Author Topic: To all the "sedes"  (Read 3052 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline DeMaistre

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 343
  • Reputation: +15/-0
  • Gender: Male
To all the "sedes"
« on: June 20, 2009, 01:34:56 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • We must all abjure from our schism. Our position is indefensible.

    Even if the Pope were Satan incarnate, we ought not to raise our heads against him, but calmly lie down to rest on his bosom. He who rebels against our Father is condemned to death, for that which we do to him we do to Christ: we honour Christ if we honour the Pope; we dishonour Christ if we dishonour the Pope. I know very well that many defend themselves by boasting: "They are so corrupt, and work all manner of evil!" But God has commanded that, even if the priests, the pastors, and Christ-on-earth were incarnate devils, we be obedient and subject to them, not for their sakes, but for the sake of God, and out of obedience to Him. ~ Saint Catherine of Sienna

    I realise that I have lost all my standing now, but I must follow Christ and not men. I apologise for my arrogance.

    Offline gladius_veritatis

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 6172
    • Reputation: +1234/-0
    • Gender: Male
    To all the "sedes"
    « Reply #1 on: June 20, 2009, 02:49:41 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • What "standing"?  We are ALL non-entities.  Your business is your own.  God speed.
    + Vincit veritas +


    Offline gladius_veritatis

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 6172
    • Reputation: +1234/-0
    • Gender: Male
    To all the "sedes"
    « Reply #2 on: June 20, 2009, 02:52:12 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: DeMaistre
    Even if the Pope were Satan incarnate, we ought not to raise our heads against him, but calmly lie down to rest on his bosom.


    Very eloquent (although a bit foolish, taken as literal advice), but not ad rem.  It is not that I rebel against the one I take to be the Pontiff, I do not believe he IS the Pontiff.  See?  God speed.
    + Vincit veritas +

    Offline Raoul76

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4814
    • Reputation: +2007/-4
    • Gender: Male
    To all the "sedes"
    « Reply #3 on: June 20, 2009, 02:52:45 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • The undertow is strong, isn't it, DeMaistre?  

    St. Catherine of Siena again, and I've said this a billion times about those who talk about supporting the Pope at any cost, was referring to a Pope's moral failings.  That means if Ratzinger was carving up golden retriever puppies in public and eating their corpses raw, he would still be Pope.  I'm being emphatic so you understand.  

    BUT TEACHING HERESY PERSISTENTLY HE CANNOT EVEN BE CATHOLIC.  Let alone the Pope.  The Pope was either Siri or he was never even elected.

    Do you recall the sections of the Bible where the Man of Sin sits in the temple of God?  Do you recall Daniel talking about the abomination of desolation?  Do you recall Jesus saying "When therefore you shall see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place: he that readeth let him understand.  Then they that are in Judea, let them flee to the mountains. And he that is on the housetop, let him not come down to take any thing out of his house.  And he that is in the field, let him not go back to take his coat."

    Do you think Catherine of Siena would worship the Man of Sin, a figure of the Man of the Sin, or a precursor of the Man of Sin?  This is not the Pope.  It is an agent of Satan who sits in the Holy Place as a THIEF.  It is part of the necessary mystery of the ages that an agent of Satan ( or more than one ) sit in the throne of Peter.  This is just like the Arian crisis all over again with one notable exception -- during that crisis, the Pope held the faith.

    You are young and I'm sure you will go up and down on this many times.  But keep in mind, you are going back to get your cloak.  I hope the world doesn't end while you are in full spiritual backslide mode.  You have no idea how lucky you are ( or were ) to have even brushed against the truth.  I urge you not to be hasty.  

    God speed and God bless.  
    As I was a new convert when posting here, my posts are often full of error, even unwitting heresy and rash judgment, all of which I renounce, and all my writings are best avoided -- MDLS

    Offline Raoul76

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4814
    • Reputation: +2007/-4
    • Gender: Male
    To all the "sedes"
    « Reply #4 on: June 20, 2009, 02:56:01 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Correction:

    When I say "That means if Ratzinger was carving up golden retriever puppies in public and eating their corpses raw, he would still be Pope" I actually meant --

    "That means that if a hypothetical validly elected Pope were carving up golden retriever puppies in public and eating their corpses raw, he would still be Pope. "
    As I was a new convert when posting here, my posts are often full of error, even unwitting heresy and rash judgment, all of which I renounce, and all my writings are best avoided -- MDLS


    Offline Raoul76

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4814
    • Reputation: +2007/-4
    • Gender: Male
    To all the "sedes"
    « Reply #5 on: June 20, 2009, 03:06:41 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I shouldn't have flown off the handle like that.  DeMaistre, do you care to elucidate what happened between today and yesterday, when you were flinging words like "apostate" at Ratzinger?

    You sympathize rightly with the many people of the Asian lands who are under Ratzinger.  Are you terrified by the idea that these masses of Asians are doomed and you cannot believe this is true?  I've heard of this happening before.  People just lose the ability to believe that SO MANY people are in a delusion and lost.  But we read in Daniel that towards the end the devil will prosper to an extent that is unbelievable.  He will have power over all the nations.

    There are sede enclaves in Japan and for all we know there are also enclaves in China and Vietnam as well.  Need I remind you that it was a Vietnamese man, Abp. Thuc, who was one of the fiercest opponents of the heretics?  

    Let the dead bury their dead -- you can't save those in China or anywhere else by throwing yourself away.  God gave you extraordinary graces and you are stomping on them.
    As I was a new convert when posting here, my posts are often full of error, even unwitting heresy and rash judgment, all of which I renounce, and all my writings are best avoided -- MDLS

    Offline Prodinoscopus

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 149
    • Reputation: +12/-0
    To all the "sedes"
    « Reply #6 on: June 20, 2009, 09:56:32 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Wow.

    Ok, DeMaistre, you told me to slow down the other day. Now, believe it or not, I'm going to caution you to do the same.

    I know that it's very tempting to make grand public resolutions in these forums -- I've done it many times.  I'm very good at projecting my inner dramas. It's probably not a harmful thing, yet it is an exercise with limited value. At best, it helps us to think things through and get (sometimes) helpful feedback; at worst, it feeds our vanity. Something to think about.  What would St. Alphonsus say?

    I believe that you said that you've embraced the sede position for only a few weeks, which means that your "reversion" was only somewhat less quick than mine (a matter of weeks, rather than days).  If you "revert" back to sedevacantism in the next 24 hours, I won't hold it against you.

    These are confusing times. Practice the virtues, keep the Faith.

    Take your mind off the sede debate for a while by praying the Act of Reparation to the Sacred Heart of Jesus:

    http://www.preces-latinae.org/thesaurus/Filius/ActusRep.html
    Exile in Novus Ordo land ... please pray for me!

    Offline Prodinoscopus

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 149
    • Reputation: +12/-0
    To all the "sedes"
    « Reply #7 on: June 20, 2009, 02:28:59 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • DeMaistre, I've had a further think about all of this, and would offer the following point of view.

    If the reality turns out to be that the Holy See is filled and the Pope (for better or for worse) is Benedict XVI, then you do not want death to find you a member of a sedevacantist chapel. If that happens, you will die in schism and you will go to hell.  If you die in schism, all of your piety, orthodoxy, and good works will not be able to save you.

    Raoul76 & Co. want you to believe that they alone see reality, and that the reality is that Benedict XVI is an agent of the devil and an anti-pope. By what authority do they make this most disturbing claim? They will say that it is by the authority of the infallible magisterium prior to Vatican II (or prior to 1914, according to CM). All that it takes, they will tell you, is a common sense application of the infallible magisterium to the present situation, and voila! -- Benedict XVI is proven a manifest and pertinacious heretic and the sedevacantist thesis becomes instantly binding on your conscience.  If you do not subscribe to the sedevacantist thesis, you follow a heretic anti-pope and are a willing thrall of Satan. Worse yet, you divert needed funds from Raoul76's coffers. :-)

    Now, stop right there and pay very close attention to what I'm about to say.

    The ultimate authority behind the sedevacantist position is the infallible magisterium as reflected in the teachings of Holy Mother Church prior to Vatican II (or prior to 1914, according to CM). However, the proximate authority behind the sedevacantist position -- by the sedes' own admission -- is common sense.  "Of course Benedict XVI is a heretic anti-pope! It's common sense! If you cannot see it, you are culpable and guilty of grave sin!"

    Such is the "authority" behind the sedevacantist position. What is the authority behind the anti-sedevacantist position? I submit that both the ultimate and proximate authority behind Benedict XVI's claim to legitimacy is ... Benedict XVI himself, i.e., the man who was elected by conclave and claims thereby to be the real successor of St. Peter. In the absence of a rival claimant to the Chair of Peter (a rival who emerged from the same conclave as Benedict XVI), no one else can claim proximate authority in the name of Our Lord Jesus Christ to settle the matter of whether Benedict XVI is a valid Pope.

    Upon what authority do you want to stake your eternal salvation? (Remember what becomes of your immortal soul if in objective reality you die in a state of schism.) Do you choose the authority of the one man who claims (and has the act of a conclave to back up the claim) to be the rightful successor of St. Peter, or do you choose the "common sense" of Raoul76 & Co.?
    Exile in Novus Ordo land ... please pray for me!


    Offline Dawn

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2439
    • Reputation: +45/-0
    • Gender: Female
      • h
    To all the "sedes"
    « Reply #8 on: June 20, 2009, 05:05:13 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Hold on. Do any of you really think that St. Catherine ever could have contemplated men such as these who aid and cover up for beasts raping little boys in the confessional? Such men who would tell the Chinese underground to bow down and worship Satan's own religion of Communism? She would never tell us to follow these men for they are leading souls to hell.

    Offline roscoe

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 7155
    • Reputation: +457/-217
    • Gender: Male
    To all the "sedes"
    « Reply #9 on: June 20, 2009, 05:18:11 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: DeMaistre
    We must all abjure from our schism. Our position is indefensible.

    Even if the Pope were Satan incarnate, we ought not to raise our heads against him, but calmly lie down to rest on his bosom. He who rebels against our Father is condemned to death, for that which we do to him we do to Christ: we honour Christ if we honour the Pope; we dishonour Christ if we dishonour the Pope. I know very well that many defend themselves by boasting: "They are so corrupt, and work all manner of evil!" But God has commanded that, even if the priests, the pastors, and Christ-on-earth were incarnate devils, we be obedient and subject to them, not for their sakes, but for the sake of God, and out of obedience to Him. ~ Saint Catherine of Sienna

    I realise that I have lost all my standing now, but I must follow Christ and not men. I apologise for my arrogance.
    Could someone put correct quote marks around the words of St Catherine so it is clear whar she actually said.
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'

    Offline Prodinoscopus

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 149
    • Reputation: +12/-0
    To all the "sedes"
    « Reply #10 on: June 20, 2009, 05:22:18 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: St. Catherine of Siena
    Foolish then, is he who departs from the Vicar of Christ Crucified, who has the keys of the Blood, or who goes against him ... Even though the pope were satan incarnate himself, I may not lift up my head against him, but I must always humble myself, and beg for the Blood as a mercy, for in no other wise can I obtain a part of it ...

    "Satan incarnate himself" -- that characterization would include just about any evil thing, don't you think?

    Unfortunately, I cannot provide an exact citation for the above quote, and therefore I'm not able to fully vouch for its authenticity.  I've seen it a number of times.  Perhaps someone else can provide a citation.

    The quote is often used by "conservative" Catholics against SSPXers, the argument being that you cannot say anything critical about the Pope.
    Exile in Novus Ordo land ... please pray for me!


    Offline Dulcamara

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1067
    • Reputation: +38/-0
    • Gender: Female
    To all the "sedes"
    « Reply #11 on: June 20, 2009, 09:04:16 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: DeMaistre
    We must all abjure from our schism. Our position is indefensible.

    Even if the Pope were Satan incarnate, we ought not to raise our heads against him, but calmly lie down to rest on his bosom. He who rebels against our Father is condemned to death, for that which we do to him we do to Christ: we honour Christ if we honour the Pope; we dishonour Christ if we dishonour the Pope. I know very well that many defend themselves by boasting: "They are so corrupt, and work all manner of evil!" But God has commanded that, even if the priests, the pastors, and Christ-on-earth were incarnate devils, we be obedient and subject to them, not for their sakes, but for the sake of God, and out of obedience to Him. ~ Saint Catherine of Sienna

    I realise that I have lost all my standing now, but I must follow Christ and not men. I apologise for my arrogance.


     :applause:  :dancing-banana:  :applause:

    Congrats on your decision.

    Indeed in the Bible we read something like that, too. It is easy to throw the baby out with the bathwater, and especially when it brings shame on us all the way so many have been acting in Rome... however, that doesn't do away with their office, and while it may be hard to swallow that distinction, the office and authority are from God, even if men sometimes soil them by bad lives.

    It's a bitter and humiliating thing to follow (in all that is RIGHT, not sinful) a hierarchy that behaves as this one does... but then there is the matter of the office or authority, and that is another matter. However it helps to remember that no one has the authority to command us to sin. Thus, we need not obey any sinful commands or suggestions, regardless of the office. (Thus, we aren't bound to be NO Catholics.) As for the humiliation of being associated with men who do such things as these have, it helps to remember the cross, and the humiliations of Christ being condemned like a criminal.

    As for looking down on you or thinking less of you... I wouldn't "triumph" over or look down on anyone who turns out of the sede path. Rather, I would give thanks to God that another person has chosen well by His grace. Which one of us has never been wrong? Let him who is without sin cast the first stone. Personally, I hope every sede reconsiders, as much as I hope every non-Catholic reconsiders. I want everyone to go to heaven and to live the holiest possible life on earth, and to possess as much of the truth as possible even in this life. I would have no joy or glee in knowing any soul persevered in anything else and perhaps endangered or lost their souls. (THAT would be pride... and the worst kind. To wish someone damnation.)

    Hope you persevere in your decision. God will give you the strength, I'm sure. But if it weren't for the same grace, who knows what any one of us might believe. We could have been atheists even!

    I renounce any and all of my former views against what the Church through Pope Leo XIII said, "This, then, is the teaching of the Catholic Church ...no one of the several forms of government is in itself condemned, inasmuch as none of them contains anythi

    Offline DeMaistre

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 343
    • Reputation: +15/-0
    • Gender: Male
    To all the "sedes"
    « Reply #12 on: June 20, 2009, 09:26:48 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote
    I shouldn't have flown off the handle like that. DeMaistre, do you care to elucidate what happened between today and yesterday, when you were flinging words like "apostate" at Ratzinger?


    I've been torn between the two paths for a long time. I've also had a very rough...and equally sinful night.

    Quote
    You sympathize rightly with the many people of the Asian lands who are under Ratzinger. Are you terrified by the idea that these masses of Asians are doomed and you cannot believe this is true? I've heard of this happening before. People just lose the ability to believe that SO MANY people are in a delusion and lost. But we read in Daniel that towards the end the devil will prosper to an extent that is unbelievable. He will have power over all the nations.


    Yes, and its disgusting. I wish that today, there was some visible enemy, so that we could take up the cross and go to war with them, but it is not so. The only weapon that can be wielded against this enemy is prayer.

    Quote
    There are sede enclaves in Japan and for all we know there are also enclaves in China and Vietnam as well. Need I remind you that it was a Vietnamese man, Abp. Thuc, who was one of the fiercest opponents of the heretics?


    I am particularly proud of His Lordship, and His Lordship's brother, Ngo Dinh Diem, who was the best leader Viet Nam ever had. He had Viet Nam consecrated to the Sacred Heart and held the Catholic Faith as the only priveledged religion of the state.

    Quote
    Let the dead bury their dead -- you can't save those in China or anywhere else by throwing yourself away. God gave you extraordinary graces and you are stomping on them.


    What is from God? Was it me "converting" to sedevacantism? Was it me reconsidering now? How can I know?

    Quote
    I know that it's very tempting to make grand public resolutions in these forums -- I've done it many times.  I'm very good at projecting my inner dramas. It's probably not a harmful thing, yet it is an exercise with limited value. At best, it helps us to think things through and get (sometimes) helpful feedback; at worst, it feeds our vanity. Something to think about.  What would St. Alphonsus say?


    Its not about vanity. St. Alphonsus would say that I am horrible sinner and that I will go to Hell if I don't change.


    Quote
    Hold on. Do any of you really think that St. Catherine ever could have contemplated men such as these who aid and cover up for beasts raping little boys in the confessional? Such men who would tell the Chinese underground to bow down and worship Satan's own religion of Communism? She would never tell us to follow these men for they are leading souls to hell.


    I've been saying all along that these men, Ratzinger, Benedict XVI, whoever he is, I have no idea anymore, are quite literally incarnate devils. I used to believe that Paul VI was literally either possesed by countless demons or an incarnate devil. St. Catherine is saying that even if the pope were Satan incarnate, we would still have to obey him, not for his sake but for God's.

    This is so confusing. The evidence for the heresy of these men is so evident, and Canon Law says that they are excommunicated. They are anti-popes, maybe even demons, but I must bow my head and submit to them.

    Offline Prodinoscopus

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 149
    • Reputation: +12/-0
    To all the "sedes"
    « Reply #13 on: June 20, 2009, 11:08:45 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • DeMaistre,

    St. Catherine (assuming that the quote attributed to her is accurate) is not saying that we must obey a bad pope in everything, whether he is carving up and eating golden retriever puppies or saying that Jews and Muslims worship the same God as Catholics. She says, rather, that we must never lift up our head against him. That is, we must be humble in his presence, because he is Christ's Vicar on earth, no matter what a scoundrel he might be. If we feel compelled to correct an erring Pope, we should do so with our eyes averted.

    I think that you're on the right track here.  Stay the course!

     :pray:
    Exile in Novus Ordo land ... please pray for me!

    Offline Prodinoscopus

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 149
    • Reputation: +12/-0
    To all the "sedes"
    « Reply #14 on: June 20, 2009, 11:24:06 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • By the way, I have bookmarked Catholic Tradition under my favorites.  While there, I noticed the complete quote from St. Catherine.  Very sobering.  She corrected the Pope, firmly, yet as a loving daughter.  A lesson there for all of us: sedes, SSPXers, and disaffected exiles in Novus Ordo land.

    God bless!
    Exile in Novus Ordo land ... please pray for me!

     

    Sitemap 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16