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Author Topic: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!  (Read 43436 times)

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Offline Mr G

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Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
« Reply #30 on: October 18, 2019, 12:15:39 PM »
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  • When I read Billot and others on universal acceptance, they seem not to care that a pope could gain office by unsavory means (simony, etc), but are only concerned that he gained that universal consent.  

    IF that is true, then it would seem not to matter if a reigning pope were hauled off and jailed, and a usurper put in place:

    If that usurper has gained universal consent, he becomes a legitimate pope, despite the intrigue, they seem to say.
    I remember Fr. Hesse had a conference in which he mentioned a case in which two Popes alternated between being Pope and Anit-Pope depending onw who was sitting in the Chair of Peter. Fr. Hesse even went to the Vatican Library to look up the official "Papal yearbook" and confirmed it was true, both Popes went from being Pope and Anti-Poe in the same year depending on which faction managed to put their Pope in the Vatican. BUT that was a time when heresy or apostasy was not an issue.

    Offline Mr G

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #31 on: October 18, 2019, 12:36:36 PM »
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  • 5. I heard the Pope Emeritus was in bad health, and he is certainly getting very old. Many (most? all?) news organizations have an obituary written up for him already. In a few years, we won't have to have this argument -- but will all the Benevacantists become sedevacantist at that point?

    YES, in the same way as we are all sedevanctist between the time of JPII death and B16's election, and NO they will not be what we normally refer to sedevacantist (those who believe Piux XII was the last Pope).
    If I remember correctly, Fr. Kramer said if Pope Benedict dies then we will not have a Pope until the next conclave after Pope Francis death. (Assuming Pope Francis dies and not resigns). 


    Offline King Wenceslas

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #32 on: October 18, 2019, 12:46:55 PM »
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  • Was there Universal Acceptance of Benedict IX?



    Quote
    Benedict IX vs. Everyone Else

    Benedict IX had the most confusing papacy, or the most confusing three papacies, in the history of the Catholic Church. Benedict was forcibly removed from office in 1044 and Sylvester II was elected to take his place. In 1045 Benedict seized control again, and again he was removed — but this time he resigned as well. He was succeeded first by Gregory VI and then by Clement II, after which he returned once again for a few months before being ejected. It's not clear that any of the times Benedict was removed from office was canonically valid, which would mean that the other three mentioned here were all antipopes, but the Annuario Pontificio continues to list them as genuine popes.


    Offline Nishant Xavier

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #33 on: October 18, 2019, 01:16:11 PM »
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  • For the sake of hearing out a less polemical Bene-Vacantist before judging the case. I still don't think Pope Benedict XVI is still Pope. But here's a question to BVs, supposing he is, then approves all of Pope Francis' acts anyway? What difference does it make in any way? They would still then be effectively from the Pope, right?

    "
    How and why Pope Benedict XVI’s resignation is invalid by the law itself

    Here we offer a calm reasoned canonical argument for the invalidity of Pope Benedict’s resignation, for any Catholic who wants to know the truth.
    [font={defaultattr}]
    Why should any Catholic defend the validity of Pope Benedict XVI’s resignation?
    Are we obliged by canon law to do so? —No.
    Is it a sin not to do so when there is evidence that it is invalid? — No.
    Is there a presumption of law that it is valid? — No.
    Is there evidence that it was invalid? — Yes.
    Why is Pope Benedict XVI’s resignation invalid?
    To understand this, lets us refer to the original texts of the resignation and Canon Law:
    Here is the text of the renunciation in the Latin original:[/font]
    Quote
    Quapropter bene conscius ponderis huius actus plena libertate declaro me ministerio Episcopi Romae, Successoris Sancti Petri, mihi per manus Cardinalium die 19 aprilis MMV commisso renuntiare…

    What are the requirements for a valid Papal resignation? — These are found in the 1983 Code of Canon Law, Canon 332 §2;

    Quote
    § 2. Si contingat ut Romanus Pontifex muneri suo renuntiet, ad validitatem requiritur ut renuntiatio libere fiat et rite manifestetur, non vero ut a quopiam acceptetur.

    What is the first condition or requirement, then, according to Canon 332 §2 for a valid papal resignation? — That it happens that the Roman Pontiff renounce his munus (muneri suo renuntiet).

    Does the text of Pope Benedict renounce the munus? — No, it says clearly declaro me ministerio … renuntiare.

    If the renunciation does not regard the munus, does canon 332 §2 even apply? — Yes and no.  Yes, because since it does not fulfill the condition of a resignation within the term (in this case, munus) of Canon 332 §2, its not valid.  And no, inasmuch as being a juridic act which is outside the terms of Canon 332 §2 it does not regard a papal resignation, but merely a retirement from active ministry.

    Can the resignation of Pope Benedict XVI be construed as valid?

    Some say and seem to hold, that a Pope can resign his munus by resigning his ministerium. Is that a valid argument? — It is not, because its not a matter of mere assertion, the Law itself must declare it. Remember, there can be no innovation in Church Law without a positive act of a competent superior.

    But is not the act of the resignation a juridic act which establishes a new way of resigning? — No. Juridical acts are not tyrannical acts, they cannot justify themselves, but must be in accord with Church Law. This is because as Vatican I declared, even the Pope has no authority to invent novelties.

    But if one were to sustain that ministerium can supposit or be understood as munus, how would he have to prove it? — As canon 17 declares, when there is a doubt as to the signification of the law, one must have recourse to other parts of the law, and if there is no clarity there, then to the mind of the legislator.

    Does the Code of Canon Law sanction the supposition of ministerium for munus? — No. In no part of the Code is a ministerium ever said to be a munus, or a munus to be a ministerium.  In fact, according to Canon 17, you must accept the definitions of terms contained in the Code itself as the AUTHENTIC expression of the Mind of the Legislator (Pope John Paul II) in promulgating the code of Canon Law.  Now in canon 145 §1, the Code defines every ecclesiastical office (officium) as a munus, not a ministerium!

    What about canonical tradition, does it require a renunciation of munus for a valid resignation of papal office? — Yes, this is clear. Because in all previous renunciations there is not only a mention of munus (or its synonyms: onus, honor, dignitas, or proper names: papatus or episcopatus) but there is also no mention of ministerium. Nor is there any canonical tradition that one can suppose terms which do not mean munus according to canonical tradition for munus. The pope is not the creator or inventor of language or linguistic forms of signification, otherwise nothing would be certain or objective in the Church. Nay, as canon 38 says, if a Pope acts in any way contrary to the terms of Canon 332 §2, his act is only valid if he expressly mentions his intent to act with a derogation of its terms.

    If both the text of the Code of Canon Law and canonical tradition require the mention of munus in a papal resignation, then in virtue of Canon 17, do those who claim Benedict’s renunciation of ministerium is valid, have any ground to stand upon? — No, none at all.

    Then, must all Catholics recognize that in virtue of the law itself, the resignation is invalid? — Yes.

    Does not the fact that the Cardinals all act as if it were valid, mean anything? — No, because according to canon 332 §2, even if the whole world held it to be valid, if it does not meet the conditions of Canon 332 §2, it is not valid. There is no wiggle room here.

    But does not the very fact a Conclave was held in March of 2013 to elect a new pope make the resignation of Benedict XVI valid? Does not his tacit consent to this make it valid? — No on both accounts. First of all, because nothing makes a resignation valid except its conformity to canon 332 §2. Second, because by Divine Institution, the Petrine Munus cannot be shared by more than one individual. Ergo, if Benedict did not renounce it, he retains it. If he retains it, its contrary to divine law to elect another pope so long as he lives. And in his act of renunciation he never ordered a Conclave to be called in his lifetime. That he consented to such a thing may be either because of fear or of substantial error as regards what is necessary to resign his office. If it is fear, it does not make it valid. If he is in substantial error, then in accord with Canon 188, its expressly invalid by the law itself.
    [font={defaultattr}]
    From: https://vericatholici.wordpress.com/2018/12/19/how-and-why-pope-benedict-xvis-resignation-is-invalid-by-the-law-itself/[/font]

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #34 on: October 18, 2019, 01:17:37 PM »
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  • I have absolutely no idea how to reconcile the quote of ABL provided by XS saying “I have absolutely no reservation about the legitimacy of your papacy” to JPII, vs the same ABL saying “I do not say you can’t say the pope is not the pope.”

    Either ABL’s position vacillated, or, what?

    I’m sure there is an explanation beyond incoherence and/or vacillation, but it eludes me.

    So I remain patient and wait.  In God’s good time, perhaps He will give me a proper understanding, and if He should not, glory be to God!

    I have no problem accepting mystery.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #35 on: October 18, 2019, 01:52:40 PM »
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  • I’m sure there is an explanation beyond incoherence and/or vacillation, but it eludes me.

    Vacillation is too negative to describe it.  Changing circuмstances can alter one's application of Catholic principles to them.  Someone who may have had no doubt about Wojtyla might have doubts about Bergoglio.  Based on what JP2 says one day, one might think he's Catholic, but then based on what he says the next, you might reconsider.  You'll find that +Lefebvre's greatest sympathy with sedevacantism came right after the suspension of the SSPX by Paul VI and then right around the time of Assisi.

    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #36 on: October 18, 2019, 04:39:21 PM »
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  • When I read Billot and others on universal acceptance, they seem not to care that a pope could gain office by unsavory means (simony, etc), but are only concerned that he gained that universal consent.  

    IF that is true, then it would seem not to matter if a reigning pope were hauled off and jailed, and a usurper put in place:

    If that usurper has gained universal consent, he becomes a legitimate pope, despite the intrigue, they seem to say.
    Except that the clergy who were responsible for publishing the Roman Pontifical didn't see it that way.  They have Pope Martin as still being pope over a year after Pope Eugene was elected.
    Pope St. Eugene I:

    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05598a.htm

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Eugene_I

    https://archive.org/details/thelivesofthepop01platuoft/page/n181
    So the authors of the Roman Pontifical certainly saw a problem with having Pope St. Eugene ascending to the Roman See while Pope Martin was in prison without having resigned.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #37 on: October 18, 2019, 04:56:53 PM »
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  • Except that the clergy who were responsible for publishing the Roman Pontifical didn't see it that way.  They have Pope Martin as still being pope over a year after Pope Eugene was elected.
    Pope St. Eugene I:

    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05598a.htm

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Eugene_I

    https://archive.org/details/thelivesofthepop01platuoft/page/n181
    So the authors of the Roman Pontifical certainly saw a problem with having Pope St. Eugene ascending to the Roman See while Pope Martin was in prison without having resigned.

    I do understand your point.

    But I also have to believe men of the caliber of Billot must also have been familiar with the event you reference.

    Unfortunately, Billot is no longer here to explain how universal consent makes a pope a dogmatic fact, in light of this historical event.

    One of the things that has been on my list for a long time was to restart the study of Latin so that I could read works like this.

    Anyway, this is another one of those areas where I am forced to accept a bit of mystery as regards the harmonization of seeming contradictions.  Yet I am sure the mystery is only on account of my subjective ignorance, and not because such harmonization does not exist.

    Somehow, I sense the matter of the doctrine of dogmatic facts not being developed until centuries after this incident is relevant.

    I wonder what the earliest references to the term “dogmatic fact are?

    I think before then (1850 +/-), the concept of dogmatic facts was merely implicit as a theological deduction?
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #38 on: October 18, 2019, 06:52:18 PM »
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  • I don’t think the definition of dogmatic fact was ever intended to apply to men who cast doubt on their own legitimacy. When tens of thousands of Catholics are having doubts about the legitimacy of the Conciliar popes, it is already long past the window of applicability for that particular doctrine.  And it’s not just a few cranky laymen.  Hundreds of clergy are having doubts too if they haven’t already come to the conclusion that the see is empty.

    Offline Don Paolo

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #39 on: October 20, 2019, 06:44:54 AM »
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  •      So, the best argument Matthew can come up with is a blustering ad hominem rant. His comments about me demonstrate that he knows next to nothing about me: "And who adheres to the unpopular, much disputed opinion of a pure choleric like Fr. Kramer? Cholerics make good leaders sometimes, but they often go off course (see: Fr. Joseph Pfeiffer). They generally don't make good administrators, thinkers, or planners. They have strong emotions. Cholerics aren't known for their careful, objective reasoning and clear thinking!" 
          First, I am not a "choleric" at all, but the test results always indicate that I am a "melancholic". According to Wikipedia, "Melancholic individuals tend to be analytical and detail-oriented, and they are deep thinkers and feelers." Yep, that's me! Cholerics don't respond to libellous attacks by sitting at a computer for three years and composing a 676 page systematic, in-depth, critical refutation of the theological and doctrinal errors of the heretical attackers. Not only did I refute the theological errors of Salza & Siscoe, but I put together a critical, analytical examination of the questions on heresy, defection from the faith and the Church; the question of a heretical pope and his removal, etc.; and I formulated several original theological arguments not advanced before by any theologians; and I cited copious texts of many eminent scholars and authorities. So, Fr. Kramer a choleric? As the Duke of Wellington said to the man who approached him in the Bank of England asking, "Mr. Smith I presume?" ; to whom Lord Wellington replied, "If you can believe that, you can believe anything."

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #40 on: October 20, 2019, 07:16:08 AM »
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  •     So, the best argument Matthew can come up with is a blustering ad hominem rant. His comments about me demonstrate that he knows next to nothing about me: "And who adheres to the unpopular, much disputed opinion of a pure choleric like Fr. Kramer? Cholerics make good leaders sometimes, but they often go off course (see: Fr. Joseph Pfeiffer). They generally don't make good administrators, thinkers, or planners. They have strong emotions. Cholerics aren't known for their careful, objective reasoning and clear thinking!"
          First, I am not a "choleric" at all, but the test results always indicate that I am a "melancholic". According to Wikipedia, "Melancholic individuals tend to be analytical and detail-oriented, and they are deep thinkers and feelers." Yep, that's me! Cholerics don't respond to libellous attacks by sitting at a computer for three years and composing a 676 page systematic, in-depth, critical refutation of the theological and doctrinal errors of the heretical attackers. Not only did I refute the theological errors of Salza & Siscoe, but I put together a critical, analytical examination of the questions on heresy, defection from the faith and the Church; the question of a heretical pope and his removal, etc.; and I formulated several original theological arguments not advanced before by any theologians; and I cited copious texts of many eminent scholars and authorities. So, Fr. Kramer a choleric? As the Duke of Wellington said to the man who approached him in the Bank of England asking, "Mr. Smith I presume?" ; to whom Lord Wellington replied, "If you can believe that, you can believe anything."

    Greetings Fr. Kramer-

    How do you respond to Sisco/Salza’s use of Billot (et al), that a universally accepted pope is in fact pope, and that whatever vice or defect may have led to his election, it is healed in the root upon such universal acceptance, and such a pope possesses every quality of legitimacy, rendering said papacy a dogmatic fact?

    If I understand your argument, you are saying exactly the opposite:

    Francis’ papacy does NOT fully possess the
    office, and the universal consent of the Church (ie., Bishops) does NOT heel this defect.

