Author Topic: To Sedes: Time's Running Out to Elect a New Pope!!!  (Read 2260 times)

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Offline Durango77

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Re: To Sedes: Time's Running Out to Elect a New Pope!!!
« Reply #75 on: February 23, 2021, 01:53:57 PM »
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  • Mispost.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: To Sedes: Time's Running Out to Elect a New Pope!!!
    « Reply #76 on: February 23, 2021, 03:14:50 PM »
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  • No, R&R do not claim we that we can bypass the very magisterium (teachings) that is our rule of faith.

    Yeah, yeah, I know, you have redefined Magisterium into a tautology, where the "false" teachings of the papal claimants are not actually Magisterium.  If it's true, then it's Magisterium; if it's false, then it's not.

    :facepalm:
    Vigano for Pope !!!


    Offline Mirari Vos

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    Re: To Sedes: Time's Running Out to Elect a New Pope!!!
    « Reply #77 on: February 23, 2021, 03:43:24 PM »
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  • Yeah, yeah, I know, you have redefined Magisterium into a tautology, where the "false" teachings of the papal claimants are not actually Magisterium.  If it's true, then it's Magisterium; if it's false, then it's not.

    :facepalm:
    The definition of circular reasoning.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: To Sedes: Time's Running Out to Elect a New Pope!!!
    « Reply #78 on: February 23, 2021, 03:54:46 PM »
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  • Yeah, yeah, I know, you have redefined Magisterium into a tautology, where the "false" teachings of the papal claimants are not actually Magisterium.  If it's true, then it's Magisterium; if it's false, then it's not.

    :facepalm:
    Wrong yet again.
    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man." - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Walters

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    Re: To Sedes: Time's Running Out to Elect a New Pope!!!
    « Reply #79 on: February 23, 2021, 09:30:09 PM »
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  • So are you a follower of Drew?

    I just read through some of Drews posts.  He affirms one truth but denies another.  Dogmas are the material rule of faith - since they are the material object of faith - but the infallible authority of the Church is the formal rule, or at least the proximate formal rule.

    The formal object of the remote rule of faith is God the Revealer; the material object of the remote rule are all the truths God has publicly revealed, as contained in Scripture and Tradition.

    God the Revealer is who we believe by faith; dogmas are what we believe by faith; and the infallible authority of the Divinely instituted Teacher of revealed truths is why we believe them by faith.


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: To Sedes: Time's Running Out to Elect a New Pope!!!
    « Reply #80 on: February 24, 2021, 05:47:34 AM »
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  • I just read through some of Drews posts.  He affirms one truth but denies another.  Dogmas are the material rule of faith - since they are the material object of faith - but the infallible authority of the Church is the formal rule, or at least the proximate formal rule.

    The formal object of the remote rule of faith is God the Revealer; the material object of the remote rule are all the truths God has publicly revealed, as contained in Scripture and Tradition.

    God the Revealer is who we believe by faith; dogmas are what we believe by faith; and the infallible authority of the Divinely instituted Teacher of revealed truths is why we believe them by faith.
    Agree 100%, as long as it is understood that here, it is the Church that is the Divinely instituted Teacher, not the pope. The pope(s) is the authority whose duty it is to defend, preserve and promulge all those teachings revealed from God the Revealer and not the originator of the revealed truths.

    What is most often denied or forgotten in all of this is that Christ and the Church are one, they are one and the same. I believe this is one of the sticking points to the idea that the pope is the rule of faith as it does not differentiate between the pope and the Church, or the pope and God (the Revealer). If it could actually be that the pope and the Church are one and the same, then the idea  that the pope is the rule of faith might have some merit.  

    My edit of your second paragraph above....
    "The formal object of the remote rule of faith is God the Revealer; the material object of the remote rule are all the truths God has publicly revealed through the Church, as contained in Scripture and Tradition".








