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Author Topic: Prodinoscopus...  (Read 2067 times)

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Offline Caminus

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Prodinoscopus...
« Reply #15 on: June 23, 2009, 02:59:08 AM »
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  • Quote from: gladius_veritatis
    Quote from: Caminus
    But on the other hand, listen carefully, this problem does not touch upon the faith itself.


    Does worshiping with Animists in Lake Togo "touch upon the faith"?  If NOT, what possibly COULD?

    "...cogitatione, verbo, et opere..."

    Btw, Mortalium animos clearly spells out that such behavior (and the mere SUPPORT of such) is - not approaches, leads to, etc., but IS - apostasy.

    "...Not only are those who hold this opinion in error and deceived, but also in distorting the idea of true religion they reject it, and little by little, turn aside to naturalism and atheism, as it is called; from which it clearly follows that one who supports those who hold these theories and attempt to realize them, IS altogether abandoning the divinely revealed religion..." [My emphasis - g_v]

    That last bit is a concise definition of apostasy - and is being applied to those who merely support such activity.


    The question is: what is "this opinion" to which Mortalium Animos refers.  And communicatio in sacris has never been thought of as an act of apostasy.  Sacrilege is a different vice than apastasy.  

    But your example isn't ad rem for the question was: how does asserting that Muslims (or anyone else for that matter) worship the same God as us directly deny an article of faith.  It doesn't touch upon our faith, rather it is a statement about people outside the Church, it is a statement of fact (or fiction) that doesn't objectively deny any truth of faith.  For one could theoretically assert that all men actually worship the Blessed Trinity, consciously or unconsciously, whilst still maintaining all the dogmas of the faith for their inclusion doesn't affect the substance of our belief.  Therefore it is not strictly heresy, nor is it apostasy.  It is a philosophical/theological error in fact, that is ultimately outside of the competence of the magisterium of the Church.  No Catholic is bound to believe this statement.  


    Offline Raoul76

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    Prodinoscopus...
    « Reply #16 on: June 23, 2009, 03:34:43 AM »
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  • "Sounds to me like you do alot of day dreaming, trying to connect the dots with the haze of conspiracy, and not alot of actual study regardind dogmatic theology.  You're mind seems to be very close to mush, logically speaking."

    I will give you this, Caminus.  You are good at what you do.  You know how to go for the jugular and attack weaknesses.  

    What can I say against this?  My being a daydreamer or intellectual dilettante or having a "pattern-making" mind doesn't mean that I am not right about what I say, but it's a nice aspersion to use to discredit me with whoever might be reading, because there is some truth to it.  Congrats.  You are very intuitive.  I was actually warned today in a letter that precisely this would happen.

    What you said isn't false, exactly, but it's as if, say, Mary Magdalene were trying to convert you after the death of Christ, and you said, "Why should I listen to you?  You're the village whore."  You're simply using whatever weakness in my character you can find against me, and hoping that will blacken my ( screen ) name.

    Luckily there are other sedes out there who use the scholastic method more thoroughly than I do, and I do not try to compete with them.  

    Now I am being accused of being too spontaneous, whereas before I was too pretentious.  Now I am unscholastic, when before I was an insufferable bookworm.  But this may be a blessing in disguise.  I think God kept me a bit worldly like Augustine so that I would have a different angle on this debate.  I see someone like John Lane fumbling through books to find quotes and missing simple facts that are right under his nose, or entirely omitting the very existence of Freemasons and conspirators.  I'm not sure books are the answer here.  No book written 500 years ago can describe our unique historical situation.

    I grant to myself a certain freedom to speak of cօռspιʀαcιҽs precisely because I am not a clergyman, and so I don't have to be afraid to be called a "nut."  I expect it.  And I am absolutely certain that anyone at this stage in history that doesn't believe in cօռspιʀαcιҽs is the real nut. The devil is running out of ideas and the "playing both sides" tactic he uses with Vatican II/SSPX is now painfully obvious ( there's that word again ).

    As for the rest of your post --

    "Now for the last time, please demonstrate how asserting that Muslims worship the same God, an assertion of concrete fact regarding a particular group of people, directly denies an article of faith."

    It doesn't say Muslims worship "the same god."  With your usual shameless pretense you are acting as if Lumen Gentium says only that all Muslims worship the same God i.e. Allah.  Actually it says "together with US ( Catholics ) they worship the one true God."  That is, Muslims and Catholics have the SAME God.

    For the millionth time, just as with the quote from JPII about the Old Covenant, this is saying that Christ's sacrifice was not necessary and not the only path to salvation.  I do not want to be part of a "Church" making that assumption because I can guarantee you, those who support such a horrible, impious lie by their presence in a Novus Ordo death-chamber, patiently listening to such things, are in grave danger.  It also implies -- more than implies -- that it is not necessary for EVERY MAN to submit to the Holy Catholic Church as the One True Church that is guided by the Holy Spirit.  

    By doing this, they eliminated two of the four marks.  No longer is their Church One and Catholic ( universal ), because there are other ways to be saved.  And after toppling these two marks, the other two fell on their own.  This Catholic-seeming sect cannot be apostolic because how can a Catholic who believes in only one path to salvation try to convert people to an unnecessary, optional Church?  That is like trying to fly in a hot-air balloon that you've filled with mustard.  The apostolic mission has been totally robbed of urgency.  And all of this of course defeats the holiness of the Church.  

