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Author Topic: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!  (Read 47200 times)

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Offline Quo vadis Domine

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Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
« Reply #180 on: November 11, 2019, 09:07:07 AM »
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  • This is a huge problem for Siscoe and Salza and their followers.

    What happens if a group of bishops intends to convene a General Council, and the heretic Pope instantly deposes every single one of the bishops who has agreed to hold such a Council?

    You could argue, "oh, well, that would be unjust."  No, sorry, there's nothing "unjust" about the Pope replacing a bishop.  He's not excommunicating them, just replacing them.  He could replace a bishop because he doesn't like his body odor, for any reason, or for no reason, since they serve entirely at his pleasure.  If, as per Siscoe and Salza, this man continues to hold authority, then the bishops' authority derives entirely from his appointment of them ... and he has ever right and ability to replace them, for any reason.

    This is an absolute check-mate against Siscoe and Salza.
    This is one of the best arguments I’ve seen made against the R&R position.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #181 on: November 11, 2019, 09:10:35 AM »
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  • If a heretical Pope (like Francis) would be deposed by a Council, I would indeed be able to see it with my own eyes.

    Do you REALLY expect that this could happen (naturally speaking) ... given the current hierarchy?


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #182 on: November 11, 2019, 09:11:57 AM »
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  • The devout laity, monastics, Priests, and a small handful of true Bishops are the Church because where the Bishop is there is the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic faith. As long as one true Bishop can consecrate other Bishops and Priests, the True Church will continue. This will most likely be what will happen in the End Times, and many priests are convinced that we are in the End Times.

    I agree with you.  That's why I don't think that the "Universal Acceptance" by the Novus Ordo means anything.

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #183 on: November 11, 2019, 09:13:30 AM »
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  • If Francis looks like a heretic, talks like a heretic, and walks like a heretic, then he must be a heretical duck. Francis hides his papal cross when in the presence of Jews. He denies Christ and is ashamed of Him, our Lord and our God, so he is not only a heretic but an apostate. How worse can it get?

    What did the Church do during the Arian heresy? Didn't the holy ones in the Church continue to consecrate bishops and ordain priests so the faith was preserved? Isn't that what we are doing today?

    Isn't the heretic Francis far worse than the Arians? Arians declared that there was a time when Christ was not God. Francis has declared that Christ was never God. Actually, Francis' belief is more consistent with that of the perfidious Jews who committed the sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Has he gone that far? Does he worship with Satanists and celebrate Black Masses?

    Pope St. Pius X did say that Modernism is the synthesis of all heresies. Francis is the culmination of a long standing infiltration of Modernists into the Church, which began, really, with the French revolution. As +ABL said, Rome is occupied by a Modernist sect. The Modernists before Francis were bad, too. They just weren't always obvious about it.

    God has not stopped the occupation of His Church by Modernists. We have to be prudent, and appeal to God to end the Crisis. In the meantime, it would be a really good thing if Francis could be deposed. 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #184 on: November 11, 2019, 09:13:47 AM »
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  • If a heretical Pope (like Francis) would be deposed by a Council, I would indeed be able to see it with my own eyes. It would be the best outcome, based on what John of St. Thomas wrote.
    You do realize that it heresy to say that a council is above a pope, do you not? 
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #185 on: November 11, 2019, 09:14:10 AM »
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  • What did the Church do during the Arian heresy? Didn't the holy ones in the Church continue to consecrate bishops and ordain priests so the faith was preserved? Isn't that what we are doing today?

    Thankfully, during the Arian crisis, the Pope never went full-blown Arian.  Now, Honorius was at times condemned for being soft on it, but he was definitely not a full-blown pertinacious Arian.  But, see, what if he HAD been?  Since the vast majority of the hierarchy had gone Arian (by most estimates), what could have been done about him ... according to General Council theory?

