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Author Topic: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!  (Read 47049 times)

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Offline Meg

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Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
« Reply #135 on: November 09, 2019, 05:40:51 PM »
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  • John of St. Thomas wrote (here he describes the issue of occult heresy regarding a Pope as well as the two conditions that are needed in order to depose a Pope for heresy):

    Two Conditions

    "But we need to know if the Pope can be deposed in any case of heresy and in whatever form of being a heretic.; or if some additional conditions are needed without which heresy alone is not sufficient to depose the Pontiff.

    I answer that the Pontiff cannot be deposed and lose his pontificate except if two conditions are fulfilled together:

    1) That the heresy is not hidden, but publicly and legally notorious;

    2) then that he must be incorrigible and pertinacious in his heresy.

    If both conditions are fulfilled the Pontiff may be deposed, but not without them; and even if he is not unfaithful interiorly, however if he behaves externally as a heretic, he can be deposed and the sentence of deposition will be valid.

    Concerning the first requirement, among some Catholics are of a different opinion, saying that even for occult heresy [Editor: occult = "hidden," "not visible"], the Pontiff loses his Papal jurisdiction, which is based on the true Faith and right confession of Faith; supporting this opinion we have Torquemada (1,2p. from v. 18 and 1. 2, c. 102) Paludanus, Castro, Simancus, Driedo […]

    Others think that it is necessary that the heresy must be external and proved in the external forum in order that the Pontiff can be deposed of the pontificate; thus Soto (4 sent. D. 22 q.2.2); Cano (from Locis 1.4), who believes that the contrary opinion is not even probable; Catejan (On the pope's power, De Comparatione auctoritatis papae and concilii cuм apologia eiusdem tractatus, Rome, Angelicuм, 1936; c.18 and 19), Suarez, Azorius, Bellarmine (On the Roman Pontiff, c.30).

    The principle is that occult heretics, as long as they are not condemned by the Church and being separated [by her] belong to the Church and are in communion with her, as like being moved from the exterior, even if they do not receive any more interiorly the vital movement; therefore, the Pontiff, if he is an occult heretic, is not separated from the Church; therefore, he can still be the head, since he is still a part and a member, even if he is not a living one.

    A confirmation of it is that priests of a lower order can exercise the power of order and jurisdiction without Faith because a heretical priest can confer the sacraments in cases of extreme need […]

    The second condition, in order to be able to depose the Pope, namely that he is guilty of incorrigible and pertinacious heresy, is evident, because if someone is ready to be corrected and is not pertinacious in heresy, is not considered to be heretical (Decree of Gratian, No. 24. 3. 29 "Dixit Apostolus"); therefore, if the Pope is ready to be corrected, he should not be deposed as a heretic.

    The Apostle [Paul] prescribes to avoid heretics only after a first and second correction: if he comes to repentance after the correction, he should not be avoided; therefore, as the Pope must be deposed for heresy under this apostolic precept, it follows that if he can be corrected, he should not be deposed."

    http://www.dominicansavrille.us/on-the-deposition-of-the-pope-part-1-of-2/

    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Kelley

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #136 on: November 09, 2019, 08:08:28 PM »
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  • Hello Father,

    It's common knowledge that you attended Holy Apostles Seminary in Cromwell, CT. Could you please enlighten us as to your ordination details?

    Were you ordained in the new or traditional rite? If traditional, was your ordaining bishop consecrated in the new or traditional rite? And finally, if your ordination was in the new rite and/or the ordaining bishop was consecrated in the new rite, did you receive or are you considering ordination sub conditione by a traditional bishop in the traditional rite?
    Father Paul Kramer is an Irish-American native of Bristol, Connecticut, USA, who studied philosophy and theology in Rome at the Pontifical University of St. Thomas Aquinas during the 1970s, and was ordained to the priesthood on April, 20, 1980 by Bishop Vittorio M. Costantini O.F.M. Conv. in the Cathedral of Sessa Aurunca (CA) Italy. Fr. Kramer served in parish ministry in Germany, Philippines, USA, and has carried out various missions in other countries, including Canada, Italy, Brazil, India, Ireland, Portugal, Spain, and England. Fr. Kramer is currently retired, and is living in Ireland. Fr. Kramer was a close collaborator with the world famous “Fatima Priest”, Fr. Nicholas Gruner from 1986 until the latter’s untimely death in April 2015; at whose request this book has been written, and to whose memory it is dedicated. - Source

    Thank you for providing that biography, Stubborn. This is the narration which can be also found on the new book's jacket cover. However, it still lacks answers to specific questions.

    Father, although it does provide information about your ordaining bishop, +Vittorio Constantini, who in 1962 was consecrated in the traditional rite, we're still uncertain about the details of your ordination. Was it in the new rite or the traditional rite? Having been ordained in a Diocesan Cathedral in 1980, it may be safe to assume that it was in the new rite; was this the case, Father? And if yes, have your ever received a traditional rite ordination sub conditione by a traditional bishop?