    And at a more pedestrian level, what do you make of the repeated denials of BXVI himself regarding the suggestion that he has not fully relinquished his papacy?
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Don Paolo

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #41 on: October 20, 2019, 07:51:59 AM »
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  • An invalid election can be healed at the root if the chair is vacant. Universal acceptance of a pope-elect while the chair is occupied does not unseat a reigning pontiff. Secondly, under certain specified conditions the universal acceptance of a claimant establishes the dogmatic fact that the individual in question is the valid pope. Such a dogmatic fact is a matter of divine law, which cannot be nullified by the mere legislation any human power. (If it did not pertain to divine law, it could not establish a dogmatic fact.) Therefore, the ruling of Paul IV (cuм Ex Apostolatus Officio), confirmed by Pius V (Inter Multiplices), which sets forth the nullity of an election of a pope who is subsequently discovered to be a heretic, is not a nerely ecclesiastical law, but is an application of divine law which establishes that universal acceptance does not heal at the root the invalid election of a heretic.

    Offline Don Paolo

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #42 on: October 20, 2019, 08:04:24 AM »
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  • One cannot partially vacate the office or partially occupy it. God confers the pontificate on one man who has no power to divide it. Benedict XVI never expressed an intention to renounce the office, but carefully distinguished between the munus and the exercise of the ministry, and explicitly renounced only the latter. In his subsequent clarifications, he repeatedly stated that he had renounced the "exercise of the ministry". To date, he has never stated that he renounced the munus, which is required ad validitatem for a valid papal resignation.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #43 on: October 20, 2019, 08:33:46 AM »
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  • Greetings Fr. Kramer-

    Is it possible that you have read too much into BXVI's use of the words resigning the "exercise of the ministry?"  He did say: "The Pope is one, it is Francis.” (Corriere Della Sera, June 28).  How is that statement compatible with one still possessing the munus of Pope?  If your response will be that it matters not what BXVI has to say to a secular newspaper, but only what words he used in the official declaration of resignation, then my question would be to wonder why BXVI's reference of the exercise of the ministry must be read as retaining the munus?  Doesn't such a statement as that made to Corriera Della Sera imply such was not the case (i.e., that he did not wish to signify by those words that he was retaining the munus)?

    As regards universal consent being incapable of validating the papacy of a claimant while it is occupied by another, I note that Billot says:

    "However, God will never allow the whole Church to recognize as Pontiff someone who is not really and lawfully.  Thus, as long as a pope is accepted by the Church, and united with her like the head is united to the body, one can no longer raise any doubt about a possible defective election… For the universal acceptance of the Church heals in the root any vitiated election."

    But in fact, for you to be correct in your thesis, we are still forced to admit that Billot (et al) were wrong: God did in fact allow the whole Church to recognize as Pontiff someone who is not really and lawfully Pope.  It is precisely the lawfulness o Francis which you are challenging in saying that BXVI still retains the office.

    Which is all another way of saying that if the whole Church is recognizing Francis as Pope, it is not possible that a legal defect could exist by which BXVI would still retain the office.

    The alternative is to believe the most common opinion of the theologians on this point was wrong.

    Is this not correct?

    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Tony La Rosa: Benedict XVI Is the True Pope!
    « Reply #44 on: October 20, 2019, 11:05:11 AM »
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  • I don’t think the definition of dogmatic fact was ever intended to apply to men who cast doubt on their own legitimacy. When tens of thousands of Catholics are having doubts about the legitimacy of the Conciliar popes, it is already long past the window of applicability for that particular doctrine.  And it’s not just a few cranky laymen.  Hundreds of clergy are having doubts too if they haven’t already come to the conclusion that the see is empty.

    Exactly right.  Many good serious Catholics are having grave doubts about who these men are.  There's hardly a universal peaceful acceptance such as one found during the reign of Pius XII.  In fact, the more orthodox and serious one is as a Catholic, the more one is inclined to have doubts about them.  I find that 95%+ of these universal acceptors are Novus Ordites who likely no longer have the faith, and that this fails to qualify for this universal acceptance.  Among Traditional Catholics, very few indeed have no doubts or questions or uncertainties regarding the V2 papal claimants.