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Author Topic: TomGubbinsKimmage undying supporter of the heretical Novus Ordo church.  (Read 122588 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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Ok, it seems to me that you’re pooh poohing his opinion by saying; “that’s his opinion”. If not, what do you mean by that? Do you have an opinion from a reputable source that agrees with you?
Yes, I already posted one from Suarez and one from here - I happened across both of them so I'm pretty sure there are plenty of others, which is to say apparently it is one of those subjects that remain a dispute between theologians - which is what I have read in a few different places these last few days.




"But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

Offline Pax Vobis

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Yes, I already posted one from Suarez and one from here - I happened across both of them so I'm pretty sure there are plenty of others, which is to say apparently it is one of those subjects that remain a dispute between theologians - which is what I have read in a few different places these last few days.
Ok, Stubborn, so can you finally admit that Sedevacantism and 'loss of membership' is not wrong.  It's a valid theological opinion.

You can follow Suarez all you want (nobody is stopping you) but also remember, that Suarez is just an opinion as well.

If both sides of the aisle (R&R and Sedeism) would remember that IT'S JUST AN OPINION, then Tradition would be better off.

But if both of you (and many others) go back to the tired, old, worn-out arguments of yesterday and start arguing as if sedeism is the ONLY answer or that a pope can NEVER lose office, then Tradition will stay fractured.

We all have to do better.  We're in an unprecedented crisis.  ONE SIDE OF AN OPINION, OR THE OTHER SIDE, IS NOT GOING TO SOLVE IT.  40+ years of debating has proved that...


Offline Stubborn

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Ok, Stubborn, so can you finally admit that Sedevacantism and 'loss of membership' is not wrong.  It's a valid theological opinion.

You can follow Suarez all you want (nobody is stopping you) but also remember, that Suarez is just an opinion as well.

If both sides of the aisle (R&R and Sedeism) would remember that IT'S JUST AN OPINION, then Tradition would be better off.

But if both of you (and many others) go back to the tired, old, worn-out arguments of yesterday and start arguing as if sedeism is the ONLY answer or that a pope can NEVER lose office, then Tradition will stay fractured.

We all have to do better.  We're in an unprecedented crisis.  ONE SIDE OF AN OPINION, OR THE OTHER SIDE, IS NOT GOING TO SOLVE IT.  40+ years of debating has proved that...
As I've said and been saying, I hope they are right. I don't think they are, but I hope so. 
"But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

Offline Quo vadis Domine

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Yes, I already posted one from Suarez and one from here - I happened across both of them so I'm pretty sure there are plenty of others, which is to say apparently it is one of those subjects that remain a dispute between theologians - which is what I have read in a few different places these last few days.

Here is the problem, Suarez is talking about excommunicates in general. All (manifest) heretics are excommunicated and separate themselves from the Church by their heresy and thus cease to be members of the Church, but not all excommunicates are heretics and thus can still be members of the Church.

Excommunication does not necessarily render one a non-Catholic and outside the Church, but (manifest and pertinacious) heresy does put the heretic outside the Church. Excommunication is a medicinal penalty imposed by the Church to encourage the miscreant to reform his ways and to repent.
For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

Offline Stubborn

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Here is the problem, Suarez is talking about excommunicates in general. All (manifest) heretics are excommunicated and separate themselves from the Church by their heresy and thus cease to be members of the Church, but not all excommunicates are heretics and thus can still be members of the Church.

Excommunication does not necessarily render one a non-Catholic and outside the Church, but (manifest and pertinacious) heresy does put the heretic outside the Church. Excommunication is a medicinal penalty imposed by the Church to encourage the miscreant to reform his ways and to repent.
Now it is you who are disagreeing with Bellarmine, who disagreed with Suarez lol....

"Bellarmine maintains that excommunicates cease to be members of the Church. He argues in the first place from the text in Saint Matthew's Gospel : " If he will not hear the Church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican."  He draws his second argument from a canon in the Decree of Gratian which reads as follows...."
"But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse