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Author Topic: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!  (Read 47182 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
« Reply #360 on: November 12, 2019, 03:24:53 PM »
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    The argument from authority is based on Saint Paul, who orders that the heretic be avoided after two warnings

    St Paul "orders" 2 warnings.  This is in Scripture.  The onus is on you to prove that this isn't required, in a literal sense.
    Quote
    There's no strict requirement for the two warnings, which is why Bellarmine adds, "that is, after showing himself to be manifestly obstinate".  Two warnings is a rule of thumb for demonstrating obstinacy ... but it's not some kind of divine law condition.  Obstinacy can be manifest in other ways.
    Two warnings aren't strictly required?  Maybe, maybe not.  One could argue that it is of "Divine Law" since it's in Scripture.  Is the Bible not infallible?  If St Paul is wrong on this requirement, then so is +Bellarmine, who quoted St Paul.  If St Paul is wrong, then the Bible is in error.
    .
    Even if it is granted that "two" warnings aren't necessary, then we are back at square one - what does +Bellarmine mean when he says "manifest heresy"?  Since you want to argue that warnings/rebukes aren't necessary, then we are all left to guess at the process necessary to determine.  You (and anyone else) can make up your own requirements to determine "manifest" heresy, but it would just be your opinion.  You can no longer quote +Bellarmine with any integrity on this quote. 

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #361 on: November 12, 2019, 03:36:25 PM »
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  • St Paul "orders" 2 warnings.  This is in Scripture.  The onus is on you to prove that this isn't required, in a literal sense.  Two warnings aren't strictly required?

    Obstinacy is required.  One way of establishing obstinacy is the double warning, but it's just one test.  Obstinacy can be determined in other ways.  That is the meaning of Bellarmine's, "that is".

    This text indicates that two warnings manifest obstinacy, but it does not state that obstinacy cannot be established by other means.


    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #362 on: November 12, 2019, 03:44:00 PM »
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  • How does +Bellarmine define "manifest heresy"?  How is manifest heresy determined?  In his 4th opinion, he says:
    .
    “The fourth opinion is that of Cajetan, for whom the manifestly heretical Pope is not “ipso facto” deposed, but can and must be deposed by the Church. To my judgment, this opinion cannot be defended. For, in the first place, it is proven with arguments from authority, and from reason, that the manifest heretic is “ipso facto” deposed. The argument from authority is based on Saint Paul, who orders that the heretic be avoided after two warnings, that is, after showing himself to be manifestly obstinate – which means before any excommunication or judicial sentence”.   -- De Romano Pontifice, Bk. 2
    .
    +Bellarmine answers both these questions together, when he says that one is "manifestly obstinate" after "two warnings".  +Bellarmine says that this argument is "from authority" meaning it's Scriptural.
    .
    Have any of the V2 popes been rebuked with 2 warnings?  No.  Can we say that they are "manifestly obstinate"?  No.  Have they then lost their office "ipso facto"?  No.
    .
    Can this be any clearer?  
    No, it isn’t as clear as you want to make it. Why do you keep distorting Saint Robert Bellarmine’s words?


    You make his inclusion of the Pauline warning as somehow part of his argument when, in fact, his use of Saint Pauls words are there to support his teaching that as soon as a heretic becomes “manifestly obstinate” he ceases to be a member of the Church. In the Case of a “manifestly heretical Pope”, he is “ipso facto deposed”. Case closed!


    In no way is he saying that the two warnings are absolutely necessary to depose a heretic pope, he is simply showing that his argument is based on the authority of Saint Paul by equating “two warnings” with “manifestly obstinate”. That is why he uses the words: “that is”

    Now, can that be any clearer?
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #363 on: November 12, 2019, 03:55:40 PM »
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  • There's no strict requirement for the two warnings, which is why Bellarmine adds, "that is, after showing himself to be manifestly obstinate".  Two warnings is a rule of thumb for demonstrating obstinacy ... but it's not some kind of divine law condition.  Obstinacy can be manifest in other ways.
    Sorry Lad, I just saw this. Didn’t mean to step on your toes.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #364 on: November 12, 2019, 03:59:19 PM »
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    There's plenty wrong with it, starting with the fact that S&S refused to cite all the Canonists who unanimously reject their interpretation (which they appear to have pulled out of thin air).
    https://stevensperay.wordpress.com/2016/02/19/the-sin-of-heresy-why-john-salza-and-robert-siscoe-get-it-wrong-part-ii/

