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Author Topic: Sedevacantist Ecclesiology and Protestant Ecclesiology are IDENTICAL  (Read 2506 times)

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Offline DigitalLogos

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Re: Sedevacantist Ecclesiology and Protestant Ecclesiology are IDENTICAL
« Reply #45 on: May 20, 2022, 11:39:00 AM »
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  • And that's without even wandering into the hole of what "faith faileth not" means.

    DR

    Maybe we should read some Scripture commentaries by the Fathers and Doctors rather than try and figure it out for ourselves?

    Cornelius a Lapide on Luke 22:31
    Quote
    Another and a certain privilege was common to Peter with all his successors, that he and all the other bishops of Rome (for Peter, as Christ willed, founded and confirmed the Pontifical Church at Rome), should never openly fall from this faith, so as to teach the Church heresy, or any error, contrary to the faith. So S. Leo (serm. xxii.), on Natalis of SS. Peter and Paul; S. Cyprian (Lib. i. ep. 3), to Cornelius; Lucius I., Felix I., Agatho, Nicolas I., Leo IX., Innocent III., Bernard and others, whom Bellarmine cites and follows (Lib. i. de Pontif. Roman). For it was necessary that Christ, by His most wise providence, should provide for His Church, which is ever being sifted and tempted by the devil, and that not only in the time of Peter, but at all times henceforth, even to the end of the world, an oracle of the true faith which she might consult in every doubt, and by which she might be taught and confirmed in the faith, otherwise the Church might err in faith, quod absit! For she is, as S. Paul said to Timothy, “the pillar and ground of the truth” (1 Tim. 3:15). This oracle of the Church then is Peter, and all successive bishops of Rome. This promise made to Peter and his successors, most especially applies to the time when Peter, as the successor of Christ, began to be the head of the Church, that is, after the death of Christ.
    Note how it says nothing about infallibility or ex cathedra, but his teaching in general.
    "For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears:" [2 Tim. 4:3]

    O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding the profane novelties of words, and oppositions of knowledge falsely so called. [1 Tim. 6:20]

    Offline Sir Percival

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    Re: Sedevacantist Ecclesiology and Protestant Ecclesiology are IDENTICAL
    « Reply #46 on: May 20, 2022, 12:52:11 PM »
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  • Maybe we should read some Scripture commentaries by the Fathers and Doctors rather than try and figure it out for ourselves?

    Cornelius a Lapide on Luke 22:31Note how it says nothing about infallibility or ex cathedra, but his teaching in general.

    Yessiree. The Church cannot teach major error or heresy in Her authentic magisterium, but she also cannot defect in the way that some Sedevacantists imply; especially Totalists.

    As Papa Pio NoNo said about the heretical & schismatic Old Catholics:

    “Incredibly, they boldly affirm that the Roman Pontiff and all the bishops, the priests and the people conjoined with him in the unity of faith and communion fell into heresy when they approved and professed the definitions of the Ecuмenical Vatican Council. Therefore they deny also the indefectibility of the Church and blasphemously declare that it has perished throughout the world and that its visible Head and the bishops have erred. They assert the necessity of restoring a legitimate episcopacy in the person of their pseudo-bishop, who has entered not by the gate but from elsewhere like a thief or robber and calls the damnation of Christ upon his head.”

    Totalists Sedevacantist ecclesiology is simply not tenable. In fact, it’s impossible.

    The only way to reconcile Traditional ecclesiology with indefectibility in teaching is by adhering to a variation of Msgr. Lefebvre’s Conciliar church/eclipse hypothesis like Fr. Chazal’s Sedeimpoundism or Msgr. Des Lauriers’ Cassiciacuм Thesis.

    Objectively considered, Recognize and Resist outside of the above paradigm and Totalist Sedevacantism are both worthy of being condemned as heretical comedy bordering on the insane.
    “How can the ignorant teach others? How can the licentious make others modest? And how can the impure make others pure? If anyone hates peace, how can he make others peaceable ? Or if anyone has soiled his hands with baseness, how can he cleanse the impurities of another? We read also that if the blind lead the blind, both will fall into the ditch [Matt. 15:14]. But first correct yourselves, in order that, free from blame , you may be able to correct those who are subject to you.”

    Pope Urban II


    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Sedevacantist Ecclesiology and Protestant Ecclesiology are IDENTICAL
    « Reply #47 on: May 20, 2022, 02:10:43 PM »
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  • Totalists Sedevacantist ecclesiology is simply not tenable. In fact, it’s impossible.

    The only way to reconcile Traditional ecclesiology with indefectibility in teaching is by adhering to a variation of Msgr. Lefebvre’s Conciliar church/eclipse hypothesis like Fr. Chazal’s Sedeimpoundism or Msgr. Des Lauriers’ Cassiciacuм Thesis.

    Objectively considered, Recognize and Resist outside of the above paradigm and Totalist Sedevacantism are both worthy of being condemned as heretical comedy bordering on the insane.
    Completely agree. Hence why I hold to the Cassiciacuм thesis.
    "For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears:" [2 Tim. 4:3]

    O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding the profane novelties of words, and oppositions of knowledge falsely so called. [1 Tim. 6:20]

    Online 2Vermont

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    Re: Sedevacantist Ecclesiology and Protestant Ecclesiology are IDENTICAL
    « Reply #48 on: May 20, 2022, 03:09:04 PM »
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  • Lots of rhetorical slashing and thrashing.

    I hope someone will mention some Scripture here.

    No, it wasn't.  Catholic teaching is based on Scripture AND Sacred Tradition.  
    "For there is not any thing secret that shall not be made manifest, nor hidden, that shall not be known and come abroad."- Luke 8:17

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Sedevacantist Ecclesiology and Protestant Ecclesiology are IDENTICAL
    « Reply #49 on: May 20, 2022, 04:46:13 PM »
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  • Yessiree. The Church cannot teach major error or heresy in Her authentic magisterium, but she also cannot defect in the way that some Sedevacantists imply; especially Totalists.

    As Papa Pio NoNo said about the heretical & schismatic Old Catholics:

    “Incredibly, they boldly affirm that the Roman Pontiff and all the bishops, the priests and the people conjoined with him in the unity of faith and communion fell into heresy when they approved and professed the definitions of the Ecuмenical Vatican Council. Therefore they deny also the indefectibility of the Church and blasphemously declare that it has perished throughout the world and that its visible Head and the bishops have erred. They assert the necessity of restoring a legitimate episcopacy in the person of their pseudo-bishop, who has entered not by the gate but from elsewhere like a thief or robber and calls the damnation of Christ upon his head.”

    Totalists Sedevacantist ecclesiology is simply not tenable. In fact, it’s impossible.

    The only way to reconcile Traditional ecclesiology with indefectibility in teaching is by adhering to a variation of Msgr. Lefebvre’s Conciliar church/eclipse hypothesis like Fr. Chazal’s Sedeimpoundism or Msgr. Des Lauriers’ Cassiciacuм Thesis.

    Objectively considered, Recognize and Resist outside of the above paradigm and Totalist Sedevacantism are both worthy of being condemned as heretical comedy bordering on the insane.


    Vatican II and the "Conciliar revolution" should have taught us that the Emperor has no clothes. 

    Yet the Emperor sans his clothes is still the Emperor of an Empire. 
    Non enim omnes qui ex Israel sunt, ii sunt Israelitae (Roman 9:6)


    Offline Sir Percival

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    Re: Sedevacantist Ecclesiology and Protestant Ecclesiology are IDENTICAL
    « Reply #50 on: May 20, 2022, 05:11:15 PM »
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  • Vatican II and the "Conciliar revolution" should have taught us that the Emperor has no clothes.

    Yet the Emperor sans his clothes is still the Emperor of an Empire.



    Nah. Analogy doesn’t work. Two different paradigms of operation. Reminds me of the bad dad analogy.

    Here’s a better one instead: Imagine your dad telling you that he is unable to teach you error all of your life from the day you reach the age of reason. You grow up believing this and as you look around you, all of the other dads are manifestly in major error while your dad has never taught you anything except what is in accord with right reason. Even your friends and acquaintances can attest to this; indeed, anyone who sees your dad says the same.

    One day, your always beautiful and strong father comes in to your room, but he looks much different. Darkened, ugly, and putrified you can’t tell that it’s him. The stench alone makes it difficult to be in the same room and his sight so hideous that you feel nauseous to gaze at him. Suddenly, in an ugly and painful voice to hear, he tells you that what he taught you before was wrong. What he conveyed to you a few years ago was simply not true and that he is not able to teach error was a lie. You are confused because you are not sure that it’s him. In fact, you are sure that it cannot be him. Everything is different on one random day. So manifestly different that you are certain it cannot be the same man. No sickness can produce such a grotesque phenomenon. Nothing has remained similar; not countenance, nor voice, nor smell, nor action, nor speech, nor anything you were accustomed to. It is an essential & substantial change to his very nature; not accidental. Indeed, not even lore can explain it. No mere man to werewolf or human to vampire. The thing itself is something else in itself.

    Here you have two options: Believe the clear imposter that he is your dad simply because he had the key to come in to your room or come to the rational conclusion that he is a fake and phony menace who wishes to harm you.

    Sanely, I take the latter option.
    “How can the ignorant teach others? How can the licentious make others modest? And how can the impure make others pure? If anyone hates peace, how can he make others peaceable ? Or if anyone has soiled his hands with baseness, how can he cleanse the impurities of another? We read also that if the blind lead the blind, both will fall into the ditch [Matt. 15:14]. But first correct yourselves, in order that, free from blame , you may be able to correct those who are subject to you.”

    Pope Urban II

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Sedevacantist Ecclesiology and Protestant Ecclesiology are IDENTICAL
    « Reply #51 on: May 20, 2022, 05:27:48 PM »
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  • Nah. Analogy doesn’t work. Two different paradigms of operation. Reminds me of the bad dad analogy.

    Here’s a better one instead: Imagine your dad telling you that he is unable to teach you error all of your life from the day you reach the age of reason. You grow up believing this and as you look around you, all of the other dads are manifestly in major error while your dad has never taught you anything except what is in accord with right reason. Even your friends and acquaintances can attest to this; indeed, anyone who sees your dad says the same.

    One day, your always beautiful and strong father comes in to your room, but he looks much different. Darkened, ugly, and putrified you can’t tell that it’s him. The stench alone makes it difficult to be in the same room and his sight so hideous that you feel nauseous to gaze at him. Suddenly, in an ugly and painful voice to hear, he tells you that what he taught you before was wrong. What he conveyed to you a few years ago was simply not true and that he is not able to teach error was a lie. You are confused because you are not sure that it’s him. In fact, you are sure that it cannot be him. Everything is different on one random day. So manifestly different that you are certain it cannot be the same man. No sickness can produce such a grotesque phenomenon. Nothing has remained similar; not countenance, nor voice, nor smell, nor action, nor speech, nor anything you were accustomed to. It is an essential change to his very nature; not accidental.

    Here you have two options: Believe the clear imposter that he is your dad simply because he had the key to come in to your room or come to the rational conclusion that he is a fake and phony menace who wishes to harm you.

    Sanely, I take the latter option.

    It works as to indefectibility and infallibility I think.

    Your analogy's not bad. I'll give you one as well.

    A man sells you a car and says, "this car will NEVER get a flat." You buy the car.

    A few thousand miles later, you notice the right front tire is really worn and needs to be replaced. You take it in to a mechanic, and he puts a new tire on.

    The next day, you're on your way to an important meeting, and you get a flat in the new right tire.

    You go back to the man who sold you the car, and you say, "Hey, I got a new tire on the car and I got a flat the next day."

    The guy tells you, "that mechanic didn't put a real tire on the car."

    But he simply told you that "this car will NEVER get a flat."

    He has an explanation, but he sold you a car that got a flat, a car that he told you would never get a flat.
    Non enim omnes qui ex Israel sunt, ii sunt Israelitae (Roman 9:6)

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Sedevacantist Ecclesiology and Protestant Ecclesiology are IDENTICAL
    « Reply #52 on: May 21, 2022, 09:29:07 AM »
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  • Completely agree. Hence why I hold to the Cassiciacuм thesis.

    Yes, Cassiciacuм makes perfect sense and solves nearly all the legitimate difficulties with straight sedevacantism.  Father Chazal's position is also strong ... and only different in subtle nuance from sedeprivationism.  Father Chazal emphasizes the material possession of office, whereas most sedeprivationists emphasize the formal vacancy.  But it's just two views of the same thing.  Bergoglio (et al.) deprived of all teaching authority while remaining in possession of the office and possibly some aspects of jurisdiction (able to make appointments, etc.)  If Bergoglio can make appointments and those who hold the office can have formal authority if not impeded by their own heresy, eccelsiavacantism problem with (objection to) SV completely evaporates.

    NOTE:  Father Chazal denies this because he does not want to be seen as "sedevacantist", but I have seen no convincing argument that his position is any different other than in emphasis.  In his video introducing Sede-impoundism, he emphasizes that Bergoglio is indeed a manifest heretic and thereby is impounded and has NO authority, that he can and must be entirely ignored.  Classic R&R holds that he still has authority, which must be obeyed when it's not in opposition to Tradition.  It's more of an ad hoc disobedience to specific commannds, whereas both SPism and Sedeimpoundism hold that he categorically lacks the authority.

    Both classic R&R and (what LOT called) "pure" Sedevacantism have legitimate serious issues, which these groups have been fond of pointing out about one another.  SPism solves both sets of complaints.  Beside that, Bishop Guerard was a if not THE top theologian in the Church prior to Vatican II, so I love it when people attack him and characterize his theory as "idiotic".  Nor did he invent the formal vs. material distinction regarding the papacy; it can be found in St. Robert Bellarmine and many other theologians.

    I actually believe that Archbishop Lefebvre was closer to impoundism than to what R&R has morphed into.  He emphatically stated that this degree of destruction cannot happen, since the Papacy is guided by the Holy Spirit (which most modern R&R reject), thinks SVism is possible, but defers to the Church for the final solution and filled with hostility toward the other side, often moreso than toward the Modernist occupiers of the Church.

    When Father Chazal came out with his position, I was hoping that it might be a bridge between the SV and R&R camps, but it hasn't worked out that way as many SVs and R&Rs are dogmatically entrenched in their respective positions.


    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Sedevacantist Ecclesiology and Protestant Ecclesiology are IDENTICAL
    « Reply #53 on: May 21, 2022, 11:23:40 AM »
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  • When Father Chazal came out with his position, I was hoping that it might be a bridge between the SV and R&R camps, but it hasn't worked out that way as many SVs and R&Rs are dogmatically entrenched in their respective positions.
    This right here is the problem preventing any sort of trad unity among trad clergy.
    "For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears:" [2 Tim. 4:3]

    O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding the profane novelties of words, and oppositions of knowledge falsely so called. [1 Tim. 6:20]

    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Sedevacantist Ecclesiology and Protestant Ecclesiology are IDENTICAL
    « Reply #54 on: May 21, 2022, 02:13:54 PM »
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  • In his video introducing Sede-impoundism, he emphasizes that Bergoglio is indeed a manifest heretic and thereby is impounded and has NO authority, that he can and must be entirely ignored.  Classic R&R holds that he still has authority, which must be obeyed when it's not in opposition to Tradition.  It's more of an ad hoc disobedience to specific commannds, whereas both SPism and Sedeimpoundism hold that he categorically lacks the authority.

    [...] Archbishop Lefebvre was closer to impoundism than to what R&R has morphed into.  He emphatically stated that




    Offline Sefa

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    Re: Sedevacantist Ecclesiology and Protestant Ecclesiology are IDENTICAL
    « Reply #55 on: May 22, 2022, 10:26:45 AM »
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  • Yes, Cassiciacuм makes perfect sense and solves nearly all the legitimate difficulties with straight sedevacantism.  Father Chazal's position is also strong ... and only different in subtle nuance from sedeprivationism.  Father Chazal emphasizes the material possession of office, whereas most sedeprivationists emphasize the formal vacancy.  But it's just two views of the same thing.  Bergoglio (et al.) deprived of all teaching authority while remaining in possession of the office and possibly some aspects of jurisdiction (able to make appointments, etc.)  If Bergoglio can make appointments and those who hold the office can have formal authority if not impeded by their own heresy, eccelsiavacantism problem with (objection to) SV completely evaporates.

    NOTE:  Father Chazal denies this because he does not want to be seen as "sedevacantist", but I have seen no convincing argument that his position is any different other than in emphasis.  In his video introducing Sede-impoundism, he emphasizes that Bergoglio is indeed a manifest heretic and thereby is impounded and has NO authority, that he can and must be entirely ignored.  Classic R&R holds that he still has authority, which must be obeyed when it's not in opposition to Tradition.  It's more of an ad hoc disobedience to specific commannds, whereas both SPism and Sedeimpoundism hold that he categorically lacks the authority.

    Both classic R&R and (what LOT called) "pure" Sedevacantism have legitimate serious issues, which these groups have been fond of pointing out about one another.  SPism solves both sets of complaints.  Beside that, Bishop Guerard was a if not THE top theologian in the Church prior to Vatican II, so I love it when people attack him and characterize his theory as "idiotic".  Nor did he invent the formal vs. material distinction regarding the papacy; it can be found in St. Robert Bellarmine and many other theologians.

    I actually believe that Archbishop Lefebvre was closer to impoundism than to what R&R has morphed into.  He emphatically stated that this degree of destruction cannot happen, since the Papacy is guided by the Holy Spirit (which most modern R&R reject), thinks SVism is possible, but defers to the Church for the final solution and filled with hostility toward the other side, often moreso than toward the Modernist occupiers of the Church.

    When Father Chazal came out with his position, I was hoping that it might be a bridge between the SV and R&R camps, but it hasn't worked out that way as many SVs and R&Rs are dogmatically entrenched in their respective positions.
    It sounds a lot like supplied jurisdiction through common error of the identity of the holder of the office that was applied particularily in the great western schism. That is, as long as you believed a claimant do be the office holder and they gave you jurisdiction, then the church would directly supply the jurisdiction to you for the common good. I think theres more nuance to it. One potential application i could see is for the greek, syrian and coptic schismatics who hold their respective "patriarchs" to be the head/first/prince of the church/bishops, the greeks even directly usurping the pope's office and calling themselves new and third rome. Such a sub bishop/priest/lay person, if free of heresy and not schismatic in heart, i believe would have supplied jurisdiction through common error over the identity of the pope (antipope bartholomew). I imagine this in reality would only apply to laity as all the schismatic clergy of the east profess some manner of heresy.


    Online 2Vermont

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    Re: Sedevacantist Ecclesiology and Protestant Ecclesiology are IDENTICAL
    « Reply #56 on: May 22, 2022, 12:40:54 PM »
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  • It sounds a lot like supplied jurisdiction through common error of the identity of the holder of the office that was applied particularily in the great western schism. That is, as long as you believed a claimant do be the office holder and they gave you jurisdiction, then the church would directly supply the jurisdiction to you for the common good. I think theres more nuance to it. One potential application i could see is for the greek, syrian and coptic schismatics who hold their respective "patriarchs" to be the head/first/prince of the church/bishops, the greeks even directly usurping the pope's office and calling themselves new and third rome. Such a sub bishop/priest/lay person, if free of heresy and not schismatic in heart, i believe would have supplied jurisdiction through common error over the identity of the pope (antipope bartholomew). I imagine this in reality would only apply to laity as all the schismatic clergy of the east profess some manner of heresy.
    Except the orthodoxy of officeholders/claimants was not under question during the Western Schism.
    "For there is not any thing secret that shall not be made manifest, nor hidden, that shall not be known and come abroad."- Luke 8:17

    Offline EWPJ

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    Re: Sedevacantist Ecclesiology and Protestant Ecclesiology are IDENTICAL
    « Reply #57 on: May 22, 2022, 01:16:54 PM »
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  • I was going to make a huge post engaging the points about the misunderstanding of the sedevacantist position especially in regards to the 4 Marks and Visible Church but instead I will link the Dimonds "Answers to the most common objections of Sedevacantism."  The whole thing is a good read but number 15 addressed the Visible Church issue.

    https://vaticancatholic.com/21_Objections.pdf