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Traditional Catholic Faith => Crisis in the Church => Topic started by: DeMaistre on June 20, 2009, 01:34:56 AM
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We must all abjure from our schism. Our position is indefensible.
Even if the Pope were Satan incarnate, we ought not to raise our heads against him, but calmly lie down to rest on his bosom. He who rebels against our Father is condemned to death, for that which we do to him we do to Christ: we honour Christ if we honour the Pope; we dishonour Christ if we dishonour the Pope. I know very well that many defend themselves by boasting: "They are so corrupt, and work all manner of evil!" But God has commanded that, even if the priests, the pastors, and Christ-on-earth were incarnate devils, we be obedient and subject to them, not for their sakes, but for the sake of God, and out of obedience to Him. ~ Saint Catherine of Sienna
I realise that I have lost all my standing now, but I must follow Christ and not men. I apologise for my arrogance.
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What "standing"? We are ALL non-entities. Your business is your own. God speed.
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Even if the Pope were Satan incarnate, we ought not to raise our heads against him, but calmly lie down to rest on his bosom.
Very eloquent (although a bit foolish, taken as literal advice), but not ad rem. It is not that I rebel against the one I take to be the Pontiff, I do not believe he IS the Pontiff. See? God speed.
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The undertow is strong, isn't it, DeMaistre?
St. Catherine of Siena again, and I've said this a billion times about those who talk about supporting the Pope at any cost, was referring to a Pope's moral failings. That means if Ratzinger was carving up golden retriever puppies in public and eating their corpses raw, he would still be Pope. I'm being emphatic so you understand.
BUT TEACHING HERESY PERSISTENTLY HE CANNOT EVEN BE CATHOLIC. Let alone the Pope. The Pope was either Siri or he was never even elected.
Do you recall the sections of the Bible where the Man of Sin sits in the temple of God? Do you recall Daniel talking about the abomination of desolation? Do you recall Jesus saying "When therefore you shall see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place: he that readeth let him understand. Then they that are in Judea, let them flee to the mountains. And he that is on the housetop, let him not come down to take any thing out of his house. And he that is in the field, let him not go back to take his coat."
Do you think Catherine of Siena would worship the Man of Sin, a figure of the Man of the Sin, or a precursor of the Man of Sin? This is not the Pope. It is an agent of Satan who sits in the Holy Place as a THIEF. It is part of the necessary mystery of the ages that an agent of Satan ( or more than one ) sit in the throne of Peter. This is just like the Arian crisis all over again with one notable exception -- during that crisis, the Pope held the faith.
You are young and I'm sure you will go up and down on this many times. But keep in mind, you are going back to get your cloak. I hope the world doesn't end while you are in full spiritual backslide mode. You have no idea how lucky you are ( or were ) to have even brushed against the truth. I urge you not to be hasty.
God speed and God bless.
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Correction:
When I say "That means if Ratzinger was carving up golden retriever puppies in public and eating their corpses raw, he would still be Pope" I actually meant --
"That means that if a hypothetical validly elected Pope were carving up golden retriever puppies in public and eating their corpses raw, he would still be Pope. "
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I shouldn't have flown off the handle like that. DeMaistre, do you care to elucidate what happened between today and yesterday, when you were flinging words like "apostate" at Ratzinger?
You sympathize rightly with the many people of the Asian lands who are under Ratzinger. Are you terrified by the idea that these masses of Asians are doomed and you cannot believe this is true? I've heard of this happening before. People just lose the ability to believe that SO MANY people are in a delusion and lost. But we read in Daniel that towards the end the devil will prosper to an extent that is unbelievable. He will have power over all the nations.
There are sede enclaves in Japan and for all we know there are also enclaves in China and Vietnam as well. Need I remind you that it was a Vietnamese man, Abp. Thuc, who was one of the fiercest opponents of the heretics?
Let the dead bury their dead -- you can't save those in China or anywhere else by throwing yourself away. God gave you extraordinary graces and you are stomping on them.
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Wow.
Ok, DeMaistre, you told me to slow down the other day. Now, believe it or not, I'm going to caution you to do the same.
I know that it's very tempting to make grand public resolutions in these forums -- I've done it many times. I'm very good at projecting my inner dramas. It's probably not a harmful thing, yet it is an exercise with limited value. At best, it helps us to think things through and get (sometimes) helpful feedback; at worst, it feeds our vanity. Something to think about. What would St. Alphonsus say?
I believe that you said that you've embraced the sede position for only a few weeks, which means that your "reversion" was only somewhat less quick than mine (a matter of weeks, rather than days). If you "revert" back to sedevacantism in the next 24 hours, I won't hold it against you.
These are confusing times. Practice the virtues, keep the Faith.
Take your mind off the sede debate for a while by praying the Act of Reparation to the Sacred Heart of Jesus:
http://www.preces-latinae.org/thesaurus/Filius/ActusRep.html
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DeMaistre, I've had a further think about all of this, and would offer the following point of view.
If the reality turns out to be that the Holy See is filled and the Pope (for better or for worse) is Benedict XVI, then you do not want death to find you a member of a sedevacantist chapel. If that happens, you will die in schism and you will go to hell. If you die in schism, all of your piety, orthodoxy, and good works will not be able to save you.
Raoul76 & Co. want you to believe that they alone see reality, and that the reality is that Benedict XVI is an agent of the devil and an anti-pope. By what authority do they make this most disturbing claim? They will say that it is by the authority of the infallible magisterium prior to Vatican II (or prior to 1914, according to CM). All that it takes, they will tell you, is a common sense application of the infallible magisterium to the present situation, and voila! -- Benedict XVI is proven a manifest and pertinacious heretic and the sedevacantist thesis becomes instantly binding on your conscience. If you do not subscribe to the sedevacantist thesis, you follow a heretic anti-pope and are a willing thrall of Satan. Worse yet, you divert needed funds from Raoul76's coffers. :-)
Now, stop right there and pay very close attention to what I'm about to say.
The ultimate authority behind the sedevacantist position is the infallible magisterium as reflected in the teachings of Holy Mother Church prior to Vatican II (or prior to 1914, according to CM). However, the proximate authority behind the sedevacantist position -- by the sedes' own admission -- is common sense. "Of course Benedict XVI is a heretic anti-pope! It's common sense! If you cannot see it, you are culpable and guilty of grave sin!"
Such is the "authority" behind the sedevacantist position. What is the authority behind the anti-sedevacantist position? I submit that both the ultimate and proximate authority behind Benedict XVI's claim to legitimacy is ... Benedict XVI himself, i.e., the man who was elected by conclave and claims thereby to be the real successor of St. Peter. In the absence of a rival claimant to the Chair of Peter (a rival who emerged from the same conclave as Benedict XVI), no one else can claim proximate authority in the name of Our Lord Jesus Christ to settle the matter of whether Benedict XVI is a valid Pope.
Upon what authority do you want to stake your eternal salvation? (Remember what becomes of your immortal soul if in objective reality you die in a state of schism.) Do you choose the authority of the one man who claims (and has the act of a conclave to back up the claim) to be the rightful successor of St. Peter, or do you choose the "common sense" of Raoul76 & Co.?
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Hold on. Do any of you really think that St. Catherine ever could have contemplated men such as these who aid and cover up for beasts raping little boys in the confessional? Such men who would tell the Chinese underground to bow down and worship Satan's own religion of Communism? She would never tell us to follow these men for they are leading souls to hell.
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We must all abjure from our schism. Our position is indefensible.
Even if the Pope were Satan incarnate, we ought not to raise our heads against him, but calmly lie down to rest on his bosom. He who rebels against our Father is condemned to death, for that which we do to him we do to Christ: we honour Christ if we honour the Pope; we dishonour Christ if we dishonour the Pope. I know very well that many defend themselves by boasting: "They are so corrupt, and work all manner of evil!" But God has commanded that, even if the priests, the pastors, and Christ-on-earth were incarnate devils, we be obedient and subject to them, not for their sakes, but for the sake of God, and out of obedience to Him. ~ Saint Catherine of Sienna
I realise that I have lost all my standing now, but I must follow Christ and not men. I apologise for my arrogance.
Could someone put correct quote marks around the words of St Catherine so it is clear whar she actually said.
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Foolish then, is he who departs from the Vicar of Christ Crucified, who has the keys of the Blood, or who goes against him ... Even though the pope were satan incarnate himself, I may not lift up my head against him, but I must always humble myself, and beg for the Blood as a mercy, for in no other wise can I obtain a part of it ...
"Satan incarnate himself" -- that characterization would include just about any evil thing, don't you think?
Unfortunately, I cannot provide an exact citation for the above quote, and therefore I'm not able to fully vouch for its authenticity. I've seen it a number of times. Perhaps someone else can provide a citation.
The quote is often used by "conservative" Catholics against SSPXers, the argument being that you cannot say anything critical about the Pope.
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We must all abjure from our schism. Our position is indefensible.
Even if the Pope were Satan incarnate, we ought not to raise our heads against him, but calmly lie down to rest on his bosom. He who rebels against our Father is condemned to death, for that which we do to him we do to Christ: we honour Christ if we honour the Pope; we dishonour Christ if we dishonour the Pope. I know very well that many defend themselves by boasting: "They are so corrupt, and work all manner of evil!" But God has commanded that, even if the priests, the pastors, and Christ-on-earth were incarnate devils, we be obedient and subject to them, not for their sakes, but for the sake of God, and out of obedience to Him. ~ Saint Catherine of Sienna
I realise that I have lost all my standing now, but I must follow Christ and not men. I apologise for my arrogance.
:applause: :dancing-banana: :applause:
Congrats on your decision.
Indeed in the Bible we read something like that, too. It is easy to throw the baby out with the bathwater, and especially when it brings shame on us all the way so many have been acting in Rome... however, that doesn't do away with their office, and while it may be hard to swallow that distinction, the office and authority are from God, even if men sometimes soil them by bad lives.
It's a bitter and humiliating thing to follow (in all that is RIGHT, not sinful) a hierarchy that behaves as this one does... but then there is the matter of the office or authority, and that is another matter. However it helps to remember that no one has the authority to command us to sin. Thus, we need not obey any sinful commands or suggestions, regardless of the office. (Thus, we aren't bound to be NO Catholics.) As for the humiliation of being associated with men who do such things as these have, it helps to remember the cross, and the humiliations of Christ being condemned like a criminal.
As for looking down on you or thinking less of you... I wouldn't "triumph" over or look down on anyone who turns out of the sede path. Rather, I would give thanks to God that another person has chosen well by His grace. Which one of us has never been wrong? Let him who is without sin cast the first stone. Personally, I hope every sede reconsiders, as much as I hope every non-Catholic reconsiders. I want everyone to go to heaven and to live the holiest possible life on earth, and to possess as much of the truth as possible even in this life. I would have no joy or glee in knowing any soul persevered in anything else and perhaps endangered or lost their souls. (THAT would be pride... and the worst kind. To wish someone damnation.)
Hope you persevere in your decision. God will give you the strength, I'm sure. But if it weren't for the same grace, who knows what any one of us might believe. We could have been atheists even!
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I shouldn't have flown off the handle like that. DeMaistre, do you care to elucidate what happened between today and yesterday, when you were flinging words like "apostate" at Ratzinger?
I've been torn between the two paths for a long time. I've also had a very rough...and equally sinful night.
You sympathize rightly with the many people of the Asian lands who are under Ratzinger. Are you terrified by the idea that these masses of Asians are doomed and you cannot believe this is true? I've heard of this happening before. People just lose the ability to believe that SO MANY people are in a delusion and lost. But we read in Daniel that towards the end the devil will prosper to an extent that is unbelievable. He will have power over all the nations.
Yes, and its disgusting. I wish that today, there was some visible enemy, so that we could take up the cross and go to war with them, but it is not so. The only weapon that can be wielded against this enemy is prayer.
There are sede enclaves in Japan and for all we know there are also enclaves in China and Vietnam as well. Need I remind you that it was a Vietnamese man, Abp. Thuc, who was one of the fiercest opponents of the heretics?
I am particularly proud of His Lordship, and His Lordship's brother, Ngo Dinh Diem, who was the best leader Viet Nam ever had. He had Viet Nam consecrated to the Sacred Heart and held the Catholic Faith as the only priveledged religion of the state.
Let the dead bury their dead -- you can't save those in China or anywhere else by throwing yourself away. God gave you extraordinary graces and you are stomping on them.
What is from God? Was it me "converting" to sedevacantism? Was it me reconsidering now? How can I know?
I know that it's very tempting to make grand public resolutions in these forums -- I've done it many times. I'm very good at projecting my inner dramas. It's probably not a harmful thing, yet it is an exercise with limited value. At best, it helps us to think things through and get (sometimes) helpful feedback; at worst, it feeds our vanity. Something to think about. What would St. Alphonsus say?
Its not about vanity. St. Alphonsus would say that I am horrible sinner and that I will go to Hell if I don't change.
Hold on. Do any of you really think that St. Catherine ever could have contemplated men such as these who aid and cover up for beasts raping little boys in the confessional? Such men who would tell the Chinese underground to bow down and worship Satan's own religion of Communism? She would never tell us to follow these men for they are leading souls to hell.
I've been saying all along that these men, Ratzinger, Benedict XVI, whoever he is, I have no idea anymore, are quite literally incarnate devils. I used to believe that Paul VI was literally either possesed by countless demons or an incarnate devil. St. Catherine is saying that even if the pope were Satan incarnate, we would still have to obey him, not for his sake but for God's.
