Let's hear it then.

There is No Such Thing as 'sede vacantism'.  :reporter:

I've been meaning to ask you why you say such a thing on your signature and why you always say this.

Do you always mean it as a joke?

:roll-laugh1:

Why are you so childish? Aren't you a grown up?

If you're a recognise-and-resister, you're either a sedevacantist who doesn't know it yet, or you're a heretic, since the idea that one can deliberately and obstinately defy a valid vicar of Christ and remain a faithful Catholic is utterly preposterous and totally heretical.

First of all, there's no need to descend into polemics, and if you approach delicate matters in sacred theology in such a way, you are almost guaranteed to err. I'll be happy to explain and defend the so-called recognize and resist position, and to show you how such eminent Doctors as St. Thomas and St. Robert mention the possibility of authority being abused, even to the point of unjust excommunications issuing from the Supreme Pontiff. But that wasn't the point of your thread here, I'll remind you. And an attack on the non-sede position does nothing to explain the gigantic difficulty this creates for the position that we have had no Pope for 55 years, because there is no one to appoint bishops to office, no one to give them a canonical mission in that scenario, and most bishops who had it have died by now. If you think a bishop cannot belong to the hierarchy just because he is in the Conciliar Church, that is true for all bishops under your idea but not under the Society's.

The Society knows only too well what sedevacantists don't take into account, that the true hierarchy is constituted of those who have received a legitimate canonical mission from the Pope. This doctrine of the faith is why the Society says there are still some in the mainstream or Conciliar Church who haven't totally lost the faith yet and why 55 year sedevacantism is monumentally improbable at best when this is taken into account. Yes, we all know jurisdiction is supplied for certain acts to those who do not have it habitually when there is a state of necessity.

But that is entirely beside the point. Ordinary jurisdiction is necessary for Apostolicity of mission, (and receiving jurisdiction supplied for individual acts is not the same as having  ordinary jurisdiction no matter how many times it is supplied) it is the formal component of the same, that power comes from the Supreme Pontiff to the bishops, and while it is possible for the number of the hierarchy that have kept the faith to be greatly diminished (as the Society maintains), the whole Church cannot be deprived of that power, otherwise the Catholic Church has ceased to be Apostolic, which is impossible. Thoughtful sedevacantists should, before they misguidedly berate non-sedes out of their own misunderstanding, ask themselves the question, where is the hierarchy of the Church today, where are the Bishops appointed to offices in the Church by a Pope, having ordinary jurisdiction? They are in the mainstream Church.

First of all, there's no need to descend into polemics, and if you approach delicate matters in sacred theology in such a way, you are almost guaranteed to err. I'll be happy to explain and defend the so-called recognize and resist position, and to show you how such eminent Doctors as St. Thomas and St. Robert mention the possibility of authority being abused,

Let's stop it right there.

Before you dare and quote St. Robert Bellarmine, DON'T.

Unbelievable! Will you dare to quote St. Robert Bellarmine?

even to the point of unjust excommunications issuing from the Supreme Pontiff. But that wasn't the point of your thread here, I'll remind you.

Of course it is to the point, for you are saying, "oh SV  is false because of apostolicity of misison", when your very own priests and bishops don't have any jurisdiction from the novus ordo and are considered illegitimate by your "popes".

And an attack on the non-sede position does nothing to explain the gigantic difficulty this creates for the position that we have had no Pope for 55 years, because there is no one to appoint bishops to office, no one to give them a canonical mission in that scenario, and most bishops who had it have died by now.

All this has already been answered and refuted in detail.

All you're doing is recycling the same junk that has been said for decades.

If you think a bishop cannot belong to the hierarchy just because he is in the Conciliar Church, that is true for all bishops under your idea but not under the Society's.

Wait a second what is this "Conciliar Church" you are talking about here? Is this "Conciliar Church" the Catholic Church?

This "bishop who belongs to the novus ordo who has held on to the faith" is outright nonsense and impossible since the new rite of consecration is invalid and the old ones are dead or have shown no signs of them "holding the faith".

The Society knows only too well what sedevacantists don't take into account, that the true hierarchy is constituted of those who have received a legitimate canonical mission from the Pope.

So the SSPX is completely illicit.

This doctrine of the faith is why the Society says there are still some in the mainstream or Conciliar Church who haven't totally lost the faith yet and why 55 year sedevacantism is monumentally improbable at best when this is taken into account.

DOCTRINE OF FAITH IS THAT THE CHURCH CANNOT DEFECT.

I already answered to your so-called "difficulty" about jurisdiction.

Yes, we all know jurisdiction is supplied for certain acts to those who do not have it habitually when there is a state of necessity.

But that is entirely beside the point. Ordinary jurisdiction is necessary for Apostolicity of mission, (and receiving jurisdiction supplied for individual acts is not the same as having  ordinary jurisdiction no matter how many times it is supplied) it is the formal component of the same, that power comes from the Supreme Pontiff to the bishops, and while it is possible for the number of the hierarchy that have kept the faith to be greatly diminished (as the Society maintains), the whole Church cannot be deprived of that power, otherwise the Catholic Church has ceased to be Apostolic, which is impossible.

Even IF all that you say were true, which it is not, it doesn't all of a sudden make the modernist heretic apostates in the Vatican NOT heretics apostates and modernists.

Thoughtful sedevacantists should, before they misguidedly berate non-sedes out of their own misunderstanding, ask themselves the question, where is the hierarchy of the Church today, where are the Bishops appointed to offices in the Church by a Pope, having ordinary jurisdiction? They are in the mainstream Church.

Certainly not in the Novus Ordo.

You think we are just in some "crisis" which will be overcome and all will be well later.

We are in the Great Apostasy. Nothing will be the same later and it will only get worse.

Wake up already.

Quote from: Nishant

First of all, there's no need to descend into polemics, and if you approach delicate matters in sacred theology in such a way, you are almost guaranteed to err. I'll be happy to explain and defend the so-called recognize and resist position, and to show you how such eminent Doctors as St. Thomas and St. Robert mention the possibility of authority being abused,

Let's stop it right there.

Before you dare and quote St. Robert Bellarmine, DON'T.

Unbelievable! Will you dare to quote St. Robert Bellarmine?

First you all ask for a defense of R&R, then you say you don't want to hear it...? :confused1:

After todays Gospel, I'm going to try to leave it at that and remain charitable. But please, give the man a break. Either give him a chance to explain, or don't ask the question if you think you can't handle it.

Since we are in an extraordinary situation, of course, where public apostates and heretics have taken over all the Church buildings and offices and the Vatican itself, all truly Catholic and traditional Priests and Bishops receive SUPPLIED JURISDICTION. Fr. Cekada has already explained this at length and it is just astounding how someone like you can still ask such things as if they were some sort of "deathblow" to sedevacantism when in fact it is in favor of it and refutes your position and shows how thouroughly false it is.

Nobody receives supplied jurisdiction. The Church can and does supply jurisdiction for specific acts, but no one "has" supplied jurisdiction. Actually, it is Fr. Cekada who holds the heretical position that the hierarchy has disappeared completely.