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Author Topic: Thuc Novus Ordo pics  (Read 89802 times)

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Online WorldsAway

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Re: Thuc Novus Ordo pics
« Reply #15 on: November 07, 2025, 07:55:54 PM »
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  • Lefebvre had two Bishops lay hands, so if one was not a true bishop then the other did the job. End of story.
    Tommy, +Leinart also ordained +Lefebvre to the priesthood
    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Thuc Novus Ordo pics
    « Reply #16 on: November 07, 2025, 08:44:29 PM »
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  • Tommy, +Leinart also ordained +Lefebvre to the priesthood

    Yep, and the slandering retard has just disqualified himself from the discussion.

    You could have had 50 bishops lay hands on +Lefebvre, but +Lienart alone performed his ordination.

    But if "internal intention" (as warped by this baboon) is a thing ... then we've probably had Traditional Catholics receive hundreds of thousands of invalid Sacraments.


    Offline TomGubbinsKimmage

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    Re: Thuc Novus Ordo pics
    « Reply #17 on: November 08, 2025, 10:43:42 AM »
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  • Tommy, +Leinart also ordained +Lefebvre to the priesthood
    Becoming a Bishop covers for that.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Thuc Novus Ordo pics
    « Reply #18 on: November 08, 2025, 11:45:03 PM »
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  • Becoming a Bishop covers for that.
    Debatable.  Not theologically settled.  

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Thuc Novus Ordo pics
    « Reply #19 on: Yesterday at 10:29:52 PM »
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  • Debatable.  Not theologically settled. 

    Actually, in the Roman Rite, it's almost morally certain that it's invalid ... due to the way the essential form is worded.

    COMPLETE IN YOUR PRIEST the summit of your ministry.

    "Comple in Sacerdote tuo ministerii tui summam, et ornamentis totius glorificationis instructum coelestis unguenti rore santifica

    Bassically it assumes this is a priest (if he weren't the essential form would be incorrectly designating the matter), and it refers to COMPLETING something that's already there, and not merely granting it.

    What was held AS A MINORITY OPINION was whether Episcopal Consecration can be validly conferred on someone who isn't a priest, in general, and there may be some Eastern Rites that are not worded as above, the the attempt to perform the Latin Rite consecration on a non-priest would certaily be invalid.

    So, it's not really debatable ... except in general terms.

    Nothing exposes someone more than when they're soundly refuted about something and so they come up with a backup reason, and that's the surest indication he's already made up his mind, out of spite, to continue slandering Archbishhop Thuc, but wants to make certain exception (+Lefebvre line) to the crap theology of "internal intention" he invented, where some occult Freemason could "wish away" the Church intention for the Sacrament.

    +Lienart's having been a Freemason was proven, and not just speculation, and +Lefebvre admitted it on two different occasions.  If one were to believe Scuмmage's fake made-up theology, there's an extraordinariliy high chance the +Lefebvre was never a valid priest, and therefore we've had millions of invalid Sacraments among Traditionalists.  Except of course that this buffoon simply made it up.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Thuc Novus Ordo pics
    « Reply #20 on: Yesterday at 10:31:39 PM »
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  • Here's a guy who also shares Scuмmage's incorrect view of "internal intention", confounding the internal intention to do WHAT the Church does, i.e. to perform the Rite of the Church, and the internal intention to achieve the Sacramental effect.

    But, unlike Scuмmage ... he carries this error to its logical conclusion ...

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    Enter Cardinal Achille Liénart
    Marcel Lefebvre was “ordained” a priest in 1929 and “consecrated” a bishop in 1947. In 1970, five years after he signed the decrees of Vatican Council II, he founded the Society of St. Pius X (SSPX). Three years before he died in 1991, he “consecrated” four members of the SSPX as bishops. The problem regarding the validity of the consecration of these four men goes back to the man who ordained and consecrated them, Marcel Lefebvre. The problem with Marcel Lefebvre and his highly doubtful ability to confer Holy Orders goes back to his Seminary professor, the man who ordained and consecrated Marcel Lefebvre himself – Cardinal Achille Liénart, a socialist who had distinguished himself as an ultra liberal in Vatican Council II. He died in 1973, and received this eulogy from Time Magazine:
    Quote
    “Died. Achille Cardinal Liénart, 89, staunchly progressive bishop of the industrial diocese of Lille for four decades; in Lille. A champion of social reform in France long before he won a red hat in 1930, Cardinal Liénart was an active supporter of trade-unionism and a leader of the worker-priest movement that sent Catholic clergymen to live among French laborers. Undaunted by either the opposition of industrialists, who dubbed him "the Red Cardinal," [i.e., the Communist Cardinal] or the Vatican's termination of the worker-priest experiment in 1954, he became a leading proponent of church decentralization during Vatican II.” (2/26/73)
    Of greater concern to traditional Catholics than the fact that Liénart was a radical socialist was the fact that he was also a high-ranking Freemason. The proof for this assertion is compelling. Let us take a look at the evidence.
    Liénart the Mason
    Liénart was first exposed as being a high-ranking, 30 degree Freemason in a book titled L’Infaillibilité Pontificale (Papal Infallibility), which was written by a Chamberlain of Pope Pius XII, Marquis de la Franquerie, an experienced and accomplished Catholic author4 as well as a personal friend of Marcel Lefebvre. In fact, the second edition of L’Infaillibilité Pontificale contains a commendation from Lefebvre in which he expresses his appreciation to his “dear Marquis” for publishing the book.5
    This book revealed that Liénart was “a Luciferian who frequented black masses”6 and whose role at Vatican Council II was dictated to him from his Masonic superiors. In a footnote to the above quoted text, the Marquis explains:
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    “This attitude of the Cardinal could not surprise those who knew of his membership in Masonic and Luciferian Lodges. That was why the author of this study had consistently refused to accompany Cardinal Liénart in official ceremonies, as Secret Chamberlain.”
    Quote
    “The Cardinal had been initiated in 1912 in a Lodge in Cambrai, whose Venerable was Brother Debierre. He attended one Lodge in Cambrai, three in Lille, one in Valenciennes and two in Paris, including one lodge especially composed of parliamentarians. In 1919, he was indicated as a Visitor (18th degree) and then in 1924 as a 30th degree. The future Cardinal met in the lodges Brother Debierre and Roger Salengro. Debierre was one of the informants of Cardinal Gasparri, who had been initiated in America, and Cardinal Hartmann, Archbishop of Cologne, a Rosicrucian of Germany.”7
    In addition to this book, there have also been several publications exposing Liénart as a Mason. One of these is a French periodical called Le Courrier Tychique, published by Max Barret, friend and former chauffeur of Marcel Lefebvre. This publication carried the story in its October 25, 2009 edition of Liénart’s deathbed confession to a traditionalist priest by the name of Canon Descornets. It said that Liénart not only confessed his Masonic membership, but that he further requested the Canon to make the fact of it public, and in order to facilite this, he released Canon Descornets from the seal of the confessional. The Canon complied with his request, but fearing reprecusions (he was still operating under his Vatican II bishop), he did so only to private audiences. It was from a first-hand witness at one of these audiences that Max Barret obtained the information that he published in his article.
    In March, 2013, Einsicht, a conservative German publication often quoted in attempting to prove the validity of the Thuc lineage, treated of the fact of Liénart's masonic membership and stated that Lefebvre acquaintance and ex-SSPX professor, Father Gerard des Lauriers, advised those who had beened ordained by Marcel Lefebrve to get themselves conditionally ordained again due to concerns about validity.
    Father Luigi Villa provides yet more evidence. He was said to have been commissioned by Cardinal Ottaviani to obtain docuмentation about high ranking Church officials suspected of being Masons. This task one day found Father Villa in Paris, waiting near a Masonic lodge for someone to provide him with docuмentary evidence confirming Liénart's Masonic membership, when he was assaulted and beat into unconsciousness. While pounding him, his assailent shouted: “There is a devil on this earth!” (Who is Father Luigi Villa? by Dr. Franco Adessa)
    (Another source of Liénart's masonic ties arose when an internal conflict within a Freemasonic Lodge in Italy, between Mino Pecorelli and his former Grand Master, Licio Gelli, spilled out into the public forum. As a result of this conflict, Pecorelli leaked out a membership list in July, 1976.  So many credible publications have since reprinted this list that its authenticity is beyond all reasonable doubt.  It should be noted, however, that Liénart's name was not found on the original list put out by Pecorelli, but made its way into the list at a later date, in which it stated: “Liénart, Achille, Cardinal. Grand Master top Mason. Bishop of Lille, France. Recruits Masons. Was leader of progressive forces at Vatican II Council.”8 Whether his name was added by Pecorelli himself or by someone else is unknown, which is why this is being given parathentically.)
    Lefebvre Acknowledges Liénart as a Freemason
    Most significant of all of the witness is none other than Marcel Lefebvre himself. In March of 1976, Chiesa Viva No.51, a magazine published in Rome, reproduced the story from the book L’infaillibilité Pontificale claiming that Achille Liénart was a high ranking Freemason, followed by another Italian periodical, Si Si, No No.
    In response to the article carried by Chiesa Viva, Lefebvre publicly acknowledged the fact that Liénart was a Freemason on at least two different occasions. The first occasion occurred in a public speaking engagment on May 11, 1976, in Minneapolis, Minnesota. Speaking in broken English, Lefebvre introduced Liénart as the leader of the progressives at Vatican Council II and as a Mason:
    Quote
    n the first day of the Council, Cardinal Liénart was the chief of all of the liberals in the Council… in Rome, the published the photo of Cardinal Liénart in the review Chiesa Viva, Chiesa Viva, it’s a traditionalist review, a good review, in Rome, that published the picture with all, all the appurtenances Freemasonic, the day of his inscription in the Freemasonians, the day of the 20th degree, and after the 30th degree of Masonry, and the place where he stood admitting of Masons, the chief of the liberal Cardinals of the Council. That is my Cardinal, he gave me the ordination of the priesthood and the consecration as bishop. He is my Cardinal. I am, I am, I burn in his legacy. And now it is published, it is public, nobody can answer to this publication.”
    Again in a speech given in Montreal on May 27, 1976:
    Quote
    “Two months ago in Rome, the traditionalist periodical Chiesa Viva, published — I have seen it in Rome with my own eyes — on the back side of the cover, the photograph of Cardinal Liénart with all his Masonic paraphernalia, the day of the date of his inscription in Masonry, the grade to which he belonged, then the date at which he rose to the 20th, then to the 30th degree of Masonry, attached to this lodge, to that lodge, at this place, at that place. Meanwhile, about two or three months after this publication was made, I heard nothing about any reaction, or any contradiction. Now, unfortunately, I must say to you that this Cardinal Liénart is my bishop, it is he who ordained me a priest, it is he who consecrated me a bishop. I cannot help it... Fortunately, the orders are valid... But, in spite of it, it was very painful for me to be informed of it.”
    It is interesting to note that Lefebvre immediately started to defend the “validity” of his Orders, even though their validity had not been openly challenged. Presumably Lefebvre took this defensive posture because he knew about the doubtfulness of Orders emanating from a Freemasonic minister. In point of fact, he had good reason to be concerned.
    Freemasons – Valid Sacramental Intention?
    So the question naturally arises: If Liénart was a Freemason, what about Lefebvre’s Orders? Wouldn’t there be doubt concerning their validity? Fortunately, it is not necessary to “divine” the intentions of those who are Freemasons as to whether or not they would confer Holy Orders with the “intention to do what the Church does,” because nearly every pope since 1738 has published warnings about the Freemasons and their objectives. Here’s a sampling (emphases supplied):

    Quote
    “[T]hey [Freemasons] declare repeatedly that Christ is either a scandal or foolish; indeed, not rarely, that there is no God, and they teach that the soul of man dies together with the body: the codes and statutes, by which they explain their goals and ordinances openly declare that all the things which We have already mentioned, and which pertain to the overthrowing of Legitimate Rulers and totally destroying the Church come forth from them. And this has been ascertained and must be considered as certain, that these sects, although in name different, nevertheless have been joined among themselves by an impious bond of filthy goals.” (Quo Graviora – Apostolic Constitution of Pope Leo XII, March 13, 1826)

    “[T]hose secret societies of factious men who, completely opposed to God and to princes, are wholly dedicated to bringing about the fall of the Church, the destruction of kingdoms, and disorder in the whole world…Their law is untruth: their god is the devil and their cult is turpitude… Our predecessors, Clement XII, Benedict XIV, Pius VII, Leo XII, repeatedly condemned with anathema that kind of secret society…” (Traditi Humilitati - Encyclical of Pope Pius VIII ,May 24, 1829)

    “Such that they profane and defile the passion of Jesus Christ by certain of their impious ceremonies, that they despise the Sacraments of the Church (for which they seem to substitute other new things invented by themselves through their supreme wickedness) and despise the very mysteries of the Catholic Religion and that they overthrow this Apostolic See against which, because on it the Sovereignty of the Apostolic Chair has always flourished, (S. Aug. Epist. 43.) they are roused by a certain unparalleled hate and they devise every dangerous destructive plot.” (Constitution of Pope Pius VII – Ecclesiam a Jesu Christo – 9/13/1821)

    They are planning the destruction of holy Church publicly and openly, and this with the set purpose of utterly despoiling the nations of Christendom… Their chief dogmas are so greatly and manifestly at variance with reason that nothing can be more perverse. To wish to destroy the religion and the Church which God Himself has established… their ultimate purpose forces itself into view – namely, the utter overthrow of that whole religious and political order of the world which the Christian teaching has produced… and now the time has come when the partisans of the sects openly declare, what in secret among themselves they have for a long time plotted, that the sacred power of the Pontiffs must be abolished, and that the papacy itself, founded by divine right, must be utterly destroyed. If other proofs were wanting, this fact would be sufficiently disclosed by the testimony of men well informed, of whom some at other times, and others again recently, have declared it to be true of the Freemasons that they especially desire to assail the Church with irreconcilable hostility, and that they will never rest until they have destroyed whatever the supreme Pontiffs have established for the sake of religion.” (Humanum Genus, Encyclical of Pope Leo XIII, 4/20/1884)
    So bearing in mind that the destruction of Catholicism is the goal of the Freemason, let us examine Liénart the “Mason.”
    Liénart’s Doubtful Sacramental Intention
    We obviously have no way of knowing with certainty what Liénart’s intentions were when he first ordained and then later consecrated Marcel Lefebvre, only he and God know that, but we can draw a reasonable conclusion based upon what the popes have taught us about high-ranking Freemasons. This reasonable conclusion would tell us that it is highly improbable that Liénart would have “intended to do what the Church does” when he ordained and consecrated Marcel Lefebvre.
    Since, as just noted, the destruction of Catholicism is a Freemasonic objective, a question naturally arises: why would a high ranking Mason (Liénart) advance someone to further the interests of Catholicism and thereby undermine the interests of Masonry? It doesn’t add up, especially when one takes into account the directives that Pope Leo XIII issued to all of the bishops of the world about combating Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ:

    Quote
    “And because We know that Our best and firmest hope of a remedy is in the power of that divine religion which the Freemasons hate in proportion to their fear of it… We pray and beseech you, venerable brethren, to join your efforts with Ours, and earnestly to strive for the extirpation of this foul plague… We wish it to be your rule first of all to tear away the mask from Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ, and to let it be seen as it really is; and by sermons and pastoral letters to instruct the people as to the artifices used by societies of this kind in seducing men and enticing them into their ranks, and as to the depravity of their opinions and the wickedness of their acts.” (Humanum Genus, id.)
    So again the question: why would Liénart ever consider validly consecrating Lefebvre, if as a result of that consecration Lefebvre would have been duty-bound to “extirpate” and to “tear away the mask” of Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ? What could have possibly motivated Liénart to do that?
    On the other hand, if Liénart was “wholly dedicated to bringing about the fall of the Church,” then one sure way of accomplishing that would be to destroy Apostolic Succession in the Church; and that could easily be achieved by secretly feigning the “ordinations” of priests and the “consecrations” of bishops. This writer suggests that this latter intention is the more probable one and more in keeping with right reason.
    Sacramental Intention is not Enslaved to the Form of the Sacrament
    The defenders of Lefebvre, however, would have us believe that if an enemy of Catholicism visibly used proper matter and form in their ordination and consecration ceremonies, then we have no choice but to accept that intention as good and the Sacrament as valid. This is not sound sacramental theology and a highly dangerous proposition, because in accepting this line of reasoning, one would have to enslave and subordinate the intention of the minister to the matter and form employed. Taking this line of reasoning to its logical conclusion, then if Anton LeVey, the founder of the Church of Satan, were to consecrate someone (supposing that he himself had obtained valid consecration, as Satanists sometimes did) by using proper matter and form, then we would have to accept that consecration at face value as being valid. But what intelligent person would accept this? What serious-minded Catholic would go to such a person for the Sacraments or entrust the welfare of their souls to him?
    The defenders of this external intention supposition rely on a false premise, based principally upon the misapplication of Pope Leo XIII’s encyclical Apostolicae Curae9 against the validity of Anglican Orders, which causes them to embrace a highly improbable scholastic theory which states that the “external intention” alone is sufficient for sacramental validity.
    In support of their position, they often quote a certain portion of this encyclical which states that: “A person who has correctly and seriously used the requisite matter and form to effect and confer a sacrament is presumed for that very reason to have intended to do what the Church does.” But in presenting this sentence out of the context of the paragraph which contained it, they either naively or deceptively distort the whole of what Pope Leo XIII taught. Here is the paragraph in its entirety:

    Quote
    “With this inherent defect of 'form' is joined the defect of 'intention' which is equally essential to the Sacrament. The Church does not judge about the mind and intention, in so far as it is something by its nature internal; but in so far as it is manifested externally she is bound to judge concerning it. A person who has correctly and seriously used the requisite matter and form to effect and confer a sacrament is presumed for that very reason to have intended to do what the Church does. On this principle rests the doctrine that a Sacrament is truly conferred by the ministry of one who is a heretic or unbaptized, provided the Catholic rite be employed. On the other hand, if the rite be changed, with the manifest intention of introducing another rite not approved by the Church and of rejecting what the Church does, and what, by the institution of Christ, belongs to the nature of the Sacrament, then it is clear that not only is the necessary intention wanting to the Sacrament, but that the intention is adverse to and destructive of the Sacrament.” (Emphasis supplied)
    What Leo XIII is teaching here is that when the Anglicans changed the form of the Sacrament, they necessarily changed the intention of the Sacrament as well, either change being equally destructive of the Sacrament. He is not teaching that the intention is presumed valid in every case, without exception, provided that the form is not changed. This is obvious when he states that “but in so far as it [the intention] is manifested externally she is bound to judge concerning it.” So here we have the exception of a presumed good intention, i.e., an externally manifested intention otherwise.
    This is why in the hypothetical case about Anton LeVey one must reject any Orders he hypothetically would have conferred, because his membership in the Church of Satan is an external manifestation of something, i.e., his hostility to God and Catholicism. So likewise in the case of Liénart, his membership in Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ is an external manifestation of something as well, i.e., his hostility to God and Catholicism.
    Furthermore, Leo XIII’s statement that “a person who has correctly and seriously used the requisite matter and form to effect and confer a sacrament is presumed for that very reason to have intended to do what the Church does” cannot be construed to exclude from the term “seriously” the indispensible element of the sacramental intention, as Lefebvre's defenders would have us believe:

    Quote
    “If the true intention of confecting a sacrament is lacking, the element of the serious external performance seems to contribute very little or nothing to the contention that those actions thus posited constitute a true sacrament. In fact it is a misnomer to call an action "serious" if the internal serious intent is lacking. Such so-called "serious" performances are not serious at all. That they are apparently serious is true, but that they are really serious is false.” (The Dogmatic Theology on the Intention of the Minister in the Confection of the Sacraments by Rev. Raphael De Salvo, O.S.B., S.T.L. 1949, p. 97)
    It is also noteworthy that almost all theologians today reject the external intention theory and state that a minister of the Sacraments must have an internal intention to confer the Sacrament:
    Quote
    “According to the almost general opinion of modern theologians, an inner intention is necessary for the valid administration of the Sacraments… The mere external intention is not compatible with the concept of doing what the Church intends, or with the status of the minister as a servant of Christ, or with the religious determination of the sacramental sign…” (Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, Ludwig Ott, 1955)

    “The Church teaches very unequivocally that for the valid conferring of the sacraments, the minister must have the intention of doing at least what the Church does. This is laid down with great emphasis by the Council of Trent. (Sess. VII). The opinion once defended by such theologians as Catharinus and Salmeron (theologians at Trent) that there need only be the intention to perform deliberately the external rite proper to each sacrament, and that, as long as this was true, the interior dissent of the minister from the mind of the Church would not invalidate the sacrament, no longer finds adherents. The common doctrine now is that a real internal intention to act as a minister of Christ, or to do what Christ instituted the sacraments to effect… is required… Whatever may be said speculatively about the opinion of Ambrosius Catharinus who advocated the sufficiency of an external intention in the minister, it may not be followed in practice, because, outside of cases of necessity, no one may follow a probable opinion against one that is safer, when there is question of something required for the validity of a sacrament.” (The Catholic Encyclopedia, Vol. VIII, p. 69)
    This necessary internal intention is further confirmed by St. Thomas Aquinas:
    Quote
    “I answer that, The minister’s intention may be perverted in two ways. First in regard to the Sacrament: for instance, when a man does not intend to confer a Sacrament, but to make a mockery of it. Such a perverse intention takes away the truth of the Sacrament, especially if it be manifested outwardly.” (Summa Theologica, 3rd, 64, 10.)
    And by St. Alphonsus:
    Quote
    “For the validity of the Sacraments there is required in the minister neither faith nor probity, but rather power (and jurisdiction in some Sacraments), as well as the intention or will, at least virtual and absolute, or the equivalent of this, of doing, not that external act only, but that Sacrament, or at least of doing what the Church does or what Christ instituted… the confection of a Sacrament requires such an intention which determines the action to be sacramental, and which removes the indifference of the words and actions; but an intention only of doing the external action, which could be referred to other ends, is not such an intention. Thus the Council of Trent defined that a “Sacrament” performed in jest would be invalid, contrary to Luther.” (Theologia Moralis: Bk. 6, Pt. 1 - emphasis supplied)
    And by Pope Alexander VIII who condemned the following (as already noted above):
    Quote
    “Baptism is valid which is conferred by a minister who observes all the external rite and the form of baptizing but within his heart resolves: ‘I do not intend what the Church does.’” (Denzinger, 1318)
    And finally by the Holy Office:
    Quote
    “On 23 January, 1586, the Sacred Congregation of the Council gave a decision in the following cases: A Bishop, before the Ordination ceremony, declared that he had no intention of ordaining any candidates who were under age, and that if any such received the imposition of hands, it would be an empty ceremony. The answer was that those under age were not ordained.”

    “A certain Anthony Gonzalez de Acuna, Bishop of Charcas in South America, declared with an oath before an ordination ceremony that he intended not to confer orders on any candidate of mixed blood. Several such presented themselves and received the rite at his hands. The case was referred to Rome, and on 13 February, 1682, the Sacred Congregation of the Council, which while gravely rebuking the Bishop for his conduct, pronounced that the Orders were invalid in the case of those of mixed blood, and that all priestly acts performed by them were invalid.” (Principles of Sacramental Theology by Bernard Leeming, S.J.)
    The inescapable conclusion here is that Liénart, by an adverse sacramental intention alone, was clearly capable of destroying the Sacraments he is supposed to have conferred on Lefebvre.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Thuc Novus Ordo pics
    « Reply #21 on: Yesterday at 10:40:27 PM »
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  • Toward the end he quotes the theologians, but like Scuмmage here fails to notice that it has to be an internal to DO what the Church does, and not merely to perform the actions or the Rites.  If it were merely the latter, someone goofing around or mocking the Church by saying the essential form while pouring water on someone's head would in fact confect the Sacrament.  THAT LATTER SCENARIO is what's meant in the Catharinus condemnation.  If there need be an intention to actually bring about the Sacramental effect, then an atheist could never validly baptize.  Period.  That of course contradicts Pope Leo XIII.

    When +Lienart put on his vestments, went to a an Ordination Rite, he was intending to do what a minister of the Church does and seriously perform the Rite of the Church.  This guy above leaves out the part from St. Thomas where he says that, if a minister internally intended to do the Rite ... the Church imposes upon that Rite the Church's intention to achieve the Sacramental effect.  Those passages were cited when I was arguing with Sean Johnson about Catharinus.

    Offline St Giles

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    Re: Thuc Novus Ordo pics
    « Reply #22 on: Yesterday at 11:40:43 PM »
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  • Here's a guy who also shares Scuмmage's incorrect view of "internal intention", confounding the internal intention to do WHAT the Church does, i.e. to perform the Rite of the Church, and the internal intention to achieve the Sacramental effect.

    But, unlike Scuмmage ... he carries this error to its logical conclusion ...