    You're mixing and matching 2 different problems with 2 different solutions.  As we both agree, there is the material and the spiritual aspect of the papacy.  Or, there are human and the divine elements of the papacy.  When Pius XII is talking about heresy severing one from the Body of Christ, he is speaking of the sin of heresy and of the spiritual office.  It's fairly obvious to all of us that one can be guilty of excommunication (spiritually speaking) long before they would be deposed from office (materially speaking).
    .
    In his 4th opinion, when +Bellarmine says that a "manifest" heretic loses office immediately, he is speaking of the material office, which is the whole point of his debates.  When +Bellarmine says that "2 rebukes" are necessary for manifest heresy to be proven, he is arguing that for the MATERIAL OFFICE to be lost, you must have a MATERIAL (i.e. human) proof or process.  The rebukes/warnings are an EXTERNAL manifestation of the heretic's INTERNAL/SPIRITUAL error.
    .
    A heretic, whether formal or material (or occult/private), can still be severed from the Church SPIRITUALLY, which is what Pius XII rightly taught (and what +Chazal says).  But this SPIRITUAL penalty does not affect his MATERIAL OFFICE, because, (from common sense) the internal forum cannot be known or be proven.  So how does the Church depose (i.e. materially remove) someone from office?  There has to be a process, which involves a HUMAN ELEMENT of the GOVERNING aspect of the Church.  This process is St Paul's "2 warnings".
    .
    Thus, as soon as a pope were to speak heresy, they could be presumed to be spiritually impaired (not only for the grave scandal, but also based on the objective heresy they spoke or acted).  But...this would not affect their material office, since obstinacy is necessary for removal from a temporal standpoint.  We all know that +Bellarmine said that we must resist a bad pope and to me, this means we ignore a spiritually impaired pope who speaks objective heresy, even if we don't know if he's obstinate or not (that's for the Church to figure out anyways).  A spiritually impaired pope would be a "doubtful" pope in the sense that he is not to be trusted; his orthodoxy is questionable.  Yet...his material office is still intact, until a material process is followed to remove him.
    .
    Why can we all not agree that material heretic (not yet proven obstinate) pope is to be ignored, resisted, considered as severed (spiritually speaking)?  All of this debating is over what happens to his MATERIAL office, which in the grand scheme of things, is lowly, as compared to his spiritual office.  A non-yet-declared-manifest heretic pope, who still holds the material office, is practically the same as no pope. 


    Offline PaxChristi2

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #365 on: November 12, 2019, 04:01:33 PM »
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  • Are you capable of getting anything right? Of course the ipso facto loss of office without an antecedent judgement is one of the Fiive Opinions.  It's the 2nd Opinion, which Bellarmine refutes and which you defend.  

    Now, to anticipate you're objection, you believe a Pope cannot fall into heresy (1st Opinion), but you also say if he did he would fall from the Pontificate even if his heresy was committed entirely in secret, by an interior act alone (2nd Opinion).



    Quote
    Let's be clear: the reason you think it's the second opinion is because your definition of "occult" heretic includes heretics whose heresy is open and quite public . . . they are "occult" until the Church declares them heretics by a particular and individual judgment, right?

    No, that's no why. The reason I said Fr. Kramer holds the second opinion is because he believes "the virtue of faith" is necessary for a Pope to remain Pope, and needless to say, the virtue of faith is lost even if the sin of heresy is committed by an internal act alone.  Here's what he says:


    Quote
    Fr Kramer: “A heretic would necessarily cease to be pope because even if he were only externally a member of the Church, he would lack faith as the necessary disposition to exercise the charism of Infallibility, since Christ did not confer a magical power of infallibility on Peter (and his successors), but He conferred on him the gift of unfailing faith as the necessary disposition to exercise the charism of Infallibility. (…) faith as a necessary disposition to remain in the Church as a visible member does not suffice to account for why it is that faith, not merely the material and external profession of the objective content of faith, but the virtue of faith as a principium operationis is necessary to be in the soul of person of the pope as its subject in order to receive and preserve within himself the form of the supreme pontificate.”


    So, Fr. Kramer doesn't hold the 5th Opinion as he claims (i.e., "that a manifest heretic is ipso facto deposed").  He holds the 2nd ("that an entirely occult heretic is ipso facto deposed"), which Bellarmine himself refuted.

    And why does Fr. Kramer hold the 2th Opinion?  Believe it or not, he does so based on his interpretation of what Bellarmine wrote in response to the 4th Opinion.  He entirely misunderstood one of the arguments Bellarmine used in an attempt to refute Cajetan, and concluded that Bellarmine himself believes he virtue of faith is necessary - even he explicitly denies it three paragraph earlier and does so again at the end of the chapter, in his commentary on the 5th Opinion.   But it gets even worse...  

    Fr. Kramer then constructed elaborate house of cards argument based on his misinterpretation of Bellarmine, replete impressive metaphysical terminology (that no one understands), sophisticated sounding theology (that no one understand), and lengthy untranslated Latin quotations from St. Thomas himself (that one can understand, with a few exceptions of course) - all of which prevents 99% of the people who read his disastrous argument from having the slightest clue what he's actually saying, and hence from realizing that it is a mess of errors from top to bottom.  I'll explain why as soon as Fr. Kramer objects to what I just wrote.


    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #366 on: November 12, 2019, 04:04:24 PM »
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  • You're mixing and matching 2 different problems with 2 different solutions.  As we both agree, there is the material and the spiritual aspect of the papacy.  Or, there are human and the divine elements of the papacy.  When Pius XII is talking about heresy severing one from the Body of Christ, he is speaking of the sin of heresy and of the spiritual office.  It's fairly obvious to all of us that one can be guilty of excommunication (spiritually speaking) long before they would be deposed from office (materially speaking).
    .
    In his 4th opinion, when +Bellarmine says that a "manifest" heretic loses office immediately, he is speaking of the material office, which is the whole point of his debates.  When +Bellarmine says that "2 rebukes" are necessary for manifest heresy to be proven, he is arguing that for the MATERIAL OFFICE to be lost, you must have a MATERIAL (i.e. human) proof or process.  The rebukes/warnings are an EXTERNAL manifestation of the heretic's INTERNAL/SPIRITUAL error.
    .
    A heretic, whether formal or material (or occult/private), can still be severed from the Church SPIRITUALLY, which is what Pius XII rightly taught (and what +Chazal says).  But this SPIRITUAL penalty does not affect his MATERIAL OFFICE, because, (from common sense) the internal forum cannot be known or be proven.  So how does the Church depose (i.e. materially remove) someone from office?  There has to be a process, which involves a HUMAN ELEMENT of the GOVERNING aspect of the Church.  This process is St Paul's "2 warnings".
    .
    Thus, as soon as a pope were to speak heresy, they could be presumed to be spiritually impaired (not only for the grave scandal, but also based on the objective heresy they spoke or acted).  But...this would not affect their material office, since obstinacy is necessary for removal from a temporal standpoint.  We all know that +Bellarmine said that we must resist a bad pope and to me, this means we ignore a spiritually impaired pope who speaks objective heresy, even if we don't know if he's obstinate or not (that's for the Church to figure out anyways).  A spiritually impaired pope would be a "doubtful" pope in the sense that he is not to be trusted; his orthodoxy is questionable.  Yet...his material office is still intact, until a material process is followed to remove him.
    .
    Why can we all not agree that material heretic (not yet proven obstinate) pope is to be ignored, resisted, considered as severed (spiritually speaking)?  All of this debating is over what happens to his MATERIAL office, which in the grand scheme of things, is lowly, as compared to his spiritual office.  A non-yet-declared-manifest heretic pope, who still holds the material office, is practically the same as no pope.
    “ When +Bellarmine says that "2 rebukes" are necessary for manifest heresy to be proven”

    Pax, do you see your error here?
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #367 on: November 12, 2019, 04:06:02 PM »
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    This text indicates that two warnings manifest obstinacy, but it does not state that obstinacy cannot be established by other means.
    Ok, fair.  Would you agree that ONLY the Church/Cardinals can decide these "other means" to use in determining obstinacy?  Would you agree that +Bellarmine's use of the term "manifest heresy" is therefore open for debate?  Would you agree that ONLY the Church/Cardinals can decide who is or isn't "manifest" or obstinate?


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #368 on: November 12, 2019, 04:08:47 PM »
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    Pax, do you see your error here?
    No.

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #369 on: November 12, 2019, 04:23:29 PM »
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  • No.
    That’s your problem. Saint Robert never says what you ascribe to him.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #370 on: November 12, 2019, 04:32:33 PM »
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  • What are you talking about?  Go read again the text in red.


    Offline Meg

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #371 on: November 12, 2019, 04:36:47 PM »
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  • That's nonsense.  There was a reason for the 5 different opinions and why John of St. Thomas distinguished himself from Bellarmine and Cajetan ... and the two from one another.

    I don't think that John of St. Thomas had distinguished himself from Cajetan, since he was in agreement with Cajetan. Don't mean, rather, that John of St. Thomas distinguished himself from Bellarmine and Suarez? That would make more sense.
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #372 on: November 12, 2019, 04:46:50 PM »
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  • What are you talking about?  Go read again the text in red.
    No, you keep distorting Saint Robert Bellarmine’s words? 

    Again:


    You make his inclusion of the Pauline warning as somehow part of his argument when, in fact, his use of Saint Pauls words are there to support his teaching that as soon as a heretic becomes “manifestly obstinate” he ceases to be a member of the Church. In the Case of a “manifestly heretical Pope”, he is “ipso facto deposed”. Case closed! 


    In no way is he saying that the two warnings are absolutely necessary to depose a heretic pope, he is simply showing that his argument is based on the authority of Saint Paul by equating “two warnings” with “manifestly obstinate”. That is why he uses the words: “that is”


    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #373 on: November 12, 2019, 05:05:22 PM »
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    he is simply showing that his argument is based on the authority of Saint Paul by equating “two warnings” with “manifestly obstinate”. That is why he uses the words: “that is”

    Ok, Ladislaus already pointed that out.  One could argue that "2 warnings" are not necessary to establish "manifest obstinacy".  But this begs the question, again:  How does +Bellarmine determine "manifest obstinacy"?  If "two warnings" are not ABSOLUTELY necessary, it is logical that a SIMILAR act by Church officials must still take place.  In other words, "manifest obstinacy" HAS to be decided/discerned by Church officials, by some means.  Nowhere does +Bellarmine suggest that laymen or priests or even Bishops can privately decide this important question.
    .
    If you disagree, then show me where +Bellarmine defines "manifest obstinacy", or "manifest heresy".   +Bellarmine's use does NOT mean "public" or "open" or "obvious" or "said multiple times" or "gravely wrong".   As it is, we are left his example of a CHURCH PROCESS to determine obstinacy.  "2 warnings" (or something of a similar nature) means that to prove obstinacy requires some action on the part of the Church. 

    Offline PaxChristi2

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #374 on: November 12, 2019, 05:35:31 PM »
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  • Ok, I don't have time to develop this in great detail, so I'll summarize my argument.

    S & S hold UPA to be an "infallible sign" that an elected pontiff receiving UPA satisfied all of the conditions of being pope. Well, as Fr. Kramer says, a necessary condition for a pope is possession of the Catholic faith. Thus, S & S are pointing to a post-election occurrence or fact (UPA) as proof of a prior necessary condition.

    Well, my position also sees a post-election occurrence or fact as a proof of the lack of a necessary condition, or an "infallible sign" that a condition was not satisfied - namely, the possession of the Catholic faith by the one elected: the post-election occurrence or fact being the promulgation or teaching of error in a "pope's" authoritative magisterium that contradicts Catholic dogma, doctrine or Tradition.

    You don't understand UPA.  First, it's not S&S who came up with the idea that UPA is an infallible sign of the legitimacy of a Pope. That's what the canonists and theologians teach.  For example, here's what Dr. Boni, Professor of Canon Law at the University of Bologna and Advisor of the Pontifical Council for Legislative Texts, wrote in 2015 in response to Socci's book questioning Francis' election: 

    Quote
    Fr. Boni: “Given the total legal groundlessness of these suppositions, even to want to give credit to the information on which it claims to take root, the bogeyman - rashly agitated - of the current assidarsi on Peter’s chair of a doubtful Pope also vanishes. However, the canonist have constantly and generally chorus that the peaceful "universalis ecclesiae adhaesio" is a sign and infallible effect of a valid election and a legitimate papacy: and the adhesion to Pope Francis of the people of God cannot be put in any way in doubt.” (Dr. Boni, “Beyond a Resignation. The Decision of Pope Benedict XVI and The Law,” Bologna, 2015.) 

    The universal acceptance of an Pope is an "infallible sign" that he is the true Pope.   If his election is not immediately contested, it is proof that he's the Pope.  That's what UPA means.  Now, if it is infallibly certain that he is Pope, it follows quite logically that it is also infallibly certain that all the conditions required for him to become Pope were met.  If not, he wouldn't have become Pope, and hence would not have been universally accepted as Pope. 
     
    Now, the reason you believe the two points you mentioned are "infallible signs" that he did not become Pope is because you have fallen for two of the common Sedevacantist errors. 1) extending the infallibility of the Pope beyond what the Church teaching (i.e., embracing a false understanding of papal infallibility); and 2) having a false understanding of what it means to "profess the true Faith."  
     
    Papal Infallibility only prevents the Pope from erring when he defines a doctrine, ex cathedra, according to the conditions set down in Chapter IV of Pastor Aeternus, No. 9.  It does not prevent a Pope from erring when he teaches by virtue of his authentic Magisterium.  And making a post-election public "profession of faith" is not a condition to becoming Pope.  He becomes Pope by being elected and accepting. The "profession of faith" is a social or juridical bond that unites the members of the Church, and it is only severed by notorious heresy.  As bad as Francis is, he is not a notorious heretic, and therefore he still professes the faith to the extent necessary to retain his membership in the Church.