    Luckily it is a fake Church that is missing the four marks.  The real one still has them.

    I hope the hour of your insane defiance is almost up and that, instead of pipsqueaks like me reaching for their keyboards, Michael the Archangel is reaching for his trumpet.  How much longer will this go on?
    Readers: Please IGNORE all my postings here. I was a recent convert and fell into errors, even heresy for which hopefully my ignorance excuses. These include rejecting the "rhythm method," rejecting the idea of "implicit faith," and being brieflfy quasi-Jansenist. I also posted occasions of sins and links to occasions of sin, not understanding the concept much at the time, so do not follow my links.


    Offline Prodinoscopus

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    « Reply #17 on: June 23, 2009, 09:07:29 AM »
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  • Quote from: Raoul76
    "Now for the last time, please demonstrate how asserting that Muslims worship the same God, an assertion of concrete fact regarding a particular group of people, directly denies an article of faith."

    It doesn't say Muslims worship "the same god."  With your usual shameless pretense you are acting as if Lumen Gentium says only that all Muslims worship the same God i.e. Allah.  Actually it says "together with US ( Catholics ) they worship the one true God."  That is, Muslims and Catholics have the SAME God.

    You misunderstood Caminus' point. He does not interpret LG to say merely that Muslims worship the same God among themselves. He knows perfectly well that LG says that Muslims worship the same God -- one and merciful -- as Catholics. Caminus' question to you is as follows:

    How does a profound theological error of fact ("Muslims worship the same God as Catholics, i.e., Muslims worship God who is 'one and merciful' even if they deny the Trinity") constitute a direct and explicit denial of an article of Faith?

    Please identify precisely which article of Faith is being directly and explicitly denied by LG.
    Exile in Novus Ordo land ... please pray for me!

    Offline Prodinoscopus

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    Prodinoscopus...
    « Reply #18 on: June 23, 2009, 09:13:30 AM »
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  • Quote
    ... this is saying that Christ's sacrifice was not necessary and not the only path to salvation.

    That is just flat out wrong, Raoul76. Saying that "Muslims worship the same God as Catholics, i.e., Muslims worship God who is 'one and merciful' even if they deny the Trinity" is not the same as saying that "Christ's sacrifice was not necessary and not the only path to salvation". You are making an absurd logical leap here. The first statement is a profound theological error of fact. The second statement is a manifest denial of a specific article of the Catholic Faith.
    Exile in Novus Ordo land ... please pray for me!

    Offline Dawn

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    Prodinoscopus...
    « Reply #19 on: June 23, 2009, 09:52:57 AM »
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  • I am busy studying. I will be back later. I am reading Father Cekada, Tumultous Times by Radecki, and Bishop Tillier De Mallerais. I find this quote of his to be most interesting.

     "there exists a 'legitimate doubt' on the 'validity of a pope such as Benedict XVI." Tissier noted in his letter that the SSPX's founder, Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, also had this doubt.-+Tillier to the French Press.



    Offline CM

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    Prodinoscopus...
    « Reply #20 on: June 23, 2009, 05:27:01 PM »
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  • Offline Prodinoscopus

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    Prodinoscopus...
    « Reply #21 on: June 23, 2009, 07:29:54 PM »
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  • CM, strictly speaking, LG does not say that the Muslims have God the Father revealed by His Son Jesus Christ.  However, I've been mulling things over and I'm beginning to think that all of this hairsplitting about what constitutes explicit heresy might be missing the point. I might post some surprising things later (or I might not -- I still need to mull some more).  Watch this space ...
    Exile in Novus Ordo land ... please pray for me!

    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Prodinoscopus...
    « Reply #22 on: June 24, 2009, 01:30:15 AM »
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  • Quote from: Caminus
    The question is: what is "this opinion" to which Mortalium Animos refers.


    Read the encyclical.  Then, read JP2's works.  The opinion is that all religions are more or less praiseworthy - something JP2 stated word for word multiple times.  He put his money where his despicable mouth was, too, joining MYRIAD actions to his insane statements.

    "...cogitatione, verbo, et opere..."
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."


    Offline Caminus

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    Prodinoscopus...
    « Reply #23 on: June 24, 2009, 02:36:07 AM »
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  • The Pope said that statement rests upon another opinion which he stated just prior.  You have to determine the presence of that opinion, not whether he made the statement that all religions are good and praiseworthy.  You'll get no argument from me on that score.  So egregious was his error on this that he thought the Council "re-defined" the nature of the Church.  Assisi was but a manifestation of his ecclesiology.  Don't make the mistake of thinking that just because I defend him from accusations of apostasy, I defend him pure and simple.  Far from it.  If there was anyone that could be suspected of heresy it was him.  In fact, if one were to hold him as a heretic, I wouldn't be surprised at all, but overstating the case doesn't help.  John Paul was absolutely the worse Pope in history.  If Pope Agatho thought that Honorious was an "instrument of the Devil" for his mere private accomodation of one heresy, what would he have thought of John Paul?      

    Offline CM

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    Prodinoscopus...
    « Reply #24 on: June 24, 2009, 04:45:02 AM »
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  • Quote from: Caminus
    If Pope Agatho thought that Honorious was an "instrument of the Devil" for his mere private accomodation of one heresy, what would he have thought of John Paul?


    Why, that he was an apostate antipope, of course. :rolleyes: