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Author Topic: Thuc Superpowers!  (Read 63459 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Thuc Superpowers!
« Reply #90 on: November 04, 2025, 10:15:07 AM »
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    • Quote from: TomGubbinsKimmage on November 04, 2025, 09:59:18 AM
    Hey, you're back of the envelope sacramental theology is sweet and all, but us grown adults know full well that intention is a major part of the validity of the sacraments.

    The first time I even heard people questioning this is sedes doing it for this.
    The Church's intention, which applies when the rite is said properly, is all that matters (for traditional rites).
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    Offline TomGubbinsKimmage

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    Re: Thuc Superpowers!
    « Reply #91 on: November 04, 2025, 10:20:56 AM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on November 04, 2025, 10:15:07 AM
    The Church's intention, which applies when the rite is said properly, is all that matters (for traditional rites).
    Said no theologian ever.

    All the SSPX. 
    All the Dominicans of Avrille.

    They're all liars according to you.
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    Offline Gray2023

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    Re: Thuc Superpowers!
    « Reply #92 on: November 04, 2025, 10:51:39 AM »
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    • Quote from: TomGubbinsKimmage on November 04, 2025, 10:00:17 AM
    The same power and discernment that allows any human being to discern the Truth and get baptized.

    You're feigning ignorance at this point.
    No I am just a realist.  The Crisis is a mess and their is currently no authority of the Church to tell us what opinion is correct. So go ahead and continue your know-it-all attitude and the thought that you can condemn (maybe an exaggeration) everyone who disagrees with you, but nobody can really stop you.
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    Fatti Maschii, Parole Femine

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Thuc Superpowers!
    « Reply #93 on: November 04, 2025, 10:52:10 AM »
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    • Quote from: TomGubbinsKimmage on November 04, 2025, 10:20:56 AM
    Said no theologian ever.

    All the SSPX.
    All the Dominicans of Avrille.

    They're all liars according to you.

    You don't seem to understand. Pope Leo XIII essentially said what Pax stated, that "The Church's intention, which applies when the rite is said properly, is all that matters (for traditional rites)."

    33. With this inherent defect of “form” is joined the defect of “intention” which is equally essential to the Sacrament. The Church does not judge about the mind and intention, in so far as it is something by its nature internal; but in so far as it is manifested externally she is bound to judge concerning it. A person who has correctly and seriously used the requisite matter and form to effect and confer a sacrament is presumed for that very reason to have intended to do (intendisse)what the Church does. On this principle rests the doctrine that a Sacrament is truly conferred by the ministry of one who is a heretic or unbaptized, provided the Catholic rite be employed. On the other hand, if the rite be changed, with the manifest intention of introducing another rite not approved by the Church and of rejecting what the Church does, and what, by the institution of Christ, belongs to the nature of the Sacrament, then it is clear that not only is the necessary intention wanting to the Sacrament, but that the intention is adverse to and destructive of the Sacrament.

    https://www.papalencyclicals.net/leo13/l13curae.htm
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    Online WorldsAway

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    Re: Thuc Superpowers!
    « Reply #94 on: November 04, 2025, 10:57:35 AM »
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    • Quote from: TomGubbinsKimmage on November 04, 2025, 09:58:07 AM
    I literally just gave a screenshot of the angelus magazine where it says he did.
    Provide the actual letter from +Thuc

    This alleged letter was referenced in the Angelus without an exact quote from +Thuc. 

     So either the author read the actual letter and didn't see the need to provide an exact quote or better yet, the letter in its entirety (poor journalism, not sufficient proof), or he was merely told about it and didn't even see it himself (even poorer journalism, and even less sufficient proof), or he fabricated it. 

    Regardless, if the letter actually exists..post it
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    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Thuc Superpowers!
    « Reply #95 on: November 04, 2025, 02:19:52 PM »
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    • Quote from: TomGubbinsKimmage on November 04, 2025, 09:58:07 AM
    I literally just gave a screenshot of the angelus magazine where it says he did.
    .

    Does the article give any sort of evidence for that assertion, though? If the author of that article said so on the basis of the (probably fake) letter you provided, which says exactly the opposite that you are claiming, and on the contrary asserts that Bp. Thuc did ordain bishops but regrets having done so (and you can't regret something you never did), then the author is wrong.

    That's why I'm trying to get to the bottom of this. You claimed Bp. Thuc said he withheld his intention to consecrate the men he consecrated. I don't believe this assertion. I asked for proof. You provided first a docuмent that says the exact opposite, and then a docuмent of a third party asserting this supposed fact without offering any proof either.

    So, did Bp. Thuc say he withheld his intention to consecrate and ordain, or did he not? And if you say he did, can you please provide the proof?
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    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Thuc Superpowers!
    « Reply #96 on: November 04, 2025, 02:24:09 PM »
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    • Quote from: TomGubbinsKimmage on November 04, 2025, 09:59:18 AM
    Hey, you're back of the envelope sacramental theology is sweet and all, but us grown adults know full well that intention is a major part of the validity of the sacraments. 
    .

    This is true, but the intention is presumed to exist if the minister performs the ceremony seriously. The contrary must be proved. That's why we are asking you to prove your assertion that he withheld his intention, and Catholic theology teaches that the sacramental is presumed to be valid unless or until someone can prove that the minister withheld his intention. And since no one can read people's minds, normally only the minister himself can assert that he withheld the necessary intention.

    So, did Bp. Thuc say he withheld his intention? Do you have proof of this or not?
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    Offline TomGubbinsKimmage

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    Re: Thuc Superpowers!
    « Reply #97 on: November 04, 2025, 03:12:11 PM »
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    • Quote from: WorldsAway on November 04, 2025, 10:57:35 AM
    Provide the actual letter from +Thuc

    This alleged letter was referenced in the Angelus without an exact quote from +Thuc.

     So either the author read the actual letter and didn't see the need to provide an exact quote or better yet, the letter in its entirety (poor journalism, not sufficient proof), or he was merely told about it and didn't even see it himself (even poorer journalism, and even less sufficient proof), or he fabricated it.

    Regardless, if the letter actually exists..post it
    We dont have the original letters of St. Paul. Yet we accept copies.
    Your standard of proof is not a reasonable one.You are acting more from motivation of not wanting to believe it.

    Given the mental instability of Thuc, and the reliability of the SSPX and Lefebvre at the time, it is perfectly reasonable to take the article at face value.
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    Offline TomGubbinsKimmage

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    Re: Thuc Superpowers!
    « Reply #98 on: November 04, 2025, 03:15:52 PM »
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    • Quote from: Yeti on November 04, 2025, 02:24:09 PM
    .

    This is true, but the intention is presumed to exist if the minister performs the ceremony seriously. The contrary must be proved. That's why we are asking you to prove your assertion that he withheld his intention, and Catholic theology teaches that the sacramental is presumed to be valid unless or until someone can prove that the minister withheld his intention. And since no one can read people's minds, normally only the minister himself can assert that he withheld the necessary intention.

    So, did Bp. Thuc say he withheld his intention? Do you have proof of this or not?

    Can you try to pay attention please. Yes he admitted it. Positively withholding intention is called simulating a Sacrament, which is always invalid.
    Yet what we need to establish, but cannot because he is dead, is whether this was a one off, or part of his broader insanity.
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    Online WorldsAway

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    Re: Thuc Superpowers!
    « Reply #99 on: November 04, 2025, 03:28:18 PM »
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    • Quote from: TomGubbinsKimmage on November 04, 2025, 03:12:11 PM
    We dont have the original letters of St. Paul. Yet we accept copies.
    Alright, so provide a copy :laugh2:


    Quote
    Your standard of proof is not a reasonable one.You are acting more from motivation of not wanting to believe it.
    Given the mental instability of Thuc, and the reliability of the SSPX and Lefebvre at the time, it is perfectly reasonable to take the article at face value.
    Wanting to know what exactly +Thuc said is a very reasonable standard when the topic is the validity of holy orders..your disingenuousness is showing

    I'll make it easy for you.  Find one single article, book, interview, online forum post, diary, newspaper clipping, telegram, post card or anything at all that quotes +Thuc's letter saying he "withheld intention".  It doesn't have to be the entire letter, or a complete sentence for that matter. Just the relevant section

    For something so important, it's incredible that you cannot provide a single quote from the man who apparently said it :confused:
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    Offline TomGubbinsKimmage

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    Re: Thuc Superpowers!
    « Reply #100 on: November 04, 2025, 03:45:54 PM »
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    • Literally two pages back IN THIS VERY THREAD.
    You are very lazy.

    https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/thuc-superpowers!/60/
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    Offline TomGubbinsKimmage

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    Re: Thuc Superpowers!
    « Reply #101 on: November 04, 2025, 03:50:35 PM »
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    • Quote from: Angelus on November 04, 2025, 10:52:10 AM
    You don't seem to understand. Pope Leo XIII essentially said what Pax stated, that "The Church's intention, which applies when the rite is said properly, is all that matters (for traditional rites)."

    33. With this inherent defect of “form” is joined the defect of “intention” which is equally essential to the Sacrament. The Church does not judge about the mind and intention, in so far as it is something by its nature internal; but in so far as it is manifested externally she is bound to judge concerning it. A person who has correctly and seriously used the requisite matter and form to effect and confer a sacrament is presumed for that very reason to have intended to do (intendisse)what the Church does. On this principle rests the doctrine that a Sacrament is truly conferred by the ministry of one who is a heretic or unbaptized, provided the Catholic rite be employed. On the other hand, if the rite be changed, with the manifest intention of introducing another rite not approved by the Church and of rejecting what the Church does, and what, by the institution of Christ, belongs to the nature of the Sacrament, then it is clear that not only is the necessary intention wanting to the Sacrament, but that the intention is adverse to and destructive of the Sacrament.

    https://www.papalencyclicals.net/leo13/l13curae.htm


    I set up another thread to deal with this peak retardation.


    https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/sacraments-internal-intention/msg1004603/?topicseen#msg1004603
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    Online WorldsAway

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    Re: Thuc Superpowers!
    « Reply #102 on: November 04, 2025, 04:26:09 PM »
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    • Quote from: TomGubbinsKimmage on November 04, 2025, 03:45:54 PM
    Literally two pages back IN THIS VERY THREAD.
    You are very lazy.
    And you are very dumb :fryingpan:

    This is what you are referring to?:

    Quote
    Soon after the questionable ordinations, Bishop Ngo-Dinh-Thuc renounced his actions and published a letter saying that the "orders" he had conferred were null and void because he had withheld all intention of conveying orders to the Palmar de Troya sect. Given his past performances, there is no reason to believe that his present fiasco is any more credible.


    Do you know what a quote is, tommy? Can you point out the quote from +Thuc saying he "withheld all intention"1 in this paragraph?


    The Angelus claims +Thuc published this letter. If he published it, go find it


    1    This is an example of a quote. I quoted the Angelus article, repeating it's exact words. However, what the Angelus article does not contain is a quote from +Thuc saying he withheld all intention and that the orders are null and void. It merely references the letter and claims that is what it contained.
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    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

    Offline TomGubbinsKimmage

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    Re: Thuc Superpowers!
    « Reply #103 on: November 04, 2025, 04:50:18 PM »
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    • You obviously have some form of ADHD
     
      My response to the that is in the posts above.
     
      READ THEM
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    Online WorldsAway

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    Re: Thuc Superpowers!
    « Reply #104 on: November 04, 2025, 04:59:24 PM »
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    • Quote from: TomGubbinsKimmage on November 04, 2025, 04:50:18 PM
    You obviously have some form of ADHD
     
      My response to the that is in the posts above.
     
      READ THEM
    The Angelus, while failing to quote from it, claimed +Thuc published the letter...go fetch
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    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
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