God which begins in the will, as do all sins, and terminates in the external commission of words or deeds that are perceptible to the senses. The form of a sin is only a constitutive component of the sin, but not the sin itself; because the sinful action itself is the matter of the transgression which specifies the nature of the sin. Form without matter is a mere abstraction – a principle without any specific determination of any transgression of divine law; and therefore, there is no sin without both matter and form. Hence, if the action is internal, the sin is internal; but if the action is external, then the sin is an external sin. On the basis of their bizarre doctrine that the sin of heresy is internal, and is of a different specific nature than the external sin, i.e. the crime of heresy; and that only the crime of heresy, but not the act of public heresy considered formally as a sin, separates one from the body of the Church; Salza & Siscoe, heretically interpret the words of Mystici Corporis to mean that only the canonical ecclesiastical crime of notorious heresy (i.e. according to their own uncanonical definition of “notorious heresy”) separates one from membership in the Church by its own nature by severing the juridical bond of membership in the Church, without a public judgment of the Church. From this point of departure, they eventually arrive at the conclusion that for anything less than canonically notorious heresy (according to their own definition of the term), the juridical bond that unites one to the Church is not actually severed until a judgment of the crime is pronounced. In their Formal Reply, they begin by quoting their own book: True or False Pope?, explaining that it is, «the public offense (the crime) of heresy, which, of its nature, severs a person from the Body of the Church with no further censure attached to the offense. (…) Jerome is referring to the nature of the crime [of heresy], which severs one from the body of the Church with no additional censure attached to it. In this sense, the crime of heresy differs in its nature from other crimes, such as physically striking the Pope or procuring an abortion, which are crimes that only sever a person from the Church by virtue of the additional censure attached to the act. » They continue by arguing that only the crime of notorious heresy separates one from the body of the Church: «The Crime of Notorious Heresy: What separates a Catholic from external union with the Body of the Church is not the nature of the sin of heresy (again, as Kramer argues above), but rather the nature of the external act (crime[4]) [[4]The external act of heresy is, by its nature, a crime.] of notorious heresy. » «This is confirmed by Cardinal Billot, who said “only notorious heretics are excluded from the body of the Church.” (De Ecclesia, Thesis II). The reason notorious heresy, of its nature, separates a Catholic from the Body of the Church is because it severs the juridical bond[5] [[5] See Mystici Corporis Christi, No. 70.] The legal separation from the Church has nothing to do with the nature of the sin of heresy, and everything to do with the nature of the public act (crime) of notorious heresy. This is confirmed from the fact that Bellarmine, Cajetan and John of St. Thomas unanimously teach that a notoriously heretical Pope can be deposed, or declared deposed, even if, per accidens, he is not subjectively guilty of the sin. » In the quoted paragraph, Salza & Siscoe have just provided the premises for their own refutation. Firstly, as mentioned above, material heresy, if not qualified by schism, which places one outside the Church, does not separate one from the Church, nor does it effect the loss of office ex natura hæresis, because merely material heresy does not formally oppose the faith of the Church, and therefore does not sever the juridical bond. Salza & Siscoe say, “Bellarmine, Cajetan and John of St. Thomas unanimously teach that a notoriously heretical Pope can be deposed, or declared deposed, even if, per accidens, he is not subjectively guilty of the sin”; but they do not provide any direct quotation or reference to back up this claim; so, from the information provided, it is not possible to determine exactly what these authors really wrote nor determine what was their meaning. In Part III of this work I quote Bellarmine in lib. iv cap. ii of De Romano Pontifice, where he says that all authors, Catholic and non-Catholic are in agreement that a pope can be materially in heresy due to ignorance. So, no matter how notoriously known the materially heretical opinion of a pope may be; he is not properly a heretic, and therefore not a “notorious heretic” as the Church understands that term, unless he visibly separates himself from the Church; thus qualifying his material heresy by a visible act of schism. Secondly, according to the definition of ‘crime’ in canon 2195 § 1, and what is prescribed concerning imputability and dolus of crime in cann. 2199 and 2200; heresy cannot be considered a crime notorious by fact, nor is it even a crime at all if there is no moral imputability, which only exists when there is subjective guilt: If one is not subjectively guilty of the sin, then there is no crime; because, there is lacking in the act the grave moral imputability, which depends directly on the dolus, (i.e. «deliberata voluntas violandi legem») or culpability that are intrinsic to the nature of a crime, as defined in the canons; and without which the material act would not fulfil the conditions necessary for the act to be qualified as, and actually be constituted as a crime. Nevertheless, one who formally defects from the Catholic faith or communion with the Church, expressly rejecting the authority of the Church inculpably, separates himself from visible union with the Church and severs the juridical bond without committing the crime of heresy, schism, or apostasy; since there is no crime without grave moral imputability. Furthermore, mere material heresy on one or several points of doctrine, no matter how publicly or notoriously known, does not separate a Catholic from the Church, nor effect the loss of office; because an officeholder who is only materially in heresy has not defected from the faith by rejecting its formal cause, nor has he intended to leave the Church; nevertheless, given that the external violation of the law has occurred, the dolus of crime, which is defined as the deliberate intention to violate the law (Can. 2200. §1), is presumed in the 1917 Code until the contrary is proven (2200. §2): « Posita externa legis violatione, dolus in foro externo præsumitur, donec contrarium probetur. » In the 1983 Code it is presumed unless it appears otherwise. ( nisi aliud appareat — Can. 1321 § 1) Yet, heresy schismatically qualified as a public act of formal defection from the Church (as opposed to simple heresy), committed by one who happens to not be subjectively guilty of sin but who wilfully departs from the Church, although not having committed an actual crime, is nevertheless visibly and juridically separated from the body of the Church, by the very nature of the defection; and therefore loses office ipso jure (can. 194; 188. 4° in the 1917 Code), apart from any consideration of penal legislation, or the lack of dolus or culpa which would need to be present to make the act a grave and morally imputable crime. Thus, it can be seen that Salza & Siscoe contradict themselves again when they assert, «heresy includes everything from the internal sin alone, to the public crime of notorious heresy - and only the latter [i.e. the crime] automatically severs a person from external union with the Church “without a declaration.” » So, the premise, “the fact that Bellarmine, Cajetan and John of St. Thomas unanimously teach that a notoriously heretical Pope can be deposed, or declared deposed, even if, per accidens, he is not subjectively guilty of the sin,” does not prove or confirm that “the legal separation from the Church has nothing to do with the nature of the sin of heresy, and everything to do with the nature of the public act (crime) of notorious heresy;” – but what it does prove, is that the juridical bond that unites one to the Church as an actual member is sundered ipso jure as a direct result of the fact of the severing of the visible external bond, which is accomplished per se by the act of public defection; regardless of whether or not that act be also a sin or a crime. The public sin of manifest formal heresy, by its very nature as a visible rejection of the formal cause of faith, and not because it is a crime in ecclesiastical law, but because it per se severs the visible external bond of faith that formerly united the heretic to the Church as a visible member, suapte natura dissolves the juridical bond, and separates the heretic from the body of the Church in such a manner that heretics (as Mystici Corporis teaches) “miserably separate themselves” from the body of the Church by that very sin; and not “by legitimate authority” for having committeed a crime. This is precisely what Pius XII taught in Mystici Corporis, and not that the “offense”, (considered only under its formal aspect as a crime in ecclesiastical law), separates one suapte natura from the body of the Church; as Salza & Siscoe heretically assert against the clear and perpetual teaching of the universal and ordinary magisterium of the Church.
