Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

« previous next »
Pages: 1 ... 5 6 [7]

Author Topic: TomGubbinsKimmage undying supporter of the heretical Novus Ordo church.  (Read 128381 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online Stubborn

  • Supporter
  • *****
  • Posts: 15057
  • Reputation: +6224/-919
  • Gender: Male
Re: TomGubbinsKimmage undying supporter of the heretical Novus Ordo church.
« Reply #90 on: Yesterday at 11:01:18 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Quo vadis Domine on Yesterday at 07:23:42 AM
    Ok, it seems to me that you’re pooh poohing his opinion by saying; “that’s his opinion”. If not, what do you mean by that? Do you have an opinion from a reputable source that agrees with you?
    Yes, I already posted one from Suarez and one from here - I happened across both of them so I'm pretty sure there are plenty of others, which is to say apparently it is one of those subjects that remain a dispute between theologians - which is what I have read in a few different places these last few days.




    Logged
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 12968
    • Reputation: +8191/-2542
    • Gender: Male
    Re: TomGubbinsKimmage undying supporter of the heretical Novus Ordo church.
    « Reply #91 on: Yesterday at 11:09:45 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Stubborn on Yesterday at 11:01:18 AM
    Yes, I already posted one from Suarez and one from here - I happened across both of them so I'm pretty sure there are plenty of others, which is to say apparently it is one of those subjects that remain a dispute between theologians - which is what I have read in a few different places these last few days.
    Ok, Stubborn, so can you finally admit that Sedevacantism and 'loss of membership' is not wrong.  It's a valid theological opinion.

    You can follow Suarez all you want (nobody is stopping you) but also remember, that Suarez is just an opinion as well.

    If both sides of the aisle (R&R and Sedeism) would remember that IT'S JUST AN OPINION, then Tradition would be better off.

    But if both of you (and many others) go back to the tired, old, worn-out arguments of yesterday and start arguing as if sedeism is the ONLY answer or that a pope can NEVER lose office, then Tradition will stay fractured.

    We all have to do better.  We're in an unprecedented crisis.  ONE SIDE OF AN OPINION, OR THE OTHER SIDE, IS NOT GOING TO SOLVE IT.  40+ years of debating has proved that...
    Logged

    Online Stubborn

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 15057
    • Reputation: +6224/-919
    • Gender: Male
    Re: TomGubbinsKimmage undying supporter of the heretical Novus Ordo church.
    « Reply #92 on: Yesterday at 12:14:32 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on Yesterday at 11:09:45 AM
    Ok, Stubborn, so can you finally admit that Sedevacantism and 'loss of membership' is not wrong.  It's a valid theological opinion.

    You can follow Suarez all you want (nobody is stopping you) but also remember, that Suarez is just an opinion as well.

    If both sides of the aisle (R&R and Sedeism) would remember that IT'S JUST AN OPINION, then Tradition would be better off.

    But if both of you (and many others) go back to the tired, old, worn-out arguments of yesterday and start arguing as if sedeism is the ONLY answer or that a pope can NEVER lose office, then Tradition will stay fractured.

    We all have to do better.  We're in an unprecedented crisis.  ONE SIDE OF AN OPINION, OR THE OTHER SIDE, IS NOT GOING TO SOLVE IT.  40+ years of debating has proved that...
    As I've said and been saying, I hope they are right. I don't think they are, but I hope so. 
    Logged
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 4775
    • Reputation: +2922/-673
    • Gender: Male
    Re: TomGubbinsKimmage undying supporter of the heretical Novus Ordo church.
    « Reply #93 on: Yesterday at 01:27:02 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Stubborn on Yesterday at 11:01:18 AM
    Yes, I already posted one from Suarez and one from here - I happened across both of them so I'm pretty sure there are plenty of others, which is to say apparently it is one of those subjects that remain a dispute between theologians - which is what I have read in a few different places these last few days.

    Here is the problem, Suarez is talking about excommunicates in general. All (manifest) heretics are excommunicated and separate themselves from the Church by their heresy and thus cease to be members of the Church, but not all excommunicates are heretics and thus can still be members of the Church.

    Excommunication does not necessarily render one a non-Catholic and outside the Church, but (manifest and pertinacious) heresy does put the heretic outside the Church. Excommunication is a medicinal penalty imposed by the Church to encourage the miscreant to reform his ways and to repent.
    Logged
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Online Stubborn

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 15057
    • Reputation: +6224/-919
    • Gender: Male
    Re: TomGubbinsKimmage undying supporter of the heretical Novus Ordo church.
    « Reply #94 on: Yesterday at 02:06:56 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Quo vadis Domine on Yesterday at 01:27:02 PM
    Here is the problem, Suarez is talking about excommunicates in general. All (manifest) heretics are excommunicated and separate themselves from the Church by their heresy and thus cease to be members of the Church, but not all excommunicates are heretics and thus can still be members of the Church.

    Excommunication does not necessarily render one a non-Catholic and outside the Church, but (manifest and pertinacious) heresy does put the heretic outside the Church. Excommunication is a medicinal penalty imposed by the Church to encourage the miscreant to reform his ways and to repent.
    Now it is you who are disagreeing with Bellarmine, who disagreed with Suarez lol....

    "Bellarmine maintains that excommunicates cease to be members of the Church. He argues in the first place from the text in Saint Matthew's Gospel : " If he will not hear the Church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican."  He draws his second argument from a canon in the Decree of Gratian which reads as follows...."
    Logged
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 4775
    • Reputation: +2922/-673
    • Gender: Male
    Re: TomGubbinsKimmage undying supporter of the heretical Novus Ordo church.
    « Reply #95 on: Yesterday at 04:28:40 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Stubborn on Yesterday at 02:06:56 PM
    Now it is you who are disagreeing with Bellarmine, who disagreed with Suarez lol....

    "Bellarmine maintains that excommunicates cease to be members of the Church. He argues in the first place from the text in Saint Matthew's Gospel : " If he will not hear the Church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican."  He draws his second argument from a canon in the Decree of Gratian which reads as follows...."



    My point is not about whether excommunicates are still members of the Church or not, but that heretics (they are excommunicated ipso facto) are certainly not members of the Church.

    Can you please give a direct quote from Saint Robert where he says that *all* excommunicates are no longer members of the Church? It is true, as I stated above, *some* excommunicates cease to be members of the Church, but you are conflating two things. The pertinacious heretic kicks himself outside the Church by his heresy, there is no need for a sentence of excommunication. Again, all heretics are excommunicates, but not all excommunicates are heretics.

    With all of that being said, because the Church hasn’t rendered judgment yet and because of the huge amount of confusion, I personally give leeway to those who still believe these degenerate heretics to be popes.
    Logged
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 4775
    • Reputation: +2922/-673
    • Gender: Male
    Re: TomGubbinsKimmage undying supporter of the heretical Novus Ordo church.
    « Reply #96 on: Yesterday at 04:44:49 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0

    • Duplicate post.
    Logged
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Angelus

    • Supporter
    • ***
    • Posts: 1379
    • Reputation: +615/-115
    • Gender: Male
    Re: TomGubbinsKimmage undying supporter of the heretical Novus Ordo church.
    « Reply #97 on: Yesterday at 05:20:40 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • The short article below (6 pages) compares and contrasts Bellarmine/Suarez/Pighius, etc. with the teaching of Pastor Aeternus.

    https://theologicalstudies.net/wp-content/uploads/2024/06/Is-Bellarmines-Fourth-Proposition-Identical-with-the-Extreme-View-of-Albert-Pighius_.pdf

    Here is a quick summary:

    "The 'fourth opinion' outlined by Bellarmine, which he ascribes with the theological note of 'most certain and assured'...

    "The supreme Pontiff is not only not able to err as Pontiff (uti pontificem) but that even as a particular person he is not able to be heretical, by pertinaciously believing something contrary to the faith. (Bellarmine’s fourth proposition, De Romano Pontifice, book 4, chap. VI)

    "...we can determine that Pastor Aeternus formally adopted Bellarmine’s version of this doctrine, by dismissing the possibility that the Apostolic See or its individual occupants could ever publicly defect from the Catholic faith
    Logged

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 47544
    • Reputation: +28134/-5258
    • Gender: Male
    Re: TomGubbinsKimmage undying supporter of the heretical Novus Ordo church.
    « Reply #98 on: Yesterday at 06:04:02 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Argument ... as usual, based on failure to make distinctions, this time between ... major and minor excommunication, the former severing communion with the Church and resulting in loss of membership, the latter simply being a punitive deprivation of the Sacraments.

    https://www.newadvent.org/summa/5021.htm
    Quote
    I answer that, When a man enters the Church by Baptism, he is admitted to two things, viz. the body of the faithful and the participation of the sacraments: and this latter presupposes the former, since the faithful are united together in the participation of the sacraments. Consequently a person may be expelled from the Church in two ways. First, by being deprived merely of the participation of the sacraments, and this is the minor excommunication. Secondly, by being deprived of both, and this is the major excommunication, of which the above is the definition.
    Logged
    Pages: 1 ... 5 6 [7]
    « previous next »