Author Topic: To Sedes: Time's Running Out to Elect a New Pope!!!  (Read 2550 times)

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Offline XavierSem

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Re: To Sedes: Time's Running Out to Elect a New Pope!!!
« Reply #15 on: February 21, 2021, 08:34:30 AM »
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  • Yes, every salvation effected is always through the Grace given by the Holy Spirit. So if infants baptized by Protestants are saved, as evidently they are, it follows that the Spirit of Christ has indeed not refrained from using the separated communities, in those particular cases, as means of salvation. The efficacy of those means like Baptism is only because of the fullness of grace and salvation entrusted only to the Catholic Church. So we can say the Spirit of Christ uses e.g. Orthodox Priests who also baptize infants as "extraordinary means". The Eastern Churches also give Holy Communion, in both kinds, to freshly baptized and newly chrismated Christian children. So it's certainly possible to interpret those texts within a hermeneutic of continuity, as Pope Benedict XVI asked.

    Now, as for this thread, I'm not mocking anyone. There were sedes, even on this forum, who said the End of the Crisis is guaranteed before the death of the last Pope Pius XII appointed Bishops. Indeed, it would have been, if SVism is true. But that hasn't happened.

    So what now? Those who believe in SVism can just remain without Popes forever? Even in those instances where interregnums were prolonged for mere months, the Cardinals were urged by faithful and others to get their act together and quickly elect a Pope. The Church has always had the conviction that interregna are not meant to last forever, and even in the GWS when there were opposing Papal Claimants to the True Pope, the Church made very strenuous efforts, including gathering in Councils, to end the crisis and get a Pope with UEA. So if SVism is true, where are these efforts today?

    Misereremei, do you have a quote saying any other method is possible? Also, if a few vagrant bishops here and there, without office and jurisdiction, make a declaration, it will not be binding. The sede bishops themselves admit they don't have authority to bind consciences. But if it is not binding, how can a new Pope be elected?

    "Pope Michael" type situations will result. Some will accept. And some won't. That is why the Bishops with Ordinary Jurisdiction, with Formal Authority to bind conscience, the only Judges with Jurisdiction in the Church by divine law apart from the Pope, must take action.

    But they have not. As I argued in another thread citing Fr. Hunter, the unanimous recognition by the Bishops is proof SVism is mistaken.

    Ladislaus, how does Sedeprivationism solve the issue? Heretics cannot appoint Bishops to offices. The Eastern Patriarchs, after they became heretics, as Fr. Gueranger says, lost the authority to appoint Bishops to offices, such that those appointed by them lack authority. If the Popes have all been heretics, wouldn't the same apply to them? Cum Ex also says appointees by heretics lack authority.

    Myrna, as you know, I don't believe in post-1958-sedevacantism. But if I did believe even in post-2013-sedevacantism, e.g. if I believed Pope Francis was invalidly elected, I would be doing everything I could to urge the Cardinals and Bishops to take action to end the crisis.

    If I had believed in post-1958 or 63-year-SVism up to the very point the last Pope Pius XII appointed Bishop died, I would have changed my opinion on it the moment he did.

    How can it be otherwise? I know we will perhaps disagree, but to me the dogma of St. Peter's Perpetual Successors is incompatible with the idea of a sede vacante lasting indefinitely. And yet the idea of an indefinite sede vacante is what some SVs have seemingly resigned themselves to. I am only saying one's actions must be consistent with one's beliefs. If one believes in SVism, one must act accordingly. One must urge those who can Judge - the Bishops with Jurisdiction - to do so. 

    Can anyone show any example of a Church Doctor who envisioned 6+Popes for 60 years being heretics without the Church taking action? Whenever the Doctors discussed the possibility, they spoke of the Church taking action immediately - and certainly within the lifetime of the Pope. Not after 60+ years.

    May God bless and guide us all as we discern how best to remain faithful to Him. May we all live and die as faithful Roman Catholics. Amen.
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    Offline Durango77

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    Re: To Sedes: Time's Running Out to Elect a New Pope!!!
    « Reply #16 on: February 21, 2021, 09:16:54 AM »
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  • Why do you keep asking these questions?  You really think you're gonna convince someone to line up behind Jorge, the guy who ok'd birth control and denied hell?

    "Come out from her my people lest you take share in her sins and recieve of her plagues."


    Offline 54rosary

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    Re: To Sedes: Time's Running Out to Elect a New Pope!!!
    « Reply #17 on: February 21, 2021, 10:20:04 AM »
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  • bergoglio's teaching- lies and deceptions

    Hell
    TEACHING OF the ONE, HOLY, CATHOLIC, and APOSTOLIC CHURCH and TRUTH
    Interview with the Italian newspaper La Repubblica25, Mar 28, 2018: When asked where bad souls are punished, Francis replied: “They are not punished, those who repent obtain the forgiveness of God and enter the rank of souls who contemplate him, but those who do not repent and cannot therefore be forgiven disappear. There is no hell, there is the disappearance of sinful souls.
      
