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Author Topic: TomGubbinsKimmage undying supporter of the heretical Novus Ordo church.  (Read 11173 times)

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Offline Everlast22

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A lot of people in the Novus Ordo (especially very conservative and red-pilled N.O.'s) just don't want their pride hurt, as well as an exodus from their social circle. They know deep down at this time what the truth is... The patterns are there, the proof is there, it's just burying their head in the sand at this point..

This isn't 1985 any more. The revelation is clear as mud. 

There also seems to be an attachment to lukewarmness in the N.O. It's kind of unwritten dogma of the N.O. to be lukewarm, or your a kook. Any one feel simialr?


Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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A lot of people in the Novus Ordo (especially very conservative and red-pilled N.O.'s) just don't want their pride hurt, as well as an exodus from their social circle. 

That is the major motivation for most people I think.  The greater 'Catholic Church' has parishes all over the place filled with 'normal' people.  Cutting oneself off from that, and the outcast/backlash that comes with it, is really more than most people want or are able to deal with. This way you can acknowledge 'hey, there's always been problems' without having to examine doctrine, like the guarantee of Indefectibility or something.


Offline Angelus

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So ... that's an incredibly tenuous distinction.  To be subject to the "Papacy" in some abstract form reduces to little more than lip service.  There must be a concrete expression and manfiestation of that to THIS pope.  There's actually some condemned proposition out there about separating the office and the office holder.

Where the line has always been drawn is between the Pope acting as Pope, i.e. exercising his office v.s the Pope acting as private person or private theologian or Pope acting as pastor or Pope acting as bishop of Rome.  In the former case, he must be intending to teach the entire Church or to impose some discipline on the entire Church.  In other cases, he might just be giving a Sunday sermon to those in his chapel, opining on the papal plane, giving interviews to Scalfari, or making some changes to how the Diocese of Rome works.  But when he addresses a teaching to the Universal Church, typically the demarcation has been in an Encyclical Letter or above ... where it's clearly addressed to the entire Church, not when he's giving a long-winded speculative speech to a group of midwives (as the dogmatic SVs have exaggerated infallibility to include).

With such teachings, addressing the Universal Church, religious assent is required, but religious assent has been misdefined and misunderstood as being tantamount to internally believing as if it were infallible truth, every such teaching that does not meet the notes of infallibility ... making it so that the SVs have effectively made every sentence in Pius XII's Allocution to Midwives become for all intents and purposes the same as a Solemn Dogmatic Definition.

That's because both sides are missing the forest for the trees, arguing about strict infallibility when it's more about broader indefectibility ... and infallible safety.  R&R reduce the protection of the Holy Ghost over papal teaching to a handful of dogmas, and the rest can turn to complete garbage ... whereas SVs counter by claiming that pretty much every time the pope passes wind (even if not from his mouth), he's infallible.  While the SVs claim to follow pre-V2 teaching, they cannot cite a single theologian who extends infallibility as far as they do.  So the quibbling goes on.

Where the line is draw is that ... if you find that you must sever Communion with the hierarchy because you don't even feel that they have the same religion you do, where you realize that in order to remain a faithful Catholic and save your soul, you must refuse submission to that hierarchy, its teaching, and its Public Worship ... as well as to its law / universal discipline, and ignore the vast majority of their "saints" (and their cultus) ... that line has been crossed where that's clearly contrary to the Promises of Christ to protect the Papacy.  Period.  Now, you could try to make various assertions about how maybe they're blackmailed or "suspended" due to heresy, or lacking formal authority, or just non-popes simpliciter due to Siri (my position) ... but there's no reason to throw out Christ's Promises for the Papacy just to avoid this eeeeevil of sedevacantism.  As I said, you could even avoid SVism if you hate it that bad by claiming that these popes are blackmailed and not acting freely.  I doubt it's true, but you would not be trying to keep the faith ... by throwing the very core of it under the bus to save the Modernists.

Yes, the purpose of the True Pope is to uphold the True Faith. His purpose is to insure that Catholic does not "defect from the Faith." By following the true Roman Pontiff's teachings, we are assured of that our Faith will be an indefectible Faith. He is a means to an end. He is not the end itself. Keeping the Faith and Obeying God is the ultimate end.

Here is the key quote from Pastor Aeternus that says that:

6. For the Holy Spirit was promised to the successors of Peter not so that they might, by his revelation, make known some new doctrine, but that, by his assistance, they might religiously guard and faithfully expound the revelation or deposit of faith transmitted by the apostles. Indeed, their apostolic teaching was embraced by all the venerable fathers and reverenced and followed by all the holy orthodox doctors, for they knew very well that this See of St. Peter always remains unblemished by any error, in accordance with the divine promise of our Lord and Savior to the prince of his disciples: "I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail; and when you have turned again, strengthen your brethren."

7. This gift of truth and never-failing faith was therefore divinely conferred on Peter and his successors in this See so that they might discharge their exalted office for the salvation of all, and so that the whole flock of Christ might be kept away by them from the poisonous food of error and be nourished with the sustenance of heavenly doctrine. Thus the tendency to schism is removed and the whole Church is preserved in unity, and, resting on its foundation, can stand firm against the gates of hell.

Again, we don't worship the true Papacy or the true Church for its own sake. They are both the means of Salvation precisely because they were instituted by Christ to keep us on the right path. We follow a papal claimant as long as he "religiously guards and faithfully expounds" the True Faith. If a papal claimant introduces "new doctrine," then we can be sure that he is not the the true Pope.