    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #186 on: November 11, 2019, 09:15:43 AM »
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  • Well clearly the pope's assent is not required if the pope is a heretic, but how can we objectively tell a group of bishops falsely deposing a true pope in an invalid and schismatic council from a group of bishops deposing a heretical pope in a legitimate and valid general council? I don't think there is any objective way to tell, you'd have to rely on your private interpretation("do I believe the bishops trying to depose the pope, or do I believe the pope and the bishops who support him?"). And relying on private interpretation is a recipe for disaster.
    "Private interpretation" is a loaded term.  It has bad connotations.  And I think it is being used in the wrong context here.  To see why, consider the Great Western Schism.  Was St. Catherine of Siena using private interpretation when she submitted to Pope Urban VI?  At the same time, was St. Vincent Ferrer using private interpretation when he submitted to Clement VII?  If you read about the circuмstances you will understand why it was difficult to know at the time who was the true Roman Pontiff.  We are all responsible for identifying where the Church is.  If some man wearing a roman collar opens a church in your neighborhood and claims to be the Catholic Church, you are responsible for knowing whether his claim is true or not.  Sometimes it will be very easy to know and other times it will be more difficult.  We happen to be living in a time when it is more difficult.  But it was also difficult during the Great Western Schism and we had multiple saints who chose the wrong guy and were still canonized afterwards.  But in the GWS case, at least both claimants actually professed the Catholic faith.  Today, the guy wearing the white cassock is worshipping demons and yet still Catholics are calling him the pope.  I'm not expecting those Catholics to be canonized when the smoke clears.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #187 on: November 11, 2019, 09:16:20 AM »
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  • You do realize that it heresy to say that a council is above a pope, do you not?

    Yeah, I think that the distinction they try to make is "ministerial" deposition ... which I really don't like because I agree that it strongly savors of Conciliarism?  Another way to use the term "depose" would be to say that they legally/materially strip the office.

    But I agree that to avoid confusion, we should not use the word DEPOSE, even if qualified with "ministerially" because that distinction would be lost on most people ... who would think you're endorsing Conciliarism.


    Offline Meg

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #188 on: November 11, 2019, 09:16:43 AM »
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  • You do realize that it heresy to say that a council is above a pope, do you not?

    I was wondering when one of you sedevacantists was going to bring that up.

    Now you will condemn me for being a heretic, right? You sedes are very good at that.

    You must believe that John of St. Thomas was a heretic, too. Would that be right?
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Nishant Xavier

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #189 on: November 11, 2019, 09:54:37 AM »
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  • Another issue that should be mentioned. Both patriarchs Dioscorus and Photius, originators of the Syrian and Greek Orthodox schisms respectively, both wrongly and falsely accused the Roman Pontiffs of heresy. In light of this, the eighth general Council decreed, "Furthermore, nobody else should compose or edit writings or tracts against the most holy pope of old Rome, on the pretext of making incriminating charges, as Photius did recently and Dioscorus a long time ago. Whoever shows such great arrogance and audacity, after the manner of Photius and Dioscorus, and makes false accusations in writing or speech against the see of Peter, the chief of the apostles, let him receive a punishment equal to theirs. If, then, any ruler or secular authority tries to expel the aforesaid pope of the apostolic see, or any of the other patriarchs, let him be anathema. Furthermore, if a universal synod is held and any question or controversy arises about the holy church of Rome, it should make inquiries with proper reverence and respect about the question raised and should find a profitable solution; it must on no account pronounce sentence rashly against the supreme pontiffs of old Rome ... Consequently this holy and universal synod justly and fittingly declares and lays down that no lay person or monk or cleric should separate himself from communion with his own patriarch before a careful enquiry and judgment in synod, even if he alleges that he knows of some crime perpetrated by his patriarch, and he must not refuse to include his patriarch’s name during the divine mysteries or offices." https://www.papalencyclicals.net/councils/ecuм08.htm

    Also, during the 4th century, when the Arian heresy was temporarily at its strongest, there were many Saintly Bishops, e.g. Saints Ambrose, Athanasius, Augustine, Hillary, Basil, Chrysostom, Gregory of Nyssa, Gregory nαzιanzus, among others I'm probably forgetting. It isn't the case that 95 or 99% as some say were formal, public heretics in the episcopacy. There were some who were heretics, and there were others who were confused. The way the Church resolved it later on was to require a formal adherence to defined dogma. Those who did it were Catholic, because they were ready to accept Church teaching. Those who refused to do so were anathema. It never happened that 99% of Bishops lost their offices. And that's a problem for those who insist Bishops can be deposed by presumed pertinacity. After Nicaea I in 325 A.D., and before Constantinople I in 381 A.D., both dogmatic Ecuмenical Councils, what happened was you had some non-infallible synods like those in Ariminum that tried to undermine Nicaea. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Ariminum But these were ultimately rejected in later Ecuмenical Councils.

    The question of public pertinacity is of the utmost importance. The Councils determined pertinacity by the final refusal to profess the dogmatic decrees.

    Quote from: Clemens Maria
    Even Salza and Siscoe admit that no admonition or warning is necessary when a pope definitively severs the external bonds of unity.  So the only disagreement now would be on what constitutes a tacit resignation.
    True, if, hypothetically, the Pope says, "I'm going to leave the Church and become a Muslim", the Cardinals can very well say, "Well, good riddance. We're going to declare the fact, with the Bishops, and then we're going to elect a new Pope". That's clear. But it's a much different scenario if the Pope insists he's Catholic. According to Cardinal Billot, "Those also are occult, who do indeed manifest their heresy by external signs, but not by a public profession. You will easily understand that many men of our times fall into the latter category—those, namely, who either doubt or positively disbelieve matters of faith, and do not disguise the state of their mind in the private affairs of life, but who have never expressly renounced the faith of the Church, and, when they are asked categorically about their religion, declare of their own accord that they are Catholics", those who continue to profess to be Catholics in that way are not yet manifest heretics. So what happens if the Pope is corrected, and after many corrections, he finally retracts? Then, he was not pertinacious, despite his materially heretical opinions, and therefore would not have lost office. That would be like the case of Pope John XII, where Cardinal Fournier, who resisted, became the next Pope and defined the Truth as Dogma. That could happen today.

    Or, public pertinacity of the Pope could be established by the Bishops in future. At that time, the Pope would cease to be Pope, and a new Pope would be elected. But, it can't be established by us, otherwise there is no one to stop anyone deposing any of the Popes of that past on that basis. What if someone tells you he thinks Pope Pius XII was a public heretic? This is not a matter for private judgment. St. Robert, in answering opinion #2, says God does not remove Popes except through men.

    Quote
    Francis was warned publicly by several cardinals
    Right, Maria Regina. But the problem is, none of the Cardinals have explicitly accused him of heresy, much less did they accuse him of public pertinacity, and that is necessary for us laity to conclude that the Church has established him to be manifestly obstinate. Up until then, it remains only an opinion or a presumption that he is pertinacious. The Church doesn't depose the Pope, She can only declare him deposed by God, after sufficiently establishing his public pertinacity. We can have our opinions on whether the Pope is pertinacious in his heresy, but it is up to the Teaching Church i.e. Bishops to confirm them or to reject them. So far, they have not.