          The latter quoted statement of Salza & Siscoe is also plainly false, because not only an act of notorious heresy, but even public heresy separates one from the Church, and as a direct consequence, results in an ipso jure loss of office: In its Prot. N. 10279/2006 (Actus Formalis Defecionis ab Ecclesia Catholica) approved by the Supreme Pontiff, Benedict XVI, the Pontifical Council for Legislative Texts. on 13 March 2006, clarified the Church’s position on formal defection from the Church, explaining, «The concept therein presented is new to canonical legislation and is distinct from the other – rather “virtual” (that is, deduced from behaviors) – forms of “notoriously” or “publicly” abandoning the faith (cfr. can. 171, § 1, 4°; 194, § 1, 2°; 316, § 1; 694, § 1, 1°; 1071, § 1, 4° and § 2). In the latter circuмstances, those who have been baptized or received into the Catholic Church continue to be bound by merely ecclesiastical laws (cfr. can. 11). » The docuмent distinguishes between « forms of “notoriously” or “publicly” abandoning the faith», both of which constitute a defection from the Church, and effect the ipso jure loss of office. This proves that it is not only canonically notorious heretics who are outside the Church, as Salza & Siscoe claim, (quoting Billot, who uses the word according to its common meaning, synonymous with “public”: “only notorious heretics are excluded from the body of the Church.”); but also public heretics. Furthermore, whoever publicly defects from the Catholic faith, apart from any consideration of penal law, crime, or the imputability of the act, loses office ipso jure according to the prescription of Canon 194, § 1, 2°. The ipso jure loss of office takes place “by the action of the law itself”, and as Canon 188. 4° prescribed, “automatically” (ipso facto) and “without any declaration” (sine ulla declaratione), and from “whatsoever offices” (quælibet officia), because the loss of office ultimately does not result from any human law, but from the nature of heresy; as Bellarmine explains in the earlier cited passage: “Nam Patres illi cuм dicunt hæreticos amittere jurisdictionem, non allegant ulla jura humana, quæ etiam forte tunc nulla extabant de hac re: sed argumentantur ex natura hæresis.” Salza & Siscoe continue: «It should be further noted – and this is also a critical point - that notorious heresy does not sever a person from the Church because it is listed as a crime (delict) in canon law, or because of the censure of excommunication that the Church attaches to the crime . . . Rather, notorious heresy separates a person from the Church due to the nature of the public act itself, which severs a juridical bond (i.e., “profession of the faith”). Notorious heresy would sever a person from the Church even if it were not listed as a crime in canon law.” » First of all, if it were not listed as a crime in canon law, then heresy would not be an ecclesiastical delict, and would therefore not be judicable and punishable in the external forum by the Church. Furthermore, as I explained above, it is in the nature of notorious heresy, (as the word ‘notorious’ is commonly understood as interchangeable with ‘public’), as being intrinsically an act of public defection (i.e. as a fact), and not because it is a crime (i.e. a penal offense or delict), that it severs the juridical bond ipso jure apart from any penal laws. Since Salza & Siscoe profess that the external act of heresy is in its nature a crime; according to them, the crime of notorious heresy severs the juridical bond and thus separates heretic from the body of the Church without a declaration – but if the crime is not public and notorious, then, according to Salza & Siscoe, the juridical bond is not severed automatically, but only by a penal sentence pronounced by Church authority: «Now, in the case of a Catholic who is guilty of the sin of heresy and has even externalized his heresy, yet who is not deemed to be a notorious heretic by fact, he would still incur the censure of excommunication ipso facto (since the censure is even incurred by external occult heretics) but, in such a case, it would require a “pronounced judgment of the Church” (rendering him notorious by law), before he would be legally severed from the Body of the Church. The ipso facto excommunication he incurred (in the internal forum) would not, per se, have the juridical effect (in the external forum) of legally separating him from the visible society of the Church since, as Pope Benedict IV said, “a sentence declaratory of the offence is always necessary in the external forum, since in this tribunal no one is presumed to be excommunicated unless convicted of a crime that entails such a penalty.” » The Salza/Siscoe conclusion is a non sequitur, because in the cited passage, Benedict XIV does not state or imply that a declaratory sentence of a penal offense is necessary for the juridical bond with the Church to be severed; but only that no one is to be presumed to have incurred the penalty of excommunication without a declaratory sentence of the crime. For the public crime of heresy, the juridical bond is not severed by the penalty of excommunication, but is severed suapte natura by the act of public heresy. Thus it is that Salza and Siscoe have fallen into heresy for their clearly heretical opinion that holds that a manifest formal heretic who is guilty of the public sin of heresy, but is not guilty of the crime of heresy canonically notorious by fact (as they understand it), remains a member of the Church until he is juridically judged to be a heretic, unless 1) he has left the Church by an explicit act of formal defection, or 2) has explicitly rejected the magisterium as the rule of faith, 3) has expressly admitted that his opinion is heretical. Those guilty of heresy, as heretics are defined in Canon 1325 § 2, if the sin is public (Canon 2197. 1°), have publicly defected from the Catholic faith, and are therefore by the very nature of that act of defection, separated from the body of the Church, apart from the latæ sententiæ excommunication prescribed in the canon. Such a defection provokes the ipso jure removal from ecclesiastical office (Canon 194, § 1, 2°). The proposition, «The ipso facto excommunication he incurred (in the internal forum) would not, per se, have the juridical effect (in the external forum) of legally separating him from the visible society of the Church since, as Pope Benedict IV said, “a sentence declaratory of the offence is always necessary in the external forum, since in this tribunal no one is presumed to be excommunicated unless convicted of a crime that entails such a penalty,» is fallacious in so far as it presumes 1) on the basis of the previous sentence, that the “externalized” public sin of heresy, incurs an ipso facto excommunication “in the internal forum”, because “sin is internal” – and “the Church does not judge internals”. In fact, the public sin of heresy is an external sin, and because it publicly violates an ecclesiastical law, its excommunication pertains to the external forum. However, notwithstanding the fact of the crime of external heresy and the penalty incurred by it, 2) the public sin of heresy, as an act of public defection from the Catholic faith, by its very nature severs the juridical bond of union with the Church apart from any penal censure or any human law, as has been amply demonstrated above, and therefore, as Bellarmine explained in the above quoted passage, “heretics are outside the Church, even before excommunication, and deprived of all jurisdiction, for they are condemned by their own judgment, as the Apostle teaches to Titus; that is, they are cut from the body of the Church without excommunication, as Jerome expresses it.” For this reason, the public sin of manifest formal heresy of itself severs the juridical bond, and thus suapte natura produces the effect of separating the heretic from the visible society of the Church ipso jure, notwithstanding the merely penal requirement mentioned by Benedict XIV, (“a sentence declaratory of the offence is always necessary in the external forum, since in this tribunal no one is presumed to be excommunicated unless convicted of a crime that entails such a penalty”), which is merely necessary to confirm the penalty of excommunication, but not to effect the severing of the juridical bond – because heresy already directly and per se separates one from the Church without any excommunication, i.e. by its very nature; and not “by legitimate authority”, i.e. by excommunication, as Pius XII teaches in Mystici Corporis. It is this last consideration which exposes the absurdity of the Salza/Siscoe thesis which would reason against reason, arguing that since external heresy is in its nature a crime, therefore a public judgment of the Church would be necessary for the juridical bond to be severed, and for the heretic to lose office. However, even if we grant solely for the sake of argument that the external act of heresy is in its nature a crime; it remains that the very act of manifestly formal heresy suapte natura, as an act of severing the bonds of communion, directly and per se severs the heretic visibly from the body of the Church entirely by itself, and therefore directly and per se severs the juridical bond ipso jure and causes the loss of office; and therefore necessarily it does so without any judgment of Church authority. An action which actually accomplishes the severing of the bonds of communion directly and per se, is manifestly not merely dispositive in nature, disposing the heretic to be severed upon judgment by the Church, since the act itself by its own nature accomplishes that severing entirely by itself.

