Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!  (Read 47111 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Pax Vobis

  • Supporter
  • *****
  • Posts: 13023
  • Reputation: +8242/-2560
  • Gender: Male
Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
« Reply #315 on: November 12, 2019, 10:55:06 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote
    S&S claim that Popes can be subjected to a discretionary judgment, and that this is an exception to the rule that the Pope can be judged by no one.  But, in point of fact, discretionary judgement has as its object not the Pope himself, but, as Torquemada explains, the truth of a proposition, in the case, the proposition that a given heretical Pope is in fact not a Catholic.  Pope Innocent III explains this type of judgment as, rather, meaning to "show that [the heretical pope] has ALREADY BEEN judged."  So it's SHOWING or AVERRING the a priori fact that the man has suffered loss of office.
    I don't see any contradiction between S&S and Torquemada.  It's all a semantics issue that is causing confusion.  1) Declaration of heresy and 2) Loss of office are 2 separate events. 
    .
    A.  Aug 1 - Pope speaks heresy.
    B.  Aug 1 - Cardinals rebuke him.  Pope ignores rebuke.
    C.  Aug 2 - Cardinals rebuke him a 2nd time.  Pope ignores 2nd rebuke.
    D.  Aug 3 - Cardinals give discretionary judgement that the pope is an obstinate/manifest/formal heretic, because he was obstinate on Aug 2.  Because the pope is deemed a heretic, THEN he is no longer the superior of the Cardinals.  So he can THEN be removed, since the former-pope's heresy is a "self judgement" from Divine Law.
    E.  Aug 3 - Cardinals declare that the former-pope-turned-heretic loses his office "ipso facto".
    F.  Aug 3 - The Pope HOLDS HIS OFFICE UNTIL the discretionary judgment on Aug 3.  This judgement of heresy is the CAUSE of the "ipso facto" loss of office.
    .
    People can argue that "Oh, I told you so.  I told you the pope was a heretic when he said heresy on Aug 1."  But that doesn't matter.  What matters is the Church's decision on Aug 3.  Before that date, even when the pope was obstinate on Aug 2, he still holds office UNTIL a declaration is made.  Why?  Because before a declaration from the Church, there is no authoritative decision.  Before the Cardinals deem him a formal heretic, he is simply in material error.  Before they rebuke him and follow the process, it is not determined if he is an obstinate heretic. 
    .
    1.  Material Heresy alone does not cause "ipso facto" loss of office, but a declaration/recognition of obstinacy must follow, which makes it formal heresy. 
    2.  Only the officials of the Church can recognize/judge obstinate heresy, based on Scripture and canon law.
    3.  Laymen, priests and Bishops cannot judge the pope, even in a discretionary way, but only the Cardinals, who have the authority to elect him. 
    4.  Ergo, "ipso facto" loss of office does not happen to a pope, without a recognition/judgement from the Cardinals that the pope is an obstinate/formal heretic.

    Offline Clemens Maria

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2246
    • Reputation: +1485/-605
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #316 on: November 12, 2019, 11:00:36 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • Today is the feast day of Pope St. Martin I.  St. Martin, pray for us.


    Offline PaxChristi2

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 80
    • Reputation: +69/-41
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #317 on: November 12, 2019, 11:01:16 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • :facepalm:

    Quote
    John of St. Thomas: “For the Church can declare the crime of the Pope and propose him to the faithful as one who is to be avoided [vitandus], according to Divine Law, which commands that heretics be avoided.  And the Pope who is to be avoided, as a consequence of this disposition, is necessarily rendered incapable of being the head of the Church, since he is a member to be avoided by her, and consequently unable to exercise an influx on her; therefore, by reason of this power, the Church dissolves, in a ministerial and dispositive way, the bond between the papacy and that person.  The consequence is clear: for when an agent has the power to induce a disposition in a subject, and the disposition is such that the separation of the form necessarily follows from it (since the form cannot remain with this disposition in the subject), the agent has power over the dissolution of the form, and mediately touches the form itself as having to be separated from the subject—not as having to be destroyed in itself, as is evident in the agent that corrupts a man; for the agent does not destroy the form of the man, but induces the dissolution of the form by placing in the matter a disposition that is incompatible with the form.  Therefore, because the Church has the power to declare that the Pope is to be avoided, she is able to introduce into his person a disposition that is incompatible with the papacy; and thus the papacy is dissolved ministerially and dispositively by the Church, but authoritatively by Christ; even as, in designating him through his election, she gives him the last disposition needed for him to receive the papacy that Christ our Lord bestows upon him, and thus she creates a Pope in a ministerial way.”


    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 13023
    • Reputation: +8242/-2560
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #318 on: November 12, 2019, 11:16:20 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote
    For so long as a man is certainly the pope, he possesses the fullness of power. A man who is manifestly a formal heretic is an incapable subject of the papacy. He is no pope.
    Agree. 

    Quote
    A man who is doubtfully the pope, due to indicia constituting him as suspect of heresy is to be resisted.
    Agree.

    Quote
     If he subsequently manifests pertinacity, then he is certainly no pope, even if he was believed to have been the pope before. A man can be declared a heretic by the ecclesiastical authority if he is no longer the pope; i.e., if he fell from office when his pertinacity became manifest.
    Who determines if the pope is obstinate and manifest? ...(p.s. you can't have one without the other.  You are either obstinate AND manifest or you are neither.)  Answer:  The Cardinals can rebuke the pope, based on suspicion of heresy, to determine if he is obstinate in his errors.

    Quote
    For so long as he is validly constituted as pope, he may not be judged by any power on earth, civil or ecclesiastical; not even by an ecuмenical council.
    Disagree, because this statement is too general and has no distinctions.  A pope can be "determined" to be obstinate in his heresy.  No one other than the Cardinals can make this determination.  Thus, he would immediately cease to be pope, due to Divine Law and canon law.  THEN, since he is no longer pope, he would lose his office "ipso facto" per canon law.
    .
    Where we differ is on point 3.  Only the Cardinals can determine manifest/obstinate heresy.  Ergo, only they can tell all the rest of the Church that pope x is no longer pope.  No one else can make the determination that the pope is manifest and obstinate.

    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 13023
    • Reputation: +8242/-2560
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #319 on: November 12, 2019, 11:20:53 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote
    Do you know what ipso facto means?

    You don't lose office "automatically" until it is determined you are an obstinate heretic.
    You aren't determined to be obstinate until the Church decides you are.
    Thus, you don't lose office until you are determined to be obstinate in heresy.
    .
    As I've said a thousand times, most of you think that obstinate/formal heresy can be determined outside of a Church process, which is your main error.  No one is an obstinate heretic, (as is defined by canon law) UNTIL the Church tells us so.  Without this judgement/decision, there is no "ipso facto" loss of office.


    Offline Clemens Maria

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2246
    • Reputation: +1485/-605
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #320 on: November 12, 2019, 11:21:27 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • [on Pope St. Martin I being replaced by Pope St Eugene I]

    You continue to repeat that as if it's a fact, but you've never proven it.  How do you know the newly elected Pope was universally accepted before the Pope who was "hauled off and jailed" willingly abdicated a year later?
    Read the Catholic Encyclopedia article on Pope St Eugene I:  http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05598a.htm

    Quote
    With regard to the circuмstances of his election, it can only be said that if he was forcibly placed on the Chair of Peter by the power of the emperor, in the hope that he would follow the imperial will, these calculations miscarried; and that, if he was elected against the will of the reigning pope in the first instance, Pope Martin subsequently acquiesced in his election (Ep. Martini xvii in P.L., LXXXVII).

    There is no indication that any of the Roman clergy objected to Pope Eugene's election or refused to subject themselves to his authority.  That meets your criteria for UPA.

    Offline Clemens Maria

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2246
    • Reputation: +1485/-605
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #321 on: November 12, 2019, 11:32:01 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • Well, yes.  It would help if they would lay it out in logical format.

    Proposition (de fide):  The Pope can be judged by no one.

    S&S:  that the pope can be judged by no one via a coercive judgment, concedo, that the pope can be judged by no one via a discretionary judgment nego.

    I do not deny this distinction IF by discretionary judgment is meant simply that the Church is judging whether the fact of heresy has already taken place and deposed the Pope.

    But S&S do not appear to hold this, but, rather, follow John of St. Thomas that the discretionary judgment actually causes the severing of the bond between the matter and the form.  If I were to kill the pope, I would in fact cause his loss of authority, by eliminating the matter.  This theory holds that the discretionary judgment has an analogous effect.  By declaring the man guilty of heresy, the judgement renders him unsuitable matter for sustaining the form of papal authority

    But I cannot, for the life of me, see how this is not tantamount to judging the Pope.  If God does not withdraw the authority at some point before the judgment is rendered, then the judgment is in fact being rendered against the man who is the pope.  

    And, if the Church is capable of "severing the bond," then what would stop the Church from merely withdrawing the designation?  "Hey, we changed our mind.  We're withdrawing our election of this man."  In both cases, we could stipulate, well, it's really God, in response to the Church, who removes the formal authority, so it's not really the Church stripping the man of authority.  Didn't the Church condemn an error which artificially distinguished between the man and his office ... once united by God?
    It's debatable that what S&S are calling a discretionary judgment is actually discretionary or coercive.  If S&S are claiming that the pope can submit to the decision of the council at his own discretion (as Pope Leo IV willingly subjected himself to the judgment of Emperor Louis, or Our Lord willingly subjected himself to Our Lady and St Joseph without thereby becoming an inferior), then that certainly has happened in the past (the true pope willingly resigned to end the GWS).  But I don't think that is what S&S are saying.  They seem to be saying that the discretionary judgment would have coercive power to remove the claimant from his office.  That's a contradiction in terms.  But S&S are nothing if not slippery.

    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 13023
    • Reputation: +8242/-2560
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #322 on: November 12, 2019, 11:32:33 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I really think the issue of UPA is muddying the waters.  UPA has nothing to do with a heretic pope.  2 completely separate discussions and criteria. 


    Offline PaxChristi2

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 80
    • Reputation: +69/-41
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #323 on: November 12, 2019, 11:35:36 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • Pax,

    Do you know what ipso facto means?
    There is a difference between an ipso facto excommunication and an ipso facto deprivation (loss of jurisdiction).  The former happens the moment the person commits the act to which the penalty is attached, without the need of any human judgment or declaration; the latter does requires human judgment and a declaration before it is incurred.

    Quote
    Cajetan: “The power of jurisdiction is by man’s appointment: both giving it and taking it away belong to human judgment. … more is required to incur deprivation ipso facto than to incur excommunication [ipso facto], since incurring the censure does not require a declaration, whereas incurring deprivation does, according to the jurists.” (Cajetan, De Comparatione Auctoritatis Papae et Concilii, ch. XIX).

    Suarez: “Therefore on deposing a heretical Pope, the Church would not act as superior to him, but juridically and by the consent of Christ she would declare him a heretic and therefore unworthy of Pontifical honors; he would then ipso facto and immediately be deposed by Christ…”

    John of St. Thomas: “It cannot be held that the pope, by the very fact of being a heretic, would cease to be pope antecedently to a declaration of the Church.  It is true that some seem to hold this position; but we will discuss this in the next article.  What is truly a matter of debate, is whether the pope, after he is declared by the Church to be a heretic, is deposed ipso facto by Christ the Lord, or if the Church ought to depose him.  In any case, as long as the Church has not issued a juridical declaration, he must always be considered the pope, as we will make more clear in the next article. (…) Hence, Bellarmine and Suarez are of the opinion that, by the very fact that the Pope is a manifest heretic and declared to be incorrigible, he is deposed [ipso facto] by Christ our Lord without any intermediary, and not by any authority of the Church.”



    Offline PaxChristi2

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 80
    • Reputation: +69/-41
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #324 on: November 12, 2019, 11:41:20 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • They seem to be saying that the discretionary judgment would have coercive power to remove the claimant from his office.  That's a contradiction in terms.  But S&S are nothing if not slippery.
    No, they don't seem to be saying that.  A discretionary judgment, by definition, has no coercive power.  It simply establishes the facts. It is the form of judgment used by an Arbitrator.

    Offline DecemRationis

    • Supporter
    • ****
    • Posts: 2336
    • Reputation: +882/-146
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #325 on: November 12, 2019, 11:42:11 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0

  • That's right. The universal acceptance cannot depose a sitting Pope, and no one has ever said it could.  The universal acceptance is an infallible sign that the one accepted as Pope is the Pope, and an infallible sign that all the conditions necessary for him to have become pope were satisfied.

    Now, since one of the conditions required for a man to become Pope is that the See be vacant beforehand, the universal acceptance of John XXIII proves that Siri was not the Pope, and the universal acceptance of Francis proves that Benedict's resignation was accepted by God.


    Ok, I don't have time to develop this in great detail, so I'll summarize my argument.

    S & S hold UPA to be an "infallible sign" that an elected pontiff receiving UPA satisfied all of the conditions of being pope. Well, as Fr. Kramer says, a necessary condition for a pope is possession of the Catholic faith. Thus, S & S are pointing to a post-election occurrence or fact (UPA) as proof of a prior necessary condition.

    Well, my position also sees a post-election occurrence or fact as a proof of the lack of a necessary condition, or an "infallible sign" that a condition was not satisfied - namely, the possession of the Catholic faith by the one elected: the post-election occurrence or fact being the promulgation or teaching of error in a "pope's" authoritative magisterium that contradicts Catholic dogma, doctrine or Tradition.

    I am basing this on the assumption or belief that a bishop who possesses the Catholic faith will receive the charism of a never-failing faith as successor of Peter (Luke 22:32), and that this will protect a true pope  (who met ALL the necessary conditions for a true pope) from teaching or promulgating anything in his authentic magisterium that contradicts or is in opposition to Catholic dogma, doctrine or Tradition. If an elected "pope" does so, it indicates that he does not possess that charism. If he does not receive that charism, it means he lacked a necessary condition to be a true pope. Ergo, he lacked the Catholic faith prior to his election: if the Catholic cardinals and the laity didn't see that, it was because the lack of faith, or the heresy, was occult and hidden - but there nonetheless, explaining the subsequent magisterial error, something which could not be in a true pope.

    Thus, the teaching or promulgation of error is an "infallible sign" of a lack of a necessary condition of the person elected as pope (cf. S & S's use of a post-election occurrence or fact (UPA) as an "infallible sign" of the possession of the necessary conditions).

    This post-election "infallible sign" is preceded by another pre-election "infallible sign" or mark, though it is hidden: the person's occult heresy, or lack of the Catholic faith when elected. If we could see that sign or fact of the occult heresy it would infallibly tell us that that person, if elected pope, would lack the charism and protections given to Peter and his faith expressed in his teaching office.

    This is why I posted something previously saying it is not settled teaching that an occult heretic - lacking the interior, spiritual bond with Christ of supernatural faith -  is a member of the church. Of course, the heresy being occult, we can not do otherwise than treat such a person as Catholic, and even perhaps, as the Cardinal electors may have done, elect him to the papacy, since any impediment would have been hidden and the person would have appeared a fit candidate.

    As far as S & S and UPA, I do not know how they regard its status: de fida, doctrine, part of Tradition, etc. I can say this though: Paul IV issued a papal bull, cuм Ex Apostolatus, which asserted something contrary to UPA, namely that not even unanimous acceptance of the electors or the Church subsequently for any period of time could not legitimatize a heretic elected and make him "pope." And he said no "declaration" was necessary.

    If Paul IV could promulgate an authoritative bull for the Church which contradicts (not merely being erroneous or simply wrong in some manner) UPA - Catholic doctrine, dogma, official teaching, whatever - why are we getting so bent out of shape when it happens or has happened post-V2?

    I attach pics of the original Rheims commentary on Luke 22:32, courtesy of Dr. von Peters's wonderful edition in Roman type, http://realdouayrheims.com/.

    DR
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 13023
    • Reputation: +8242/-2560
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #326 on: November 12, 2019, 11:46:36 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • Quote
    They seem to be saying that the discretionary judgment would have coercive power to remove the claimant from his office. 
    Not what they are saying.

    1.  The discretionary judgement is ONLY related to the issue of obstinacy or pertinacity in error.
         a.  Such a judgement comes after 2 rebukes.
         b.  Such a judgement is a determination of fact or guilt (i.e.  pope A knows the truth and obstinately holds to error, even after being shown the truth).
    2. Once a person is deemed an obstinate heretic, then they have "judged themselves" and are guilty of the sin of heresy, in a formal sense, per Divine Law.
         a.  Once they are a formal/obstinate heretic, they are no longer part of the Church and they are no longer a pope, bishop, priest, etc.
         b.  In the case of a pope, they are now a "former pope" and a "former catholic" and thus, the Cardinals are superiors to them.
         c.  This "former pope" is now guilty under canon law, and would "ipso facto" lose his office, and be declared a former pope by the Cardinals.
    3.  Loss of office "ipso facto" is caused by two events:
         a.  PRIMARY CAUSE - the person is deemed an obstinate/manifest/formal heretic.
         b.  SECONDARY CAUSE - the person's heresy is PUNISHED by loss of office, per canon law.

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 47696
    • Reputation: +28206/-5287
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #327 on: November 12, 2019, 11:55:47 AM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!1
  • So you disagree with Bellarmine?

    Yes, I feel that S&S are in fact disagreeing with Bellarmine, and that's OK.  What I object to is the attempt to twist Bellarmine to make it appear as though Bellarmine agrees with them.

    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 13023
    • Reputation: +8242/-2560
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #328 on: November 12, 2019, 11:57:19 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote
    The fourth opinion is of Cajetan. There, he teaches, that a manifestly heretical Pope is not ipso facto deposed; but can and ought to be deposed by the Church. Now in my judgment, such an opinion cannot be defended. For in the first place, that a manifest heretic would be ipso facto deposed, is proven from authority and reason. The Authority is of St. Paul, who commands Titus [323], that after two censures, that is, after he appears manifestly pertinacious, an heretic is to be shunned: and he understands this before excommunication and sentence of a judge.
    Manifest heresy = obstinate heresy = Church process to determine obstinacy has already happened.
    .
    Cajetan argued that there should be 2 Church determinations.  The first, to determine obstinate/manifest heresy.  THEN a second, to state that a loss of office had occurred.  +Bellarmine argues that once obstinate/manifest heresy is determined, that loss of office follows automatically.  The debate here is over a minor point.
    .
    Again, manifest heresy CANNOT be determined by ANYONE other than the CHURCH.  The way that +Bellarmine uses the word "manifest" is akin to "obstinate", and not how dictionary.com defines it.  In the scenario of heresy, if manifest simply means "obvious" or "public" then any of us can judge the pope guilty of heresy, and there is no need for the Cardinals or a council or anyone to do anything.  But this would lead to disagreements and chaos.  It is manifest that +Bellarmine's use of the word "manifest" presupposes the idea of "obstinacy" which presupposes that the Church has rebuked and determined that obstinacy already exists.

    Offline Clemens Maria

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2246
    • Reputation: +1485/-605
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #329 on: November 12, 2019, 11:58:18 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • No, they don't seem to be saying that.  A discretionary judgment, by definition, has no coercive power.  It simply establishes the facts. It is the form of judgment used by an Arbitrator.
    Your argument, if it makes any sense at all, is that the claimant is the true pope with supreme authority until the moment a discretionary judgment is made against him.  If that's not the case, then you have no argument with sedes and your entire book is a fraud.  The fact that none of us here understand your slippery arguments is prima facie evidence that you are dishonest liar.  No one understands it because it sucks.  You are a meathead who wasted 15 years of your life studying a topic without ever conforming yourself to the doctrines of the theologians you were reading.  Instead you picked through it and cobbled together a twisted theory that cannot be found in any theology book anywhere.  Did the Novus Ordo people discover your theory when they decided that Frank had gone too far?  No, they came to the same exact conclusion as the sedes.  Does Cardinal Burke agree with you? No.  Does Ed Peters agree with you? No.  You and your buddy are losers who are trying to prop up the failed R&R position.