    "Moreover, we declare that according to the common arrangement of God, the souls of those who depart in actual mortal sin immєdιαtely after their death descend to hell where they are tortured by infernal punishments..." Pope Benedict XII, Benedictus Deus, 1336


    Contraception
    In-flight interview from Mexico15, Feb 17, 2016: “The great Paul VI, in a difficult situation in Africa, permitted nuns to use a form of artificial contraceptives in cases of rape.....On the other hand, avoiding pregnancy is not an absolute evil. In certain cases, as in this one (the Zika virus outbreak), or in the one I mentioned of Blessed Paul VI, it was clear.”
      
    "But no reason, however grave, may be put forward by which anything intrinsically against nature may become conformable to nature and morally good. Since, therefore, the conjugal act is destined primarily by nature for the begetting of children, those who in exercising it deliberately frustrate its natural power and purpose sin against nature and commit a deed which is shameful and intrinsically vicious."
     "...any use whatsoever of matrimony exercised in such a way that the act is deliberately frustrated in its natural power to generate life is an offense against the law of God and of nature, and those who indulge in such are branded with the guilt of a grave sin."
     "...No difficulty can arise that justifies the putting aside of the law of God which forbids all acts intrinsically evil." Pope Pius XI, Encyclical On Christian Marriage, Dec 31, 1930
      
     "A negative precept of natural law which prohibits a thing intrinsically evil can never be lawfully transgressed not even under the influence of the fear of death, (Lib. I, tr. ii, c. iv, dub. 2, n. 1) So that it is not lawful to do a thing which is wrong in itself, even to escape death" Catholic Encyclopedia, Hermann Busembaum
      


    Offline MyrnaM

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    Re: To Sedes: Time's Running Out to Elect a New Pope!!!
    « Reply #18 on: February 21, 2021, 10:22:44 AM »
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  • Myrna, as you know, I don't believe in post-1958-sedevacantism. But if I did believe even in post-2013-sedevacantism, e.g. if I believed Pope Francis was invalidly elected, I would be doing everything I could to urge the Cardinals and Bishops to take action to end the crisis.

    If I had believed in post-1958 or 63-year-SVism up to the very point the last Pope Pius XII appointed Bishop died, I would have changed my opinion on it the moment he did.

    How can it be otherwise? I know we will perhaps disagree, but to me the dogma of St. Peter's Perpetual Successors is incompatible with the idea of a sede vacante lasting indefinitely. And yet the idea of an indefinite sede vacante is what some SVs have seemingly resigned themselves to. I am only saying one's actions must be consistent with one's beliefs. If one believes in SVism, one must act accordingly. One must urge those who can Judge - the Bishops with Jurisdiction - to do so.

    Can anyone show any example of a Church Doctor who envisioned 6+Popes for 60 years being heretics without the Church taking action? Whenever the Doctors discussed the possibility, they spoke of the Church taking action immєdιαtely - and certainly within the lifetime of the Pope. Not after 60+ years.

    May God bless and guide us all as we discern how best to remain faithful to Him. May we all live and die as faithful Roman Catholics. Amen.
    All your arguments prove that there is NO TRUE POPE, the Church ( and my definition of Church excludes Vatican II).  The only victory of Vll is it successfully resulted in it being smaller.  The Church began small and perhaps it will remain small in numbers as God told us.

    Luke 18;8 "I say to you, that he will quickly revenge them. But yet the Son of man, when he cometh, shall he find, think you, faith on earth?"  If you care to read a Catholic explanation of that check of the CATHOLIC link https://johnblood.gitlab.io/haydock/id82.html


    It explains also why bother asking Modernists who possess our Vatican to ask them to end the crisis when they like it the way it is.  

    Yes, SVanct are resigned to wait for God to end the crisis, what is wrong with that?   Jesus Christ is the Head of His Church and it is His Will we are separated when the Shepherd is struck the sheep will scatter. The Vicar of Christ has been struck by MODERNIST and the sheep are scattered just as we were warned.  

    God is NOT pleased when someone like you comes along and objects to His flock who are trying to KEEP THE FAITH.   Where does it say, that we all have to become theologians these days, that we all must  know the answer to end this crisis; we must as God said, "WATCH AND PRAY."

    Offline Durango77

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    Re: To Sedes: Time's Running Out to Elect a New Pope!!!
    « Reply #19 on: February 21, 2021, 12:25:27 PM »
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  • Please show where Bergoglio ok'd birth control and denied hell.
    https://www.politico.com/story/2016/02/pope-francis-birth-control-zika-219437
    He ok'd contraception for people in Zika regions.


    Offline Meg

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    Re: To Sedes: Time's Running Out to Elect a New Pope!!!
    « Reply #20 on: February 21, 2021, 01:47:08 PM »
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  • God is NOT pleased when someone like you comes along and objects to His flock who are trying to KEEP THE FAITH.   Where does it say, that we all have to become theologians these days, that we all must  know the answer to end this crisis; we must as God said, "WATCH AND PRAY."

    Did God tell you directly that he is not pleased when someone makes a case against sedeism?
    "This forum is a space for discussion to defend the Catholic Faith following Monsignor Marcel Lefebvre. It is therefore not for rallying to the conciliar church nor for sedevacantism"
    - From the French Resistance forum (Francophone forum, in France)

    Offline MyrnaM

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    Re: To Sedes: Time's Running Out to Elect a New Pope!!!
    « Reply #21 on: February 21, 2021, 03:25:51 PM »
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  • Did God tell you directly that he is not pleased when someone makes a case against sedeism?
    No one has ever made a case against sedevacantism, they condemn what they do not understand because it makes them feel uncomfortable.
    God is certainly not pleased, He speaks to me through the Past Papacy encyclicals, quotes of Saints, Bible, and Traditional prayers such as Act of Fath, a voice that says, CAN NOT DECEIVE NOR BE DECEIVED.  Those who say sedevacantism is not in communion with Rome are like the LEFT in government, they accuse what they themself are guilty of.  

    Offline Durango77

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    Re: To Sedes: Time's Running Out to Elect a New Pope!!!
    « Reply #22 on: February 21, 2021, 03:43:04 PM »
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  • Please show where the Church has ever taught that the Holy Ghost protects a Pope from teaching doctrinal or moral errors when he is not defining a doctrine ex cathedra, according to the precise conditions set forth in chapter IV of Pastor Aeternus.
    I feel like the burden of proof is on you at this point.  You're trying to get us to change our minds.  
    How about this, why don't you post a writing or teaching written by a Pope prior to Vatican ii that contains errors and heresy?  How about post 2 or 3 of these?


    Offline MyrnaM

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    Re: To Sedes: Time's Running Out to Elect a New Pope!!!
    « Reply #23 on: February 21, 2021, 04:29:07 PM »
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  • No, I'm simply trying to determine why he believes a Pope cannot err on matters of faith and morals when he is not defining a doctrine.  
    Because the Church is a DIVINE Institution and Jesus is Head, since it is DIVINE His representative on earth CAN NOT Deceive or be deceived, especially in matters of FAITH and MORALS.  
    If it were a human institution as Protestantism is, their leaders can and do err.  

    Offline Yeti

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    Re: To Sedes: Time's Running Out to Elect a New Pope!!!
    « Reply #24 on: February 21, 2021, 04:40:49 PM »
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  • Please show where the Church has ever taught that the Holy Ghost protects a Pope from teaching doctrinal or moral errors when he is not defining a doctrine ex cathedra, according to the precise conditions set forth in chapter IV of Pastor Aeternus.
    .
    Great question! Here is a page with a lot of quotes from previous popes that teach the nature of the obedience owed to the teachings of the popes. To address your question specifically, here is a quote from Leo XIII, from the encyclical Sapientiae Christianae:

    Quote
    In defining the limits of the obedience owed to the pastors of souls, but most of all to the authority of the Roman Pontiff, it must not be supposed that it is only to be yielded in relation to dogmas of which the obstinate denial cannot be disjoined from the crime of heresy.

    .
    Pope Pius XI stated that the daily teaching of the Church is established by God and brings the truth securely to the minds of men (encyclical Mortalium Animos). The R&R point of view asserts in effect that the daily teaching of the Novus Ordo Church teaches error, despite being the Catholic Church:
    .

    Quote
    For the teaching authority of the Church, which in the divine wisdom was constituted on earth in order that revealed doctrines might remain intact for ever, and that they might be brought with ease and security to the knowledge of men, and which is daily exercised through the Roman Pontiff and the Bishops who are in communion with him, has also the office of defining, when it sees fit, any truth with solemn rites and decrees, whenever this is necessary either to oppose the errors or the attacks of heretics, or more clearly and in greater detail to stamp the minds of the faithful with the articles of sacred doctrine which have been explained.

    .
    Pope Pius XII in Mystic Corporis gave the most direct answer to your question, in which he said that people cannot ignore encyclical letters because they are not the supreme exercise of teaching authority.
    .