    Do you actually expect anyone to read the entirety of what you've written above? It's ridiculously long. We trads don't have that much of an attention span.
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline PaxChristi2

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #463 on: November 14, 2019, 09:16:40 PM »
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  • I would suggest both sides to first list definitions of terms and then once the meaning of terms and definitions are agreed upon, then begin the deabte on specific issues. But if each side has different meanings, then nothing will be resolved.
    Here’s the definition from Fr. Augustine’s book:
     

    Quote
    TITLE XI
    CRIMES AGAINST FAITH AND UNITY …
    APOSTASY, HERESY, AND SCHISM …
     
    The crime of apostasy, heresy, or schism must be exteriorly manifested, either in words, writings, or acts which betray defection from the Christian Church, denial of some article of faith, or separation from the unity of the Church, according to canon 2195 §1; because merely internal apostasy, heresy, or schism do not belong to the external forum and therefore are not intended here.” (Fr. Augustine, Commentary on the New Code of Canon Law).

    Fr. Augustine referenced 2195 §1 above.  Here again is how that canon defines the nature of a crime, followed by Fr. Augustine’s commentary:
     
    Quote
    “CIC 1917, Book V Part I defines "the nature of a crime Can. 2195. §1: A crime is an external and morally imputable transgression of a law to which is attached a canonical sanction.”
     
    “PART I ON CRIMES, TITLE I, NATURE AND DIVISION OF CRIME, CAN. 2195 (…)
     
    “The Code first defines crime, then describes its qualities and guilt, and then enumerates the various kinds of crimes, so far as the internal forum and external, the ecclesiastical and civil court, are concerned. A crime, in ecclesiastical law, is an external and morally imputable transgression of a law to which is attached a canonical sanction, at least in general.
     
    1. Delictum is taken from the word delinquere (de and linquere, to forsake, to leave, to omit) and means an offence in the general sense. However, by common usage the term is restricted to a public offence or crime against the juridical order or law. Therefore it is called a transgression of the law, whether divine or human, i. e., merely ecclesiastical. It is the law, either eternal or positive, that governs order, the relation of man to God and of man to man, and any defection from that order constitutes a frustration of the designs of Providence.
     
    2. But the transgression which the ecclesiastical law considers is not merely the guilty mind (mens rea), but the act, i. e., an outward manifestation of a vicious intention, or a breach of the law as externally apprehensible. This may be positive or negative, or, in other words, it may consist in an act or in an omission. Thus a sacrilege is a positive act, but neglect of pastoral duties is an omission. It is essential to the notion of delictum that it be an external act, either of speech or deed, although it need not necessarily be provable.
     
    3. Externality, however, does not exclude imputability, and hence the definition contains the addition, morally imputable. The vicious act, therefore, presupposes a guilty mind (mens rea). Why? A transgression of the law is an act, and the transgressor, therefore, is an agent, and when that agent is intelligent and free, and acts as such, we say that the effects caused by such an agent are to be imputed or credited to him. Because an intelligent being has dominion over its actions, it is capable of moral proprietorship in the praise or blame justly due to its deliberate acts, according as they are seen to be good or bad. In this feature crime shares the notion of sin, for every crime is a sin, though not conversely. For a sin (e. g., mental apostasy or heresy) may be committed by the mind only, whereas a crime supposes an external act.” (Fr. Augustine, Commentary on the New Code of Canon Law).
     

    The underlined part above is what I mean by the sin vis-a-vis the crime of heresy.  The crime of heresy is the sin of heresy combined with an external act of heresy.  When the two are joined together, the heretical act meets the canonical definition of “the nature of a crime” (Canon 2195 §1).  It is as simple as that.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #464 on: November 14, 2019, 09:34:12 PM »
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  • So we are now at page 33 in a thread in which, for some reason, nobody is willing (or able?) to provide the Latin and English text (and citations) of Bellarmine's actual words, demonstrating him to have taught that the Church must issue at least one declaration (i.e., that of the fact of the pope's heresy), before said pope would fall from the chair ipso facto, or not.

    Would not a reasonable person become skeptical by now that such words really exist, when the mere copy/paste of them here would end the sedevacantist reliance of Bellarmine forever?

    I begin to wonder.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."