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Author Topic: To Sedes: Time's Running Out to Elect a New Pope!!!  (Read 9964 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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Re: To Sedes: Time's Running Out to Elect a New Pope!!!
« Reply #35 on: February 22, 2021, 08:30:58 AM »
Nonsense, Walters.  Only some dogmatic sedevacantists hold that "anything a Pope says is necessarily infallibly safe."  What infallible safety basically means, however, and this is corroborated by a lot of Papal Magisterium, is that overall and, as a whole, the Magisterium cannot go badly off the rails on a substantial issue.  Here is Msgr. Fenton's articulation of infallible safety.  When Traditional Catholics claim that the Magisterium and Universal Discipline of the Church are so badly mistaken that we are effectively forced to sever communion with the putative hierarchy, then it's crossed the line.  You're setting up fake strawman and yourself misunderstanding infallible safety.  Infallible safety follows necessarily from the notion that the Church is indefectible in her mission.

Msgr. Fenton:

To the Holy Father’s responsibility of caring for the sheep of Christ’s fold, there corresponds, on the part of the Church’s membership, the basic obligation of following his directions, in doctrinal as well as disciplinary matters. In this field, God has given the Holy Father a kind of infallibility distinct from the charism of doctrinal infallibility in the strict sense. He has so constructed and ordered the Church that those who follow the directives given to the entire kingdom of God on earth will never be brought into the position of ruining themselves spiritually through this obedience.
Now that we all know this, who among us will be the first to abandon the true faith for the new faith?

Re: To Sedes: Time's Running Out to Elect a New Pope!!!
« Reply #36 on: February 22, 2021, 08:51:14 AM »
The difference is that the SSPX admits they believe violating a law promulgated by a Pope is permitted in circuмstances circuмstances, such as the present crisis. The sedevacantists insist that it is not permitted, and then do it anyway.  
LOL, that's a good real world example of "the pot calling the kettle black". That's funny. No insult intended. Maybe because I am a spectator on the sidelines I see it for what it is?

I don't follow these threads on RR vs Sede vs N.O. indult, but I assume what is going on here is that the sedes are calling the SSPX hypocrites for accepting the pope and then disregarding him to consecrate bishops, and the SSPX is calling the sedes hypocrites for consecrating bishop when they teach that you can't do that. Anyhow, the sedes believe there is no pope and so they can consecrate bishops.


Re: To Sedes: Time's Running Out to Elect a New Pope!!!
« Reply #37 on: February 22, 2021, 10:45:58 AM »
God cannot deceive or be deceive, but men can. The Pope is man, not God.  The problem with sedevacantism is that they tend toward deifying the Pope, and then naturally reject any Pope who does not live up to their God-like expectations.  

When you pray the Act of Faith next time, pay attention to the words, it does not say men can be deceived by the Pope, because he is just a man.

It says:  I believe these and all the truths which the Holy Catholic Church teaches because Thou hast revealed them, Who canst neither deceive nor be deceived. Amen.  Vatican II deceives, it is not the Church nor does it contain the four Marks of the Church.  If Francis is a neo-pope from VII, so be it, for VII is not the One, Holy Catholic Church, it does not possess the Marks of the Church and it certainly is deceiving.  

Furthermore:  Regarding the legitimacy of the consecration of traditional Catholic bishops 
by Bishop Mark A. Pivarunas, CMRI
The purpose of this article is to present objective evidence to demonstrate the legitimacy of the consecration of traditional Catholic bishops during this time of an extended interregnum (vacancy of the Holy See) which has occurred since the spiritual devastation caused by the Second Vatican Council. The evidence presented will show the historical precedent for such episcopal consecrations, the distinction between divine law and ecclesiastical law in this realm, and the historical precedent of supplied jurisdiction granted to such bishops.
I. Historical Precedent
During the interregnum from the death of Pope Clement IV on November 29, 1268, to the election of Blessed Gregory X on September 1, 1271, twenty-one vacancies occurred in various dioceses. During this time bishops were consecrated without papal mandate to fill these vacancies because of the spiritual necessity of the faithful and the impossibility of having recourse to the Holy See.
According to the docuмent “Hierarchia Catholica Medii Aevi” by Fr. Conrad Eubel, O.F.M., S.T.D., printed in 1913, the following bishops were elected and consecrated during the period of the above-mentioned vacancy.

 
Diocese of Avranches, France
Radulfus de Thieville 
Consecrated November 1269

Diocese of Aleria, Corsica 
Nicolaus Forteguerra 
Consecrated in 1270

Diocese of Antivari, Greece
Caspar Adam O.P. 
Consecrated in 1270

Diocese of Auxerre, France,
Erardus de Lesinnes 
Consecrated in January 1271

Diocese of Chalons sur Saorie, France
Potius de Sissey
Consecrated in 1269

Diocese of Cagli, Italy,
Jacobus 
Consecrated September 8, 1270

Diocese of Le Mans, France,
Geoffridus d'Ass 
Consecrated in 1270

Diocese of Cefalu, Sicily
Petrus Taurs (Pepers)
Consecrated in 1269

Diocese of Cervia, Italy
Theodoricus Borgognoni, O.P.
Consecrated in 1270

Diocese of Civita Castellana, Italy
Johannes Magnesi O.P.
Consecrated in 1270

Diocese of Evreux, France
Philippus de Chaourse 
Consecrated in February 1270

 
Diocese of Forlimpopoli, Italy
Ravaldinus 
Consecrated in 1270

Diocese of Lismore-Waterford, Ireland
Johannes de Rupe (Roche) 
Consecrated in 1270

Diocese of Lucca, Italy
Paganellus 
Consecrated in 1269

Diocese of St. Jean de Maurienne, France
Petrus de Gualis 
Consecrated in 1270

Diocese of Meaux, France
Johannes de Garlande
Consecrated in 1269

Diocese of Metz, Germany
Laurientius von Leisteberg
Consecrated in 1269

Diocese of Sion, Switzerland
Raudulfus de Valpelline
Consecrated in June, 1271

Diocese of Tolouse, France
Bertandus de Lisle Jourdain
Consecrated October 20, 1270

Diocese of Troyes, France
Johannes de Nanteuil 
Consecrated June of 1269

Diocese of Abril, Spain
Petrus Urg 
Consecrated November 3, 1269

 
Commentary: Some misinformed Catholics have claimed “no pope, no bishops” and have thus rejected those traditional Catholic bishops who have been consecrated during the present crisis in the Church which has followed the Second Vatican Council. During the interregnum between Pope Clement IV and Blessed Gregory X which lasted under three years, bishops were consecrated without a papal mandate. Therefore, a fortiori (from the stronger argument) during this extended interregnum of today, the longest in the history of the Church, bishops can be consecrated for the spiritual needs of the faithful and for the common good of the Catholic Church.
For more about this subject you can on your own time read it here:  https://cmri.org/articles-on-the-traditional-catholic-faith/historical-precedents-supporting-the-consecration-of-bishops-during-vacancy-of-the-holy-see/

Offline Yeti

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Re: To Sedes: Time's Running Out to Elect a New Pope!!!
« Reply #38 on: February 22, 2021, 03:05:54 PM »
All this says is that Catholics should not limit their obedience to their pastors to the acceptance of Catholic dogmas.  Notice that he is not speaking only of the Pope, but to all pastors.    Just as this teaching does not prove that other pastors are unable to error on faith or morals, neither does it prove that a Pope is unable to error in faith or morals when he is not defining a doctrine.
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Fair enough. So do you give obedience to Francis and his pastors even in things that are not a dogma of faith, as this says you must? And we agree that Catholics must accept the teachings of their pastors, even in things that are not dogmas of faith, and not even just to the pope but also to other pastors. So before we even get into the question of whether a pope can err in such a matter, I think it's important to ask if you accept that you owe obedience -- and in fact give such obedience -- to Francis and his teachers in the way described here.
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Once again, this does not say a Pope is unable to error when he is not defining a doctrine.  What this quote is saying is that the magisterium was instituted so that deposit of faith could be perpetually retained by a body of living men, who could present them to men of all ages, and define dogmas when necessary to preserve it from the attacks of heretics.

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Well, to be precise, he is saying the teaching authority of the Church is exercised through the pope and the bishops who are in communion with him. So, if there is no pope at the moment, there can't really be any bishops in communion with the pope anyway. I'm not saying that definitely the case, as there are various opinions on whether that's the case or not and I admit the matter is very obscure, but I can point out as an obvious fact that none of the bishops in the Novus Ordo Church, that I am aware of, uphold the Catholic Faith. And before you say this is impossible, there are numerous theologians that have said the Church can exist for many years without a pope without any violation of the promises Our Lord made to St. Peter. And they said this long before Vatican 2.
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So, my question to you is, where is this teaching authority today?  Where is the body of “bishops who are in communion with” the Roman Pontiff that this papal teaching says will exist forever?

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No, you misread the quote. It says, "For the teaching authority of the Church, which in the divine wisdom was constituted on earth in order that revealed doctrines might remain intact for ever, and that they might be brought with ease and security to the knowledge of men..." It's the revealed doctrines that will remain intact forever. And they have, among traditional Catholics of all kinds, while they have not all remained intact among members of the Novus Ordo Church, who believe in large numbers that abortion, contraception, divorce, etc. are not sins, and many of whom do not believe in transubstantiation, to name just a few examples.
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No where does this say a Pope cannot error in faith or morals when he is not defining a doctrine.  And just as the 72 disciples from Luke 10:16, to whom Jesus said, “He who heareth you, heareth me,” were not infallible, neither is the Pope infallible when he exercises his ordinary teaching authority.

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Okay, so do you accept the encyclical letter Amoris Laetitia, which says that divorced and remarried people can receive Holy Communion? The quote I provided says that you can't say, "I don't have to accept something in an encyclical because the pope is not using the supreme power of his teaching authority."
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All this says is if two Popes issue contradictory directive, the one currently in force is to be obeyed, and cannot be disobeyed in favor of the latter.  What it doesn’t say is that a Pope cannot err in faith or morals when he is not defining a dogma. 
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Well, I don't know exactly what your position is since I don't believe I've discussed stuff like this with you before, but a lot of people say that they need not accept the errors of Vatican 2 popes since they go against what prior popes have taught. This quote says that one may not "set up some kind of opposition between one Pontiff and another. Those who, faced with two differing directives, reject the present one to hold to the past, are not giving proof of obedience to the authority which has the right and duty to guide them."
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To answer your questions as to why sedevacantists go against some provisions of the 1917 code of canon law, in general, there is a principle of law that it does not bind when it becomes harmful to souls. So, Catholics would be deprived of bishops and eventually of priests if they could not consecrate without the permission of the pope, since there isn't any pope to grant that permission, and therefore because of the necessity of having bishops they apply that principle and consecrate bishops to maintain episcopal orders.

Offline Emile

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Re: To Sedes: Time's Running Out to Elect a New Pope!!!
« Reply #39 on: February 22, 2021, 03:14:02 PM »
I agree that such a person should be ignored, and I'm not defending Francis. I am not defending Francis of playing sick mental games. What I am doing is investigating the accusations objectively in order to determine what is true.  
Did Francis approve contraception, as is claimed? Did he intentionally and deceptively make two true statements that gave the impression contraception was permissible, without actually saying it is permissible, which is another possibility?  
Thank you for the clarification W.
That's how modernists and their master operate. For example the serpent in the garden of Eden didn't go up to Adam and Eve and say " Howdy, my name is Satan, and I'm here to try to drag you and your offspring to Hell."
 It's the same with the modernists, they use deception and leave wiggle room in what they say. The words of these people must not be separated from their actions even in a friendly debate.