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Author Topic: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!  (Read 47120 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
« Reply #330 on: November 12, 2019, 12:00:00 PM »
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    Next, the Holy Fathers teach in unison, that not only are heretics outside the Church, but they even lack all Ecclesiastical jurisdiction and dignity ipso facto.
    A simple material heretic is not outside the Church.  They still have jurisdiction and have not lost their office.  Thus, St Bellarmine was using the term 'heretic' in the formal/obstinate meaning.  Thus, what he said above is true.

    Offline PaxChristi2

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #331 on: November 12, 2019, 12:00:34 PM »
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  • Fair enough.

    What do you make of Bellarmine's argument against the 4th opinion?

    "before excommunication and sentence of a judge."

    Before the sentence of a judge, does not mean before the discretionary judgment.  Bellarmine explains that a discretionary judgment is that of an arbitrator, while a coercive judgment is that of a judge.   And he teaches in no uncertain terms that an heretical Pope, who does not publicly separate himself from the Church, will retain the pontificate until he is convicted of heresy.   The conviction is the discretionary judgment.   

    Bellarmine: “an occult heretic, if he be a bishop or even the supreme Pontiff, does not lose his jurisdiction, or dignity, or the title of head in the Church, until either he publicly separates himself from the Church or, being convicted of heresy, is separated against his will.”

    In his commentary on the 5th Opinion, when he says a Pope can be "judged and punished" after he ceases to be Pope, that is referring to a coercive judgment.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #332 on: November 12, 2019, 12:05:15 PM »
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    The fact that none of us here understand your slippery arguments is prima facie evidence that you are dishonest liar....Does Cardinal Burke agree with you? No.

    It's not a difficult argument, unless you fail to distinguish between material/formal heresy (i.e. error vs obstinate error).  When the 4 Cardinals wrote the dubia letter, they explained that this rebuke process is required to determine obstinacy.  Once obstinacy is determined, then the Church can remove a former-pope, because they become a former-pope the moment that they are obstinate in error.  So, yes, +Burke does agree with this PC2's argument and also +Bellarmine.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #333 on: November 12, 2019, 12:08:16 PM »
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  • Your argument, if it makes any sense at all, is that the claimant is the true pope with supreme authority until the moment a discretionary judgment is made against him.  If that's not the case, then you have no argument with sedes and your entire book is a fraud.  The fact that none of us here understand your slippery arguments is prima facie evidence that you are dishonest liar.  No one understands it because it sucks.  You are a meathead who wasted 15 years of your life studying a topic without ever conforming yourself to the doctrines of the theologians you were reading.  Instead you picked through it and cobbled together a twisted theory that cannot be found in any theology book anywhere.  Did the Novus Ordo people discover your theory when they decided that Frank had gone too far?  No, they came to the same exact conclusion as the sedes.  Does Cardinal Burke agree with you? No.  Does Ed Peters agree with you? No.  You and your buddy are losers who are trying to prop up the failed R&R position.

    This^^^^ is the emotional outburst of someone desperate to salvage his position, because he is aware he is being destroyed in the debate.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Don Paolo

