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Author Topic: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!  (Read 44141 times)

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Offline 2Vermont

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Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
« Reply #525 on: November 16, 2019, 08:12:12 AM »
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  • Here's the bottom line ... thanks to the article linked to by Decem.

    We can argue until the cows come home about what Bellarmine meant ... and it doesn't really matter, since this question has not been definitively settled by the Church.

    Even St. Robert's opinion regarding the requirements for membership in the Church have not been authoritatively settled.  There's another school of thought, which, although it has become less common these days, which holds, among other things, that occult heretics are not fully members of the Church.  I think that the position has a lot of merit.  And there are a tremendous number of permutations regarding these views.

    So, in other words, of someone wanted to hold even that occult heretics would lose the papal office, there's nothing to stop them.

    So we're wasting our time debating this issue.

    Any theory must abide by things that the Church HAS settled, such as that Councils cannot formally depose popes (Lateran V), and that the Holy See is judged by no one, and that the Pope has supreme absolute authority in the Church (Vatican I).  Any theory that does not contradict these principles can be held by a Catholic.  What we're arguing about is whether some distinction or another is legitimate so that some theory which APPEARS to contradict one of these principles really doesn't.
    Except St Robert Bellarmine's teaching was used at Vatican I.  It can not be simply dismissed as just another opinion.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #526 on: November 16, 2019, 08:14:54 AM »
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  • Was Fr Lawlor even ordained in the Old Rite in 1969?  I prefer to refer to pre-Vatican II theologians in these matters.

    Well, the article in which Msgr. Fenton was discussing Father Lawlor was written in 1950 ... so I would assume so.

    According to Msgr. Fenton, there still exists a division between the two major schools, St. Robert and Sylvius, although the former is "more common".


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #527 on: November 16, 2019, 08:16:43 AM »
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  • Except St Robert Bellarmine's teaching was used at Vatican I.  It can not be simply dismissed as just another opinion.

    SOME of it was, 2Vermont, not all.  Just because some of his thinking as adopted doesn't mean that all of it was.  I think there's a quote from one of the Vatican I fathers to the effect that the heretical pope issue was not being definitively settled.  So, for instance, just because some pieces of St. Robert were adopted by the Church, this does not mean the Church endorsed his theory that even a fake Catholic was a member of the Church.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #528 on: November 16, 2019, 08:23:24 AM »
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  • There are many bonds which unite someone to the Church ..

    1) Baptismal character
    2) external profession of faith
    3) internal supernatural faith
    4) internal supernatural charity

    I don't know of any theologian who says that #4 is required for membership.  Pius XII clearly taught that grave sins (other than heresy and apostasy and schism) do NOT of their nature separate from the Church, so it's clear Catholic teaching that #4 is not required.

    Of this rest, the Sylvius school holds that #3 is in fact required, whereas the Bellarmine school holds that it is not.  Father Lawlor sounds to have been basically promoting the Sylvius school based on his reading of Pius XII.

    Pius XII also taught that baptism was required for membership ... which is what Msgr. Fenton commented on as ruling out St. Robert's fake Catholic theory.

    Interestingly, Msgr. Fenton never discussed the famous "sin of heresy" passage we've been discussing here, but I would guess that Father Lawlor used that to back the requirement for true supernatural faith and not just the external appearances thereof.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #529 on: November 16, 2019, 08:24:54 AM »
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  • Well, the article in which Msgr. Fenton was discussing Father Lawlor was written in 1950 ... so I would assume so.

    According to Msgr. Fenton, there still exists a division between the two major schools, St. Robert and Sylvius, although the former is "more common".
    My apologies...I think I found the wrong Fr Lawlor on the internet.  For me, occult heretics do not affect the unity of the Church...which is what I believe is the main driving force for St Robert Bellarmine's teaching on manifest heretic popes.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #530 on: November 16, 2019, 08:29:08 AM »
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  • This is a very complicated issue, not settled yet by the Church, and this 37 pages of argument will lead us to no definitive conclusion.

    I feel that we're wasting too much time on arguing about it.

    What the REAL issue here is whether the Catholic Magisterium and Universal Discipline of the Church can become THIS corrupt.  R&R says yes, whereas the sedevacantists/privationists say no.  That's the REAL discussion here.  If the Magisterium and Universal Discipline had remained intact, then the heretical ramblings of one Jorge Bergoglio would not matter very much to the average Catholic.

    You can find theologians on all sides of the heretical pope issue.  But I defy anyone to find a pre-Vatican II theologian who would say that it is not heretical to hold that an Ecuмenical Council could teach grave error to the Church, leading souls to hell, and that the Church could approve of and promulgate a Mass that's harmful to souls and displeasing to God.  THAT is the real issue here.  This heretical pope issue is a distraction.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #531 on: November 16, 2019, 08:31:24 AM »
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  • Ladislaus,

    Father Lawlor's article is attached.
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #532 on: November 16, 2019, 08:33:21 AM »
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  • This is a very complicated issue, not settled yet by the Church, and this 37 pages of argument will lead us to no definitive conclusion.

    I feel that we're wasting too much time on arguing about it.

    What the REAL issue here is whether the Catholic Magisterium and Universal Discipline of the Church can become THIS corrupt.  R&R says yes, whereas the sedevacantists/privationists say no.  That's the REAL discussion here.  If the Magisterium and Universal Discipline had remained intact, then the heretical ramblings of one Jorge Bergoglio would not matter very much to the average Catholic.