    Offline Don Paolo

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #190 on: November 11, 2019, 10:32:54 AM »
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  • THE DOCTRINE OF JOHN OF ST. THOMAS IS HERETICALLY OPPOSED TO THE DOGMA OF THE PRIMACY "[…] This Council can be convened by the authority of the Church which is in the bishops or the greater majority of them; the Church has, by divine law, the right to separate herself from a heretical Pope, and therefore she has all the means necessary for such a separation; now, a necessary means itself (per se) is to be able to legally prove such a crime; but we cannot prove it legally unless if there is a competent judgment, and in such a serious matter, we cannot have a competent judgment except by the General Council, because it is about the universal head of the Church, so much so that it depends on the judgment of the universal Church, that is to say, of the General Council. I do not share the opinion of Fr. Suarez who believes that this can be treated by Provincial Councils; indeed, a Provincial Council does not represent the universal Church in a manner that this case can be treated by such authority; and even several Provincial Councils have no such representation or authority. If this is not about the authority under which one must judge, but about one who has the authority to convene the [General Council], I believe that this is not assigned to a specific person, but it can be done by either the Cardinals who could communicate the news to the bishops, either by the nearest bishops who could tell the others so that all are gathered; or even at the request of princes, not as a summons having coercive force, as when a Pope convenes a Council, but as an "enuntative" convocation that denounces such a crime to the bishops and manifest it in order that they come to bring a remedy. And the Pope cannot annul such a Council or reject it because he is itself part of it (quia ipse est pars) and that the Church has the power, by divine right, to convene the council for this purpose, because she has the right to secede from a heretic." 《This Council can be convened by the authority of the Church which is in the bishops or the greater majority of them》sententia hæretica : The proposition directly opposes the full and absolute power of jurisdiction of the pope over the whole Church. 《 a necessary means itself (per se) is to be able to legally prove such a crime; but we cannot prove it legally unless if there is a competent judgment, [...] we cannot have a competent judgment except by the General Council,》sententia hæretica : The proposition directly opposes the full and absolute power of jurisdiction of the pope over a general council. 《but about one who has the authority to convene the [General Council], I believe that this is not assigned to a specific person, but it can be done by either the Cardinals who could communicate the news to the bishops, either by the nearest bishops who could tell the others so that all are gathered; or even at the request of princes, not as a summons having coercive force, as when a Pope convenes a Council, but as an "enuntative" convocation that denounces such a crime to the bishops and manifest it in order that they come to bring a remedy. And the Pope cannot annul such a Council or reject it because he is itself part of it 》sententia hæretica : The proposition directly opposes the dogma of the "full and supreme power of jurisdiction over the whole Church, [...] dispersed throughout the whole world ... the absolute fullness, of this supreme power; [...] ordinary and immediate both over all and each of the churches and over all and each of the pastors and faithful". [Pastor Æternus] Therefore, John of St. Thomas was correct on one point in this matter, namely, “it does not appear by whom such a deposition is to be made”, since such a deposition can be made by no one: He explicitly teaches that a “general council” can depose a pope, by an “act of judgment” and “jurisdiction”, which directly opposes the doctrine of the Fifth Lateran Council: “t is clearly established that the Roman Pontiff alone, possessing as it were authority over all Councils, has full right and power of proclaiming Councils, or transferring and dissolving them, not only according to the testimony of Sacred Scripture, from the words of the holy Fathers and even of other Roman Pontiffs, of our predecessors, and from the decrees of the holy canons . . .” . It also directly opposes the solemn dogma of the universal primacy of jurisdiction defined by the First Vatican Council : "We teach and declare that, according to the gospel evidence, a primacy of jurisdiction over the whole Church of God was immediately and directly promised to the blessed apostle Peter and conferred on him by Christ the lord. [...] a true and proper primacy of jurisdiction. [...] Therefore, if anyone says that blessed Peter the apostle was not appointed by Christ the Lord as prince of all the apostles and visible head of the whole church militant; or that it was a primacy of honour only and not one of true and proper jurisdiction that he directly and immediately received from our lord Jesus Christ himself: let him be anathema. [...] Therefore whoever succeeds to the chair of Peter obtains by the institution of Christ himself, the primacy of Peter over the whole Church. [...] Therefore, if anyone says that it is not by the institution of Christ the Lord himself (that is to say, by divine law) that blessed Peter should have perpetual successors in the primacy over the whole church; or that the Roman pontiff is not the successor of blessed Peter in this primacy: let him be anathema. [...] Chapter 3. On the power and character of the primacy of the Roman pontiff 1. And so, supported by the clear witness of holy scripture, and adhering to the manifest and explicit decrees both of our predecessors the Roman pontiffs and of general councils, we promulgate anew the definition of the ecuмenical council of Florence [49] , which must be believed by all faithful Christians, namely that the apostolic see and the Roman pontiff hold a world-wide primacy, and that the Roman pontiff is the successor of blessed Peter, the prince of the apostles, true vicar of Christ, head of the whole church and father and teacher of all christian people. To him, in blessed Peter, full power has been given by our Lord Jesus Christ to tend, rule and govern the universal Church. [...] Wherefore we teach and declare that, by divine ordinance, the Roman church possesses a pre-eminence of ordinary power over every other church, and that this jurisdictional power of the Roman pontiff is both episcopal and immediate. Both clergy and faithful, of whatever rite and dignity, both singly and collectively, are bound to submit to this power by the duty of hierarchical subordination and true obedience, and this not only in matters concerning faith and morals, but also in those which regard the discipline and government of the church throughout the world. [...] Since the Roman pontiff, by the divine right of the apostolic primacy, governs the whole church, we likewise teach and declare that he is the supreme judge of the faithful [52] , and that in all cases which fall under ecclesiastical jurisdiction recourse may be had to his judgment [53] . The sentence of the apostolic see (than which there is no higher authority) is not subject to revision by anyone, nor may anyone lawfully pass judgment thereupon [54] . And so they stray from the genuine path of truth who maintain that it is lawful to appeal from the judgments of the Roman pontiffs to an ecuмenical council as if this were an authority superior to the Roman pontif. So, then, if anyone says that the Roman pontiff has ... not the full and supreme power of jurisdiction over the whole Church, and this not only in matters of faith and morals, but also in those which concern the discipline and government of the Church dispersed throughout the whole world; or that he has only the principal part, but not the absolute fullness, of this supreme power; or that this power of his is not ordinary and immediate both over all and each of the churches and over all and each of the pastors and faithful: let him be anathema."  


    Offline Meg

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #191 on: November 11, 2019, 11:04:22 AM »
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  • I, for one, can't take what you say seriously, Fr. Kramer. After all, you have maintained that the theologians were unanimous in saying that the Pope cannot be a heretic. Have you revised your views on that? I have to think that you already knew that the theologians were not unanimous, but you have maintained it anyway. 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Don Paolo

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #192 on: November 11, 2019, 11:12:58 AM »
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  • THE DOCTRINE OF JOHN OF ST. THOMAS IS HERETICALLY OPPOSED TO THE DOGMA OF THE PRIMACY

    "[…] This Council can be convened by the authority of the Church which is in the bishops or the greater majority of them; the Church has, by divine law, the right to separate herself from a heretical Pope, and therefore she has all the means necessary for such a separation; now, a necessary means itself (per se) is to be able to legally prove such a crime; but we cannot prove it legally unless if there is a competent judgment, and in such a serious matter, we cannot have a competent judgment except by the General Council, because it is about the universal head of the Church, so much so that it depends on the judgment of the universal Church, that is to say, of the General Council.

    I do not share the opinion of Fr. Suarez who believes that this can be treated by Provincial Councils; indeed, a Provincial Council does not represent the universal Church in a manner that this case can be treated by such authority; and even several Provincial Councils have no such representation or authority.

    If this is not about the authority under which one must judge, but about one who has the authority to convene the [General Council], I believe that this is not assigned to a specific person, but it can be done by either the Cardinals who could communicate the news to the bishops, either by the nearest bishops who could tell the others so that all are gathered; or even at the request of princes, not as a summons having coercive force, as when a Pope convenes a Council, but as an "enuntative" convocation that denounces such a crime to the bishops and manifest it in order that they come to bring a remedy. And the Pope cannot annul such a Council or reject it because he is itself part of it (quia ipse est pars) and that the Church has the power, by divine right, to convene the council for this purpose, because she has the right to secede from a heretic."

    《This Council can be convened by the authority of the Church which is in the bishops or the greater majority of them》sententia hæretica : The proposition directly opposes the full and absolute power of jurisdiction of the pope over the whole Church.

    《 a necessary means itself (per se) is to be able to legally prove such a crime; but we cannot prove it legally unless if there is a competent judgment, [...] we cannot have a competent judgment except by the General Council,》sententia hæretica : The proposition directly opposes the full and absolute power of jurisdiction of the pope over a general council. 

    《but about one who has the authority to convene the [General Council], I believe that this is not assigned to a specific person, but it can be done by either the Cardinals who could communicate the news to the bishops, either by the nearest bishops who could tell the others so that all are gathered; or even at the request of princes, not as a summons having coercive force, as when a Pope convenes a Council, but as an "enuntative" convocation that denounces such a crime to the bishops and manifest it in order that they come to bring a remedy. And the Pope cannot annul such a Council or reject it because he is itself part of it 》sententia hæretica : The proposition directly opposes the dogma of the "[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]full and supreme power of[/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] [/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]jurisdiction[/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] over the whole Church, [...][/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] dispersed throughout the whole world ... the[/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] [/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]absolute fullness[/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)], of this supreme power; [...][/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] [/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]ordinary and immediate[/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] [/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]both over all and each of the[/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] [/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]churches[/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] [/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]and over all and each of the[/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] [/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]pastors[/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] [/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]and[/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] [/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]faithful". [/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)][Pastor Æternus][/color]

         Therefore, John of St. Thomas was correct on one point in this matter, namely, “it does not appear by whom such a deposition is to be made”, since such a deposition can be made by no one:  He explicitly teaches that a “general council” can depose a pope, by an “act of judgment” and “jurisdiction”, which directly opposes the doctrine of the Fifth Lateran Council: “t is clearly established that the Roman Pontiff alone, possessing as it were authority over all Councils, has full right and power of proclaiming Councils, or transferring and dissolving them, not only according to the testimony of Sacred Scripture, from the words of the holy Fathers and even of other Roman Pontiffs, of our predecessors, and from the decrees of the holy canons . . .” .  It also directly opposes the solemn dogma of the universal primacy of jurisdiction defined by the First Vatican Council  "[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]We [/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]teach and declare [/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]that, [/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]according to the gospel evidence, a primacy of[/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] [/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]jurisdiction[/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] over the whole Church of God was[/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] [/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]immediately and directly [/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]promised[/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] [/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]to the blessed apostle Peter and [/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]conferred[/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] [/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]on him by Christ the Lord. [...] [/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] a true and proper primacy of jurisdiction. [/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)][...] [/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]Therefore, [/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]if anyone says that [/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]blessed Peter the apostle was not appointed by Christ the Lord as prince of all the apostles and visible head of the whole Church militant; or that [/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]it was a primacy of honour only and not one of true and proper jurisdiction that he directly and immediately received from our lord Jesus Christ himself: [/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]let him be anathema[/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)].[/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] [...] [/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]Therefore[/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] whoever succeeds to the chair of Peter obtains by the institution of Christ himself, the primacy of Peter over the whole Church. [...] [/color][/b][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]Therefore, [/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]if anyone says that [/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]it is not by the institution of Christ the Lord himself (that is to say, by divine law) that blessed Peter should have perpetual successors in the primacy over the whole church; or that [/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]the Roman pontiff is not the successor of blessed Peter in this primacy: [/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]let him be[/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] [/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]anathema[/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]. [...] [/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]Chapter 3. On the power and character of the primacy of the Roman pontiff 1. [/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]And so, supported by the clear witness of holy scripture, and adhering to the manifest and explicit decrees both of our predecessors the Roman pontiffs and of general councils, [/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]we promulgate anew the definition of the ecuмenical council of Florence[/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] [49] , which[/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] [/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]must be believed[/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] by all faithful Christians, namely that the apostolic see and the Roman pontiff hold a world-wide primacy, and that the Roman pontiff is the successor of blessed Peter, the prince of the apostles, true vicar of Christ, head of the whole Church and father and teacher of all Christian people. To him, in blessed Peter, full power has been given by our Lord Jesus Christ to tend, rule and govern the universal Church. [...] [/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]Wherefore we [/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]teach and declare[/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] that, [/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]by divine ordinance, the Roman Church possesses a pre-eminence of ordinary power over every other church, and that [/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]this jurisdictional power of the Roman pontiff is both episcopal and immediate. Both clergy and faithful, of whatever rite and dignity, both singly and collectively, are bound to submit to this power by the duty of hierarchical subordination and true obedience, and this not only in matters concerning faith and morals, but also in those which regard the discipline and government of the church throughout the world. [/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)][...] [/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]Since the Roman pontiff, by the divine right of the apostolic primacy, governs the whole church, we likewise [/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]teach and declare[/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] [/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]that [/color][/b][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]he is the supreme judge of the faithful [52] , and that [/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]in all cases which fall under ecclesiastical jurisdiction recourse may be had to his judgment [53] . [/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]The sentence of the apostolic see (than which there is no higher authority) is not subject to revision by anyone, [/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]nor may anyone lawfully pass judgment thereupon [54] . And so [/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]they stray from the genuine path of truth who maintain that it is lawful to appeal from the judgments of the Roman pontiffs to an ecuмenical council as if this were an authority superior to the Roman pontif. So, then, if anyone says that the Roman pontiff has ... not the full and supreme power of[/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] [/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]jurisdiction[/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] over the whole Church, and this not only in matters of [/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]faith and morals[/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)], but also in those which concern the [/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]discipline and government[/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] of the Church dispersed throughout the whole world; or that he has only the principal part, but not the[/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] [/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]absolute fullness[/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)], of this supreme power; or that this power of his is not[/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] [/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]ordinary and immediate[/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] [/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]both over all and each of the[/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] [/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]churches[/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] [/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]and over all and each of the[/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] [/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]pastors[/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] [/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]and[/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] [/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]faithful[/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]: let him be[/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] [/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]anathema[/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]."[/color][/i]