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #334 on: November 12, 2019, 12:16:10 PM »
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  •      Although the opinion that a public heretic would lose office entirely by himself, ipso jure divino (i.e. ipso facto), was already formulated by canonists in the twelfth century, Salza & Sisco dismiss it as "sedevacantist theology" -- as if it were a modern sedevacantist invention. How can it be possible that such theologians as Cajetan, John of St. Thomas, and Bordoni were aware of that opinion and argued against it; but if the Salza/Siscoe interpretation of Bellarmine's fifth opinion were correct, then Bellarmine would have been ignorant of the opinion asserting an ipso jure divino loss of office for a pope who becomes a public heretic. It is inconceivable that Bellarmine could have been ignorant of that opinion, and that he would not have listed it as one of the opinions on the question of deposing a heretic pope. Hinscius (1869) mentions that a whole series of authors favour that opinion of an automatic forfiture of office by a manifest heretic pope. Gregory XVI interprets the Bellarminian opinion as formulated by Ballerini in the same manner, i.e., that the manifest heretic pope would lose office "by himself", having "abdicated" the pontificate by his pertinacity; and that the judgment of the Church would be made not against the pope antecedently, but against him "who before was adorned with papal dignity." According to Salza & Siscoe, the fifth opinion calls for an antecedent judgment by the Church; which means Gregory XVI and the entire series of authors mentioned by Hinscius understood it wrongly -- and it would mean that Bellarmine himself was ignorant of that opinion formulated by canonists since the twelfth century. Historically there have been five opinions. The first opinion is that the pope cannot be a heretic. The second is that all heretics, even secret heretics, lose office ipso jure divino (ipso facto). The third is that a manifest heretic pope is not deposed ipso facto, nor can he be deposed by the Church. The fourth is that a manifest heretic is not deposed ipso facto, but must be judged and deposed by the Church. The fifth historic opinion is that the public heretic falls from office entirely by himself, ipso facto, before any deposition or trial. Deposition is a threefold act, (as Bordoni explains), comprised of 1) judgment, 2) deposition, 3) penal sanction. Historically, the fifth opinion asserted an ipso jure divino loss of office without any antecedent judgment or declaration. This opinion was opposed by Cajetan, John of St. Thomas, Suárez, Bordoni, and many others. According to the Salza & Siscoe theory, this historic opinion of an ipso jure divino loss of office for public heresy without an antecedent judgment is not one of the historic five opinions, but a sedevacantist misintetpretation of Bellarmine! The Salza/Siscoe interpretation of the fifth opinion is straight out of the lunatic asylum. Against the teaching of the expert canonists who list Suárez as holding opinion no. 4, Salza & Siscoe claim that Bellarmine and Suárez were of the same opinion, i.e., no. 5! Fr. Jean-Michel Gleize accurately described the Surezian opinion as a logically incoherent synthesis of opinions no. 4 and 5. Suárez's opinion is not the historic no. 5 as Salza & Siscoe ignorantly claim.


    Offline PaxChristi2

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #335 on: November 12, 2019, 12:19:58 PM »
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  • Your argument, if it makes any sense at all, is that the claimant is the true pope with supreme authority until the moment a discretionary judgment is made against him.

    That exactly right, but what you're not getting is that the discretionary judgment does not CAUSE the Pope to fall from the pontificate. It is a condition that must be met before he is ipso facto deposed by Christ, just like Suarez and John of St. Thomas said in the previous quotations I provided.


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    The fact that none of us here understand your slippery arguments is prima facie evidence that you are dishonest liar.  No one understands it because it sucks. ...  Does Ed Peters agree with you? No.  

    The former rector of the Gregorian certainly does.  And not only did he teach teach canon law for most of his adult life, but, as related by Professor de Mattei, he also studied the past 1000 years of canonical tradition on the subject.    Here’s what he wrote in 2013 after doing so:

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    Father Ghirlanda, S.J., (2013):  “The vacancy of the Roman See occurs in case of the cessation of the office on the part of the Roman Pontiff, which happens for four reasons: 1) Death, 2) Sure and perpetual insanity or complete mental infirmity; 3) Notorious apostasy, heresy, schism; 4) Resignation.  In the first case, the Apostolic See is vacant from the moment of death of the Roman Pontiff; in the second and in the third from the moment of the declaration on the part of the cardinals; in the fourth from the moment of the renunciation." (…) There is the case, admitted by doctrine, of notorious apostasy, heresy and schism, into which the Roman Pontiff could fall, but as a ‘private doctor,’ that does not demand the assent of the faithful (…) However, in such cases, because ‘the first see is judged by no one’ (Canon 1404) no one could depose the Roman Pontiff, but only a declaration of the fact would be had, which would have to be done by the Cardinals, at least of those present in Rome.” (La Civiltà Cattolica, March 2,  2013)


    He says the Cardinals judge and declare the fact, and the moment they do so the Apostolic See becomes vacant.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #336 on: November 12, 2019, 12:20:31 PM »
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  • At the end of the day, people can hold any number of positions on this subject provided that they do not violate Catholic teaching.

    If in fact, the Magisterium and Universal Discipline of the Church had not become corrupt, then this would be an entirely academic question.  If the Magisterium were intact and the Tridentine Mass were being offered, if Bergoglio was running around saying heretical things, it has no impact on me, and I would just write it off as "not my problem".

    But we have a problem.  If Vatican II and the New Mass are from the legitimate Pope, then I'm accepting them ... as should all Catholics ... without any fear of our displeasing God by doing so.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #337 on: November 12, 2019, 12:30:25 PM »
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  •     Although the opinion that a public heretic would lose office entirely by himself, ipso jure divino (i.e. ipso facto), was already formulated by canonists in the twelfth century, Salza & Sisco dismiss it as "sedevacantist theology" -- as if it were a modern sedevacantist invention. How can it be possible that such theologians as Cajetan, John of St. Thomas, and Bordoni were aware of that opinion and argued against it; but if the Salza/Siscoe interpretation of Bellarmine's fifth opinion were correct, then Bellarmine would have been ignorant of the opinion asserting an ipso jure divino loss of office for a pope who becomes a public heretic. It is inconceivable that Bellarmine could have been ignorant of that opinion, and that he would not have listed it as one of the opinions on the question of deposing a heretic pope. Hinscius (1869) mentions that a whole series of authors favour that opinion of an automatic forfiture of office by a manifest heretic pope. Gregory XVI interprets the Bellarminian opinion as formulated by Ballerini in the same manner, i.e., that the manifest heretic pope would lose office "by himself", having "abdicated" the pontificate by his pertinacity; and that the judgment of the Church would be made not against the pope antecedently, but against him "who before was adorned with papal dignity." According to Salza & Siscoe, the fifth opinion calls for an antecedent judgment by the Church; which means Gregory XVI and the entire series of authors mentioned by Hinscius understood it wrongly -- and it would mean that Bellarmine himself was ignorant of that opinion formulated by canonists since the twelfth century. Historically there have been five opinions. The first opinion is that the pope cannot be a heretic. The second is that all heretics, even secret heretics, lose office ipso jure divino (ipso facto). The third is that a manifest heretic pope is not deposed ipso facto, nor can he be deposed by the Church. The fourth is that a manifest heretic is not deposed ipso facto, but must be judged and deposed by the Church. The fifth historic opinion is that the public heretic falls from office entirely by himself, ipso facto, before any deposition or trial. Deposition is a threefold act, (as Bordoni explains), comprised of 1) judgment, 2) deposition, 3) penal sanction. Historically, the fifth opinion asserted an ipso jure divino loss of office without any antecedent judgment or declaration. This opinion was opposed by Cajetan, John of St. Thomas, Suárez, Bordoni, and many others. According to the Salza & Siscoe theory, this historic opinion of an ipso jure divino loss of office for public heresy without an antecedent judgment is not one of the historic five opinions, but a sedevacantist misintetpretation of Bellarmine! The Salza/Siscoe interpretation of the fifth opinion is straight out of the lunatic asylum. Against the teaching of the expert canonists who list Suárez as holding opinion no. 4, Salza & Siscoe claim that Bellarmine and Suárez were of the same opinion, i.e., no. 5! Fr. Jean-Michel Gleize accurately described the Surezian opinion as a logically incoherent synthesis of opinions no. 4 and 5. Suárez's opinion is not the historic no. 5 as Salza & Siscoe ignorantly claim.

    I agree completely.  S&S are twisting Bellarmine to agree with the position they hold.  Again, there's nothing wrong with disagreeing with Bellarmine.  I don't agree with 100% of everything he held/taught.  But it's not honest to claim that Bellarmine agrees with you when he clearly doesn't.  S&S try to claim that ALL the theologians agree with them ... by twisting Bellarmine.


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #338 on: November 12, 2019, 12:32:01 PM »
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  • Of course, the distinction here is that Bellarmine is discussing the secret/occult heretic, whom he believes are still members of the Church.  

    Bellarmine backs up his teaching that heretics lose jurisdiction, ipso facto, or by the fact that they are heretics, before any declaration...  
    I suspect that S&S knew that.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #339 on: November 12, 2019, 12:33:13 PM »
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  • This^^^^ is the emotional outburst of someone desperate to salvage his position, because he is aware he is being destroyed in the debate.
    Or....every word he wrote was.....completely accurate.

    Offline Mr G

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #340 on: November 12, 2019, 12:35:33 PM »
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  • http://sspx.org/en/news-events/news/question-papal-heresy-part-3-20413

    Here is the article that Fr. Kramer was referencing: 

    Errors condemned throughout history have been presented as truth from Rome during the past 50 years. How are we to think?
     
    The author of this series, Fr. Jean-Michel Gleize, has been a professor in the SSPX's Seminary of St. Pius X in Econe, Switzerland for 20 years, where he is currently teaching ecclesiology. He is the author of numerous articles in Courrier de Rome and is a consultant to the SSPX commission responsible for doctrinal discussions with the Holy See.

     

    Part 3: Can a Pope Fall into Heresy?

    At first glance it would seem that this is an improbable thesis. In fact, the negative answer to this question is the common opinion of theologians of the modern era. They say, in effect, that the pope could not become a formal, obstinate heretic, in other words a deliberate, culpable heretic, although he could become a material heretic, through non-culpable ignorance or because of a simple error and not by reason of ill will. The main advocates of this thesis are the Dutch theologian Albert Pighi (1490-1542) (author of the treatise Hierarchiae ecclesiasticae assertio, which examines this question), St. Robert Bellarmine (1542-1621) (De Romano Pontifice, Book 4, chapters 6-14), and Francisco Suarez (1548-1617) (De fide, disputatio 10, sectio 6, §11, Opera omnia, 2:319). Just before Vatican Council I, this opinion was held also by the French canonist Marie-Dominique Bouix (1808-1870).

    During that Council, Bishop Zinelli, speaking in the name of the Deputation of the Faith, praises this opinion of Bellarmine and Suarez: according to him it is probable that the pope will never be a formal heretic:
      

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    Since these things have been entrusted to supernatural Providence, we think it sufficiently probable that they will never come about” (Mansi, vol. 52, col. 1109).
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    In the wake of the Council, Cardinal Billot (1846-1931) reiterated the same opinion in L’Église, II–Sa constitution intime, question 14, thesis 29, part 2, nos. 940-949. Fr. Dublanchy too adopted it after him in “Infaillibilité du pape,” Dictionnaire de théologie catholique, 8/2:1716-1717. Finally, during the reign of Pius XII, the classic manual by Father Salaverri, De Ecclesia Christi, thesis 14, §657, mentions this question about the personal heresy of a pope as a matter for theological debate and presents as probable the opinion of Bellarmine and Suarez that was praised by Bishop Zinelli.

    The Twofold Argument
      


    The argument of this explanation is twofold, and it remains invariable in the writings of all the authors who adopt this position. First there is a theoretical argument that is presented as a matter of convenience: the infallibility of the office promised in Luke 22:32 would make personal indefectibility in the faith morally necessary. Indeed, St. Robert Bellarmine remarks in De Romano Pontifice, Book V, chapter 6 that the order established by God absolutely requires that the private person of the Supreme Pontiff not be able to fall into heresy, not even by losing his faith in a purely internal way.
      
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    For the pope must not and cannot preach heresy; not only that, but he must also teach the truth always, and there is no doubt that he will always do so, since the Lord commanded him to strengthen his brethren. But how can a heretical pope strengthen his brethren in the faith, how will he always preach the true faith? No doubt, God is still capable of extracting the profession of the true faith from the heart of a heretic, just as he once made Balaam’s ass speak. But there would be violence in that, and not an action in keeping with divine providence, which arranges all things smoothly.”
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    There is also a second factual argument, following from the first, which logically leads all the advocates of the theory to prove that never in all the history of the Church has any pope been formally heretical (see ibid., chapters 7-14).

    The Premodern Opinion
      


    Nevertheless, the theologians of the modern era are latecomers. And one might object that even before them, from the 12th-16th centuries, theologians commonly thought that the pope can fall into heresy. We encounter this idea in the 12th century in Gratian’s Decretum, specifically Book 1, distinction 40, chapter 6 entitled Si papa. Gratian says that the pope cannot be judged by anyone else, except in the case in which he strayed from the faith. This statement is attributed to St. Boniface, Archbishop of Milan, and it is cited under his name, before Gratian, by Cardinal Deusdedit and Yves de Chartres. It is the text that will serve as a basis for all the reflections of the medieval canonists and will henceforth support a common opinion: “The canonists of the 12th and 13th centuries,” Fr. Dublanchy says,
      
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    ...know the passage from Gratian and comment on it. All admit without difficulty that the pope can fall into heresy, as into any other serious sin; their only concern it to investigate how and in what conditions he can in this case be judged by the Church” (Dictionnaire de théologie catholique, col. 1715). 
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    Cajetan again supports this thesis. Albert Pighi in the 16th century would be the first to break with a theological and canonical tradition that had been unanimous until then. But even in the modern era, the new opinion introduced by Pighi would not be absolutely unanimous. In fact, Pighi was rather quickly refuted by Melchior Cano (1509-1560) (De locis theologicis, Book 6, chapter 8, §§21-23) and Domenico Bañez (1528-1604) (Commentary on II-II, q. 1, art. 10, folios 183-212 of the 1587 Venice edition). The Dominican Charles-René Billuart (1685-1757) shares the same opinion with these two theologians in his De fide, dissertatio 5, art. 3, §3, objectio 2; De regulis fidei, dissertatio 4, art. 8, §2, objectiones 2 et 6 and De incarnatione, dissertatio 9, art. 2, §2, objectio 2.