    Quote
    [T]his sacred Office of Teacher in matters of faith and morals must be the proximate and universal criterion of truth for all theologians, since to it has been entrusted by Christ Our Lord the whole deposit of faith — Sacred Scripture and divine Tradition — to be preserved, guarded and interpreted…. Nor must it be thought that what is expounded in Encyclical Letters does not of itself demand consent, since in writing such Letters the Popes do not exercise the supreme power of their Teaching Authority. For these matters are taught with the ordinary teaching authority, of which it is true to say: “He who heareth you, heareth me” [Lk 10:16]; and generally what is expounded and inculcated in Encyclical Letters already for other reasons appertains to Catholic doctrine.

    .
    From Leo XIII we also get this quote (from the apostolic letter Epistola Tua) that tells us we cannot set one pope against another, e.g. reject something from "Pope Francis" because it was condemned by a pope of the past:
    .

    Quote
    t is to give proof of a submission which is far from sincere to set up some kind of opposition between one Pontiff and another. Those who, faced with two differing directives, reject the present one to hold to the past, are not giving proof of obedience to the authority which has the right and duty to guide them; and in some ways they resemble those who, on receiving a condemnation, would wish to appeal to a future council, or to a Pope who is better informed.

    .
    It is quotes like the above that lead sedevacantists to conclude that Paul VI and his successors were not and are not true popes, since they do match the description of the papacy given in these quotes and the other quotes on the page I linked.

    Offline Eternal Rome

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    Re: To Sedes: Time's Running Out to Elect a New Pope!!!
    « Reply #25 on: February 21, 2021, 04:51:47 PM »
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  • Pope Leo X
    You will firmly abide by the true decision of the Holy Roman Church and to this Holy See, which does not permit errors.

    (Bull Cum Postquam; Denz. 740b)

    --------------

    I don't know the answer to the current predicament nor do I know how to understand Vatican II and the post-conciliar period. I am "agnostic" on the issue so to speak, but I have observed that many Recognize & Resist Catholics have a theology that has become borderline Gallican. 

    Some dogmatic Sedevacantists on the other hand have extended infallibility to the bedside diaries of theologians.
    You're not an intellectual, you just have internet.


    Offline Durango77

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    Re: To Sedes: Time's Running Out to Elect a New Pope!!!
    « Reply #26 on: February 21, 2021, 07:57:17 PM »
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  • No, I'm simply trying to determine why he believes a Pope cannot err on matters of faith and morals when he is not defining a doctrine.  
    Can you give us some 3xmples of Popes in the 17 and 1800s erring in matters of faith and morals?

    Offline Emile

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    Re: To Sedes: Time's Running Out to Elect a New Pope!!!
    « Reply #27 on: February 22, 2021, 12:11:49 AM »
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  • Please show where Bergoglio ok'd birth control and denied hell.
    I haven't seen anyone address the other side of the coin. Are there any examples of Francis clearly, unambiguously, in word and in action standing for any Catholic teaching?
    In the practical world when someone has shown themselves to be incompetent, weak, or duplicitous you don't follow them, you don't imitate them. you don't defend them. At minimum you ignore them.
    Francis may or may not hold the Office in some way, but I honestly can't understand anyone defending him. I understand wanting to defend the Church and the Papacy (which I assume is what you are trying to do, and what any good Catholic wants to do), but playing this sick minimalist game of "he didn't exactly teach error, he just did everything that he could to promote it"  discredits and cheapens the Church in my opinion.
    Patience is a conquering virtue. The learned say that, if it not desert you, It vanquishes what force can never reach; Why answer back at every angry speech? No, learn forbearance or, I'll tell you what, You will be taught it, whether you will or not.
    -Geoffrey Chaucer

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: To Sedes: Time's Running Out to Elect a New Pope!!!
    « Reply #28 on: February 22, 2021, 03:05:15 AM »
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  • And how do you think sedevacantists (and the SSPXjustify consecrating bishops without a papal mandate, when doing so is expressly forbidden in the 1917 Code of Canon law, and again later by Pius XII, who raised the penalty for doing so from suspension to excommunication?  
    There, that's better.

    How did Abp. L justify it? Answer - a state of emergency, No?
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: To Sedes: Time's Running Out to Elect a New Pope!!!
    « Reply #29 on: February 22, 2021, 03:08:52 AM »
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  • Reading anything from the Vatican II popes and Vatican II, should be forbidden to the laity, and kept behind lock and key at seminaries, and limited to rare use by clergy in the study of sophism/ambiguity/error/heresy.

    I keep repeating it - "Rat poison is 99% nutritious food". It's that 1% dispersed in every molecule of the nutritious food that will kill you just the same, no matter how nutritious and good it tastes.
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24


     

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