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Author Topic: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!  (Read 43558 times)

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Offline Don Paolo

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Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
« Reply #480 on: November 15, 2019, 10:34:57 AM »
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  • Pax Vobis says: "In other words, the part of cuм Ex where it says that a heretic can't be elected pope, is abrogated."

    It cannot be abrogated because that provision pertains to divine law. The decree states that even if the heretic-elect receives obedience from all, his election is null and void. Universal acceptance effects sanatio in radice even for an invalid election; so if a heretic has been elected and universally accepted, he would be a valid pope, and no human law would have the power to nullify his election; unless that provision is founded on divine law.

    Offline PaxChristi2

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #481 on: November 15, 2019, 10:39:53 AM »
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  • PaxChristi2 says: 《The word Bellarmine usually uses is "convicted," or "legitimately judged."

    Bellarmine only uses the words "convicted" or "legitimately judged" in reference to opinion no. 2, i.e. an occult heretic's loss of office.

    He used convicted and legitimately judged for a heretical Pope who had not openly separated himself from the Church. Here’s how Bellarmine said the process would take place if a Pope were accused of infidelity:


    Quote
    Bellarmine: “Marcellinus was accused of an act of infidelity, in which case a Council can discuss the case of the Pope, and if they were to discover that he really was an infidel [discretionary judgment], the Council can declare him outside the Church and thus condemn him.” (On Councils).

    Listen to Bellarmine's commentary on the case of Liberius:

    Quote
    Bellarmine: “Then two years later came the lapse of Liberius, of which we have spoken above. Then indeed the Roman clergy, stripping Liberius of his pontifical dignity (abrogata Liberio Pontificia dignitate), went over to Felix, whom they knew to be a Catholic. From that time, Felix began to be the true Pontiff. For although Liberius was not a heretic, nevertheless he was considered one, on account of the peace he made with the Arians, and by that presumption the pontificate could rightly be taken from him. for men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple, and condemn him as a heretic.” (De Romano Pontifice, bk IV)

    Even though Bellarmine did not believe Liberius was a heretic, he says the clergy of Rome could strip him of his pontifical dignity, since they judged him to be a heretic.  There was no ipso facto loss of office for heresy before they judged him.   It is certain that Bellarmine didn’t believe there was, since he explicitly stated that he did not believe Marcellinus’ lost his office when he committed the public act of apostasy by offering incense to the idols, and he also said Marcellinus’ sin against the faith was worse than that of Liberius.  “Liberius neither taught heresy, nor was a heretic, but only sinned by external act, as did St. Marcellinus, and unless I am mistaken, sinned less than St. Marcellinus" (Bellarmine).  If he did not believe Marcellinus lost his office (without human judgment) for his sin against the faith, he obviously did not believe Liberius lost his without human judgment for a lesser sin.


    In De Concilii, Bellarmine says the bishops can “deposed” a Pope (“abrogate his pontificate,” as he said about Liberius), if they can convict him of heresy:  


    Quote
    Bellarmine: “… the oath [of fidelity] does not take away the freedom of the Bishops, which is necessary in Councils: for they promise to be obedient to the supreme Pontiff, which is understood as long as he is Pope, and provided he commands those things which, according to God and the sacred canons, he can command; but they do not swear that they are not going to say what they think in the Council, or that they are not going to depose him, if they were to clearly prove (convincant) that he is a heretic. (…) inferiors ought not be free from the obedience owed to their superiors, unless first he were legitimately deposed (legitimate deponatur) or declared not to be a superior (vel declaretur non esse superior) ... (De Concilli).

    In the same chapter, he says a Pope retains the right to call a council and preside over it until he has been legitimately judged and convicted, and hence is no longer the Pope:


    Quote
    Bellarmine: “the Roman Pontiff cannot be deprived of the right to summon a Council, and preside over it – a right he has possessed for 1500 years – unless he were first legitimately judged and convicted [discretionary judgment], and is not the Supreme Pontiff.  (…) the Pope is not the only judged in a Council, but has many colleagues, that is, all the Bishops who, if they could convict him of heresy [discretionary judgment], could judge and depose him [coercive judgment] against his will.” (De Concilii).

    Here’s what Bellarmine said in response to a Sedevacantist Protestant of his day, who said the Catholic bishop defected from the faith, lost their office, and could be replaced:

    Quote
    Bellarmine: “I respond to this argument of Brenz (…): Catholic bishops, who for centuries have possessed their sees peacefully, cannot be deprived unless they are legitimately judged and condemned; for in every controversy, the condition of the one possessing is better.  Moreover, it is certain that the Catholic bishops were not condemned by any legitimate judgment; for who condemned them apart from the Lutherans? But they are accusers, not judges. Who made them our judges? (Bellarmine, On the Marks of the Church, cap. vii)

    Must be legitimately judged, and that includes the Pope.

    In his book On Clerics, he says the faithful are not to listen to heretical bishops, but they cannot depose them, which is no different than “declaring” them deposed based on private judgment:

    Quote
    Bellarmine: “Moreover, it should be observed that, on the one hand, the people, by the rule which we have laid down, can indeed discern a true prophet from a false one; but, on the other hand, they cannot, for all that, depose the false prophet, if he be a bishop, and substitute another in his place.  For the Lord and the Apostle command only that the people not hear false prophets, and not that they depose them [or declare them deposed].  And certainly the practice of the Church has always been thus, that heretical bishops be deposed by bishops’ councils or by the supreme pontiffs. (On Clerics, bk.1, ch.7).

    Obviously, Bellarmine is referring to heretical bishops who were teaching heresy, since if their heresy remained entirely hidden there would be no need to avoid listening to them.

    What it boils down to is this: If a heretical bishop or Pope remains in possession of his see, he has to be “legitimately judged” and “convicted” before he will lose his office, even if he is judged to be a “manifest heretic” beforehand by private judgment.  

    I would also note that when there is a doubt of fact or law, the Church supplies jurisdiction for the governance of the Church in both the internal and external forums:


    Quote
    Doubts of fact or law:
     
    Can. 143 §1. Ordinary power ceases by loss of the office to which it is connected.

    §2. Unless the law provides otherwise, ordinary power is suspended if, legitimately, an appeal is made or a recourse is lodged against privation of or removal from office.

    Can. 144 §1. In factual or legal common error and in positive and probable doubt of law or of fact, the Church supplies executive power of governance for both the external and internal forum.

    Here’s what Woywood said about the “Popes” during the time of the Great Western Schism:


    Quote
    “Yet is must be maintained according to Catholic teaching and Church history (see any standard Catholic Apologetics text book) that although there was during this period of confusion, two or even three claimants to the papacy, yet in actual fact there was only one Legitimate Pope, the others being antipopes. In such cases of common error, no matter how they are created, the Church supplies the jurisdiction for the benefit of the people (Canon 209. Practical Commentary of the Code, Law. Woywod. Vol. 1. p. 80.)

    Other theologians have said that if all the Popes during the Great Western Schism were false Popes, Christ Himself would have supplied the jurisdiction (since the Church cannot supply papal jurisdiction if there is no true Pope).

    Along the same lines, Bellarmine’s fellow Jesuit, the renowned canonist Fr. Paul Laymann, teaches that even the Pope is notoriously heretical, as long as he is publicly recognized as Pope by the Church, he will retain his jurisdiction:


    Quote
    Fr. Laymann, S.J.: “It is more probable that the Supreme Pontiff, as concerns his own person, could fall into heresy, even a notorious one, by reason of which he would deserve to be deposed by the Church, or rather declared to be separated from her. … The proof of this assertion is that neither Sacred Scripture nor the tradition of the Fathers indicates that such a privilege [i.e., being preserved from heresy when not defining a doctrine] was granted by Christ to the Supreme Pontiff: therefore the privilege is not to be asserted.

    The first part of the proof is shown from the fact that the promises made by Christ to St. Peter cannot be transferred to the other Supreme Pontiffs insofar as they are private persons, but only as the successor of Peter in the pastoral power of teaching, etc. The latter part is proven from the fact that it is rather the contrary that one finds in the writings of the Fathers and in decrees: not indeed as if the Roman Pontiffs were at any time heretics de facto (for one could hardly show that); but it was the persuasion that it could happen that they fall into heresy and that, therefore, if such a thing should seem to have happened, it would pertain to the other bishops to examine and give a judgment on the matter; as one can see in the Sixth Synod, Act 13; the Seventh Synod, last Act; the eight Synod, Act 7 in the epistle of [Pope] Hadrian; and in the fifth Roman Council under Pope Symmachus: ‘By many of those who came before us it was declared and ratified in Synod, that the sheep should not reprehend their Pastor, unless they presume that he has departed from the Faith’. And in Si Papa d. 40, it is reported from Archbishop Boniface: ‘He who is to judge all men is to be judged by none, unless he be found by chance to be deviating from the Faith’. And Bellarmine himself, book 2, ch. 30, writes: ‘We cannot deny that [Pope] Hadrian with the Roman Council, and the entire 8th General Synod was of the belief that, in the case of heresy, the Roman Pontiff could be judged,’ as one can see in Melchior Cano, bk. 6, De Locis Theologicis, last chapter.

    But note that, although we affirm that the Supreme Pontiff, as a private person, might become a heretic … nevertheless, for as long as he is tolerated by the Church, and is publicly recognized as the universal pastor, he is still endowed, in fact, with the pontifical power, in such a way that all his decrees have no less force and authority than they would if he were a truly faithful, as Dominic Barnes notes well (q.1, a. 10, doubt 2, ad. 3) Suarez bk 4, on laws, ch. 7.  The reason is: because it is conducive to the governing of the Church, even as, in any other well-constituted commonwealth, that the acts of a public magistrate are in force as long as he remains in office and is publicly tolerated.” (Laymann, Theol. Mor., bk. 2, tract 1, ch. 7, p. 153).



    Offline PaxChristi2

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #482 on: November 15, 2019, 10:43:20 AM »
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  • Pax Vobis says: "In other words, the part of cuм Ex where it says that a heretic can't be elected pope, is abrogated."

    It cannot be abrogated because that provision pertains to divine law. The decree states that even if the heretic-elect receives obedience from all, his election is null and void. Universal acceptance effects sanatio in radice even for an invalid election; so if a heretic has been elected and universally accepted, he would be a valid pope, and no human law would have the power to nullify his election; unless that provision is founded on divine law.

    Divine Law does not teach that a secret heretic is unable to be elected to office in the Church.   Here's what a real theologian and canonist, Fr. Gregory Hesse, said about cuм ex Apostolatus. 
     
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4lcuм8xetc


    Offline Meg

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #483 on: November 15, 2019, 10:51:28 AM »
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  • Fr. Chazal describes the problem of Paul lV' cuм Ex. Here's one paragraph from it. I'll post more from it later today.

    Fr. Chazal writes, on page 49 of his book, "Contra Cekadam":

    "cuм Ex has NOT been retained, over the course of the jurisprudence of the Church, because its content poses a problem, especially the statement that a secret heretic ceases to be the Pope, nor can become a Pope....However, not being able to be removed by men, because nobody knows the state of his mind, the Papacy should cease, like some sedes argue now (leading them to the heresy of Ecclesiovacantism), Paul lV wanted to prevent infiltrators, a most difficult thing indeed, when it is to the avowed strategy of the enemy. Note with Cardinal Hergenrother that cuм Ex contains penal sanction directed at a Pope....much against your own theory (addressing Fr. Cekada), that the Pope is not under any law but Divine Law. Indeed, some aspects of 
    cuм Ex can be directed against sedevacantists."
    --------

    Why would penal sanction, as Father says above, be directed at a (supposedly heretical Pope), if he were never Pope in the first place? 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #484 on: November 15, 2019, 11:30:30 AM »
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  • Stubborn: 1) Any good theological dictionary will tell you what the Church is, to which I refer. 2) There never has been an illegitimate pope -- only illegitimate claimants. Paul IV declares in cuм Ex Apostolatus Officio:

    “if ever at any time it shall appear that […]the Roman Pontiff, prior to his promotion or his elevation as Cardinal or Roman Pontiff, has deviated from the Catholic Faith or fallen into some heresy: (i) the promotion or elevation, even if it shall have been uncontested and by the unanimous assent of all the Cardinals, shall be null, void and worthless; (ii) it shall not be possible for it to acquire validity (nor for it to be said that it has thus acquired validity) through the acceptance of the office, of consecration, of subsequent authority, nor through possession of administration, nor through the putative enthronement of a Roman Pontiff, or veneration, or obedience accorded to such by all, nor through the lapse of any period of time in the foregoing situation; (iii) it shall not be held as partially legitimate in any way; (iv) to any so promoted to be […] Roman Pontiff, no authority shall have been granted, nor shall it be considered to have been so granted either in the spiritual or the temporal domain; (v) each and all of their words, deeds, actions and enactments, howsoever made, and anything whatsoever to which these may give rise, shall be without force and shall grant no stability whatsoever nor any right to anyone; (vi) those thus promoted or elevated shall be deprived automatically, and without need for any further declaration, of all dignity, position, honour, title, authority, office and power.”
    Father; 1) I want *you* to explain in layman's terms exactly what you mean by "The Church". Obviously you mean it to be an infallible entity with divine power capable of judging the pope - and this is true whether he is the pope or only a papal claimant.

    There should be absolutely no ambiguity when it comes to this, which is why since you said it, now you explain it because the challenge is in the fact that you are claiming that "The Church" you speak of, has the divine power to judge a true pope - which is exactly what this entity would be doing if in fact it turns out that he is not just a papal claimant. In this case, "The Church" would be guilty of judging the pope - do you understand this?

    2) As I said, cuм ex says that anyone who has ever even been suspected of heresy is sufficient cause for invalidity. As you posted above from cuм ex - "if ever at any time it should appear that...has deviated from the Catholic Faith or fallen into some heresy..." All cuм ex requires is an ambiguous claim by literally anyone in the world. By that measure, the same applies to all people and priests per cuм ex: (i) the clergy, secular and religious; (ii) the laity) who ever participated in any capacity with the Novus Ordo, this includes Archbishop Lefebvre - are either illegitimate or can never be ordained - and if ordained, they self depose.    
     
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #485 on: November 15, 2019, 11:47:30 AM »
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  • Even though Bellarmine did not believe Liberius was a heretic, he says the clergy of Rome could strip him of his pontifical dignity, since they judged him to be a heretic.  There was no ipso facto loss of office for heresy before they judged him.  

    No, this is just an application of the occult vs. manifest distinction.  He's saying that the heresy became manifest in the external forum, even if there wasn't heresy in the internal forum.  So just as internal heresy does not cause loss of office, so too internal non-heresy does not contradict the external forum manifestation thereof.  This is merely the logical corollary of the occult vs. manifest distinction.  

    Liberius' heretical activity in the external forum created the existence of manifest heresy even if the heresy wasn't actually there in the internal forum.

    You CONTINUE to assert that discretionary judgment has as its object the pope, whereas it's nothing more than the Church "coming to the conclusion that the man is a heretic."  References to "stripping" him of the papacy are references to the material aspect of the office once it had been stripped ipso facto by the manifest heresy.  In so doing, you're falsely ... and dishonestly ... claiming that Bellarmine holds the SAME position as both Cajetan and John of St. Thomas.  Bellarmine himself obviously didn't thin so, since he refuted and rejected Cajetan.

    Offline Don Paolo

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #486 on: November 15, 2019, 12:00:03 PM »
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  • PaxChristi2 says, "Here's what a real theologian and canonist, Fr. Gregory Hesse, said about cuм ex Apostolatus."

         Clueless PacChristi2 fails to grasp that Fr. Hesse in the video segment said nothing on the point I was explaining, namely, that the provision which nullifies the election of a heretic pertains to divine law. Fr. Hesse spoke only on the merely ecclesiastical provision of cuм ex regarding those suspect of heresy. There were many medieval canonists who believed as I do; namely, that a heretic is an incapable subject who is to be declared invalidly elected if his heresy is discovered and proven. I quoted some of them in my book. Does PaxChristi2 think they were not real theologians?

    Offline Mr G

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #487 on: November 15, 2019, 12:30:39 PM »
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  • Divine Law does not teach that a secret heretic is unable to be elected to office in the Church.   Here's what a real theologian and canonist, Fr. Gregory Hesse, said about cuм ex Apostolatus.
      
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4lcuм8xetc
    Both Fr. Kramer and Fr. Hesse studied at the Angelicuм (The Pontifical University of Saint Thomas Aquinas in Rome), if I am not mistaken, around the same time. Same with Fr. Gruner. Yet, it seems like it is only Fr. Kramer who gets criticized for not being a "real theologian" and being trained in the Novus Ordo. The same criticism or complement should be given to all three.

    Also, some former friends and collaborators of Fr. Gruner criticizes Fr. Kramer for believing that Pope Benedict is still the Pope, but these same critics never mention that Fr. Gruner held the same belief and is the one who requested Fr. Kramer write a book about the issues being discuses here on CathInfo.



    Offline Don Paolo

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #488 on: November 15, 2019, 12:34:40 PM »
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  • You are not mistaken, Mr. G; all three of us studied at the Angelicuм, all three of us knew each other and were close friends for many years.

    Offline PaxChristi2

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #489 on: November 15, 2019, 12:42:20 PM »
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  • You CONTINUE to assert that discretionary judgment has as its object the pope, whereas it's nothing more than the Church "coming to the conclusion that the man is a heretic."  

    Leave out the word "whereas" and what you wrote it correct.  The object of the judgment is the determination that the Pope is a heretic.   That's what results in the "convicted" (non-coercive discretionary judgment), which is the condition that is necessary for a heretical Pope, who has not publicly separated himself from the Church, to lose his jurisdiction, dignity and title as head of the Church.

    Quote
    Bellarmine: "But it is certain (whatever one or another may think) that an occult heretic, if he be a bishop or even the supreme Pontiff, does not lose his jurisdiction, or dignity, or the title of head in the Church, until either he publicly separates himself from the Church, or, being convicted of heresy, is separated against his will.”

    You previously admitted that Bellarmine taught there were "two ways" a Pope can lose the pontificate.  The case of Liberius is one in which the Pope lost his office by being "convicted of heresy".

    Quote
    References to "stripping" him of the papacy are references to the material aspect of the office once it had been stripped ipso facto by the manifest heresy.

    Wrong again.  You're reading this in light of Bishop Sanborn's "Material Pope" heresy.    Bellarmine says the heretical Pope retains his jurisdiction until he is convicted of heresy.  And an "occult heretic" is not limited to those whose heresy is secret.  Any heresy less than notorious has no juridical effect (as Bishop Sanborn concedes), and hence is legally occult (as Fr. Gleize explains in the quote I posted previously).

    Quote
    In so doing, you're falsely ... and dishonestly ... claiming that Bellarmine holds the SAME position as both Cajetan and John of St. Thomas.  Bellarmine himself obviously didn't thin so, since he refuted and rejected Cajetan.

    No I used the word "stripped" because that's how the Sedes have translated it.   I included the Latin to show that he really said "abrogated" - the clergy of Rome "abrogated Liberius' pontificate."  

    We all know that Bellarmine believed the papacy was lost ipso facto, but that does not exclude the need of an antecedent judgement before it happens.  It only exclude the need for the Church to actually "depose" him.  If the Pope doesn't openly separate from the Church, he is first "convicted of heresy," then he is immediately ipso facto deposed.  

    John of St. Thomas and Cajetan held that the Pope is convicted of heresy, and then, after being convicted, must be indirectly deposed by the Church before ceasing to be Pope.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #490 on: November 15, 2019, 12:50:02 PM »
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  • Wrong again.  You're reading this in light of Bishop Sanborn's "Material Pope" heresy.

    #1) this is not Bishop Sanborn's thesis, but that of Bishop Guerard des Lauriers.  This exposes you as a dishonest liar, falsely attributing this thesis to +Sanborn.

    #2) it's utterly absurd that a buffoon like yourself have the temerity to denounce as "heresy" the thinking of one of the most well-respected pre-Vatican II theological minds, Bishop Guerard des Laurier ... professor in Rome, with many many years of formal post-graduate theological training, education and research; consultant on the definition of the Assumption; personal confessor to Pius XII.  But, yeah, I'll take the word of an arrogant buffoon with absolutely ZERO formal training in Catholic theology that this is "heresy".  What an idiot.  You have now totally exposed yourself and have made yourself a laughing-stock.

    The formal-material distinction as applied to the papacy exists in Bellarmine himself, so it's not a stretch at all to believe that his thinking applies this.


    Offline PaxChristi2

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #491 on: November 15, 2019, 12:51:53 PM »
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  • PaxChristi2 says, "Here's what a real theologian and canonist, Fr. Gregory Hesse, said about cuм ex Apostolatus."

