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Author Topic: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!  (Read 46950 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
« Reply #255 on: November 11, 2019, 06:40:37 PM »
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  • Quote
    It is absolutely clear that you are obstinately and knowingly entrenched in heresy.
    I guess Torquemada and +Bellarmine were heretics too, then, because they spoke of councils and depositions?  You really are a simpleton. 

    Offline Don Paolo

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #256 on: November 11, 2019, 07:00:58 PM »
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  • No "Pax Vobis", you are the simpleton: Bellarmine was writing before Vatican I; just as St. Thomas wrote erroneously on the Immaculate Conception before Ineffabilis Deus. If what he had written had been written after the dogmatic definitions were made, then he would indeed have been a heretic -- but being a saint, (unlike you) he certainly would not have expressed a contrary opinion after the the dogma had been defined.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #257 on: November 11, 2019, 07:10:24 PM »
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  • Ok, fair point.  But still, I don’t think your quote applies to the question at hand.  No one is denying that the true pope has full powers/jurisdiction.  No one is denying that a CONFIRMED heretic pope loses all of these powers.  What is under debate: In the intermediary state, before a pope is declared a heretic, but when he appears (materially) to be one, are his spiritual or jurisdictional powers impaired?  Your quote does not address this situation at all.  

    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #258 on: November 11, 2019, 07:27:19 PM »
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  • There is no universal peaceful acceptance of Jorge Bergoglio as the pope. I posted an answer to this idea in another thread. Let me copy/paste it here:

    In any case, there is no universal public acceptance of George Bergoglio as pope on the part of Catholics, so the question is moot anyway. If someone is appealing to the mass of people who call themselves Catholic today, most of them don't believe that abortion, divorce, contraception, sodomy, etc. are mortal sins. Most of them don't believe in transubstantiation. People who don't accept these teachings are not Catholics, therefore their opinions are not relevant to a discussion of whether most Catholics accept George Bergoglio as pope.

    Now, once you eliminate all those heretics from the discussion, the people you are left with are basically the ones we would call traditional Catholics, broadly speaking. Among those people it is true that a majority of them, probably, believe Francis is the pope, but the fact is that significant numbers of them don't. Probably many of them think George is likely the pope but are confused about how he is able to be such an open heretic and pope at the same time, and may be unsure in their own minds about the question. Then you have some who think Ratzinger is the pope. Then you have the sedevacantists. But however you look at it, among people who profess the Catholic Faith and do actually accept its teachings, there is nothing even remotely approaching a universal consensus that George is pope. So I think the UPA discussion is irrelevant to the current situation. Whatever acceptance George enjoys, it is far from being either universal or peaceful among Catholics.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #259 on: November 11, 2019, 07:31:26 PM »
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  • That's my personally position, but I would nuance it a bit. To clarity what I wrote previously, I wouldn't say he lacks the authority.  He always possesses full supreme authority as an undivided and inseparable habit; but being a pertinacious heretic and a manifest wolf in sheep's clothing has the unfortunately effect of preventing him from licitly and validly exercise certain aspects of it (in certain circuмstances), such as excommunicating those who resist him or preventing the Bishops from gather at an imperfect council.

    Well, see, I'm not buying that.  Either he has "full supreme authority" or he does not.  There's nothing limited about "full supreme".  I'm with those theologians who hold papa dubius papa nullus.  Not "mostly papa" or "almost always papa".  Or papa "except when it comes to situations x, y, or z".


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #260 on: November 11, 2019, 07:36:15 PM »
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  • He would have the authority to publish a new missal and express the "wish" and "hope" that everyone really likes it (which is essentially what Paul VI did), but he would not have the authority to abrogate the true Mass (which Paul VI never did).

    Oh, please. come on now.  Paul VI:  "here, try this.  You might like it."  This is a ridiculous stretch, and saying something like this proves your insincerity.  You are clearly in the business of justifying R&R at all costs, regardless of how preposterous it might be.

    As a true Pope, he could not actively promote for use of the faithful a bad, harmful Rite of Mass that displeases God.  That is contrary to the Church's indefectibility.  Trent taught simply that it's heretical to assert that the Mass "used by" the Church can be harmful, not "forced upon" them.  And you and go ahead and try to tell those priests who wished to continue saying the Tridentine Mass whether it not it was forced upon them.

    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #261 on: November 11, 2019, 07:39:17 PM »
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  • I could go in any direction about the detailed quibbling, but what I cannot accept as a matter of faith, is that the Church's Magisterium could go so badly off the rails as to be leading souls to hell, that the Church's Universal Discipline, the Mass, can be harmful to faith, to souls, and must be avoided by Catholics to please God.  Those propositions are anathema to me.  And that really is the problem most sedevacantists have ... it isn't Bellarmine vs. Cajetan vs. John of St. Thomas disputing the finer points of how many heretics can dance on the head of a pin.

    I believe what follows in the depths of my soul, and this can never be dislodge from me -- (from Msgr. Fenton)
    Quote
    ... God has given the Holy Father a kind of infallibility distinct from the charism of doctrinal infallibility in the strict sense. He has so constructed and ordered the Church that those who follow the directives given to the entire kingdom of God on earth will never be brought into the position of ruining themselves spiritually through this obedience. Our Lord dwells within His Church in such a way that those who obey disciplinary and doctrinal directives of this society can never find themselves displeasing God through their adherence to the teachings and the commands given to the universal Church militant. Hence there can be no valid reason to discountenance even the non-infallible teaching authority of Christ’s vicar on earth.
    ...
    It is, of course, possible that the Church might come to modify its stand on some detail of teaching presented as non-infallible matter in a papal encyclical. The nature of the auctoritas providentiae doctrinalis within the Church is such, however, that this fallibility extends to questions of relatively minute detail or of particular application. The body of doctrine on the rights and duties of labor, on the Church and State, or on any other subject treated extensively in a series of papal letters directed to and normative for the entire Church militant could not be radically or completely erroneous. The infallible security Christ wills that His disciples should enjoy within His Church is utterly incompatible with such a possibility.

    To me, this isn't just Msgr. Fenton's opinion, but I hold this to be true de fide, with anything else being an implicit rejection of the Church's indefectibility.
    Yes, and does anyone here think that those prelates, clergy and laity who joined Frank in worshipping the Pachamama demon in the Vatican Gardens (because they embraced V2's teaching on religious freedom) or joined in Assisi '86 or prayed in a mosque, does anyone here think that those people are not ruining themselves?  That's why I posted the link to Canon Smith's "Must I believe it" article.  If a pope is peacefully accepted their is no danger of being ruined when conforming your heart and mind to his teaching and discipline.  But now we are told by the SSPX that the only way to save our souls is to obey the SSPX clerics who enjoy no divine promise of infallibility.  You won't find that in any pre-V2 theology manuals.

    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #262 on: November 11, 2019, 07:40:12 PM »
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  • Well, see, I'm not buying that.  Either he has "full supreme authority" or he does not.
    Yes, this is the only logical position. This is what gives us the axiom of "papa dubius, papa nullus", as Ladislaus points out.
    I think the UPA argument can be refuted simply by thinking about a time in the Church when all are agreed that the pope was universally and peacefully accepted. Let's take the year 1950, when Pius XII was reigning gloriously. How many people were on internet forums (or whatever equivalent existed back then) torturously discussing whether he was the real pope? How many good Catholics simply could not believe he was the real pope? How many people thought they had to choose between believing in the Catholic Faith and believing in the teachings of Pope Pius XII, and that the two were diametrically opposed? How many good Catholics simply did not believe he was the pope at all, or thought Pius XI was still alive somewhere, and he was somehow still the pope? I could go on.

    The answer is that in the in 1950 the answer to all those questions is "nobody", and now the answer to all those questions is "many thousands of people."

    That should suffice to answer the question of whether Francis is universally, peacefully accepted as the pope.

    EDIT: formatting


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #263 on: November 11, 2019, 07:49:55 PM »
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  • Ok, fair point.  But still, I don’t think your quote applies to the question at hand.  No one is denying that the true pope has full powers/jurisdiction.

    Now, despite the fact that we're still disagreeing, I feel that this thread is moving and getting somewhere.

    We're down to the question of how an Imperfect Council could possibly convene against the will of a true pope.  Now, an Imperfect Council (by its very definition) can certainly convene in the absence of a pope.  But if a Pope who's suspect of heresy cannot dissolve it, then he no longer has full supreme authority over the Church.  Another explanation is required.  It is not enough to gratuitously assert, without proof, that he is limited in only the specific case of dissolving a Council or excommunicating his adversaries.  Limited is limited, and full supreme is full supreme.

    So this heretical dubius pope cannot be the Pope simpliciter but must be considered a Pope secundum quid.  This doubtful pope has attained the formal status of being materially deposable.  He is pope but he isn't.  Bishop Guerard to the rescue!

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #264 on: November 11, 2019, 07:51:02 PM »
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  • PC2, are you and Fr Chazal in agreement, generally speaking?
    .

    PC2 states that the Pope retains full supreme authority except in specific circuмstances.  Father Chazal clearly stated the such a pope loses all authority and is completely impounded or quarantined.  I obviously side with Father Chazal here.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #265 on: November 11, 2019, 07:54:29 PM »
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  • Yes, this is the only logical position. This is what gives us the axiom of "papa dubius, papa nullus", as Ladislaus points out.
    I think the UPA argument can be refuted simply by thinking about a time in the Church when all are agreed that the pope was universally and peacefully accepted. Let's take the year 1950, when Pius XII was reigning gloriously. How many people were on internet forums (or whatever equivalent existed back then) torturously discussing whether he was the real pope? How many good Catholics simply could not believe he was the real pope? How many people thought they had to choose between believing in the Catholic Faith and believing in the teachings of Pope Pius XII, and that the two were diametrically opposed? How many good Catholics simply did not believe he was the pope at all, or thought Pius XI was still alive somewhere, and he was somehow still the pope? I could go on.

    The answer is that in the in 1950 the answer to all those questions is "nobody", and now the answer to all those questions is "many thousands of people."

    That should suffice to answer the question of whether Francis is universally, peacefully accepted as the pope.

    EDIT: formatting

    Agreed.  These Vatican II papal claimants clearly have no UPA.  I have posed this before.  Imagine yourself living during the time of Pius XII.  Does anyone have the faintest thought in their mind that Pius XII isn't pope?  THAT is UPA.  What we see here is absolutely nothing like that.  We have people in the Novus Ordo saying that Bergoglio is a heretic.  Bergoglio has made it obvious even to those drinking so much of the Conciliar Kool-Aid that they didn't notice the same heresies in his predecessors.

    Bergoglio may end up being the unwitting savior of the Church by exposing all this ... just as Gollum unwittingly saved the day in the Lord of the Rings.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #266 on: November 11, 2019, 07:59:19 PM »
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  • "absolute fullness of this supreme power" over the whole Church

    Indeed, the word "absolute" completely cinches it.  Absolute precludes being blocked by circuмstances from dissolving a Council.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #267 on: November 11, 2019, 08:03:45 PM »
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  • There is no universal peaceful acceptance of Jorge Bergoglio as the pope. I posted an answer to this idea in another thread. Let me copy/paste it here:

    In any case, there is no universal public acceptance of George Bergoglio as pope on the part of Catholics, so the question is moot anyway. If someone is appealing to the mass of people who call themselves Catholic today, most of them don't believe that abortion, divorce, contraception, sodomy, etc. are mortal sins. Most of them don't believe in transubstantiation. People who don't accept these teachings are not Catholics, therefore their opinions are not relevant to a discussion of whether most Catholics accept George Bergoglio as pope.

    Now, once you eliminate all those heretics from the discussion, the people you are left with are basically the ones we would call traditional Catholics, broadly speaking. Among those people it is true that a majority of them, probably, believe Francis is the pope, but the fact is that significant numbers of them don't. Probably many of them think George is likely the pope but are confused about how he is able to be such an open heretic and pope at the same time, and may be unsure in their own minds about the question. Then you have some who think Ratzinger is the pope. Then you have the sedevacantists. But however you look at it, among people who profess the Catholic Faith and do actually accept its teachings, there is nothing even remotely approaching a universal consensus that George is pope. So I think the UPA discussion is irrelevant to the current situation. Whatever acceptance George enjoys, it is far from being either universal or peaceful among Catholics.

    This is very well articulated.  I'd add to the other heresies of the Conciliar adherents that the vast majority of them do not so much as believe in the fact that the Catholic Church and the Magisterium are the rule of faith.  Theologians who treat of UPA state that the principle derives from the fact that the Church cannot adhere to a false rule of faith.  But 99% of Conciliarists are so-called cafeteria Catholics, those who think they are their own rule of faith and can pick and choose whatever they like from among Church teaching.  So they do not even admit the existence of a rule of faith, much less "adhere" to one.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #268 on: November 11, 2019, 08:06:14 PM »
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  • No, sorry.  What I meant is that this is the biggest problem sedevacantists have with R&R.  I too agree with the Msgr. Fenton ... and the sedevacantists on this particular issue.  What I'm trying to say is that the bigger concern for sedevacantists, the bigger issue they have with R&R, is the implications for the Church's holiness and indefectibility.  I think we can get too mired down in the finer points of this dispute regarding Bellarmine vs. Cajetan vs. John of St. Thomas, etc.  We can get lost in the weeds and lose sight of the bigger issue.
    I had a feeling this is what you meant, but I wanted to be sure.

    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #269 on: November 11, 2019, 08:22:15 PM »
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  • This is very well articulated.  I'd add to the other heresies of the Conciliar adherents that the vast majority of them do not so much as believe in the fact that the Catholic Church and the Magisterium are the rule of faith.  Theologians who treat of UPA state that the principle derives from the fact that the Church cannot adhere to a false rule of faith.  But 99% of Conciliarists are so-called cafeteria Catholics, those who think they are their own rule of faith and can pick and choose whatever they like from among Church teaching.  So they do not even admit the existence of a rule of faith.
    PaxChristi2 said:
    Quote
    UPA has [nothing] to do with the discretionary judgment.
    Can we all agree that if there is UPA then there cannot possibly be a discretionary judgment against the Roman Pontiff?  We must adhere to a UPA pope.  There is no way around it.  The only way not to adhere to a pope is to first of all deny that he is UPA.  But PaxChristi2 is asserting UPA.  So he can't possibly justify the possibility of a discretionary judgment by a council (or the cardinals).  He has to choose one or the other.  Either UPA and obedience or not UPA and resistance.