Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: todays Jєωs are the Jєωs of the Old Covenant?  (Read 3069 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Geremia

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4120
  • Reputation: +1259/-259
  • Gender: Male
    • St. Isidore e-book library
todays Jєωs are the Jєωs of the Old Covenant?
« on: December 02, 2013, 10:50:57 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Looking back on Evangelli Gaudium, he says today's Jєωs are the Jєωs of the Old Covenant. How can that be true if the Old Covenent no longer exists today? ???
    St. Isidore e-book library: https://isidore.co/calibre


    Offline Cantarella

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 7782
    • Reputation: +4577/-579
    • Gender: Female
    todays Jєωs are the Jєωs of the Old Covenant?
    « Reply #1 on: December 02, 2013, 11:05:42 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Today's Jєωs cannot possibly be the Jєωs of the Old Covenant since they are not longer the chosen people of God.

    In the New Covenant, only Catholics are the chosen people of God. That is, God's Elect.
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.


    Offline GottmitunsAlex

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 390
    • Reputation: +438/-40
    • Gender: Male
      • Youtube
    todays Jєωs are the Jєωs of the Old Covenant?
    « Reply #2 on: December 02, 2013, 11:09:32 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Cantarella
    Today's Jєωs cannot possibly be the Jєωs of the Old Covenant since they are not longer the chosen people of God.

    In the New Covenant, only Catholics are the chosen people of God. That is, God's Elect.


    End of story.
    "As the head of the Church, I cannot answer you otherwise: The Jєωs have not recognized Our Lord; therefore we cannot recognize the Jєωιѕн people." -Pope St. Pius X

    "No Jєω adores God! Who say so?  The Son of God say so."

    Offline Geremia

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4120
    • Reputation: +1259/-259
    • Gender: Male
      • St. Isidore e-book library
    todays Jєωs are the Jєωs of the Old Covenant?
    « Reply #3 on: December 03, 2013, 03:15:26 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • So, it isn't as wrong to say the Jєωs' "covenant with God has never been revoked" as it is to refer to modern-day Jєωs as "the people of the Old Covenant"?
    St. Isidore e-book library: https://isidore.co/calibre

    Offline Capt McQuigg

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 4671
    • Reputation: +2624/-10
    • Gender: Male
    todays Jєωs are the Jєωs of the Old Covenant?
    « Reply #4 on: December 03, 2013, 03:20:58 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • It is really irrelevant whether today's Jєωs are the same Jєωs as the ones in the Old Testament.  If you deny Christ, you are denying God and that means you do not belong to God, nor Christ's Kingdom.  The Jєωs, by rejecting Christ, are lost souls on the path to total destruction at the Particular and then the General Judgement.  

    Jєωs must embrace Our Lord and renounce their perfidious ways.  

    We just can't play patty-cakes with this stuff and I think the post-Vatican II wishy-washyness regarding other religions is the strongest possible evidence that the post-Vatican II church is a counterfeit church.


    Offline Geremia

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4120
    • Reputation: +1259/-259
    • Gender: Male
      • St. Isidore e-book library
    todays Jєωs are the Jєωs of the Old Covenant?
    « Reply #5 on: December 03, 2013, 03:39:50 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Capt McQuigg
    It is really irrelevant whether today's Jєωs are the same Jєωs as the ones in the Old Testament.
    good point

    But when St. Paul says all the Jєωs will convert (Rom. 11:26: "All Israel should be saved…"), who exactly is he saying will convert? "[T]hem that say they are Jєωs and are not, but are the ѕуηαgσgυє of Satan" (Apoc. 2:9)? Those who are "Jєωs by the flesh"? Or simply those who are neither Catholic nor gentile?

    Also, "Israel" in Rom. 11:26 can't mean the Catholic Church, can it? Not everyone in the Church will be saved, will they? Or does "Israel" here mean "Jєωs by the flesh" + the members of the Catholic Church? Or does it simply mean the Catholic Church?
    St. Isidore e-book library: https://isidore.co/calibre

    Offline Anthony Benedict

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 533
    • Reputation: +510/-4
    • Gender: Male
    todays Jєωs are the Jєωs of the Old Covenant?
    « Reply #6 on: December 03, 2013, 03:56:17 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • The only "identity" Jєωs today have is cultural.

    Most of them are total secularists and a few have some sentimentality and even far fewer actually try to "live" some form of "religion", which is just as man-made today, at least under rabbinical application, as it was in the time of Christ.

    Various recent papal comments suffering from "Rodney King Syndrome" (i.e., "why can't we all just get along?") notwithstanding, the only honest evaluation of the forlorn state of "Jєωs" today come from people like the late Israel Shahak who had all the street cred necessary to tell it like it is-

    . he was interned in a nαzι cσncєnтrαтισn cαмρ and survived

    . he joined the Israeli army

    . he rose to professional status in Israel


    http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/Jєωhis.htm


    As the Church has done since Her beginning, we must continue to pray for the conversion of the Jєωs.

    Offline LoverOfTradition

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 318
    • Reputation: +179/-1
    • Gender: Female
    todays Jєωs are the Jєωs of the Old Covenant?
    « Reply #7 on: December 03, 2013, 04:51:34 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • The Jєωs are responsible for the death of Christ and have always been enemies of Holy Mother Church.


    Offline Geremia

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4120
    • Reputation: +1259/-259
    • Gender: Male
      • St. Isidore e-book library
    todays Jєωs are the Jєωs of the Old Covenant?
    « Reply #8 on: December 03, 2013, 04:57:54 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: LoverOfTradition
    The Jєωs are responsible for the death of Christ and have always been enemies of Holy Mother Church.
    Except for those who "knew not what they were doing," which was all the Jєωs except the Jєωιѕн leaders, who knew full well they were committing deicide.
    St. Isidore e-book library: https://isidore.co/calibre

    Offline Geremia

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4120
    • Reputation: +1259/-259
    • Gender: Male
      • St. Isidore e-book library
    todays Jєωs are the Jєωs of the Old Covenant?
    « Reply #9 on: December 03, 2013, 05:16:48 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Anthony Benedict
    The only "identity" Jєωs today have is cultural.
    So, St. Paul most likely means all the biological seed of Abraham will convert in the end times? Yet, this doesn't seem to agree with Romans 9:6: "all are not Israelites that are [biologically] of Israel."

    How does the Church determine who is a Jєω? Is a Jєω nowadays simply whoever claims to be a Jєω?
    St. Isidore e-book library: https://isidore.co/calibre

    Offline Sigismund

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 5386
    • Reputation: +3121/-44
    • Gender: Male
    todays Jєωs are the Jєωs of the Old Covenant?
    « Reply #10 on: December 03, 2013, 09:36:33 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Geremia
    So, it isn't as wrong to say the Jєωs' "covenant with God has never been revoked" as it is to refer to modern-day Jєωs as "the people of the Old Covenant"?


    The Old Covenant was not revoked.  It was fulfilled.  Whichever term you prefer, however, it is not in force now.  
    Stir up within Thy Church, we beseech Thee, O Lord, the Spirit with which blessed Josaphat, Thy Martyr and Bishop, was filled, when he laid down his life for his sheep: so that, through his intercession, we too may be moved and strengthen by the same Spir


    Offline RomanCatholic1953

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 10512
    • Reputation: +3267/-207
    • Gender: Male
    • I will not respond to any posts from Poche.
    todays Jєωs are the Jєωs of the Old Covenant?
    « Reply #11 on: December 03, 2013, 10:03:39 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Marylyn Monroe was in the process in converting to  Judaism
    at the time she committed ѕυιcιdє in 1962.
    A good expose in the matter is to hear the talk of Bishop Williamson
    in Stockholm, Sweden in 2008.  His talk can be found on YouTube.
    He said that today's Jєωs, the majority are not of middle eastern decent, using the word Semitic correctly.
    Today's Jєωs are filled with the spirit of the Pharisees because of their
    hatred of Jesus Christ and Christianity. They are very difficult to
    convert. However, he said that the Jєωs will be converted at the end
    of the world.  

    Offline InfiniteFaith

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1590
    • Reputation: +167/-2
    • Gender: Male
    todays Jєωs are the Jєωs of the Old Covenant?
    « Reply #12 on: December 03, 2013, 10:36:15 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Geremia
    Quote from: Anthony Benedict
    The only "identity" Jєωs today have is cultural.
    So, St. Paul most likely means all the biological seed of Abraham will convert in the end times? Yet, this doesn't seem to agree with Romans 9:6: "all are not Israelites that are [biologically] of Israel."

    How does the Church determine who is a Jєω? Is a Jєω nowadays simply whoever claims to be a Jєω?


    From my understanding, only some of the Jєωs today are truly God's chosen people. These Jєωs are real descendants of the 12 tribes of Israel. God established an everlasting covenant, in the Old Testament, with these particular people. When they go to heaven they are to be judges of nearly everyone else. The reason why God granted them a higher status (if they make it to heaven) is because of all the sacrifice and persecution that the Old Testament Jєωs had to go through. Nowadays, the descendants of the Ancient Israelites must convert to Catholicism in order to maintain their status of "God's chosen people". We know they are still God's chosen people today because this particular covenant in the Old Testament was an everlasting covenant. Thus it still applies.

    Furthermore, not all Jєωs today are truly descendants of the ancient Israelites. The αѕнкenαzι's claim they are, but there is no genetic correlation there. They are probably not real descendants. Rather of russian descent. Which means that less than half the Jєωs today could possibly be true descendants.

    The Jєωs are going to say that you must be Jєωιѕн in order to receive the promises of the everlasting covenant. This is not true. It is more along the lines that you must be descendants of the tribes of Israel or apart of the Israelite race.

    It is very possible that many people today, whether they realize it or not, are descendants of the tribes of Israel. It does say in the Old Testament that God will make all nations descendants of Abraham. Which would mean we are all related. I see that already happening. Mexicans are typically part caucasian along with South Americans and pretty much every other race of people out there. I really think that God used europeans to accomplish the task of making every nation descendants of Abraham.

    Offline InfiniteFaith

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1590
    • Reputation: +167/-2
    • Gender: Male
    todays Jєωs are the Jєωs of the Old Covenant?
    « Reply #13 on: December 03, 2013, 10:46:00 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Sigismund
    Quote from: Geremia
    So, it isn't as wrong to say the Jєωs' "covenant with God has never been revoked" as it is to refer to modern-day Jєωs as "the people of the Old Covenant"?


    The Old Covenant was not revoked.  It was fulfilled.  Whichever term you prefer, however, it is not in force now.  


    There were everlasting covenants in the Old Testament that still apply today.

    Offline Anthony Benedict

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 533
    • Reputation: +510/-4
    • Gender: Male
    todays Jєωs are the Jєωs of the Old Covenant?
    « Reply #14 on: December 04, 2013, 11:26:50 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Geremia
    Quote from: Anthony Benedict
    The only "identity" Jєωs today have is cultural.
    So, St. Paul most likely means all the biological seed of Abraham will convert in the end times? Yet, this doesn't seem to agree with Romans 9:6: "all are not Israelites that are [biologically] of Israel."

    How does the Church determine who is a Jєω? Is a Jєω nowadays simply whoever claims to be a Jєω?


    A more explicit rendition of the consideration might have been "The most common means of identification by which Jєωs are distinguished is cultural." A mea culpa for my imprecision.

    I would suggest consulting Jєωιѕн sources for whom they consider to be Jєωs and under what circuмstances they accept "converts".

    It's been more than 40 years since I took courses in New Testament theology under the Jesuits and I am too rusty to hanker a guess at the interpretation of the passage from Romans. So, these days, I rely on sound commentaries, like this one from Haydock:

    "Ver. 6-7. Not as though the word of God hath failed in his promises made to Abraham, and the patriarchs. The Jєωs pretended that the promises were made to them only, and to those that were of their race, and that the Gentiles were not to partake of them. St. Paul shews them their mistake, by telling them who are to be esteemed the true children of Abraham, and of the patriarchs, according to the promises which God made, and who are not. (Witham) --- All are not Israelites, &c. Not all, who are the carnal seed of Israel, are true Israelites in God's account: who, as by his free grace he heretofore preferred Isaac before Ismael, and Jacob before Esau, so he could, and did by the like free grace, election, and mercy, raise up spiritual children by faith to Abraham and Israel, from among the Gentiles, and prefer them before the carnal Jєωs. (Challoner) --- Neither are all they, who are of the seed of Abraham, his true spiritual children, to whom these promises were made: nor are all they who are descended from Isaac the children of these promises nor are all they true Israelites, to whom these blessings were promised, although they are descended from Israel; but only they who are the children of the patriarchs by faith in Jesus, the Messias, in whom God promised that he would bless all nations. (Witham)

    http://haydock1859.tripod.com/

    I hope those responses are helpful.