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Author Topic: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!  (Read 47106 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
« Reply #390 on: November 12, 2019, 07:36:16 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on November 12, 2019, 07:26:46 PM
    Where does Fr. Chazal say that the Popes are manifest heretics, and that they lack authority altogether? He has said that Francis is a heretic, but we all agree with that.

    In his video, his first on the subject that went on for over an hour.
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    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #391 on: November 12, 2019, 07:49:04 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on November 12, 2019, 07:00:37 PM
    Absolutely, positively, 100% wrong.  The fact that +Bellarmine quotes Scripture, means that Church officials are involved in rebuking the pope. 
    No No No, I just demonstrated that you are mistaken about this. Saint Robert did not quote Saint Paul for the reason you stated, I thought you understood that?
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    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #392 on: November 12, 2019, 07:51:18 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on November 12, 2019, 07:36:16 PM
    In his video, his first on the subject that went on for over an hour.



    1:53 - 2:06, "open public notorious heretic".

    6:50 - 6:55 "manifest heretic"

    7:00 - 7:06 "we do grant that this pope is a manifest and public heretic"
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #393 on: November 12, 2019, 07:55:37 PM »
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    • 11:24 - 11:30 "Paul VI is a Mason and also gαy".

    11:37-11:41 "possibly [Sister Lucia] was silenced and replaced after that"
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #394 on: November 12, 2019, 08:01:22 PM »
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    • Beginning at 13:15 - 13:40 ... he falsely characterizes St. Benedict Center as a group of "Feeneyite sedevacantists" who claim that Pius XII actually consecrated Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary.

    He's clearly talking about the Dimond Brothers here.
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #395 on: November 12, 2019, 08:03:06 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on November 12, 2019, 07:51:18 PM


    1:53 - 2:06, "open public notorious heretic".

    6:50 - 6:55 "manifest heretic"

    7:00 - 7:06 "we do grant that this pope is a manifest and public heretic"

    Okay, I accept that he used the words.."manifest heretic."

    How about where you said that he said the manifest heretic popes lack all authority?
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #396 on: November 12, 2019, 08:07:41 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on November 12, 2019, 08:03:06 PM
    Okay, I accept that he used the words.."manifest heretic."

    How about where you said that he said the manifest heretic popes lack all authority?

    Haven't gotten to that part of the video yet. Listening in the background while doing something else.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #397 on: November 12, 2019, 08:14:13 PM »
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    • Quote
    Saint Robert did not quote Saint Paul for the reason you stated,
    Please explain the reference to St Paul and the use of the word "order" and the use of the phrase "2 warnings", in reference to obstinacy.  You already admitted that no layman, or priest, or bishop can decide obstinacy in a pope.  Then you contradictorily said that obstinacy is "obvious".  Obvious to whom?  Obstinacy is the KEY REQUIREMENT to +Bellarmine's manifest heresy definition.  Please explain how this is determined, and how Scripture fits into this.
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #398 on: November 12, 2019, 08:17:09 PM »
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    • According to theologians post Bellarmine and pre Vatican II, manifest/public heretics depends on the large number of people their heresy is made manifest to.  It does not matter if they are ignorant (material) nor willful (formal).  See Van Noort Dogmatic Theology, Members of the Church.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #399 on: November 12, 2019, 08:21:11 PM »
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    • Quote
    7:00 - 7:06 "we do grant that this pope is a manifest and public heretic"
    Ok, but +Bellarmine ties manifest AND obstinacy together, before office is lost "ipso facto".  I agree that all of the V2 popes were manifest (in the typical use of the word).  I do not agree they are manifest in the sense that +Bellarmine uses the word.
    .
    Really, it doesn't matter, because Fr Chazal is not arguing that they have lost their office (being he holds they still retain the material office), so I can agree with him that they are public heretics, but not obstinate (only because none of us can determine obstinacy).  I think him using the term "manifest" is confusing, but that's a minor quibble.
    .
    PaxChristi, where do you agree/disagree with Fr Chazal?  Fr's main opponent is the dogmatic-sedeism of Fr Cekada, so I don't see how his view is totally opposite of yours.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #400 on: November 12, 2019, 08:23:58 PM »
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    • Quote
    According to theologians post Bellarmine and pre Vatican II, manifest/public heretics depends on the large number of people their heresy is made manifest to.  It does not matter if they are ignorant (material) nor willful (formal).  See Van Noort Dogmatic Theology, Members of the Church.
    And that is why many sedes wrongly interpret +Bellarmine and assume that a "manifest" heretic (i.e. heresy is made public) lose their office automatically.  They don't use the word 'manifest' in the same sense that +Bellarmine was using it.  This is Quo Vadis' problem, but he can't see it (or won't admit it).
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    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #401 on: November 12, 2019, 08:53:32 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on November 12, 2019, 08:14:13 PM
    Please explain the reference to St Paul and the use of the word "order" and the use of the phrase "2 warnings", in reference to obstinacy.  You already admitted that no layman, or priest, or bishop can decide obstinacy in a pope.  Then you contradictorily said that obstinacy is "obvious".  Obvious to whom?  Obstinacy is the KEY REQUIREMENT to +Bellarmine's manifest heresy definition.  Please explain how this is determined, and how Scripture fits into this.
    This is getting frustrating. As I stated above:
    You make his inclusion of the Pauline warning as somehow part of his argument when, in fact, his use of Saint Pauls words are there to support his teaching that as soon as a heretic becomes “manifestly obstinate” he ceases to be a member of the Church. In the Case of a “manifestly heretical Pope”, he is “ipso facto deposed”. Case closed! 


    In no way is he saying that the two warnings are absolutely necessary to depose a heretic pope, he is simply showing that his argument is based on the authority of Saint Paul by equating “two warnings” with “manifestly obstinate”. That is why he uses the words: “that is”

    Yes, no one can judge the pope authoritatively . Period.

     Any person can judge someone a heretic who obstinately, publicly and manifestly promotes and embraces heresy. That is a private judgement. That is the judgement I am making. 
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    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #402 on: November 12, 2019, 09:46:38 PM »
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    • Quote
    as soon as a heretic becomes “manifestly obstinate” he ceases to be a member of the Church. In the Case of a “manifestly heretical Pope”, he is “ipso facto deposed”.
    How do we know that a person is manifestly obstinate, if not by a rebuke/warning?  You are not explaining anything, you just keep repeating the same thing.  Under your definition, St Paul would have deemed St Peter as an obstinate heretic and, with no warnings at all, judged him to have lost his office.  That’s ridiculous.  
    .

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    by equating “two warnings” with “manifestly obstinate”.
    Exactly.  2 warnings = Church officials determine obstinacy = Church process.  
    .
    2 warnings may not be EXACTLY necessary but...the process of rebuking IS NECESSARY.  This is the whole point of the citation of Scripture - to show HOW St Paul ACTED towards a wayward St Peter.
    .

    Quote
    no one can judge the pope authoritatively . Period.
    +Bellarmine and Torquemada and others say that Church officials can discern if the pope is obstinate in heresy, as St Paul discerned that St Peter was not.  If the pope is found obstinate, then he’s no longer pope and immediately loses office.
    .
    Quote
    Any person can judge someone a heretic who obstinately,
    How have you determined that the pope is obstinate, which is a judgment of the internal forum?  Have you warned him twice?  Please explain.
    .

    Quote
    That is a private judgement. That is the judgement I am making.
    If you’ve already admitted that +Bellarmine authorizes no laymen, priest or bishop to determine obstinacy, then by what authority do you act?
    .
    If your judgment is a private one, what is the purpose of it?  If you can’t impose your judgment on anyone else, what’s the point?  What do you solve in reality by this imaginary action?
    .
    Thank you for admitting that your opinion carries no legal, moral, ecclesiastical, theological or real-life weight.  
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #403 on: November 13, 2019, 04:35:18 AM »
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    • St Peter was not a heretic of any sort and St Paul never thought he was a heretic.  He was guilty of sin.  Read Haydock.
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #404 on: November 13, 2019, 04:47:01 AM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on November 12, 2019, 08:23:58 PM
    And that is why many sedes wrongly interpret +Bellarmine and assume that a "manifest" heretic (i.e. heresy is made public) lose their office automatically.  They don't use the word 'manifest' in the same sense that +Bellarmine was using it.  This is Quo Vadis' problem, but he can't see it (or won't admit it).
    Are you saying that the Catholic theologians that came after St Robert Bellarmine are disagreeing with him?  Why don't theologians include "warnings" in their discussion of what constitutes a manifest heretic?  Why do theologians simply say that manifest heretics are not members of the Church with no mention of the Church needing to give them "warnings" to become said manifest heretics?  What theologian after Bellarmine states that a manifest heretic requires warnings?   
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