    You can find theologians on all sides of the heretical pope issue.  But I defy anyone to find a pre-Vatican II theologian who would say that it is not heretical to hold that an Ecuмenical Council could teach grave error to the Church, leading souls to hell, and that the Church could approve of and promulgate a Mass that's harmful to souls and displeasing to God.  THAT is the real issue here.  This heretical pope issue is a distraction.
    Generally speaking we spend too much time arguing about a lot.  ;D  Having said that, you have a point here....perhaps start another thread with the above post?  

    I admit that there are MANY posts in this thread that I just didn't read.  It would be helpful if posters (I'm looking at you "Don Paolo") used paragraphs and the quote function when writing.  Walls of text are not inviting to the (average) reader at all. 


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #533 on: November 16, 2019, 08:34:37 AM »
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  • My apologies...I think I found the wrong Fr Lawlor on the internet.  For me, occult heretics do not affect the unity of the Church...which is what I believe is the main driving force for St Robert Bellarmine's teaching on manifest heretic popes.

    Right, except this opinion is not definitively settled by the Church.  I think that there's some merit to the Sylvius position that occult heretics are member of the Church not simpliciter but only secundum quid.  Now, how this would apply to the heretical pope issue is another question altogether.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #534 on: November 16, 2019, 08:35:20 AM »
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  • Ladislaus,

    Father Lawlor's article is attached.

    Thank you very much.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #535 on: November 16, 2019, 08:45:01 AM »
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  • This is a very complicated issue, not settled yet by the Church, and this 37 pages of argument will lead us to no definitive conclusion.

    I feel that we're wasting too much time on arguing about it.

    What the REAL issue here is whether the Catholic Magisterium and Universal Discipline of the Church can become THIS corrupt.  R&R says yes, whereas the sedevacantists/privationists say no.  That's the REAL discussion here.  If the Magisterium and Universal Discipline had remained intact, then the heretical ramblings of one Jorge Bergoglio would not matter very much to the average Catholic.

    You can find theologians on all sides of the heretical pope issue.  But I defy anyone to find a pre-Vatican II theologian who would say that it is not heretical to hold that an Ecuмenical Council could teach grave error to the Church, leading souls to hell, and that the Church could approve of and promulgate a Mass that's harmful to souls and displeasing to God.  THAT is the real issue here.  This heretical pope issue is a distraction.
    I agree with this mainly. Areas of disagreement would sidetrack the discussion and just be of minor contentions attached to the general principles (which I agree with) -  maybe another thread.

    The main issue is what appears to be the Magisterium (by outward signs, apparent proper mode of election/selection, etc.) - again pointing out the significance lurking behind the occult heretic issue with its outer/interior bond focus -  teaching errors regarding the faith, errors that may or may not contaminate the core beliefs of our faith, and show a radical problem with Catholic claims to be truth itself by indicating a logical contradiction, which I and all of us here assert is impossible (since the Catholic faith is God's truth and the way of salvation).

    This problem is why we are all here and why we argue about these things. It is of no small importance.  
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #536 on: November 16, 2019, 08:45:34 AM »
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  • Ladislaus,

    Father Lawlor's article is attached.

    I'm just beginning to read this; it is excellent.  I have not yet gotten to his conclusion, but he makes some great points regarding the state of the question.

    Here's an interesting corollary to Bellarmine's purely-visible concept of the Church, one that has always troubled me.  St. Robert declares that excommunicates are outside the Church.  But what about those unjustly excommunicated?  Although visibly separated from the body of the Church, they are in fact still part of the Church because the excommunication was unjust.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #537 on: November 16, 2019, 08:46:46 AM »
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  • I'm just beginning to read this; it is excellent.  I have not yet gotten to his conclusion, but he makes some great points regarding the state of the question.

    Here's an interesting corollary to Bellarmine's purely-visible concept of the Church, one that has always troubled me.  St. Robert declares that excommunicates are outside the Church.  But what about those unjustly excommunicated?  Although visibly separated from the body of the Church, they are in fact still part of the Church because the excommunication was unjust.
    I look forward to your thoughts. I found it very powerful and reasonable. I will have to read it again myself.
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #538 on: November 16, 2019, 08:52:15 AM »
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  • I agree with this mainly. Areas of disagreement would sidetrack the discussion and just be of minor contentions attached to the general principles (which I agree with) -  maybe another thread.

    The main issue is what appears to be the Magisterium (by outward signs, apparent proper mode of election/selection, etc.) - again pointing out the significance lurking behind the occult heretic issue with its outer/interior bond focus -  teaching errors regarding the faith, errors that may or may not contaminate the core beliefs of our faith, and show a radical problem with Catholic claims to be truth itself by indicating a logical contradiction, which I and all of us here assert is impossible (since the Catholic faith is God's truth and the way of salvation).

    This problem is why we are all here and why we argue about these things. It is of no small importance.  
    Actually it's not a "minor" contention: I do not hold the Novus Ordo Missae "a Mass that's harmful to souls and displeasing to God." And yet I would agree with Sedes as to the V2 popes because of their doctrinal teachings. But as to the principles expressed (apart from that conclusion or application) I am in absolute agreement. 

    As I said . . . another thread.
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Croixalist

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #539 on: November 16, 2019, 08:55:48 AM »
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  • Q. Stubborn asks: "Specifically, what member or members of said Church are supposed to make this an official declaration?"

    A. How many times do you expect me to repeat myself? Go back and read my earlier comments. I have already answered this question.

    Answer it in one sentence, no walls of text. Be succinct and to the point without being obnoxious or insulting.
    Fortuna finem habet.