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Author Topic: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!  (Read 46958 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
« Reply #375 on: November 12, 2019, 05:44:39 PM »
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  • Fr. Boni:  " and the adhesion to Pope Francis of the people of God cannot be put in any way in doubt."

    :laugh1:

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #376 on: November 12, 2019, 05:46:57 PM »
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  • Papal Infallibility only prevents the Pope from erring when he defines a doctrine, ex cathedra, ...

    Wrong doctrine.  Indefectibility prevents the Church's Magisterium and Universal Discipline from becoming thoroughly corrupt and leading souls to hell.

    St. Robert Bellarmine would have you burned at the stake as a heretic for saying otherwise.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #377 on: November 12, 2019, 05:50:08 PM »
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  • Not even you R&R Trads "adhere to" Francis.  Apart from the lip service you pay, you completely reject him and consider him unrecognizable as a fellow believer.

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #378 on: November 12, 2019, 05:54:58 PM »
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  • On the Deposition of a Pope (continued...)

    The Opinion of Cajetan

    John of St. Thomas wrote:

    "Thus the opinion of Cajetan contains three points:

    1. The first is that the heretical Pope is not deprived of the Pontificate and deposed by mere fact of heresy, considered separately.

    2. The second is that the Church has neither the power nor superiority over the pope about his power, even in the case of heresy; never is the church's power above the power of the Pope absolutely.

    3. The third is that the Church has for its object:

    + the application of the papal power, in designating him by election, and

    + the separation of the power with such a person, by declaring him heretical and to be avoided by the Faithful.

    Therefore, although the declaration of the crime is like an antecedent disposition preceding the deposition itself and that it relates only in a ministerial manner; insofar as it reaches the disposition, so it aims immediately to the form: in the same manner as in the generation and corruption of man, the begetter neither produces or educts the form, and the second one the separation, immediately reaching the dispositions of the matter to the form, and through them, the form.

    Cajetan's FIRST POINT:

    The heretical pope is not deprived of the pontificate and deposed by the mere fact of heresy, considered separately.

    The first point is obvious and is not legitimately opposed to Bellarmine. His truth appears thus:

    - First, because the Pope, no matter how real and public may be his heresy, by the moment he is eager to be corrected, he cannot be deposed, and the Church cannot depose him by divine right, for she cannot nor should she avoid him since the Apostle [Paul] says, "avoid the heretic after the first and second correction;" therefore, before the first and second correction he should not be avoided, and consequently he should not be deposed; therefore it is wrong to say that the Pope is deposed (ipso facto) as soon as he is a public heretic, but not yet corrected by the Church, nor declared incorrigible.

    - Then, because (as Azorius rightly noted) any heretical Bishop, no matter how visible his heresy, and although he incurs and excommunication, does not ipso facto lose the Episcopal jurisdiction and power until he is declared [such] by the Church and deposed; indeed only the excommunicated or those who manifestly struck a cleric (manifesti percussores clerici). Therefore, if a bishop or some other prelate loses not ipso facto his power by the mere external heresy, why would the Pope lose it [even] before the Church's declaration? Especially since the Pope cannot incur excommunication: on the one hand, no excommunication at all - I suppose - is carried by divine law itself; on the other hand, he cannot be excommunicated by divine right, because he is superior to any human right.

    The Church has neither the power nor superiority over the Pope concerning his power of Pope, even in case of heresy."

    http://www.dominicansavrille.us/on-the-deposition-of-the-pope-part-1-of-2/


    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #379 on: November 12, 2019, 06:01:27 PM »
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  • Msgr. Fenton:
    Quote
    ... God has given the Holy Father a kind of infallibility distinct from the charism of doctrinal infallibility in the strict sense. He has so constructed and ordered the Church that those who follow the directives given to the entire kingdom of God on earth will never be brought into the position of ruining themselves spiritually through this obedience. Our Lord dwells within His Church in such a way that those who obey disciplinary and doctrinal directives of this society can never find themselves displeasing God through their adherence to the teachings and the commands given to the universal Church militant. Hence there can be no valid reason to discountenance even the non-infallible teaching authority of Christ’s vicar on earth.
    ...
    It is, of course, possible that the Church might come to modify its stand on some detail of teaching presented as non-infallible matter in a papal encyclical. The nature of the auctoritas providentiae doctrinalis within the Church is such, however, that this fallibility extends to questions of relatively minute detail or of particular application. The body of doctrine on the rights and duties of labor, on the Church and State, or on any other subject treated extensively in a series of papal letters directed to and normative for the entire Church militant could not be radically or completely erroneous. The infallible security Christ wills that His disciples should enjoy within His Church is utterly incompatible with such a possibility.

    You guys will one day regret that you would rather smear the Holy Catholic Church than to denounce the heretically-depraved criminal Bergoglio, undoubtedly a deliberate conscious infiltrator and destroyer, and his predecessors.

    Siscoe and Salza, your book will be a blight upon your names when the smoke clears and God reveals to everyone who these people are.  Nor will you be exonerated, as St. Vincent Ferrer was due to his being a material error.  You err gravely with regard to your impious denigration of the Holy Catholic Church by imputing these evil doctrines and harmful discipline to her rather than to her enemies.  This savors of a sin against the Holy Spirit.  Your attempt to portray Holy Mother Church as a harlot.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #380 on: November 12, 2019, 06:06:53 PM »
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  • I find it fascinating and, at the same time disturbing, that you hold that the Church cannot adhere to a false pope, but then out of the opposite side of your mouth claim that the Church (and even the Pope) can adhere to false doctrine.  That same infallibility/indefectibility of the Church that informs the one also informs the other, so you are in contradiction with yourselves.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #381 on: November 12, 2019, 06:08:21 PM »
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  • I don’t see how any of what PC2 has said contradicts Fr Chazal.  I’d really like to know the result of their correspondence.  PaxChristi2, can you please summarize?
    .
    Secondly, UPA could still apply to +Francis, or any of the V2 popes, because (let’s not forget) the change in election laws of St Pius X and Pius XII.  We must assume, based on the law, that their elections were universally accepted but this isn’t a problem, because immediately afterwards, they were (or resumed their former) excommunication.  So, their spiritual office is impaired; material office intact.  Again, Fr Chazal’s view explains this “problem”.
    .


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #382 on: November 12, 2019, 06:10:47 PM »
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  • I don’t see how any of what PC2 has said contradicts Fr Chazal.  I’d really like to know the result of their correspondence.  PaxChristi2, can you please summarize?

    I've already explained this.  S&S hold that the Pope retains full papal authority, except for a very limited set of things, arbitrarily chosen, like whether he can dissolve a General Council or excommunicate his adversaries.

    Father Chazal says that he is impounded completely and lacks the ability to exercise any authority whatsoever.  Father Chazal's position makes 100x more sense.  Father Chazal has asserted that these heretical V2 popes (and he states that they are obviously manifest heretics) are already vitandus.

    All these things are there in his famous lengthy video exposition.

    So Father Chazal concedes that these men are manifest heretics, states that they are already vitandi, and therefore that they lack authority altogether.  That's completely different than what S&S claim.


    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #383 on: November 12, 2019, 06:25:31 PM »
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  •  If "two warnings" are not ABSOLUTELY necessary, it is logical that a SIMILAR act by Church officials must still take place.  In other words, "manifest obstinacy" HAS to be decided/discerned by Church officials, by some means.  Nowhere does +Bellarmine suggest that laymen or priests or even Bishops can privately decide this important question.

    I appreciate your honesty, thank you! It seems to me that this is where your problem lies. You say that: “manifest obstinacy HAS to be decided by the Church”. Then you say that: “ Nowhere does +Bellarmine suggest that laymen or priests or even Bishops can privately decide this important question.”

     I grant you that, but NOWHERE does St. Robert suggest that the Church (a council) has the authority to decide it as if they are above the pope. In other words, a council cannot depose a pope, however it can declare that he has been deposed. This is an important distinction.

    When St. Robert and other authorities use the word manifest, it simply means that the heresy is obvious to all. You are complicating something that is quite easy to grasp. This is demonstrated by his use of the term “ipso facto”, by the fact itself.


    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #384 on: November 12, 2019, 06:26:13 PM »
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  • Dr. Chojnowski puts it more eloquently that I did:

    Quote
    Where is the protection of the Holy Ghost, then, for his Magisterium? If that is the Church now then the Church is one of heresy and apostasy, liturgical evil, denial of the fundamental moral law, and syncretism. The Church your arguments push us towards is more the Harlot of Babylon than the Immaculate Bride of Christ. But the Church is the IMMACULATE Bride of Christ. In its doctrines, worship and practice it is totally pure of any defect. Are you destroying the very nature of the Church in order to save the claims of Francis?

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #385 on: November 12, 2019, 06:33:05 PM »
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  • Quote
    So Father Chazal concedes that these men are manifest heretics

    I don't recall him saying that.  He said they are clearly heretics.  If he did use the word 'manifest', I would challenge him that he is using the term 'manifest' in a different sense that did +Bellarmine, who beyond question, viewed 'manifest' as connected with 'obstinate'.  Since Fr Chazal (nor you, nor I, nor any other Trad) is able to discern obstinacy, then we also cannot determine manifest heresy, in the sense used by +Bellarmine. 


    Offline Don Paolo

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #386 on: November 12, 2019, 06:46:36 PM »
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  • "PaxVobis2" (or is that Robert Siscoe), again resorts to the fraudulent tactic of a partial quotation out of context in order to invert my meaning and repeat the old and refuted Robert Siscoe lie: 《So, Fr. Kramer doesn't hold the 5th Opinion as he claims (i.e., "that a manifest heretic is ipso facto deposed").  He holds the 2nd ("that anentirely occult heretic is ipso facto deposed"), which Bellarmine himself refuted. 

         Here on this thread, and more fully in my book, I have explained my position on opinion no. 2, so PC2 has no excuse: He is deliberately engaging in deceotion by inverting my meaning. I have explained that according to Bellarmine, a heretic is an incapable subject of the form of the papacy. Bellarmine explains the intrinsic metaphysical reason why one who is without faith is incapable of being pope; and consequently he says that  a pope who would fall into heresy would straightaway cease to be pope. However, he says this cannot actually happen, because of an extrinsic reason, namely, the effect would bring about the defection of the Church. Thus, opinion no. 2 is false because both its premise (it is premised on the metaphysical impossibility of there being a heretic pope), and the effect that would result from it are impossible. Since its premise is impossible, opinion no. 1 is necessarily true. Opinion no. 1 is the true opinion in actual reality. Opinion no. 2 is not applicable in reality, although in theory as a purely abstract hypothesis, its outcome would be of strict metyphysical necessity. At the same time, its metaphysically necessary outcome would be theologically impossible, because it would provoke the defection of the Church. Thus opinion no. 2 is ncessarily false because it has no possible applicability in reality. If it were possible for a pope to be a heretic, a manifest heretic would lose office automatically; but since it is not possible for a pope to be a heretic (possible according to nature, but not possible in view of the promise made by Christ that the pontiff's faith will not fail), opinion no. 5 is valid only as a purely abstract hypothesis.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #387 on: November 12, 2019, 07:00:37 PM »
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  • Quote
    I appreciate your honesty, thank you! It seems to me that this is where your problem lies. You say that: “manifest obstinacy HAS to be decided by the Church”.
    This is what +Bellarmine says too, as he quotes St Paul and says that St Paul ORDERS a 2-warning process (and/or maybe something similar).  Let's note that +Bellarmine is basing his opinion on Scripture; he uses the word "orders" (i.e. commands), which denotes authority, which authority comes from both St Paul's example towards St Peter (i.e. a Church official rebukes the pope) AND the authority comes from the infallible bible itself.

    Quote
    Then you say that: “ Nowhere does +Bellarmine suggest that laymen or priests or even Bishops can privately decide this important question.”   I grant you that,
    Good.

    Quote
    but NOWHERE does St. Robert suggest that the Church (a council) has the authority to decide it as if they are above the pope. In other words, a council cannot depose a pope, however it can declare that he has been deposed. This is an important distinction.
    You're skipping ahead in the process.  +Bellarmine is talking about deciding manifest obstinate heresy.  This is STEP #1 - determining obstinacy.  Nothing happens, from a governmental/material/office aspect, until obstinacy is determined.
    .
    Step 1b:  HOW is obstinacy determined?  Scripturally, as +Bellarmine quotes, we use St Paul's example (i.e. a church official) where he rebuked St Peter (a true pope).  In this case, St Peter recanted his error and was not obstinate, so he kept his office.  But if a heretic pope did not recant, after some process, then Church officials would deem him a heretic.
    .
    Step 1c:  By what MEANS do Church officials use to rebuke/warn a pope of his error?  It could be a council.  It could be a committee.  It could be an official letter (i.e. the "dubia" letter).
    .
    Step 1d:  Once church officials rebuke the pope, AND HE DOES NOT RECANT HIS ERRORS, then they declare him an obstinate, manifest heretic.
    .
    ....Ok, now that Church officials have declared the pope a manifest heretic...now +Bellarmine's penalties kick in.
    .
    Step 2:  the officially-declared manifest heretic immediately loses his status as the pope.  He is now a former pope, since he has "judged himself" as being a non-Catholic by his own obstinacy.
    .
    Step 2a:  +Bellarmine, at this point, says that the former pope loses his office "ipso facto"; no deposition required.  Cajetan says that a 2nd declaration is necessary to depose the former pope (or declare that he was already deposed).  Whatever.  Potatoe, potato.  It's all semantics at this point.
    .
    In no way do the Church officials (or any council) depose the pope.  They only rebuke and determine if he is obstinate.  If he is obstinate, then the former-pope judges himself and loses office immediately, since the penalties of canon law now apply to him, as he is no longer "above canon law" since he's no longer the pope.  Thus, once he is proven to be obstinate in error, a former pope "ipso facto" loses his office. 


    Quote
    When St. Robert and other authorities use the word manifest, it simply means that the heresy is obvious to all. You are complicating something that is quite easy to grasp. This is demonstrated by his use of the term “ipso facto”, by the fact itself.
    Absolutely, positively, 100% wrong.  The fact that +Bellarmine quotes Scripture, means that Church officials are involved in rebuking the pope.  "Obviousness" does not mean obstinate; "obviousness" only relates to the fact of being in error.  Obstinate means the STUBBORN HOLDING TO ERROR, after being shown the truth.  This "showing of the truth" or "correction" or "warning" or "rebuking" must be done in an official, formal capacity.  Because the holding office and canon law are official, formal legal issues.
    .
    Neither you, nor I, nor anyone but the Cardinals can officially, formally correct, warn, or rebuke the pope.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #388 on: November 12, 2019, 07:23:19 PM »
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  • Quote
    When St. Robert and other authorities use the word manifest, it simply means that the heresy is obvious to all.
    +Bellarmine uses both manifest AND obstinate together.  Heresy can be obvious, sure.  But obstinacy is not obvious, because it's of the internal forum.  If +Bellarmine meant that manifest heresy can be "obvious to all" then that would contradict Scripture.  St Paul didn't see St Peter's error and go "Ok, everyone, St Peter is obviously wrong, so he's no longer pope."  No.  St Paul saw the obvious error, and then had to determine obstinacy in error, so he rebuked St Peter and showed him the truth.  Without this rebuke/warning process, obstinacy is not proved.  Without obstinacy being proved, the heresy is material only, not manifest (as +Bellarmine uses the word...others use it differently).

