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Author Topic: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!  (Read 47104 times)

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Offline PaxChristi2

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Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
« Reply #345 on: November 12, 2019, 12:45:53 PM »
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  • Of course, the distinction here is that Bellarmine is discussing the secret/occult heretic, whom he believes are still members of the Church.  

    Here is my previous reply to Ladislaus.

    Quote
    Ladislaus. Why are you constantly ignoring the word OCCULT in this quotation?  That is the key to understanding this quote properly.

    I wasn’t ignoring it, just waiting for someone to bring it up before I addressed it.

    The first point is that when considering how heresy separates a person from the Church, the distinction to be consider is between notorious and occult heresy.  Material heretics, Formal heretics, Public heretics, etc., (when these terms are properly understood), are all notorious heretics and outside the Church.  So only notorious and occult heresy relate to this question.
     
    Now, occult heresy can be understood as the sin of heresy committed by an interior act alone (entirely occult), or the sin of heresy combined with externally heretical acts (externally occult.)  Both legally and theologically, the internal mortal sin of heresy combined with externally heretics acts – even if the heretical acts are performed publicly for all the world to see– are only considered occult, if they do not rise to the level of heretical notoriety by fact.  In other words, everything less than notorious by fact, is occult. (Whether you know it or not, the Material Hierarchy Thesis that you yourself hold is based on this.)
     
    Cardinal Billot wrote: Heretics are divided into occult and notorious.  Occult heretics are, in the first place, those who by a purely internal act disbelieve dogmas of faith proposed by the Church.  Those also are occult, who do indeed manifest their heresy by external signs, but not by a public profession. You will easily understand that many men of our times fall into the latter category—those, namely, who either doubt or positively disbelieve matters of faith, and do not disguise the state of their mind in the private affairs of life, but who have never expressly renounced the faith of the Church, and, when they are asked categorically about their religion, declare of their own accord that they are Catholics.”
     
    In case you’re wondering, the phrase “by a public profession,” means by a “notorious profession.”  A notorious profession is essentially a public admission of heresy.  Without getting to far into this point, suffice it to say that none of the recent Popes have been guilty of a notorious profession of heresy.
     
    Fr. Glieze provides the canonical explanation for why heresy that is not notorious is reduced to occult: “In a strictly juridical sense, we speak only about occult or notorious heresy, and the notion of public heresy is reduced to that of occult heresy.  In this juridical sense (which is the sense used in canon law), any external act that has not been noted by the authority is occult.”  
     
    Cardinal Billot provides the theological explanation. He begins by noting that “Baptism, of its very nature gathers men into the visible body of the Catholic Church, and its effect will always be joined to it, unless there be something in the recipient of baptism that prevents it—something incompatible with the social bond of ecclesiastical unity.”  He goes on to explain that as long as heresy “stays within the mind, or is confined to manifestations that do not suffice for notoriety, it by no means prevents one from being joined to the visible structure of the Church; and by this fact the baptismal character (by which we are made to be of the body of the Church) necessarily continues to have its effect, or rather retains its natural corollary, since there is not yet anything contrary to impede or expel it.”
    Only heresy that suffices for notoriety will sever the juridical bond (or social bond) of “profession of the true Faith."  If the heresy is not notorious with a notoriety of fact, baptism will continue to produce its effect and the heretic will remain united to the Body of the Church - unless, of course, he openly leaves the Church of how own accord, which will sever the juridical bond of communion.
     
    Here’s how the Catholic Encyclopedia defines notoriety:
     
    Catholic Encyclopedia: “Notoriety is the quality or the state of things that are notorious; whatever is so fully or officially proved, that it may and ought to be held as certain without further investigation, is notorious.  (…)  Notoriety, in addition to this common idea, involves the idea of indisputable proof, so that what is notorious is held as proved and serves as a basis for the conclusions and acts of those in authority, especially judges.  (…) Canonists have variously classified the legal effects of notoriety, especially in matters of procedure; but, ultimately, they may all be reduced to one: the judge, and in general the person in authority, holding what is notorious to be certain and proved, requires no further information, and therefore, both may and ought to refrain from any judicial inquiry, proof, or formalities, which would otherwise be necessary.”
     
    For heresy to be deemed notorious by fact, a judge would have to consider it so clearly proven that no further investigation is required.  And if the heretical acts do not meet that criterion, they are occult and the person is only considered an occult heretic, both legally and theologically.