This is so confusing. The evidence for the heresy of these men is so evident, and Canon Law says that they are excommunicated. They are anti-popes, maybe even demons, but I must bow my head and submit to them.
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DeMaistre,
St. Catherine (assuming that the quote attributed to her is accurate) is not saying that we must obey a bad pope in everything, whether he is carving up and eating golden retriever puppies or saying that Jєωs and Muslims worship the same God as Catholics. She says, rather, that we must never lift up our head against him. That is, we must be humble in his presence, because he is Christ's Vicar on earth, no matter what a scoundrel he might be. If we feel compelled to correct an erring Pope, we should do so with our eyes averted.
I think that you're on the right track here. Stay the course!
:pray:
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By the way, I have bookmarked Catholic Tradition under my favorites. While there, I noticed the complete quote from St. Catherine. Very sobering. She corrected the Pope, firmly, yet as a loving daughter. A lesson there for all of us: sedes, SSPXers, and disaffected exiles in Novus Ordo land.
God bless!
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That is because he WAS a true Pope.
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Just like this one. :rolleyes:
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That is because he WAS a true Pope.
I think that the point here is that St. Catherine would never adopt the sedevacantist thesis. Feel free to interpret her writings otherwise if you wish, but I think that you will have to distort her intentions in order to do so.
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None of the GWS Popes( with the prob exception of the worthless Urban VI(6?) are anti-popes so of course St Catherine defers to them. This is not the case today.
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That is because he WAS a true Pope.
I think that the point here is that St. Catherine would never adopt the sedevacantist thesis. Feel free to interpret her writings otherwise if you wish, but I think that you will have to distort her intentions in order to do so.
I do not think you are qualified to say what St Catherine would or would not have done re: todays v2 anti-church. Be that as it may I AM NOT A 'SEDE VACANTIST' AND IN FACT HAD NEVER HEARD OF SUCH A THING until a visit to the TCW site.
The evidence is overwhelming that Greg XVII was truely elected Pope in 1958 and was such until 1989.
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Hold on. DeMaistre, stop making dramatic pronouncements and just take some time out to think.
First, please give us this Catherine of Siena quote where she talks about serving the Pope even if he is a devil. Without even knowing the quote I can tell you almost 100% that the gist of it, the thinking behind it is, "The office of Pope is not dependent on the personal morality of the one holding it."
I have to take issue even with Dawn here, who I almost always agree with. She says that these can't be Popes because they are protecting child molesters... Actually, EVEN THEN they could still be Popes. Popes in the Middle Ages, which sedes tend to idealize, protected priests who were living openly with women. There is even a term for this: Concubinage! Even Popes with heroic reputations like Pius X did next to nothing to clean house and expunge the creeping liberal rot.
I want to make this very clear. The reason I hold the sedevacantist position is not because of idealism. The Church has never been perfect IN ITS MEMBERS. It is only perfect in itself, as the spotless Bride of Christ. So Catherine of Siena is right to support the Pope even if he were a child-molesting, nun-raping brute. But would she support someone who WASN'T EVEN CATHOLIC? And therefore is not Pope at all? Be careful before you answer, or the ghost of Catherine might give you a painful noogie.
The Catholic Church is God's means of harvesting souls, of collecting the wheat. Paul VI -- who you are absolutely right in your assessment of -- was a revolutionary, but he knew the source of the Church's power, that it was One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic. Being the devil that he was, he wanted to eliminate its ONENESS. Suddenly other religions became acceptable, seeds of the truth, or alternate paths to heaven. Muslims share the same God as Catholics. The Old Covenant with the Jєωs was never rescinded.
Do you see what he did here? He de-boned the whole chicken!
Jesus came precisely to DESTROY the Old Covenant. God, from this point on, worked ONLY through the Catholic Church. It is that new covenant that gives the Catholic Church its unique mission and power. The way the fake Popes talk now, the Catholic Church is a really good Church, and it certainly has a special longevity that sets it apart -- but others are good too, and besides, times have changed. How do you convert someone to that? It's like taking the air out of your car tires and then trying to go for a drive.
Imagine a missionary in Japan in the 19th century. He is preaching to the heathens and telling them that God has come in the flesh. He tells them they MUST convert to God's One Church, the Catholic Church, to be saved. His preaching is firm, stable and coherent.
Now imagine yourself trying to convert someone to the Church under Ratzinger. Just feel how unsolid it has become, how vague. It is like the difference between a Sealy Posturepedic Mattress and a waterbed. What would you say to this African/Japanese/Indian man to convert him, how would you make him feel the urgency of converting? This false "Catholic" Church now is an indefinable SOMETHING, held together by vague self-worship ( 666, the cult of man ) and feel-good vibes, barely any different than an Agape Church.
There is no urgency to it, no feeling that you must NECESSARILY accept its teachings for your salvation. No one even knows what its teachings are anymore -- except that the one sin is to be traditional! The Vatican II "priests" and "bishops" all, to a man, try to encourage this relativism and apathy. That is why they stop people from kneeling or being reverent in any way. It's why they harass people who want a Latin Mass and then give them a fake one to shut them up.
DeMaistre, don't tangle yourself up. If you go back into this non-Church, this impostor Church, this creature of alchemy and taxidermy, you can no longer say it is the ONE true Church because the new non-Popes themselves do not even teach that! Follow your own logic to its conclusion. If these are Popes you must believe their teaching. But to try to follow their teaching and still remain Catholic is an impossibility.
The devil wants you to be as schizophrenic as he is and anyone remaining with these non-Popes must be necessarily that -- DOUBLE-MINDED and TWO-FACED. Hence, Vatican TWO is in direct opposition with the ONE Catholic Church, who must be the sedevacantists. We know the Church will last until the end, but we also know that almost no one will be left who still keeps the faith ( "When the Son of Man returns to Earth, will He find faith?" )
The reason why so few believe the truth, is because the truth is so unbelievable. Could all these people really be deluded? What about that nice girl who fixes roast beef sandwiches at Subway, is she going to burn eternally? What about all those pretty young couples, aren't they innocent? And all those people in Africa, in Asia?
Make no mistake -- what is happening is HIGHLY disturbing and sickening. Words cannot express just how awful it is. But this is the hour of the devil, prophesied from all eternity. It doesn't mean that God isn't fair. Think -- ANY of these people could do what we're doing and research. They have the Internet. They know about traditional Catholics from Mel Gibson.
NO ONE CARES. HUMANITY IS IN REBELLION.
You must understand that we wouldn't BE here unless, over centuries, people had ceased to pay attention to the truth. First they want relaxed rules. Then they want to believe that all men are saved. Eventually they are piling one mortal sin on top of the other without fear. And then it's over. "Therefore God shall send them the operation of error, to believe lying."
You worry about the people in Asia. But what about all the Asian people here? Why are you one of the handful of Vietnamese sedevacantists? Because THEY DON'T CARE. I am Polish-Spanish: Why are the Poles, this great Catholic people, literally kissing the star of David on a Jєωιѕн tombstone of a "h0Ɩ0cαųst" victim after filing out of "Church" ( they do this in Poland )? THEY DON'T CARE. Why have the Spanish, another great Catholic nation, less than one hundred years after the glorious Spanish cινιℓ ωαr, become nothing but a nation of fornicators and club-hoppers? THEY DON'T CARE.
This is the mystery of iniquity, of apostasy. Take it from me. I thought I was going to save the world until I understood. You cannot stop it. It is part of God's plan. We can't interfere, we can't change anything. We are here to observe, to pray and to suffer -- that is it.
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I do not think you are qualified to say what St Catherine would or would not have done re: todays v2 anti-church.
Wow, that's a real discussion stopper.
Yet somehow you are qualified to say that "the evidence is overwhelming" that someone else was elected Pope in 1958.
I defer to your vastly superior qualifications, mr. roscoe.
:fryingpan:
Good night!
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Why are the Poles, this great Catholic people, literally kissing the star of David on a Jєωιѕн tombstone of a "h0Ɩ0cαųst" victim after filing out of "Church" ( they do this in Poland )?
Is that for real? I don't doubt it, I've just never heard of it. Can you please provide more details?
I like your passion and conviction, Raoul76, even if we disagree. I certainly don't question your intentions.
We are here to observe, to pray and to suffer -- that is it.
I think that we can agree on that point.
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Some other quotes from Catherine of Siena:
"Oh dearest father, fall in love with this truth so that you may be a pillar in the mystic body of holy church, where this truth must be administered. For truth is in her, and because truth is in her it must be administered by truthful persons, persons who are in love with truth and enlightened by it -- not persons who are insensitive to and ignorant of it."
"The pastors of holy church, to whom God has entrusted the care of souls, ought to be true shepherds who follow the good holy Shepherd who laid down and gave his life for his little sheep."
I found the quote about laying on the bosom of the "incarnate devil" Pope. I was right. She's talking about a Pope who behaves badly. Not a heretic. Heretics can't be Popes.
A sinning Pope could be a devil incarnate, he could be a murderer with a large harem, and still be Catholic. He would just go to confession. That would be no different than the many, many examples of sinning Catholic kings. Louis XIV was a womanizer yet he was Catholic, had mass said every day, etc. Charlemagne, the great Catholic king, had the morals of an alley cat, and many historians say he committed incest.
For all we know, there might have been a Pope who was like a Charlemagne. It is theoretically possible anyway. But as long as he didn't teach heresy that brought people to hell, that would be okay. It is intellectual dishonesty to pretend that Catherine of Siena, who was all about Catholic truth, would not have seen the difference between a SINNING POPE and a HERETICAL "POPE." The former is a case of human weakness. The latter is an oxymoron.
Popes cannot be pertinacious heretics. The closest we have to a heretical Pope is Honorius and all he did was sin by omission, once, in a private letter -- and in his case there is reason to believe he was unclear or undecided on the issues at hand. Back then dogma was in the process of formation. Now, it is fully-formed. But to bring back the Old Covenant as still being valid wouldn't have even been plausible in A.D. 90.
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Thanks Prodinoscopus. I appreciate that.
Still, though I hate to sound all Catholic Martyr-y and return compliments with insults, considering the lies that SSPX tells in articles like "Is Sedevacantism Catholic," I can't relent when it comes to them, even after we've shared this tender moment. :wink:
But I do understand why people are in SSPX, I think. It attracts a certain pragmatic type that doesn't believe in cօռspιʀαcιҽs and just thinks these are "weak Popes." My mom often says to me "Be patient with people, not everyone has your CONCEPTUAL mind." And I do think it is my concept of history that makes me so confident about the sede position. For me the takeover of the Church was inevitable and the culmination of a long process.
Those who live day-by-day -- as Christ recommends -- may not see this. They may just see a general trend towards amorality in society and the Church bending to fit that. They may not get that there is a masterplan here. But it becomes hard to defend even this position when the non-Popes teach that the Old Covenant still stands, for instance. You don't have to understand the inner workings of Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ to know that that is naked apostasy.
The Polish thing was on YouTube. I don't know how I'll find it again because it was in Polish and I was clicking around absentmindedly. It showed Vatican II Catholics who leave the service, head over to a local Jєωιѕн cemetery, and bow their heads in front of a tombstone bearing the Star of David, one by one. This after hearing a disgusting homily praising Jєωs to the skies and instilling guilt into the flock about the "h0Ɩ0cαųst."
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I do not think you are qualified to say what St Catherine would or would not have done re: todays v2 anti-church.
Wow, that's a real discussion stopper.
Yet somehow you are qualified to say that "the evidence is overwhelming" that someone else was elected Pope in 1958.
I defer to your vastly superior qualifications, mr. roscoe.
:fryingpan:
Good night!
I certainly am qualified to say what I think re: v2 anti-popes as I am here and St Catherine is not.
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Hold on. DeMaistre, stop making dramatic pronouncements and just take some time out to think.
Actually, my cousin was pestering me to get off the computer. :smirk:
First, please give us this Catherine of Siena quote where she talks about serving the Pope even if he is a devil. Without even knowing the quote I can tell you almost 100% that the gist of it, the thinking behind it is, "The office of Pope is not dependent on the personal morality of the one holding it."
Even if the Pope were Satan incarnate, we ought not to raise our heads against him, but calmly lie down to rest on his bosom. He who rebels against our Father is condemned to death, for that which we do to him we do to Christ: we honour Christ if we honour the Pope; we dishonour Christ if we dishonour the Pope. I know very well that many defend themselves by boasting: "They are so corrupt, and work all manner of evil!" But God has commanded that, even if the priests, the pastors, and Christ-on-earth were incarnate devils, we be obedient and subject to them, not for their sakes, but for the sake of God, and out of obedience to Him. ~ Saint Catherine of Sienna
I have to take issue even with Dawn here, who I almost always agree with. She says that these can't be Popes because they are protecting child molesters... Actually, EVEN THEN they could still be Popes. Popes in the Middle Ages, which sedes tend to idealize, protected priests who were living openly with women. There is even a term for this: Concubinage! Even Popes with heroic reputations like Pius X did next to nothing to clean house and expunge the creeping liberal rot.
That's why I say that only a disgusting heretic can be declared anti-pope.
I want to make this very clear. The reason I hold the sedevacantist position is not because of idealism. The Church has never been perfect IN ITS MEMBERS. It is only perfect in itself, as the spotless Bride of Christ. So Catherine of Siena is right to support the Pope even if he were a child-molesting, nun-raping brute. But would she support someone who WASN'T EVEN CATHOLIC? And therefore is not Pope at all? Be careful before you answer, or the ghost of Catherine might give you a painful noogie.