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #193 on: November 11, 2019, 11:16:34 AM »
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  • Fr. Kramer,

    What competent Church authority has judged any of the work of the respected Dominican theologian, John of St. Thomas, as being heretical? 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Don Paolo

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #194 on: November 11, 2019, 11:22:14 AM »
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  • Meg: JOST's doctrine was not declared heretical BEFORE VATICAN I, because it was still considered an open question. The same applies for St. Thomas Aqinas's teaching on the Immaculate Conception. So READ IT AGAIN:

    THE DOCTRINE OF JOHN OF ST. THOMAS IS HERETICALLY OPPOSED TO THE DOGMA OF THE PRIMACY 

     "[…] This Council can be convened by the authority of the Church which is in the bishops or the greater majority of them; the Church has, by divine law, the right to separate herself from a heretical Pope, and therefore she has all the means necessary for such a separation; now, a necessary means itself (per se) is to be able to legally prove such a crime; but we cannot prove it legally unless if there is a competent judgment, and in such a serious matter, we cannot have a competent judgment except by the General Council, because it is about the universal head of the Church, so much so that it depends on the judgment of the universal Church, that is to say, of the General Council. I do not share the opinion of Fr. Suarez who believes that this can be treated by Provincial Councils; indeed, a Provincial Council does not represent the universal Church in a manner that this case can be treated by such authority; and even several Provincial Councils have no such representation or authority. If this is not about the authority under which one must judge, but about one who has the authority to convene the [General Council], I believe that this is not assigned to a specific person, but it can be done by either the Cardinals who could communicate the news to the bishops, either by the nearest bishops who could tell the others so that all are gathered; or even at the request of princes, not as a summons having coercive force, as when a Pope convenes a Council, but as an "enuntative" convocation that denounces such a crime to the bishops and manifest it in order that they come to bring a remedy. And the Pope cannot annul such a Council or reject it because he is itself part of it (quia ipse est pars) and that the Church has the power, by divine right, to convene the council for this purpose, because she has the right to secede from a heretic." 《This Council can be convened by the authority of the Church which is in the bishops or the greater majority of them》sententia hæretica : The proposition directly opposes the full and absolute power of jurisdiction of the pope over the whole Church. 《 a necessary means itself (per se) is to be able to legally prove such a crime; but we cannot prove it legally unless if there is a competent judgment, [...] we cannot have a competent judgment except by the General Council,》sententia hæretica : The proposition directly opposes the full and absolute power of jurisdiction of the pope over a general council. 《but about one who has the authority to convene the [General Council], I believe that this is not assigned to a specific person, but it can be done by either the Cardinals who could communicate the news to the bishops, either by the nearest bishops who could tell the others so that all are gathered; or even at the request of princes, not as a summons having coercive force, as when a Pope convenes a Council, but as an "enuntative" convocation that denounces such a crime to the bishops and manifest it in order that they come to bring a remedy. And the Pope cannot annul such a Council or reject it because he is itself part of it 》sententia hæretica : The proposition directly opposes the dogma of the "full and supreme power of jurisdiction over the whole Church, [...] dispersed throughout the whole world ... the absolute fullness, of this supreme power; [...] ordinary and immediate both over all and each of the churches and over all and each of the pastors and faithful". [Pastor Æternus] Therefore, John of St. Thomas was correct on one point in this matter, namely, “it does not appear by whom such a deposition is to be made”, since such a deposition can be made by no one: He explicitly teaches that a “general council” can depose a pope, by an “act of judgment” and “jurisdiction”, which directly opposes the doctrine of the Fifth Lateran Council: “t is clearly established that the Roman Pontiff alone, possessing as it were authority over all Councils, has full right and power of proclaiming Councils, or transferring and dissolving them, not only according to the testimony of Sacred Scripture, from the words of the holy Fathers and even of other Roman Pontiffs, of our predecessors, and from the decrees of the holy canons . . .” . It also directly opposes the solemn dogma of the universal primacy of jurisdiction defined by the First Vatican Council : "We teach and declare that, according to the gospel evidence, a primacy of jurisdiction over the whole Church of God was immediately and directly promised to the blessed apostle Peter and conferred on him by Christ the lord. [...] a true and proper primacy of jurisdiction. [...] Therefore, if anyone says that blessed Peter the apostle was not appointed by Christ the Lord as prince of all the apostles and visible head of the whole church militant; or that it was a primacy of honour only and not one of true and proper jurisdiction that he directly and immediately received from our lord Jesus Christ himself: let him be anathema. [...] Therefore whoever succeeds to the chair of Peter obtains by the institution of Christ himself, the primacy of Peter over the whole Church. [...] Therefore, if anyone says that it is not by the institution of Christ the Lord himself (that is to say, by divine law) that blessed Peter should have perpetual successors in the primacy over the whole church; or that the Roman pontiff is not the successor of blessed Peter in this primacy: let him be anathema. [...] Chapter 3. On the power and character of the primacy of the Roman pontiff 1. And so, supported by the clear witness of holy scripture, and adhering to the manifest and explicit decrees both of our predecessors the Roman pontiffs and of general councils, we promulgate anew the definition of the ecuмenical council of Florence [49] , which must be believed by all faithful Christians, namely that the apostolic see and the Roman pontiff hold a world-wide primacy, and that the Roman pontiff is the successor of blessed Peter, the prince of the apostles, true vicar of Christ, head of the whole church and father and teacher of all christian people. To him, in blessed Peter, full power has been given by our Lord Jesus Christ to tend, rule and govern the universal Church. [...] Wherefore we teach and declare that, by divine ordinance, the Roman church possesses a pre-eminence of ordinary power over every other church, and that this jurisdictional power of the Roman pontiff is both episcopal and immediate. Both clergy and faithful, of whatever rite and dignity, both singly and collectively, are bound to submit to this power by the duty of hierarchical subordination and true obedience, and this not only in matters concerning faith and morals, but also in those which regard the discipline and government of the church throughout the world. [...] Since the Roman pontiff, by the divine right of the apostolic primacy, governs the whole church, we likewise teach and declare that he is the supreme judge of the faithful [52] , and that in all cases which fall under ecclesiastical jurisdiction recourse may be had to his judgment [53] . The sentence of the apostolic see (than which there is no higher authority) is not subject to revision by anyone, nor may anyone lawfully pass judgment thereupon [54] . And so they stray from the genuine path of truth who maintain that it is lawful to appeal from the judgments of the Roman pontiffs to an ecuмenical council as if this were an authority superior to the Roman pontif. So, then, if anyone says that the Roman pontiff has ... not the full and supreme power of jurisdiction over the whole Church, and this not only in matters of faith and morals, but also in those which concern the discipline and government of the Church dispersed throughout the whole world; or that he has only the principal part, but not the absolute fullness, of this supreme power; or that this power of his is not ordinary and immediate both over all and each of the churches and over all and each of the pastors and faithful: let him be anathema."