    Thank you, Father, we would be very grateful if you-yourself could answer these questions from the faithful.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #137 on: November 09, 2019, 08:17:46 PM »
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    Offline Praeter

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #138 on: November 10, 2019, 12:48:43 AM »
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  • Hello Father,

    It's common knowledge that you attended Holy Apostles Seminary in Cromwell, CT. Could you please enlighten us as to your ordination details?

    Father Kramer's bio in The ѕυιcιdє of Altering the Faith, says "M.Div., Holy Apostles College, Cromwell, Connecticut, U.S.A., 1987-1988."

    Holy Apostles College lists their graduates on their website by year and Fr. Kramer's name is not there.      

    Offline Don Paolo

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #139 on: November 10, 2019, 05:01:02 AM »
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  • Fr. Kramer's name is on the diploma issued by Holy Apostles College and Seminary on 1 August 1988; signed by Fr. Francis Lescoe (President and Rector, Fr. Bradley Pierce (Secretary, Board of Directors), Sr. Mary Reagan (Academic Dean), and Bro. Daniel Karempelis (Registrar). A photo of the diploma will appear presently on my facebook page.


    Offline Don Paolo

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #140 on: November 10, 2019, 05:33:27 AM »
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  • "PaxChristi2" has quoted Innocent III entirely out of context in order to invert Pope Innocent's meaning. Innocent explicitly and categorically taught that for so long as a pope is reigning, no one on earth may judge him -- if the pope were to "wither away into heresy"; then he could be "shown to be already judged" , i.e., proven to have already fallen from office, following the doctrine of his mentor, Huguccio of Pisa. I have devoted an entire section of my book to the doctrine of Innocent III on this point. One cannot determine his meaning by quoting little snippets out of context as "PaxChristi2" has done.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #141 on: November 10, 2019, 10:01:45 AM »
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  • Salza and Sicoe's entire mis-interpretation of Bellarmine rests on arbitrarily restricting Bellarmine's reference to defecting from the Church on his own to someone who formally apostasizes.

    This is rejected by the Canon Lawyers who have commented on the related canons.

    https://stevensperay.wordpress.com/2016/03/17/canon-188-4-and-defection-of-faith-why-john-salza-and-robert-siscoe-get-it-wrong-part-iii/

    All the Canonists agree that both apostasy AND heresy constitute a defection from faith (in the context of the canon under discussion) ... whether there being some dispute among the canonists whether schism that does not involve heresy counts as defection from the faith.

    And the Canonists also agree that the resignation from office is not "in the nature of a penalty".

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #142 on: November 10, 2019, 10:24:50 AM »
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  • Salza and Sicoe's entire mis-interpretation of Bellarmine rests on arbitrarily restricting Bellarmine's reference to defecting from the Church on his own to someone who formally apostasizes.

    This is rejected by the Canon Lawyers who have commented on the related canons.

    https://stevensperay.wordpress.com/2016/03/17/canon-188-4-and-defection-of-faith-why-john-salza-and-robert-siscoe-get-it-wrong-part-iii/

    All the Canonists agree that both apostasy AND heresy constitute a defection from faith (in the context of the canon under discussion) ... whether there being some dispute among the canonists whether schism that does not involve heresy counts as defection from the faith.

    And the Canonists also agree that the resignation from office is not "in the nature of a penalty".
    Excellent!
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?


    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #143 on: November 10, 2019, 10:34:08 AM »
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  • I think that the confusion is this ...

    MAJOR:  Legitimate Pope cannot become a heretic.
    MINOR:  Bergoglio is a heretic.
    CONCLUSION:  Therefore, Bergoglio was never a legitimate pope.
    I would add:
    MAJOR: A heretic (non Catholic) cannot validly be elected pope
    MINOR:  Bergoglio was a heretic before his “election”.
    CONCLUSION:  Therefore, Bergoglio was never a legitimate pope.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #144 on: November 10, 2019, 10:38:33 AM »
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  • On the Deposition of the Pope

    Here, the Dominican theologian John of St. Thomas writes that it is a General Council that should pronounce the declarative sentence of the crime of heresy of a Pope. He also gives examples of Popes who had to defend themselves against charges made against them, in a Council, which appears from the practice of the Church. 

    John of St. Thomas writes:

    "It remains to deal with the second problem: by what authority should the deposition of the Pope be done? And the who issue revolves around two points: 

    1) The declarative sentence by which the Pope's crime is declared: should it be made by the Cardinals or by the General Council? And if it is by the General Council, by what authority should it be assembled, and on what basis should this Council judge the case? 

    2) The deposition itself which must follow the declarative sentence of the crime: it is made by the power of the Church, or immediately by Christ, being supposed made the declaration?

    1. Who should pronounce the declarative sentence of the crime of heresy? 

    The declarative sentence should not be made by the cardinals.

    On this first point, we must say that the statement of the crime does not come from the Cardinals, but from the General Council. 

    It appears from the practice of the Church. Indeed, in the case of Marcellinus (Pope from 296-304) about the incense offered to idols, a synod was convened, as stated in the Decree of Gratian (Distinction 21, chapter 7, "Nunc autem"). And in the case of the Great (Western) Schism during which there were three Popes, the Council of Constance was assembled to settle the Schism, Likewise in the case of Pope Symmachus (Pope from 498-514), a Council was convened in Rome to treat the case against him, as reported in Antoine Augustin in his Epitome juris pontificii veteris (Title 13, chapter 14. See also Catholic Encyclopedia, Pope St. Symmachus); and the places in Canon Law quoted above, show that the Pontiffs who wanted to defend themselves against the crimes imputed to them, have done it before a Council.

    Then we see that the power to treat the cause of the Pontiff, and what concerns his deposition, was not entrusted to the Cardinals. In the case of deposition, this belongs to the Church, whose authority is represented by a General Council; indeed, to the Cardinal is only entrusted the election, and nothing else, as can be seen in Canon Law [John of St. Thomas refers to what he said earlier in his works]: see Torquemada (Summa, 1.2, c. 93) Catejan (De Comparatione auctori tatis Papae) and the Canonists (on the Decretal of Boniface Vlll (in 6th), chap. "In fideide haereticis" and the Decree of Gratian, Dist. 40).

    http://www.dominicansavrille.us/on-the-deposition-of-the-pope-part-1-of-2/
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #145 on: November 10, 2019, 10:46:34 AM »
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  • On the Deposition of the Pope


    Please stop spamming that article into this thread piece by piece.  It's obnoxious forum behavior.  Anyone could find an article representing their point of view and spam it in.  I could easily take the contents of that link I posted just above and spam the entire thing in here also.


    Offline Meg

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #146 on: November 10, 2019, 10:52:37 AM »
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  • Please stop spamming that article into this thread piece by piece.  It's obnoxious forum behavior.  Anyone could find an article representing their point of view and spam it in.  I could easily take the contents of that link I posted just above and spam the entire thing in here also.

    So....it's getting to you that your beloved opinions are being refuted here. Well, that's how forums work, Ladislaus.
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #147 on: November 10, 2019, 11:12:32 AM »
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  • Quote
    All the Canonists agree that both apostasy AND heresy constitute a defection from faith (in the context of the canon under discussion) 
    Of course, Ladislaus.  But what's under dispute is WHEN is one guilty of heresy?  PaxChristi2's research argues that this does not apply until the Church rules on the matter.  I agree.  Once the Church discerns heresy, THEN that person has defected from the faith (or, it can be said that it is established as fact that they defected).
    .
    The way you explained it above is too general.  It glosses over a few steps which must take place first.  It's a summary with no detailed process.  

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #148 on: November 10, 2019, 12:34:01 PM »
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  • Of course, Ladislaus.  But what's under dispute is WHEN is one guilty of heresy?  PaxChristi2's research argues that this does not apply until the Church rules on the matter.  I agree.  Once the Church discerns heresy, THEN that person has defected from the faith (or, it can be said that it is established as fact that they defected).
    .
    The way you explained it above is too general.  It glosses over a few steps which must take place first.  It's a summary with no detailed process.  

    PaxChristi2 is clearly either Salza or Siscoe.

    In any case, he adduced the quote from Bellarmine as proof for the fact that a heretic must be judged by the Church before losing office.  But Bellarmine gave two scenarios, one which required no such judgment.  S&S got around this by gratuitously claiming that only formal apostasy falls into the first category.  So this completely debunks their "research" from Bellarmine.

    As for the overall research, there's clear indication (Pope St. Clement, Pope Innocent III, Billot, etc.) that episcopal jurisdiction is lost from the moment that the heretic goes public, and not mere from the time he's judged a heretic by the Church.

    What reconciles these statements is the formal-material distinction (which PC2 dismissed with the waive of his hand as a "post-Vatican-II novelty").  This distinction while not explicitly applied by commentators certainly fits with (and reconciles) the different points of view.  In other words, there's "research" that backs both points of view, except that these can be reconciled by the material-formal distinction.

    As soon as a Pope were to become a public heretic, he would lose authority, but not the material possession of the office, with the latter being lost only by a judgment of the Church.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #149 on: November 10, 2019, 12:37:00 PM »
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  • So....it's getting to you that your beloved opinions are being refuted here. Well, that's how forums work, Ladislaus.

    No, that is not how forums work.  They are intended for discussion and argument, not spamming in entire articles, piece by piece, peppering them in without any regard for whether or not they are pertinent to the current state of the thread.