         Clueless PacChristi2 fails to grasp that Fr. Hesse in the video segment said nothing on the point I was explaining, namely, that the provision which nullifies the election of a heretic pertains to divine law. Fr. Hesse spoke only on the merely ecclesiastical provision of cuм ex regarding those suspect of heresy. There were many medieval canonists who believed as I do; namely, that a heretic is an incapable subject who is to be declared invalidly elected if his heresy is discovered and proven. I quoted some of them in my book. Does PaxChristi2 think they were not real theologians?
    By "heretic", do you mean lacking the virtue of faith, while remaining externally united to the Church?  If so, there is nothing in Divine Law that prevents such a person from being elected Pope.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #492 on: November 15, 2019, 12:55:32 PM »
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  • Quote
    But some law is merely a reflection of divine law.  By saying what he said, the Pope was making a commentary on divine law.  He cannot override divine law with his legislation.  So, for instance, he was making a commentary about Universal Acceptance.  If Universal Acceptance is a infallible sign of legitimate papacy, for instance, then no amount of legislation can change that.  So "cuм Ex" cannot be dismissed as merely legislation; it's also making a theological statement.
    Well, you have to distinguish between the spiritual office and the material office.  The key problem of sedevacantism, is that they apply the SPIRITUAL penalties for heresy (whether occult, manifest, notorious, public, etc) to the MATERIAL office.  One can be spiritually excommunicated for private/occult heresy and no one else in the world would know about it.  When we speak of Divine Law in regards to heresy, this involves sins against the First Commandment.  It involves SPIRITUAL penalties only.
    .
    The question of material offices and deposition are related to the HUMAN/govt part of the Church and hence, such laws can be changed.  If the Church can change the laws pertaining to WHO elects the pope, then She can change WHO can be elected (up to a certain point).  This "point" which cannot be crossed is obviously related to non-catholics, who can never be elected.
    .
    When cuм Ex says that if a heretic is elected, then that election is invalid - they are obviously talking about a FORMAL (already declared by the Church) heretic.  Such a one, say after Martin Luther was anathematized, could not be elected.  And St Pius X's and XII's laws would not allow Martin Luther to be elected either.
    .
    What can be changed of cuм Ex are the rules for occult/material heretics...ie those who are not FORMALLY declared to be outside the Church.  This is what both Pius' changed.  They said that all "church penalties, of whatever nature" are suspended for the election only.  Obviously, Martin Luther's status as a non-Catholic cannot be "suspended".  He's already outside of the Church.  Such suspension only applies to those not yet declared non-catholics, as they are not yet judged by CHURCH LAW, since they are not formal heretics.  Only formal heretics are outside of the Church by CHURCH Law, as it relates to the material office.
    .
    A not-yet-formal (i.e. material, private) heretic can hold the material office, even if he spiritually dead (in his soul) due to his obstinate holding to heresy....WHICH HAS NOT YET BEEN ESTABLISHED MATERIALLY (i.e. by the Church).
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    All heretics (formal, material, occult) are judged by Divine Law and are spiritually non-Catholic.
    Only formal heretic are judged by Church law, and are ruled spiritually and materially, as non-Catholic.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #493 on: November 15, 2019, 01:11:34 PM »
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    Bellarmine says the heretical Pope retains his jurisdiction until he is convicted of heresy.  And an "occult heretic" is not limited to those whose heresy is secret.  Any heresy less than notorious has no juridical effect (as Bishop Sanborn concedes), and hence is legally occult (as Fr. Gleize explains in the quote I posted previously).
    I cannot say this for sure, but it's only logical that +Bellarmine was speaking of the material jurisdiction being retained.  Because +Bellarmine elsewhere says that a unorthodox pope should be "resisted" and that Catholics should avoid him and even challenge his errors.  There could be 2 explanations which explain this apparent contradiction:
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    1.  If a pope scandalizes the faithful by unorthodoxy, even if it was by accident, he still holds material office but the faithful are within their moral rights (and duty) to "temporarily" resist/ignore his spiritual jurisdiction, until such time as the matter is cleared up.  (Ladislaus, this would line up with your "doubtful pope" situation).  This would be a spiritual resistance/ignoring, and wouldn't affect any jurisdiction materially.
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    2.  If a pope scandalizes the faithful by unorthodoxy, and it's not an accident (i.e. he believes his error, but hasn't been corrected/rebuked), then the pope's spiritual jurisdiction would be impaired (yet only God would know this, as only He can read hearts), yet his material jurisdiction is still intact.  Just like above, the faithful are within their rights/duty to resist/ignore him.
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    Both of these situations are not cleared up UNTIL the Church deposes the bad pope, because ONLY a deposition can remove him from office.  And such a deposition is the act of declaring that the pope is a formal heretic.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #494 on: November 15, 2019, 01:15:11 PM »
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