I am following...
The Catholic Church is God's means of harvesting souls, of collecting the wheat. Paul VI -- who you are absolutely right in your assessment of -- was a revolutionary, but he knew the source of the Church's power, that it was One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic. Being the devil that he was, he wanted to eliminate its ONENESS. Suddenly other religions became acceptable, seeds of the truth, or alternate paths to heaven. Muslims share the same God as Catholics. The Old Covenant with the Jєωs was never rescinded.
Do you see what he did here? He de-boned the whole chicken!
Jesus came precisely to DESTROY the Old Covenant. God, from this point on, worked ONLY through the Catholic Church. It is that new covenant that gives the Catholic Church its unique mission and power. The way the fake Popes talk now, the Catholic Church is a really good Church, and it certainly has a special longevity that sets it apart -- but others are good too, and besides, times have changed. How do you convert someone to that? It's like taking the air out of your car tires and then trying to go for a drive.
I understand.
Imagine a missionary in Japan in the 19th century. He is preaching to the heathens and telling them that God has come in the flesh. He tells them they MUST convert to God's One Church, the Catholic Church, to be saved. His preaching is firm, stable and coherent.
Now imagine yourself trying to convert someone to the Church under Ratzinger. Just feel how unsolid it has become, how vague. It is like the difference between a Sealy Posturepedic Mattress and a waterbed. What would you say to this African/Japanese/Indian man to convert him, how would you make him feel the urgency of converting? This false "Catholic" Church now is an indefinable SOMETHING, held together by vague self-worship ( 666, the cult of man ) and feel-good vibes, barely any different than an Agape Church.
I know this all to well.
There is no urgency to it, no feeling that you must NECESSARILY accept its teachings for your salvation. No one even knows what its teachings are anymore -- except that the one sin is to be traditional! The Vatican II "priests" and "bishops" all, to a man, try to encourage this relativism and apathy. That is why they stop people from kneeling or being reverent in any way. It's why they harass people who want a Latin Mass and then give them a fake one to shut them up.
I've had a lot of experience with family members discouraging me to go to Latin Mass.
DeMaistre, don't tangle yourself up. If you go back into this non-Church, this impostor Church, this creature of alchemy and taxidermy, you can no longer say it is the ONE true Church because the new non-Popes themselves do not even teach that! Follow your own logic to its conclusion. If these are Popes you must believe their teaching. But to try to follow their teaching and still remain Catholic is an impossibility.
The devil wants you to be as schizophrenic as he is and anyone remaining with these non-Popes must be necessarily that -- DOUBLE-MINDED and TWO-FACED. Hence, Vatican TWO is in direct opposition with the ONE Catholic Church, who must be the sedevacantists. We know the Church will last until the end, but we also know that almost no one will be left who still keeps the faith ( "When the Son of Man returns to Earth, will He find faith?" )
I realise that, that is why I am having trouble reconciling the St. Catherine quote with the current situation.
The reason why so few believe the truth, is because the truth is so unbelievable. Could all these people really be deluded? What about that nice girl who fixes roast beef sandwiches at Subway, is she going to burn eternally? What about all those pretty young couples, aren't they innocent? And all those people in Africa, in Asia?
I've been thinking of that lately, and it is amazing isn't it? That almost everybody that you meet will go to Hell.
Make no mistake -- what is happening is HIGHLY disturbing and sickening. Words cannot express just how awful it is. But this is the hour of the devil, prophesied from all eternity. It doesn't mean that God isn't fair. Think -- ANY of these people could do what we're doing and research. They have the Internet. They know about traditional Catholics from Mel Gibson.
NO ONE CARES. HUMANITY IS IN REBELLION.
You must understand that we wouldn't BE here unless, over centuries, people had ceased to pay attention to the truth. First they want relaxed rules. Then they want to believe that all men are saved. Eventually they are piling one mortal sin on top of the other without fear. And then it's over. "Therefore God shall send them the operation of error, to believe lying."
Here you are completely right. No one cares about religion anymore. Even the seemingly "pious" ones often give one hand to the world.
You worry about the people in Asia. But what about all the Asian people here? Why are you one of the handful of Vietnamese sedevacantists? Because THEY DON'T CARE. I am Polish-Spanish: Why are the Poles, this great Catholic people, literally kissing the star of David on a Jєωιѕн tombstone of a "h0Ɩ0cαųst" victim after filing out of "Church" ( they do this in Poland )? THEY DON'T CARE. Why have the Spanish, another great Catholic nation, less than one hundred years after the glorious Spanish cινιℓ ωαr, become nothing but a nation of fornicators and club-hoppers? THEY DON'T CARE.