    Finally, in the aftermath of the Vatican Council, Father Palmieri defends this thesis in Tractatus de romano pontifice, thesis 32, scholion, pp. 630-633. 
      Archbishop Lefebvre, during the sermon of the 1988 consecrations, discussed this grave topic
    Lessons from History and Today
      

    Consider also that the facts of history are undeniable. There have been in the Church one or two popes who favored heresy, and there are today, since Vatican II, popes who have caused serious problems for the conscience of Catholics, who are rightly perplexed. For instance, Pope Honorius I (625-640) was anathematized by his successors, Ss. Agatho (678-681) and Leo II (682-684) during the Third Council of Constantinople in 681 for having favored the Monothelite heresy. (For more detailed information, see the article “Une crise sans précédents?” that appeared in the journal of the Institute Universitaire saint Pie X, Vu de haut 14 (Automne 2008), pp. 78-95.)
    On the other hand, it is clear that since Vatican II, Popes Paul VI, John Paul II. and Benedict XVI have taught—and Pope Francis still teaches—theological opinions that would be difficult to reconcile with the substance of Catholic dogma. But in both cases, the import is essentially the same. And these facts have been noted by persons whose judgment has a certain moral authority, although it lacks juridical authority.
    Consider the words of Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, delivered in his sermon at the June 30, 1988 episcopal consecrations at Ecône.
      [/size]

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    Indeed, since the Council, what we [the popes before 1962] condemned in the past the present Roman authorities have embraced and are professing. How is it possible? We have condemned them: Liberalism, Communism., Socialism, Modernism, Sillonism. All the errors which we have condemned are now professed, adopted and supported by the authorities of the Church. Is it possible?”
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    Recent events, no doubt, are more serious than situations in the past. Here again is the Archbishop, this time from his March 30, 1986 Easter sermon:
      [/size]

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    We find ourselves facing a serious, extremely serious dilemma that I think has never existed in the Church: the fact that the man seated on the chair of Peter participates in the worship of false gods. I do not think that this has ever happened in the history of the Church”  
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    And, finally, attention must also be paid to the comments Bp. de Castro-Mayer made to Archbishop Lefebvre in a letter dated December 8, 1969:
      [/size]

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    This is a very serious matter. We are on the way to a new Church. Rome is the one driving souls into heresy. It seems to me that we cannot accept all the docuмents of Vatican II. There are some that cannot be interpreted according to Trent and Vatican I. What do you think?”
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    All this leads us to think, no more no less, that the first opinion that regards as improbable the fall of a pope into heresy is itself improbable. In other words, the arguments from theological authority along the lines of a negative answer to the question posed are insufficient to win adherence. It must still be shown, therefore, how right reason, enlightened by faith, could justify an affirmative answer. 



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    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #341 on: November 12, 2019, 12:36:05 PM »
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  • At the end of the day, people can hold any number of positions on this subject provided that they do not violate Catholic teaching.

    If in fact, the Magisterium and Universal Discipline of the Church had not become corrupt, then this would be an entirely academic question.  If the Magisterium were intact and the Tridentine Mass were being offered, if Bergoglio was running around saying heretical things, it has no impact on me, and I would just write it off as "not my problem".

    But we have a problem.  If Vatican II and the New Mass are from the legitimate Pope, then I'm accepting them ... as should all Catholics ... without any fear of our displeasing God by doing so.
    S&S and R&R will never admit that.  R&R is a failed position.  They are recognizing as the true pope that a demon-woshipping sodomite heretic is the true pope of the Holy Catholic Church and then they refuse to subject themselves to his doctrine just like they refuse to subject themselves to the pre-V2 theologians.  Instead they cook up novel theories.  They are just like their "holy" father, Frank.

    Offline PaxChristi2

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #342 on: November 12, 2019, 12:36:15 PM »
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  • According to the Salza & Siscoe theory, this historic opinion of an ipso jure divino loss of office for public heresy without an antecedent judgment is not one of the historic five opinions...

    Are you capable of getting anything right?

    Of course the ipso facto loss of office without an antecedent judgement is one of the Fiive Opinions.  It's the 2nd Opinion, which Bellarmine refutes and which you defend.  

    Now, to anticipate you're objection, you believe a Pope cannot fall into heresy (1st Opinion), but you also say if he did he would fall from the Pontificate even if his heresy was committed entirely in secret, by an interior act alone (2nd Opinion).

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #343 on: November 12, 2019, 12:42:35 PM »
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  • Are you capable of getting anything right?

    Of course the ipso facto loss of office without an antecedent judgement is one of the Fiive Opinions.  It's the 2nd Opinion, which Bellarmine refutes and which you defend.  

    Now, to anticipate you're objection, you believe a Pope cannot fall into heresy (1st Opinion), but you also say if he did he would fall from the Pontificate even if his heresy was committed entirely in secret, by an interior act alone (2nd Opinion).
    Let's be clear: the reason you think it's the second opinion is because your definition of "occult" heretic includes heretics whose heresy is open and quite public . . . they are "occult" until the Church declares them heretics by a particular and individual judgment, right? 
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Mr G

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #344 on: November 12, 2019, 12:44:25 PM »
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  • http://sspx.org/en/news-events/news/question-papal-heresy-part-4-20547


    More from Fr. Gleize, who holds the same position as Fr. Kramer, that a True Pope cannot fall into formal heresy. 
     
    After carefully defining terms, we review the essential question; can the Vicar of Christ be heretical, in the exact meaning of the word?

    The author of this series, Fr. Jean-Michel Gleize, has been a professor in the SSPX's Seminary of St. Pius X in Econe, Switzerland for 20 years, where he is currently teaching ecclesiology. He is the author of numerous articles in Courrier de Rome and is a consultant to the SSPX commission responsible for doctrinal discussions with the Holy See.
    Part 4: About the Pope and Heresy
    Defining Heresy

     Heresy must be understood first as a morally bad human act, in other words, a sin. But like the act of faith to which it is opposed, this act is complex, for it depends simultaneously on the intellect and the will. Inasmuch as it follows from the intellect, this act is an error, which can occur in two modes: pure and simple negation; mere doubt. Inasmuch as it follows from the will, this act is the refusal to give the support of the intellect to the truth that is denied or doubted.

    Pertinacity or Error

     This refusal itself can occur in two modes, depending on whether or not it is culpable. Heresy takes place specifically when there is a voluntary refusal, with full advertence precisely to the simple fact that the truths denied or doubted are proposed by the Church’s authority, and not to the additional fact that the Church’s authority represents that of God and therefore obliges morally. With regard to this second fact, advertence defines heresy not as such but inasmuch as it is culpable. This culpability is tantamount to pertinacity, in other words, to the rejection of the matter of faith inasmuch as, in the view of the person who rejects it, it appears clearly obligatory because it is proposed by the authority of God’s legitimate representative, in this case the Magisterium of the Church.


    Non-culpable rejection occurs, on the other hand, in someone who, without fault on his part, does not know that this ecclesiastical Magisterium obliged him inasmuch as it represents the divine authority. It follows therefore that pertinacity concerns directly the internal act of heresy, which is the act of adherence to error.
    Formal or Material

     At the level of the external act, which is the act of professing truth or error, the simple refusal (culpable or not) to profess the truth proposed by the Magisterium is already sufficient to define heresy specifically. Consequently, when we describe heresy by saying that it is formal or material, depending on whether or not it involved pertinacity, this distinction concerns only the internal act of heresy.

    Act of Heresy or Heretical Proposition?

     On the level of the external act, the rejection of the authority of the ecclesiastical Magisterium already corresponds to heresy properly so-called, whatever the case may be with regard to possible pertinacity on the level of the internal act. This pertinacity becomes manifest in the external forum when the competent authority intervenes to impose a retraction on the interested party and the latter with full knowledge of the facts refuses to make a retraction. The term heresy designates, secondly, and by the analogy of attribution, the doctrinal value of a proposition that is opposed to and contradicts Catholic dogma. From this perspective, in order to make a determination of heresy, it is necessary and sufficient to apply the simple rules of formal logic. The determination is imposed automatically, like it or not, but it applies to a speculative utterance, a simple literal proposition, apart from the person who utters it.

    Occult, Public or Notorious Heresy

     On the other hand, understood in the first sense as a morally bad human act, external heresy as such is distinct from internal heresy, which is not manifest at all. It is expressed by signs (words, actions, omissions), even if no one notices them. It is sometimes occult, sometimes public and sometimes notorious. If the expression is known by a small number of discreet witnesses, the heresy is said to be occult. If it is known by most people, it is public. Notoriety is something else again, because it is of a juridical order and is equivalent of a higher degree of public knowledge. Legal notoriety results from a juridical determination by the authority (for example by a judicial sentence passed in a matter that has been adjudicated or by the admission of a delinquent before the tribunal).

    Notoriety in fact occurs when the act was performed in such circuмstances that no artifice can conceal it and no juridical subtlety can excuse it, for example a flagrant delict (offense against the law) (cf. Raoul Naz, “Délit,” 

    Dictionnaire de droit canonique (Letouzey 1949), 4:1087-1088). Notorious heresy therefore is not a heresy that everyone knows about. It is the sort of heresy that results from acts that the hierarchical authority of the Church denounces juridically as incompatible with the common good of Catholic society. In a strictly juridical sense, we speak only about occult or notorious heresy, and the notion of public heresy is reduced to that of occult heresy. In this juridical sense (which is sense used in canon law), any external act that has not been noted by the authority is occult.
    Infallibility and Heresy
      

    Having made these distinctions and clarifications, let us try to frame the problem before us: can the Pope fall into heresy? The Pope is a man called by God to exercise the supreme and universal power of jurisdiction (and therefore of the Magisterium or teaching office) over the whole Church. As a man, he remains, like all his fellow human beings, subject to error. In order for him not to be subject to error, it is necessary for God to have given him an explicit assurance, while specifying the limits within which he will enjoy this infallibility; and this assurance was given by God in restricted circuмstances, outside of which there is no reason to say that the Pope is infallible. More precisely, any and all exercise of his function does not fall within these limits, but only one type of particular actions, the performance of which may appear clearly by means of the criteria of locutio ex cathedra (speaking from the teacher’s seat, authoritatively).

    All theologians acknowledge that outside these limits the Pope is not infallible even though some of them have gone so far as to maintain that he would ordinarily be inerrant. (For further reading, see Jean-Baptiste Franzelin, De divina traditione (4th ed. 1896), thesis 12, appendix 1, principle 7 and its corollaries, pp. 118-141; Dublanchy, “Infaillibilité du pape, ”Dictionnaire de Théologie Catholique, col. 1711-1712; Straub, De Ecclesia, nos. 968 ff.; and Lucien Choupin, S.J., Valeur des décisions doctrinales et disciplinaires du Saint-Siège (Paris: Beauchesne, 1913), pp. 87-92). Consider also the words of the Dominican theologian Fr. Thomas Pègues, cited by Choupin, op. cit., p. 55.
      

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    It could be, strictly speaking, that this teaching would be subject to error. We have a thousand reasons to believe that it is not. It probably never has been and it is morally certain that it never will be. But absolutely it could be, in the sense that God does not guarantee it as He guarantees teaching that is formulated by way of definition.”
    To What Point a Pope Can Err?
      

    It is therefore not a contradiction that the man who is Pope should be mistaken, even in the exercise of his office, and even to the point of heresy. But this conclusion is drawn on the universal level, which is the level of mere possibility, that is, the compatibility of abstract notions; it does not apply to a real risk in matters of fact, or to a greater or lesser probability, much less to a frequency. Consequently, even though it may be indubitable, this conclusion would not be tantamount (at least not yet) to the statement that Pope Francis is heretical.

    The Pope can err to the point of at least material heresy: no theologian disputes that. The question being debated is not whether he could fall as far as formal heresy, with pertinacity. In fact, the passage from material heresy to formal heresy depends as such on the internal forum and remains unverifiable. The only question that matters is what may happen in the external forum. From this perspective, it is plain that the Pope can fall into occult heresy: not only private heresy but even public heresy.

    Can a Pope Fall in Notorious Heresy?
      

    On the other hand, if we are talking about notorious heresy, it is obvious that he cannot during his lifetime: notorious heresy is in fact heresy that is declared by the competent superior, and since the Pope has no superior here on earth, no one is competent to declare his heresy canonically. From a strictly canonical perspective, the Pope therefore during his lifetime could fall only into occult heresy. Once he has died, his heresy can obviously be declared by his successor and become notorious. But that does not authorize us to say that the Pope could fall into notorious heresy, since by definition this fall could take place only during his lifetime.

    This authorizes us only to say that a Pope could be anathematized posthumously, provided that we are not misled by the expression, since a deceased pope is no longer Pope. In reality, this anathema pertains strictly speaking not to his person but to his statements: the heresy is notorious, but it is so if it is understood not in the first sense, as a person’s moral act, but in the second sense, as the doctrinal description of a proposition. 

    Fr. Roger-Thomas Calmel, OP, who discussed the question of modern papal heresy

    Cases Before and After Vatican II

     As for what has happened in fact, the response is twofold, depending on whether it concerns past facts from the period before Vatican II or present facts, from the period inaugurated by Vatican II. In the case of the former, only Pope Honorius was anathematized posthumously, strictly speaking not as heretical but as having favored heresy; on the other hand, his successors, St. Agatho and St. Leo II, never proclaimed the posthumous dethronement of Honorius, who never ceased to be recognized thereafter as a legitimate pope. (For a more detailed discussion, consult the article “Une crise sans précédents” that appeared in the journal of the Institut Universitaire saint Pie X, Vu de haut 14 (automne 2008), pp. 78-95).
    In the case of the present period, no canonical declaration has yet occurred to declare juridically the notoriety of what might be the heresy of the conciliar popes. Can we speak nonetheless about an occult heresy? It is at least beyond doubt that the attitude of these popes complies with the presuppositions of liberalism and modernism, which have been condemned by the Magisterium, and that these popes therefore favor heresy, inasmuch as they preach and put into practice the teachings of Vatican Council II and carry out all the reforms that result from it.
    Modern Theologians Say Papal Heresy is Impossible
      

    This is why, considering the apparently unanimous statements by theologians of the modern era (who consider the heresy of a pope as improbable), we respond first that their opinion does not deny that the Pope could fall into heresy; it denies that he could fall into formal and public heresy, even if it were not notorious. We respond secondly that the theological tradition is fallible and capable of reform, even if it is temporarily unanimous, since it is not constant. For example, in considering the matter concerning the Scholastic theologians who all thought unanimously that the matter of the sacrament of Holy Orders was the conferral of the instruments, Franzelin comments, op. cit., thesis 17, nos. 360-362:
      

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    Even if one could demonstrate that the consensus existed temporarily, it was not constant and, as we said, it is an argument thanks to which we prove that such a consensus, if there was one, pertained not to a firm and certain way of thinking (avis) but to an opinion.”


    The episode that we have been going through for fifty years could therefore lead theologians to revise and refine the position that had been followed since the sixteenth century. All the more since one among them, Fr. Dublanchy, op. cit., concluded in very measured terms: “This opinion is worth as much as the reasons that support it; but it is by no means guaranteed by the Church nor adopted by theologians as a whole.” We see clearly also that at the time of Vatican Council I, Msgr. Zinelli, likewise cited by the one raising the objection, affirms nothing categorical. Deeming it at most probable that the Pope will never fall into heresy, he immediately adds that, even if God were to permit it, He would not leave His Church defenseless and at the mercy of that tyranny.



    As for the argument from reason which is thought to support this opinion, we respond that even if absolute personal infallibility was advisable for the exercise of the office, this would only be a matter of suitability [convenance]. Such a privilege is not included in the promise of papal infallibility, which concerns the office only; besides, revelation says nothing about it. Sound reason even leads us to think that this infallibility is not strictly necessary: someone who tries to prove too much proves nothing, and one would run the risk of devaluating infallibility while trying to extend it beyond its limits. Therefore it remains possible that the Pope might err personally in the faith, although his office would never be engaged solemnly in the service of heresy.


    [size={defaultattr}]Recent Popes and Heresies
      

    The events that followed Vatican Council II, incidentally, sufficiently show this. Here is the analysis of Fr. Roger-Thomas Calmel, taken from his unpublished 1973 manuscript L’Église plus grande que le pape, which is preserved in the personal archives of Archbishop Lefebvre at the Saint Pius X Seminary in Ecône.
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    The privilege of infallibility will always preserve the Pope from changing the religion formally. But, even without formal changes, attempts [to make them] or acts of complicity or cowardice can go very far and become a very cruel trial for Holy Church. The modernist system, more precisely the modernist apparatus and procedures, offer the Pope a brand new occasion of sin, a possibility of evading his mission that had never before been proposed to him. Once the twofold modernist principle was admitted: first, universal reform, especially in the case of the liturgy, in the name of a certain pastoral openness to the modern world; secondly the abdication of regular, defined authority in favor of feigned, fleeting, anonymous sorts of authority that are typical of various forms of collegiality—in short, once the twofold principle of modernism penetrated into the Church, this destructive consequence followed: the apostolic tradition in matters of doctrine, morals and worship was neutralized, although it was not killed—without any need for the Pope officially and openly to deny the whole tradition and therefore to proclaim the apostasy.”
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    As for the argument that would cite history as its authority, we respond that, certainly, no pope has ever fallen into notorious heresy, but nonetheless some popes favored heresy and some still do. And that one of them was anathematized as “favens haeresim” posthumously.
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    Considering the statements by theologians from the medieval period, who consider papal heresy probable, even though these theologians think that the Pope can fall into not only material heresy but even formal and public heresy, it must be noted that they nevertheless do not maintain that the Pope’s heresy would be notorious.


    [size={defaultattr}]As for the facts of history cited by these theologians, they prove at most that the Pope can be materially heretical and favor heresy publicly, but not that he should be formally heretical in a notorious manner.[/size]