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    Enter Cardinal Achille Liénart
    Marcel Lefebvre was “ordained” a priest in 1929 and “consecrated” a bishop in 1947. In 1970, five years after he signed the decrees of Vatican Council II, he founded the Society of St. Pius X (SSPX). Three years before he died in 1991, he “consecrated” four members of the SSPX as bishops. The problem regarding the validity of the consecration of these four men goes back to the man who ordained and consecrated them, Marcel Lefebvre. The problem with Marcel Lefebvre and his highly doubtful ability to confer Holy Orders goes back to his Seminary professor, the man who ordained and consecrated Marcel Lefebvre himself – Cardinal Achille Liénart, a socialist who had distinguished himself as an ultra liberal in Vatican Council II. He died in 1973, and received this eulogy from Time Magazine:Of greater concern to traditional Catholics than the fact that Liénart was a radical socialist was the fact that he was also a high-ranking Freemason. The proof for this assertion is compelling. Let us take a look at the evidence.
    Liénart the Mason
    Liénart was first exposed as being a high-ranking, 30 degree Freemason in a book titled L’Infaillibilité Pontificale (Papal Infallibility), which was written by a Chamberlain of Pope Pius XII, Marquis de la Franquerie, an experienced and accomplished Catholic author4 as well as a personal friend of Marcel Lefebvre. In fact, the second edition of L’Infaillibilité Pontificale contains a commendation from Lefebvre in which he expresses his appreciation to his “dear Marquis” for publishing the book.5
    This book revealed that Liénart was “a Luciferian who frequented black masses”6 and whose role at Vatican Council II was dictated to him from his Masonic superiors. In a footnote to the above quoted text, the Marquis explains:In addition to this book, there have also been several publications exposing Liénart as a Mason. One of these is a French periodical called Le Courrier Tychique, published by Max Barret, friend and former chauffeur of Marcel Lefebvre. This publication carried the story in its October 25, 2009 edition of Liénart’s deathbed confession to a traditionalist priest by the name of Canon Descornets. It said that Liénart not only confessed his Masonic membership, but that he further requested the Canon to make the fact of it public, and in order to facilite this, he released Canon Descornets from the seal of the confessional. The Canon complied with his request, but fearing reprecusions (he was still operating under his Vatican II bishop), he did so only to private audiences. It was from a first-hand witness at one of these audiences that Max Barret obtained the information that he published in his article.
    In March, 2013, Einsicht, a conservative German publication often quoted in attempting to prove the validity of the Thuc lineage, treated of the fact of Liénart's masonic membership and stated that Lefebvre acquaintance and ex-SSPX professor, Father Gerard des Lauriers, advised those who had beened ordained by Marcel Lefebrve to get themselves conditionally ordained again due to concerns about validity.
    Father Luigi Villa provides yet more evidence. He was said to have been commissioned by Cardinal Ottaviani to obtain docuмentation about high ranking Church officials suspected of being Masons. This task one day found Father Villa in Paris, waiting near a Masonic lodge for someone to provide him with docuмentary evidence confirming Liénart's Masonic membership, when he was assaulted and beat into unconsciousness. While pounding him, his assailent shouted: “There is a devil on this earth!” (Who is Father Luigi Villa? by Dr. Franco Adessa)
    (Another source of Liénart's masonic ties arose when an internal conflict within a Freemasonic Lodge in Italy, between Mino Pecorelli and his former Grand Master, Licio Gelli, spilled out into the public forum. As a result of this conflict, Pecorelli leaked out a membership list in July, 1976.  So many credible publications have since reprinted this list that its authenticity is beyond all reasonable doubt.  It should be noted, however, that Liénart's name was not found on the original list put out by Pecorelli, but made its way into the list at a later date, in which it stated: “Liénart, Achille, Cardinal. Grand Master top Mason. Bishop of Lille, France. Recruits Masons. Was leader of progressive forces at Vatican II Council.”8 Whether his name was added by Pecorelli himself or by someone else is unknown, which is why this is being given parathentically.)
    Lefebvre Acknowledges Liénart as a Freemason
    Most significant of all of the witness is none other than Marcel Lefebvre himself. In March of 1976, Chiesa Viva No.51, a magazine published in Rome, reproduced the story from the book L’infaillibilité Pontificale claiming that Achille Liénart was a high ranking Freemason, followed by another Italian periodical, Si Si, No No.
    In response to the article carried by Chiesa Viva, Lefebvre publicly acknowledged the fact that Liénart was a Freemason on at least two different occasions. The first occasion occurred in a public speaking engagment on May 11, 1976, in Minneapolis, Minnesota. Speaking in broken English, Lefebvre introduced Liénart as the leader of the progressives at Vatican Council II and as a Mason:Again in a speech given in Montreal on May 27, 1976:It is interesting to note that Lefebvre immediately started to defend the “validity” of his Orders, even though their validity had not been openly challenged. Presumably Lefebvre took this defensive posture because he knew about the doubtfulness of Orders emanating from a Freemasonic minister. In point of fact, he had good reason to be concerned.
    Freemasons – Valid Sacramental Intention?
    So the question naturally arises: If Liénart was a Freemason, what about Lefebvre’s Orders? Wouldn’t there be doubt concerning their validity? Fortunately, it is not necessary to “divine” the intentions of those who are Freemasons as to whether or not they would confer Holy Orders with the “intention to do what the Church does,” because nearly every pope since 1738 has published warnings about the Freemasons and their objectives. Here’s a sampling (emphases supplied):
    So bearing in mind that the destruction of Catholicism is the goal of the Freemason, let us examine Liénart the “Mason.”
    Liénart’s Doubtful Sacramental Intention