I agree. But in Viet Nam, infidels are converting to the Novus Ordo faith in great numbers, some walking for days on end to go to "Mass" on Holy Days. Recently there were massive Catholic protests in Ha Noi (wait no, about a year ago) that was shut down by who? That Vatican. I mean, if I actually learned my language to enough to translate a few books into Vietnamese, and find a way to distribute them, then I am sure that I can convert more than a few people. Wait until they know that these men are Communists that have sold them out.
This is the mystery of iniquity, of apostasy. Take it from me. I thought I was going to save the world until I understood. You cannot stop it. It is part of God's plan. We can't interfere, we can't change anything. We are here to observe, to pray and to suffer -- that is it.
You job is also to evangelize. I'm not out to save the world, just to try to help people of good will that live under the spiritual fog that is so common today.
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By the way, I have bookmarked Catholic Tradition under my favorites. While there, I noticed the complete quote from St. Catherine. Very sobering. She corrected the Pope, firmly, yet as a loving daughter. A lesson there for all of us: sedes, SSPXers, and disaffected exiles in Novus Ordo land.
God bless!
Thank you! Its still a work in progress. I need to finish adding all the sermons of the Cure d'Ars and then work on adding more writings and lives of the Saints. It takes a long time. I'm also going to give it a face-lift soon....
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I changed the URL, by the way:
http://mementomori1994.blogspot.com/
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BUT TEACHING HERESY PERSISTENTLY HE CANNOT EVEN BE CATHOLIC. Let alone the Pope.
And yet Benedict XV somehow is, in your mind.
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St. Catherine (assuming that the quote attributed to her is accurate) is not saying that we must obey a bad pope in everything, whether he is carving up and eating golden retriever puppies or saying that Jєωs and Muslims worship the same God as Catholics.
If you think these are in the same or remotely similar categories, your mind is mush. Come to think of it, so is BXVI's, so it all fits.
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Sorry, p.dino, but I get tired of people unnecessarily mixing things up in an already difficult hour.
Fornicating six ways to Sunday, all over Rome, is not - NOT - the same as teaching in a public docuмent that the Jєωs' wait for the Messias is not in vain, etc. Cheerio.
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Hosting slumber parties for boy-toys in the Vatican apartments, for example, is NOT on the same level as hosting the 1986 abomination at Assisi.
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Exactly, gladius. But I thank God every day for dogmatic statements like Lumen Gentium, and the invalid Holy Orders, and invalid Mass, because without them we'd have to go to Church with everyone else and take the host from child-molesters.
Sometimes I feel sorry for Donatists, at least the first generation of them, because they were being asked to go to Church with bishops who had sold out their families and gotten many Catholics killed and mutilated. But EVEN THEN we have to be obedient. Even if a priest gives up the location of your mother to a communist out of fear, and she ends up being torn apart with wire pincers, as long as he holds the faith, he is still a priest. You can't start your own church and say "These priests have all sold-out."
Immorality and heresy are two different things. That being said, though immorality has been rampant in the Church before, there IS a connection between this deeper level of sin, this running theme of pederasty, and the heresy of Vatican II. These Vatican II "priests" are what you might call "totally abandoned." They know they have crossed the line and are on their way to hell, and this is what makes them so unafraid of the most vile blasphemies.
These are the sort of men who aren't "screened-out" of the hiring process to be priests. You know who is screened-out? Anyone who says the priest is primary and the laity is secondary; or who wants to remind people emphatically of the principle of transubstantiation; or anyone who might wake the flock up to tradition and truth. Think of that incident where "Bishop" Tod Brown of Orange County walked right past a woman who was kneeling to receive fake-communion. Oh boy, do these sneering ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs HATE God, because they refuse to try to live up to his laws.
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But I thank God every day for dogmatic statements like Lumen Gentium, and the invalid Holy Orders, and invalid Mass, because without them we'd have to go to Church with everyone else and take the host from child-molesters.
You have some very strange and uncatholic ideas on what being a faithful, obedient catholic entails.
Sometimes I feel sorry for Donatists
That explains alot.
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But I thank God every day for dogmatic statements like Lumen Gentium, and the invalid Holy Orders, and invalid Mass, because without them we'd have to go to Church with everyone else and take the host from child-molesters.
You know Caminus, I've been trying to understand just what the heck he is saying here, and I can't seem to figure it out.
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Nevermind, I get it. He's saying (I think) that in God's mercy, he allowed some of the attempts at deception by the devil to be so overtly clear as to expose himself so that some people would see the truth.