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Author Topic: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!  (Read 47121 times)

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Offline PaxChristi2

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Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
« Reply #225 on: November 11, 2019, 03:07:25 PM »
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  • And how are we to know that the council is a true council? Even true councils can act and teach in error when they are not doing so in union with the pope. 
    The only way we would know for sure is when the next Pope confirmed it.   The Council of Pisa attempted to resolve the Great Western Schism and failed.  It even judged the true Pope to be a notorious heretic and declared him ipso facto deposed; yet he remained pope until he resigned during the Council of Constance.  

    Offline PaxChristi2

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #226 on: November 11, 2019, 03:12:37 PM »
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  • http://sedevacantist.com/believe.html
    That article doesn't address the question  What do the theologians say is required for the peaceful and universal acceptance of a Pope? That's not a hard question if you know the answer.  And if you do know the answer you'll know that all the recent Popes met the criterion.  


    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #227 on: November 11, 2019, 03:27:11 PM »
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  • Quote from: Clemens Maria

    "Private interpretation" is a loaded term.  It has bad connotations.  And I think it is being used in the wrong context here.  To see why, consider the Great Western Schism.  Was St. Catherine of Siena using private interpretation when she submitted to Pope Urban VI?  At the same time, was St. Vincent Ferrer using private interpretation when he submitted to Clement VII?  If you read about the circuмstances you will understand why it was difficult to know at the time who was the true Roman Pontiff.  We are all responsible for identifying where the Church is.  If some man wearing a roman collar opens a church in your neighborhood and claims to be the Catholic Church, you are responsible for knowing whether his claim is true or not.  Sometimes it will be very easy to know and other times it will be more difficult.  We happen to be living in a time when it is more difficult.  But it was also difficult during the Great Western Schism and we had multiple saints who chose the wrong guy and were still canonized afterwards.  But in the GWS case, at least both claimants actually professed the Catholic faith.  Today, the guy wearing the white cassock is worshipping demons and yet still Catholics are calling him the pope.  I'm not expecting those Catholics to be canonized when the smoke clears.

    forlorn's response:
    Well that's kinda the point. The fact that even learned and holy saints guessed wrong proves the peril of private interpretation, and the fact that people were left to private interpretation as to who the pope was is largely why the Schism lasted so long. Most likely not even the popes themselves were sure who the real pope was. My point is that any General Council to depose a heretical pope would lead us to a situation just as bad as the GWS at the very least by virtue of the fact it'd split the Church in two, with Catholics forced to use private interpretation to decide which side is correct.

    No, I'm not making your point for you.  Was St. Vincent Ferrer guilty of private interpretation when he followed the Cardinals who falsely claimed that Clement VII was the true Catholic pope?  Was St. Catherine of Siena guilty of private interpretation when she followed the Cardinals who correctly claimed Urban VI was the true pope?  What was the difference between their two judgements aside from the fact that one was correct and the other was wrong?  Did St. Vincent Ferrer commit a sin?  What should he have done differently, in your opinion?

    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #228 on: November 11, 2019, 03:30:38 PM »
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  • That article doesn't address the question  What do the theologians say is required for the peaceful and universal acceptance of a Pope? That's not a hard question if you know the answer.  And if you do know the answer you'll know that all the recent Popes met the criterion.  
    No they don't.

    https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/universal-acceptance-is-a-catholic-doctrine-not-mere-theological-opinion/

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #229 on: November 11, 2019, 03:36:43 PM »
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  • Nope, that's not what they believe.

    Have you yet affirmed or denied that you are either Siscoe or Salza?


    Offline PaxChristi2

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #230 on: November 11, 2019, 03:38:35 PM »
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  • If it is metaphysically impossible for an inferior to accept the resignation of a superior, it must also be metaphysically impossible for an inferior to make a discretionary judgement on a superior.  I think Ladislaus has it right when he says that any discretionary judgement being made by the Cardinals or a Council is not being made on the pope (the superior) but on the man's claim to the papacy.  

    Popes have been judged by a discretionary judgment while they remained Pope.  These were true Pope who were being judged for alleged crimes they had committed.  The discretionary judgment was not seeking to determine if they were Popes.  Bellarmine has a chapter on this in De Concilli.

    Quote
    And that discretionary judgement presupposes that there is NOT universal peaceful acceptance of the claim. 

    The popes who were judged with a discretionary judgment were peacefully and universally accepted.


    Quote
     So S&S can't have their cake and eat it too.  They can't claim UPA and then also claim that Cardinals could make a discretionary judgement on the man that everyone obeys as the true pope.  So which is it?  Is their UPA or not? 

    Perfect example of how two false suppositions easily end in an quandry.   UPA has noting to do with the discretionary judgment.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #231 on: November 11, 2019, 03:39:20 PM »
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  • Care to elaborate?

    Yes, I'd be interested in an elaboration.  To me it seems that the entire argument of S&S is that the Pope continues to have full papal authority until it's declared otherwise by the Church in a General Council.

    To this end, it would be important to know whether PC2 is in fact either Salza or Siscoe.  If not, then I'd prefer not to get into the battle of exegesis of S&S, since it's difficult enough to interpret the actual theologians and Doctors who dealt with this subject.

    Offline PaxChristi2

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #232 on: November 11, 2019, 03:41:37 PM »
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  • No they don't.

    https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/universal-acceptance-is-a-catholic-doctrine-not-mere-theological-opinion/
    No links.  It's a simple question that does not require a long answer.  What do the theologians say is required for the peaceful and universal acceptance of a Pope. If you'd rather quote a theologian, that's fine, but don't just post a link.


    Offline PaxChristi2

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #233 on: November 11, 2019, 03:48:53 PM »
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  • Have you yet affirmed or denied that you are either Siscoe or Salza?

    Affirmed.

    Quote
    Ladislaus: To me it seems that the entire argument of S&S is that the Pope continues to have full papal authority until it's declared otherwise by the Church in a General Council.

    I replied to that a few comments earlier.  I'll be interested in hearing your reply.  And when you do reply, be sure to remember what your own position is, since if you do, you cannot possibly object to what I wrote.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #234 on: November 11, 2019, 03:50:35 PM »
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  • PC2, you still haven't answered my question:

    Is there anything that would prevent a heretical Pope from dissolving a General Council from its inception?

    Is there anything that would prevent a heretical Pope from instantly removing every single bishop who doesn't believe the same heresy he holds?


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #235 on: November 11, 2019, 03:52:19 PM »
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  • Affirmed.

    OK, thank you.  I asked because you wrote of Siscoe and Salza in the third person.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #236 on: November 11, 2019, 03:56:12 PM »
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  • and the true Pope who is suspected of heresy, lack the authority to prevent a council from convening to resolve the matter, and lacks the authority to dissolve the council while it is considering the matter.  

    How can a True Pope lack the authority to dissolve a Council?  How does not this reject the teaching of Lateran V?

    You can only say that a Pope who's suspect of heresy LACKS FULL PAPAL AUTHORITY, that his authority is somehow crippled.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #237 on: November 11, 2019, 04:17:39 PM »
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  • PC2, you actually cited 2 cases, but I focused on one ...

    1) multiple disputed popes
    2) true pope suspect of heresy

    In both cases, isn't the common denominator that they are "doubtful" popes?

    Is this a case where a papa dubius lacks full papal authority?

    So if a pope who's suspect of heresy lacks the authority to dissolve a General Council, then what other aspects of his authority are also somehow "suspended"?  Nestorius' ability to excommunicate people perhaps?  What else?  Does the doubtful pope have the authority to define a dogma?  Does the doubtful pope have the authority to promulgate and impose a new Rite of Mass?  Does the doubtful pope have the authority to issue encyclicals that are to be given assent by the faithful?  In all your studies, have you taken into consideration the status of the papa dubius, the doubtful pope?

    This is actually drawing things closer to Father Chazal's sedimpeditism and sedeprivationism ... is it not?

    Father Chazal studied the theologians as well and he came to the conclusion that heretical popes are in fact "suspended" or "quarantined" or "impounded" and that they lack all authority, even though they remain legally in office until the Church declares otherwise.   THIS makes sense to me.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #238 on: November 11, 2019, 04:30:53 PM »
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  • Right. If we mostly agree on the principles, the next question becomes, how do we proceed? And even more fundamentally, have even 1% of the Bishops of the Teaching Church today (whom we both agree must pronounce the declaratory sentence, right?) agreed to proceed to making such a declaration. The two Bishops, imho, who are the most likely to consider it, would probably be Bishop Athanasius Schneider and Cardinal Raymond Burke. Cardinal Burke has said, loss of office would be automatic, but H.E. obviously doesn't believe it has happened yet, and continues to refer to the Pope as Pope, even while criticizing many of his actions and statements. And Bp. Athanasius seems to be of the view that a heretic-Pope is a rare event to which the Church has no other defense than to "last it out" and of course to contradict the Pope, as H.E. did in the Abu Dhabi falsehood, the pachamama idolatry, and other such things. But, what about the other 5000+ Bishops in the Church? So, it doesn't seem to me, Ladislaus, that this kind of thing can even get off the ground until we have at least 50 Bishops who are ready to consider declaring loss of office. What do you think about that?

    Exactly.  I have brought this up also.  Let's say that Amor Laetitiae is in fact heretical ... and it certainly seems to be the case.  Given the fact that 99% of the hierarchy are either heretical themselves or asleep at the switch or don't care or too lazy to rebuke Bergoglio or whatever ... then how can we hope, naturally speaking, that it can ever get resolved by a General Council?

    Regardless of what position one takes regarding the status of a heretical pope, there's no question but that we just have to "last it out".  God will provide the solution ... in His time.

    In the MEANTIME, while we wait, what is our own personal response?  Given their "doubtful" state, I think that we simply adhere to Tradition and wait it out.  Since they are, in my mind, doubtful, then I am not obliged to accept their Magisterium and their Mass, since those too then are doubtful.

    Despite the fact that, considering the question ontologically, the sedeprivationist/sedimpoundist position makes the most sense, that's for the Church to ultimately sort out.  In my own personal response, I can go so far only as to say that I am "in doubt".

    That's why I have referred to myself as a sede-doubtist.  This position actually dovetails nicely with my previous responses, just above, to PC2.  If the suspect Pope cannot dissolve a heretical Council, it must only be because he's crippled somehow by the mere suspicion of heresy from exercising the plenitude of papal authority.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #239 on: November 11, 2019, 04:39:34 PM »
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  • I could go in any direction about the detailed quibbling, but what I cannot accept as a matter of faith, is that the Church's Magisterium could go so badly off the rails as to be leading souls to hell, that the Church's Universal Discipline, the Mass, can be harmful to faith, to souls, and must be avoided by Catholics to please God.  Those propositions are anathema to me.  And that really is the problem most sedevacantists have ... it isn't Bellarmine vs. Cajetan vs. John of St. Thomas disputing the finer points of how many heretics can dance on the head of a pin.

    I believe what follows in the depths of my soul, and this can never be dislodge from me -- (from Msgr. Fenton)
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    ... God has given the Holy Father a kind of infallibility distinct from the charism of doctrinal infallibility in the strict sense. He has so constructed and ordered the Church that those who follow the directives given to the entire kingdom of God on earth will never be brought into the position of ruining themselves spiritually through this obedience. Our Lord dwells within His Church in such a way that those who obey disciplinary and doctrinal directives of this society can never find themselves displeasing God through their adherence to the teachings and the commands given to the universal Church militant. Hence there can be no valid reason to discountenance even the non-infallible teaching authority of Christ’s vicar on earth.
    ...
    It is, of course, possible that the Church might come to modify its stand on some detail of teaching presented as non-infallible matter in a papal encyclical. The nature of the auctoritas providentiae doctrinalis within the Church is such, however, that this fallibility extends to questions of relatively minute detail or of particular application. The body of doctrine on the rights and duties of labor, on the Church and State, or on any other subject treated extensively in a series of papal letters directed to and normative for the entire Church militant could not be radically or completely erroneous. The infallible security Christ wills that His disciples should enjoy within His Church is utterly incompatible with such a possibility.

    To me, this isn't just Msgr. Fenton's opinion, but I hold this to be true de fide, with anything else being an implicit rejection of the Church's indefectibility.