    We obviously have no way of knowing with certainty what Liénart’s intentions were when he first ordained and then later consecrated Marcel Lefebvre, only he and God know that, but we can draw a reasonable conclusion based upon what the popes have taught us about high-ranking Freemasons. This reasonable conclusion would tell us that it is highly improbable that Liénart would have “intended to do what the Church does” when he ordained and consecrated Marcel Lefebvre.
    Since, as just noted, the destruction of Catholicism is a Freemasonic objective, a question naturally arises: why would a high ranking Mason (Liénart) advance someone to further the interests of Catholicism and thereby undermine the interests of Masonry? It doesn’t add up, especially when one takes into account the directives that Pope Leo XIII issued to all of the bishops of the world about combating Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ:
    So again the question: why would Liénart ever consider validly consecrating Lefebvre, if as a result of that consecration Lefebvre would have been duty-bound to “extirpate” and to “tear away the mask” of Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ? What could have possibly motivated Liénart to do that?
    On the other hand, if Liénart was “wholly dedicated to bringing about the fall of the Church,” then one sure way of accomplishing that would be to destroy Apostolic Succession in the Church; and that could easily be achieved by secretly feigning the “ordinations” of priests and the “consecrations” of bishops. This writer suggests that this latter intention is the more probable one and more in keeping with right reason.
    Sacramental Intention is not Enslaved to the Form of the Sacrament
    The defenders of Lefebvre, however, would have us believe that if an enemy of Catholicism visibly used proper matter and form in their ordination and consecration ceremonies, then we have no choice but to accept that intention as good and the Sacrament as valid. This is not sound sacramental theology and a highly dangerous proposition, because in accepting this line of reasoning, one would have to enslave and subordinate the intention of the minister to the matter and form employed. Taking this line of reasoning to its logical conclusion, then if Anton LeVey, the founder of the Church of Satan, were to consecrate someone (supposing that he himself had obtained valid consecration, as Satanists sometimes did) by using proper matter and form, then we would have to accept that consecration at face value as being valid. But what intelligent person would accept this? What serious-minded Catholic would go to such a person for the Sacraments or entrust the welfare of their souls to him?
    The defenders of this external intention supposition rely on a false premise, based principally upon the misapplication of Pope Leo XIII’s encyclical Apostolicae Curae9 against the validity of Anglican Orders, which causes them to embrace a highly improbable scholastic theory which states that the “external intention” alone is sufficient for sacramental validity.
    In support of their position, they often quote a certain portion of this encyclical which states that: “A person who has correctly and seriously used the requisite matter and form to effect and confer a sacrament is presumed for that very reason to have intended to do what the Church does.” But in presenting this sentence out of the context of the paragraph which contained it, they either naively or deceptively distort the whole of what Pope Leo XIII taught. Here is the paragraph in its entirety:
    What Leo XIII is teaching here is that when the Anglicans changed the form of the Sacrament, they necessarily changed the intention of the Sacrament as well, either change being equally destructive of the Sacrament. He is not teaching that the intention is presumed valid in every case, without exception, provided that the form is not changed. This is obvious when he states that “but in so far as it [the intention] is manifested externally she is bound to judge concerning it.” So here we have the exception of a presumed good intention, i.e., an externally manifested intention otherwise.
    This is why in the hypothetical case about Anton LeVey one must reject any Orders he hypothetically would have conferred, because his membership in the Church of Satan is an external manifestation of something, i.e., his hostility to God and Catholicism. So likewise in the case of Liénart, his membership in Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ is an external manifestation of something as well, i.e., his hostility to God and Catholicism.
    Furthermore, Leo XIII’s statement that “a person who has correctly and seriously used the requisite matter and form to effect and confer a sacrament is presumed for that very reason to have intended to do what the Church does” cannot be construed to exclude from the term “seriously” the indispensible element of the sacramental intention, as Lefebvre's defenders would have us believe:
    It is also noteworthy that almost all theologians today reject the external intention theory and state that a minister of the Sacraments must have an internal intention to confer the Sacrament:This necessary internal intention is further confirmed by St. Thomas Aquinas:And by St. Alphonsus:And by Pope Alexander VIII who condemned the following (as already noted above):And finally by the Holy Office:The inescapable conclusion here is that Liénart, by an adverse sacramental intention alone, was clearly capable of destroying the Sacraments he is supposed to have conferred on Lefebvre.

    So, just to be clear, so nobody makes a mistake in reading what you quoted, I read it as confusing the internal and external intention, and that the Church judges only by manifest external intention surrounding the particular instance of conferring a sacrament. So, it doesn't matter what being a Freemason or Satanist suggests about one's intentions, if they have the ability to confer a sacrament, and they do it without manifesting an intention not to confer a sacrament for that particular instance, it is judged valid by the Church.

    Did I get that right?
    "Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect."
    "Seek first the kingdom of Heaven..."
    "Every idle word that men shall speak, they shall render an account for it in the day of judgment"


    Offline TomGubbinsKimmage

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    Re: Thuc Novus Ordo pics
    « Reply #23 on: Today at 05:20:31 AM »
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  • Debatable.  Not theologically settled. 
    You are correct.
    The common opinion is that it does cover though.