    Quote
    This is demonstrated by his use of the term “ipso facto”, by the fact itself.
    "By the fact" that a person is proved to be OBSTINATE, then they lose their office immediately.  Not before.  How are they proven to be obstinate?  As +Bellarmine says, using the 2 warnings, as Scripture "orders" us to use, by way of St Paul.

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #389 on: November 12, 2019, 07:26:46 PM »
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  • I've already explained this.  S&S hold that the Pope retains full papal authority, except for a very limited set of things, arbitrarily chosen, like whether he can dissolve a General Council or excommunicate his adversaries.

    Father Chazal says that he is impounded completely and lacks the ability to exercise any authority whatsoever.  Father Chazal's position makes 100x more sense.  Father Chazal has asserted that these heretical V2 popes (and he states that they are obviously manifest heretics) are already vitandus.

    All these things are there in his famous lengthy video exposition.

    So Father Chazal concedes that these men are manifest heretics, states that they are already vitandi, and therefore that they lack authority altogether.  That's completely different than what S&S claim.

    Where does Fr. Chazal say that the Popes are manifest heretics, and that they lack authority altogether? He has said that Francis is a heretic, but we all agree with that.

    I have a copy of Fr. Chazal's book, "Contra Cekadam," and I can't find where he says what you said he said. He doesn't even say it in his section on sedeprivationism, but he only writes about the problem of sedeprivationism and cuм Ex. Nothing about authority or jurisdiction that I can find.

    What Fr. Chazal does do is to support Cajetan, which of course you may have no interest in reading about, but I'll provide it for those on the thread who might be interested in what Fr. Chazal has to say about Cajetan. We can see that he reiterates what John of St. Thomas has written concerning the views of Cajetan.
    -------


    Fr. Chazal writes, on page 12, in the Chapter called, "Part One, Doctors, Theologians":

    "Therefore the famed Cardinal Cajetan, and great commentator of St. Thomas is set, and at great length, against sedevacantism, in his book, de Comparatione:

    The Pope can be deposed legitimately, because, granted that power to depose a Pope resides in the council apart from the pope, it must be able to assemble its scattered members, in order to depose him; otherwise, while a Pope who must be deposed refused to summon a council, he could not be deposed. p. 66

    "Three things have been established with certainty, namely 1) that the pope, because he has become a heretic, is not deposed ipso facto, by human or divine law; 2) that the pope has no superior on earth; and 3) that if he deviates from the Faith he must be deposed as in Canon Si Papa [D.40c.6]. Great uncertainty remains concerning how and by whom the Pope ought to be deposed will be judged to be deposed, for a judge, as such, is superior to one who is judged.

    "In case of heresy, the connection between the Papacy and that particular person is subject to the decision of the Church and the universal council, so that the heretical pope can be deposed." p.94

    It is hard to believe that Cajetan knew nothing of the injudicability or immunity of the pope (St. Augustine, Zozymus, St. Gelasius, St. Leo, Gratian, Innocent lll, Florence, V Lateran).

    "...but the Pope is liable to the penalty of deposition on account of the crimes of heresy, as the doctors generally say, influenced by the Canon 'Si Papa' (dist.40, ch.6). p.102

    "A heretic Pope should not be deposed before the admonition: for he is not excommunicated on account of heresy, but should be excommunicated by being deposed. Therefore the Apostles command concerning the double admonition, which need not be observed in the case of others, who are inferiors, on account of the addition of excommunication latae sententiae, which the Church imposes on heretics, should be observed to the letter with him"

    Cajetan makes it abundantly clear that it is precisely because he is the pope, that he cannot lose office before the Church warns him, that the highest category of people who must be warned publicly by the Church for heresy, are popes. The expression, "should be excommunicated by being deposed" concurs with Bellarmine, and the fact of the injudicability or immunity of the Papal See."
    ------
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29