    This is essentially the argument Bishop Sanborn uses to explain why the recent Popes, the cardinals, and the other members of the hierarchy legally retain their offices.

    Offline PaxChristi2

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #346 on: November 12, 2019, 01:03:05 PM »
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  • I agree completely.  S&S are twisting Bellarmine to agree with the position they hold.  Again, there's nothing wrong with disagreeing with Bellarmine.  I don't agree with 100% of everything he held/taught.  But it's not honest to claim that Bellarmine agrees with you when he clearly doesn't.  S&S try to claim that ALL the theologians agree with them ... by twisting Bellarmine.

    Ladislaus, does this agree with your interpretation of Bellarmine?


    Quote
    Bellarmine: “the Roman Pontiff cannot be deprived of the right to summon a Council, and preside over it – a right he has possessed for 1500 years – unless  he were first legitimately judged and convicted [discretionary judgment], and is not the Supreme Pontiff.  (…) the Pope is not the only judged in a Council, but has many colleagues, that is, all the Bishops who, if they could convict him of heresy [discretionary judgment], could judge and depose him [coercive judgment] against his will.” (Bellarmine, De Concilii).


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #347 on: November 12, 2019, 01:04:06 PM »
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  • I observe all three sides in the debate (sede, bene, and R/R) accusing the other two of “misinterpreting St. Bellarmine.”

    Specifically, on the issue of whether or not he taught/wrote that the Church would have to at least make a first declaratory statement acknowledging the fact of the pope’s heresy before said pope would be deposed by Christ.

    If this teaching is truly the teaching of Bellarmine, then it should be easy enough to settle the matter definitively by posting and citing the passage in both Latin and English.

    It would prove St. Bellarmine did NOT teach that a pope is deposed ipso facto, without any declaration by the Church (ie., that the quote so commonly cited by sedes pertains only to whether a 2nd declaration by the Church announcing the deposition is required, per Cajetan/JST, or whether the pope is deposed ipso facto AFTER THE FIRST DECLARATION, as S/S read Bellarmine).

    So, let’s have the quote and citation in Latin and English, and be done with this never ending dispute!
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #348 on: November 12, 2019, 01:06:36 PM »
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  • Let's be clear: the reason you think it's the second opinion is because your definition of "occult" heretic includes heretics whose heresy is open and quite public . . . they are "occult" until the Church declares them heretics by a particular and individual judgment, right?
    Yes, they arbitrarily redefined the terms.

    Offline Praeter

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #349 on: November 12, 2019, 01:09:52 PM »
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  • Ladislaus, does this agree with your interpretation of Bellarmine?


    Quote
    Quote
    Bellarmine: “the Roman Pontiff cannot be deprived of the right to summon a Council, and preside over it – a right he has possessed for 1500 years – unless  he were first legitimately judged and convicted [discretionary judgment], and is not the Supreme Pontiff.  (…) the Pope is not the only judged in a Council, but has many colleagues, that is, all the Bishops who, if they could convict him of heresy [discretionary judgment], could judge and depose him [coercive judgment] against his will.” (Bellarmine, De Concilii).
    :popcorn:


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #350 on: November 12, 2019, 01:11:50 PM »
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  • Ladislaus, does this agree with your interpretation of Bellarmine?

    As I've pointed out several times, this is one scenario, but the other is where he leaves the Church on his own, which you gratuitously limited to apostasy only ... something which the Canonists reject.

    Offline PaxChristi2

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #351 on: November 12, 2019, 01:31:37 PM »
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  • As I've pointed out several times, this is one scenario, but the other is where he leaves the Church on his own, which you gratuitously limited to apostasy only ... something which the Canonists reject.
    How many times are you going to repeat that after I've already told you that's not what I hold?  

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #352 on: November 12, 2019, 02:34:57 PM »
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  • Quote
    So, let’s have the quote and citation in Latin and English, and be done with this never ending dispute!
    The dispute is not with what +Bellarmine wrote, but with 2 things:  1) what does he mean, how does he define "manifest heresy"?  2) how does one get labeled a manifest heretic?


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #353 on: November 12, 2019, 02:50:30 PM »
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  • How many times are you going to repeat that after I've already told you that's not what I hold?  

    I've seen this in writing from (one of) you over and over again.

    As quoted in the context of your dispute with Speray:

    Quote
    As we will see below in our discussion on canon 188, §4, the old 1917 Code of Canon Law taught that in the extreme case in which a prelate publicly defects from the Faith by joining a non-Catholic sect, he is deposed without the need of a declaratory sentence. (ibid. p. 281)

    Tacit resignation for public defection from the faith occurs when a prelate joins a non-Cathlic sect, not when he simply makes a heretical statement (judged so by private judgment). Canon 2314, §3 confirms this… (Ibid. p. 286)

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #354 on: November 12, 2019, 02:52:41 PM »
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  • Lad, he has clearly made distinctions which you are ignoring.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #355 on: November 12, 2019, 02:54:39 PM »
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  • Lad, he has clearly made distinctions which you are ignoring.

    Hardly.  He's fabricating distinctions that no other interpreter of Bellarmine agrees with.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #356 on: November 12, 2019, 03:05:08 PM »
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  • How does +Bellarmine define "manifest heresy"?  How is manifest heresy determined?  In his 4th opinion, he says:
    .
    “The fourth opinion is that of Cajetan, for whom the manifestly heretical Pope is not “ipso facto” deposed, but can and must be deposed by the Church. To my judgment, this opinion cannot be defended. For, in the first place, it is proven with arguments from authority, and from reason, that the manifest heretic is “ipso facto” deposed. The argument from authority is based on Saint Paul, who orders that the heretic be avoided after two warnings, that is, after showing himself to be manifestly obstinate – which means before any excommunication or judicial sentence”.   -- De Romano Pontifice, Bk. 2
    .
    +Bellarmine answers both these questions together, when he says that one is "manifestly obstinate" after "two warnings".  +Bellarmine says that this argument is "from authority" meaning it's Scriptural.
    .
    Have any of the V2 popes been rebuked with 2 warnings?  No.  Can we say that they are "manifestly obstinate"?  No.  Have they then lost their office "ipso facto"?  No.
    .
    Can this be any clearer? 

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #357 on: November 12, 2019, 03:14:18 PM »
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  • How does +Bellarmine define "manifest heresy"?  How is manifest heresy determined?  In his 4th opinion, he says:
    .
    “The fourth opinion is that of Cajetan, for whom the manifestly heretical Pope is not “ipso facto” deposed, but can and must be deposed by the Church. To my judgment, this opinion cannot be defended. For, in the first place, it is proven with arguments from authority, and from reason, that the manifest heretic is “ipso facto” deposed. The argument from authority is based on Saint Paul, who orders that the heretic be avoided after two warnings, that is, after showing himself to be manifestly obstinate – which means before any excommunication or judicial sentence”.   -- De Romano Pontifice, Bk. 2
    .
    +Bellarmine answers both these questions together, when he says that one is "manifestly obstinate" after "two warnings".  +Bellarmine says that this argument is "from authority" meaning it's Scriptural.
    .
    Have any of the V2 popes been rebuked with 2 warnings?  No.  Can we say that they are "manifestly obstinate"?  No.  Have they then lost their office "ipso facto"?  No.
    .
    Can this be any clearer?  

    There's no strict requirement for the two warnings, which is why Bellarmine adds, "that is, after showing himself to be manifestly obstinate".  Two warnings is a rule of thumb for demonstrating obstinacy ... but it's not some kind of divine law condition.  Obstinacy can be manifest in other ways.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #358 on: November 12, 2019, 03:15:15 PM »
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  • Quote
    Tacit resignation for public defection from the faith occurs when a prelate joins a non-Cathlic sect, not when he simply makes a heretical statement (judged so by private judgment). Canon 2314, §3 confirms this… (Ibid. p. 286)
    I don't see any problem with this, Ladislaus.  In fact, you've made the same argument when you said that one does not lose membership in the Church for material-only heresy.  You argued in the past that most novus ordo-ites are material heretics and so, based on the above, you said they were not outside of the Church, because it is not proven they are obstinate in their errors.  The above view is a general statement; it could be wrong if more details are added, but as it is written, it is generally correct.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #359 on: November 12, 2019, 03:17:12 PM »
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  • I don't see any problem with this, Ladislaus.

    There's plenty wrong with it, starting with the fact that S&S refused to cite all the Canonists who unanimously reject their interpretation (which they appear to have pulled out of thin air).
    https://stevensperay.wordpress.com/2016/02/19/the-sin-of-heresy-why-john-salza-and-robert-siscoe-get-it-wrong-part-ii/