But as Ladislaus said, there is a tendency with many traditionalists to think that every statement of a papal claimant must be held to be infallible and if he says something that sounds "new" then he is a "heretic." That is the root of everyone's disagreements. Not all errors are heresies. And judging a papal claimant to not be a "heretic" because he has erred in some prudential matter is the reason for many of the disagreements.



Offline TomGubbinsKimmage

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Hey guys can we stay on topic please

Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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Hey guys can we stay on topic please

Sorry, bud.  It looks like everyone forgot about you.


Offline Ladislaus

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Hey guys can we stay on topic please

Well, I think we've all agreed that you're a heretic, so we've moved on ... :laugh1:

Offline Stubborn

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6. For the Holy Spirit was promised to the successors of Peter not so that they might, by his revelation, make known some new doctrine, but that, by his assistance, they might religiously guard and faithfully expound the revelation or deposit of faith transmitted by the apostles.

  If a papal claimant introduces "new doctrine," then we can be sure that he is not the the true Pope. 
No Angelus, what we can be absolutely sure of, per your quote from V1 in your item #6 above, is that there is no Divine Protection if/when the pope preaches a "new doctrine"i.e. heresy. We are certain of this because that's what it says.

Also per #6, as long as the pope is guarding and expounding Catholic truths, the Holy Ghost assists him. Which is to say that there is no divine assistance at all if/when popes preach new doctrines or promulgate errors.

What it does not say, imply, or otherwise suggest anywhere, is  that a true pope cannot preach new doctrines i.e. heresies, or that a pope cannot *not* safeguard Catholic truths. 
"But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

Offline Angelus

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No Angelus, what we can be absolutely sure of, per your quote from V1 in your item #6 above, is that there is no Divine Protection if/when the pope preaches a "new doctrine"i.e. heresy. We are certain of this because that's what it says.

Also per #6, as long as the pope is guarding and expounding Catholic truths, the Holy Ghost assists him. Which is to say that there is no divine assistance at all if/when popes preach new doctrines or promulgate errors.

What it does not say, imply, or otherwise suggest anywhere, is that a true pope cannot preach new doctrines i.e. heresies, or that a pope cannot *not* safeguard Catholic truths.


A true Pope is prevented by the Holy Spirit from teaching actual "heresies," as the Church defines the term. A true Pope is not prevented by the Holy Spirit from making errors in disciplinary matters or prudential matters in general.

Interestingly, at Mass today (the Feast of St. Josephat), the readings pertain to what we are discussing. The passages explain that the High Priest, the Pope, is "compassed with infirmity." And the Good Shepherd is the one who does not "flieth" when "the wolf catcheth and scattereth the sheep." So, the Pope is not perfect. We should not expect him to be. He is human. But he will not defect from the true Faith. That is dogmatically guaranteed by Pastor Aeternus.

Hebrews 5:1-6
1 For every high priest taken from among men, is ordained for men in the things that appertain to God, that he may offer up gifts and sacrifices for sins:  2 Who can have compassion on them that are ignorant and that err: because he himself also is compassed with infirmity.  3 And therefore he ought, as for the people, so also for himself, to offer for sins.  4 Neither doth any man take the honour to himself, but he that is called by God, as Aaron was.  5 So Christ also did not glorify himself, that he might be made a high priest: but he that said unto him: Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. 6 As he saith also in another place: Thou art a priest for ever, according to the order of Melchisedech.

Gospel of John 10:11-16
11 I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd giveth his life for his sheep.  12 But the hireling, and he that is not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and flieth: and the wolf catcheth, and scattereth the sheep:  13 And the hireling flieth, because he is a hireling: and he hath no care for the sheep.  14 I am the good shepherd; and I know mine, and mine know me.  15 As the Father knoweth me, and I know the Father: and I lay down my life for my sheep. 16 And other sheep I have, that are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice, and there shall be one fold and one shepherd.



Offline Ladislaus

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A true Pope is not prevented by the Holy Spirit from making errors in disciplinary matters or prudential matters in general.

You fail to make a distinction.  Indeed, the Pope is prevented by the Holy Spirit from making errors in disciplinary matters that affect the entire Church.  This has been the result of many decades of SSPX gaslighting and denying the disciplinary infallibility of the Church.

It is absolutely false that a legiitmate Pope can promulgate a form of Public Worship, and Rite of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, that is offensive to God and harmful to souls.  It is also absolutely false that the Pope can make errors in matters such as canonizations and in the general Canon Law of the Universal Church, even if he can make errors in laws affecting certain parts of the Church or certain individuals.

Offline Angelus

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You fail to make a distinction.  Indeed, the Pope is prevented by the Holy Spirit from making errors in disciplinary matters that affect the entire Church.  This has been the result of many decades of SSPX gaslighting and denying the disciplinary infallibility of the Church.

It is absolutely false that a legiitmate Pope can promulgate a form of Public Worship, and Rite of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, that is offensive to God and harmful to souls.  It is also absolutely false that the Pope can make errors in matters such as canonizations and in the general Canon Law of the Universal Church, even if he can make errors in laws affecting certain parts of the Church or certain individuals.

I agree. I think the Sacraments are a special case. Bottom line, IMO: God allowed a parallel set of Sacraments to be rolled out (illegally without full papal approval) precisely to separate the wheat from the chaff in the end times. God allowed that deception for His own reasons. And the outlines of this situation and its justification can be found the in the Parable of the Wheat and the Cockle. The Cockle loved the new false sacraments. Those people will be the harvest of Satan, unfortunately.

That is not what I meant by disciplinary matters. By disciplinary matters I meant a Pope's failure to maintain proper discipline by not removing bad bishops and Cardinals and failing to be crystal clear on which kinds of new practices were unacceptable, like communion in the hand.