    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man." - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: To Sedes: Time's Running Out to Elect a New Pope!!!
    « Reply #81 on: February 24, 2021, 05:52:52 AM »
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  • I just read through some of Drews posts.  He affirms one truth but denies another.  Dogmas are the material rule of faith - since they are the material object of faith - but the infallible authority of the Church is the formal rule, or at least the proximate formal rule.

    The formal object of the remote rule of faith is God the Revealer; the material object of the remote rule are all the truths God has publicly revealed, as contained in Scripture and Tradition.

    God the Revealer is who we believe by faith; dogmas are what we believe by faith; and the infallible authority of the Divinely instituted Teacher of revealed truths is why we believe them by faith.

    Thank you.  We went 30 pages [probably more, I can't recall exactly] trying to argue this very point with Drew.  You sum it up nicely.
    Vigano for Pope !!!

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: To Sedes: Time's Running Out to Elect a New Pope!!!
    « Reply #82 on: February 24, 2021, 05:54:22 AM »
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  • Agree 100%, as long as it is understood that here, it is the Church that is the Divinely instituted Teacher, not the pope.

    :facepalm:

    Vatican I teaches otherwise.

    So NOW you "agree", after rejecting my having said the very same thing.  Of course, then you slap on that non-Catholic (aka heretical) qualifier.

    Vatican I: Pastor Aeternus
    Quote
    And so, supported by the clear witness of Holy Scripture, and adhering to the manifest and explicit decrees both of our predecessors the Roman Pontiffs and of general councils, we promulgate anew the definition of the ecumenical Council of Florence, which must be believed by all faithful Christians, namely that the "holy Apostolic See and the Roman Pontiff hold a world-wide primacy, and that the Roman Pontiff is the successor of blessed Peter, the prince of the apostles, true vicar of Christ, head of the whole Church and father and teacher of all Christian people. To him, in blessed Peter, full power has been given by our lord Jesus Christ to tend, rule and govern the universal Church. All this is to be found in the acts of the ecumenical councils and the sacred canons."
    ...
    That apostolic primacy which the Roman Pontiff possesses as successor of Peter, the prince of the apostles, includes also the supreme power of teaching.
    ...
    Then there is the definition of the Council of Florence: "The Roman Pontiff is the true vicar of Christ, the head of the whole Church and the father and teacher of all Christians; and to him was committed in blessed Peter, by our lord Jesus Christ, the full power of tending, ruling and governing the whole Church."
    ...
    [T]heir [the Popes'] apostolic teaching was embraced by all the venerable fathers and reverenced and followed by all the holy orthodox doctors, for they knew very well that this See of St. Peter always remains unblemished by any error, in accordance with the divine promise of our Lord and Savior to the prince of his disciples: "I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail; and when you have turned again, strengthen your brethren."

    So your opinion is heretical, the assertion that the Pope is not "the Divinely Instituted Teacher".

    Note also the last part which states that the See of Peter remains "unblemished by any error".  Good luck with that one, Stubborn.

    This further backs up my repeated assertion that your ecclesiology is nothing short of heretical.
    Vigano for Pope !!!


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: To Sedes: Time's Running Out to Elect a New Pope!!!
    « Reply #83 on: February 24, 2021, 06:11:27 AM »
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  • Can any R&R Catholic affirm with a straight face the teaching of Vatican I that the Holy See "remains unblemished by any error" after the disaster of Vatican II and the entire post-Vatican II Magisterium, including Amoris Laetitia?

    THIS is the argument for sedevacantism, that this degree of error and corruption in the Magisterium is incompatible with the promises of Our Lord.  THIS is the truth that Archbishop Lefebvre CLEARLY affirmed in that audio that was posted.  Unfortunately, MOST modern R&R rejects it and is basically heretical on that account [I make exceptions for a position like that of Fr. Chazal or that articulated by the Archbishop himself].
    Vigano for Pope !!!

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: To Sedes: Time's Running Out to Elect a New Pope!!!
    « Reply #84 on: February 24, 2021, 06:51:16 AM »
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  • :facepalm:

    Vatican I teaches otherwise.

    So NOW you "agree", after rejecting my having said the very same thing.  Of course, then you slap on that non-Catholic (aka heretical) qualifier.

    Vatican I: Pastor Aeternus
    So your opinion is heretical, the assertion that the Pope is not "the Divinely Instituted Teacher".

    Note also the last part which states that the See of Peter remains "unblemished by any error".  Good luck with that one, Stubborn.

    This further backs up my repeated assertion that your ecclesiology is nothing short of heretical.
    No one has ever denied the pope is the teacher, your problem is that you believe him to be the originator of teachings. Sorry for snuffing out your "ah ha" moment.
    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man." - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: To Sedes: Time's Running Out to Elect a New Pope!!!
    « Reply #85 on: February 24, 2021, 06:59:46 AM »
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  • Can any R&R Catholic affirm with a straight face the teaching of Vatican I that the Holy See "remains unblemished by any error" after the disaster of Vatican II and the entire post-Vatican II Magisterium, including Amoris Laetitia?

    THIS is the argument for sedevacantism, that this degree of error and corruption in the Magisterium is incompatible with the promises of Our Lord.  THIS is the truth that Archbishop Lefebvre CLEARLY affirmed in that audio that was posted.  Unfortunately, MOST modern R&R rejects it and is basically heretical on that account [I make exceptions for a position like that of Fr. Chazal or that articulated by the Archbishop himself].
    I can affirm it. Why? Because the Holy Ghost was promised to the successors of St. Peter whenever they define a doctrine ex cathedra - if you don't read the whole thing in context, you'll end up thinking it means, as you demonstrate, something it does not say.

    That is the argument for sedeism? Then they have no argument.

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man." - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: To Sedes: Time's Running Out to Elect a New Pope!!!
    « Reply #86 on: February 24, 2021, 07:41:59 AM »
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  • No one has ever denied the pope is the teacher, your problem is that you believe him to be the originator of teachings. Sorry for snuffing out your "ah ha" moment.

    :facepalm:

    quote from Stubborn:
    Quote
    it is the Church that is the Divinely instituted Teacher, not the pope.

    With this sentence you are saying:  "the pope is not the Divinely Instituted Teacher".
    Vigano for Pope !!!

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: To Sedes: Time's Running Out to Elect a New Pope!!!
    « Reply #87 on: February 24, 2021, 07:42:48 AM »
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  • I can affirm it. Why? Because the Holy Ghost was promised to the successors of St. Peter whenever they define a doctrine ex cathedra - if you don't read the whole thing in context, you'll end up thinking it means, as you demonstrate, something it does not say.

    That is the argument for sedeism? Then they have no argument.

    You make a bigger fool of yourself with every post.  Your ecclesiology is heretical.
    Vigano for Pope !!!

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: To Sedes: Time's Running Out to Elect a New Pope!!!
    « Reply #88 on: February 24, 2021, 08:08:08 AM »
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  • You make a bigger fool of yourself with every post.  Your ecclesiology is heretical.
    You are ridiculous. I mean honestly, you confound your own belief by being a sede. Talk about confused.

    The pope, being your rule of faith, is according to you always infallibly safe to follow, except when he errs, then he is not pope at all. But it is my ecclesiology that is heretical. :facepalm:  
    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man." - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: To Sedes: Time's Running Out to Elect a New Pope!!!
    « Reply #89 on: February 24, 2021, 08:14:01 AM »
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  • :facepalm:

    quote from Stubborn: it is the Church that is the Divinely instituted Teacher, not the pope.
    With this sentence you are saying:  "the pope is not the Divinely Instituted Teacher".
    Since you have nothing else, resorting to calumny as per your usual, I understand you will never comprehend the truth, but I said:
    "The pope(s) is the authority whose duty it is to defend, preserve and promulgate all those teachings..."
    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man." - Fr. Hesse


     

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