Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => Crisis in the Church => Topic started by: Trinity on June 20, 2010, 06:41:28 AM
-
July 26, 2006
Wednesday
vol 17, no. 195
The second person to be honored and enshrined into this year's Tower of Trent Hall of Honor is the greatly misunderstood Apostolic successor Pierre Martin Ngo-dinh-Thuc. After extensive research, this editor is fully confident that the readers' votes are justified and a public tribute is long overdue to this faithful warrior for the Truths and Traditions of Holy Mother Church. The above quote by Bishop Louis Vezelis, OFM, as he wrote in The Seraph. is our mission here to honor a man badly maligned and to assert the facts and truth as we have discovered after well over a month of thorough research into the life and labors of this beleaguered Successor of the Apostles who had a special mandate from two pre-Vatican II Pontiffs and many believe, though he took it with him to his grave, that he had been made a Cardinal of the Church in pectore by His Holiness Pope Pius XII. This logically points to why he was ostracized by the conciliarists and finally had to be silenced through betrayal by his own people just as his father and brothers had been. This then is this writer's attempt to provide the tragic, but triumphant story of Archbishop Peter Martin Ngo-dinh-Thuc.
Soldier of Christ
We say he was a "warrior" for, despite his pacifist nature, he was, at all times first and foremost, a soldier of and for Jesus Christ. In fact, those are the very words on his Coat of Arms - Miles Christi which in Vietnamese is Chin si Chúa Kitô. In life he truly represented the Church Militant in remaining ever true to the one, true Church our Lord founded upon the Rock of Peter (cf. St. Matthew 16: 18-19). We have titled his tribute "Soldier of Christ, Prisoner of War, Advocate of Truth" for he was indeed a prisoner of war in many ways, but always the upholder of the infrangible truths.
One must understand his roots and Oriental mindset to better comprehend his determination and the causes and effects of his life, while remembering that always - ALWAYS - he remained faithful to the Catholic Faith he was raised in from birth. The family's roots in Annam were in Dai-phong where his father had migrated from Tonkin.
Pierre Martin was born on the eve of the Feast of Our Lady of Victory on October 6, 1897 in the Village of Phu-Cam in the city of Hué - the "mystic capital of Annam" in central Vietnam not far from the coast of the South China Sea. He was the son of Ngo-Dinh-Kha, who as the Archbishop wrote in his autobiography published by The Seraph in 1983 and which Bishop Giles, OFM has graciously given us permission to employ for this tribute, "No Vietnamese will forget the names of Ngo-Dinh-Kha, my father who suffered a thousand deaths for not having voted with other dignitaries of the court to depose the emperor Than-Thai which was illegally imposed by the representative of France at Annam (Central Vietnam), and of my oldest brother Ngo-Dinh-Khoi, who was buried alive together with his only son for having refused to serve as a minister in the first Communist ministry. He refused because he considered it incompatible with being a Catholic."
If only Catholics today had the courage and conviction of Pierre Martin's father, the Church would not be in the crisis it is. Because western civilization has caved, we do find ourselves compromised. There is much to say about the discipline, loyalty to family and Catholic upbringing of the faithful Orientals as His Excellency's own memoirs attest: "It was impossible to be a Catholic and a Communist functionary." If only the modern church had realized that before John XXIII ordered the total concession to Communism with the disastrous Pact of Metz in August of 1962. But we are getting ahead of ourselves for at the time of young Pierre's upbringing there were holy Popes sitting on the Chair of Peter. He was born in the last years of the pontificate of the valiant opponent of the Red Menace - Pope Leo XIII and came of age during the papacy of the holy Pope Saint Pius X.
Vietnam for over a millennium had been a vassaldom, if you will, of China, and that addresses the Mandarin way of life. Yet, to this day the Vietnamese and Chinese remain enemies. Archbishop Thuc put it succinctly, that the Vietnamese may have been "conquered, but never ceased to resist." For 200 years the Vietnamese were deprived of the Sacraments and yet kept the Faith alive because of the dedication of the families who passed down the Faith to their children and so on. It also helped that the ancient mandarins of each village passed down the necessary education so that when the French colonized Indochina during the Nguyen Dynasty - as the Royal Court in this photo illustrates the customs at the turn of the century and the young emperor below. You'll note the Nguyen Dynasty Dragon and if you'll note in the Archbishop's Coat of Arms he has three dragons, no doubt a tie to the Nguyen Dynasty in Annam.
There were those already knowledgeable in the Faith. One such was Thuc's father who, while owing his allegiance to the young king of his province Thanh-Thai, enthusiastically was one of the pioneers in spreading the education of the French tongue throughout Central Vietnam, which, at that time was called "Annam." It was Ngo-dinh-Kha who founded the national college of his country: Quoc-Hoc. Because of his position, his sons rose in the ranks of mandarin with few problems as His Excellency recorded in his autobiography titled after the first verse of Psalm 88: Misericordias Domini in Aeternum Cantabo translated to "The mercies of the Lord I will sing forever" and published exclusively in The Seraph late in 1982 and throughout 1983. The Archbishop, in the same, wrote:
I am a Vietnamese. This explains my character. Just as being French aids in understanding the spirituality of the Little Flower, St. Theresa; just as being Castillian explains the character of the great Teresa of Avila.
That should definitely describe and be the rationale for what the western mindset might term as inferior. In truth, we are the ones inferior for this man so maligned by so many who are ignorant of the truth, have wrongly accused him. It is akin to us living in the times after Christ's Ascension and questioning the authority of the Apostle Paul. How dare a Jєω preach to Gentiles. How dare a humble and learned Oriental preach to the proud Occidental. This was most evident first in the attitude of the French toward the Vietnamese for they were not French citizens but vassals to the French. The Vietnamese have long memories and they naturally resented this considering they had been treated by the Chinese in the same manner. Thus the French had to work at being trusted. This most of the missionary priests did and great fruits were realized, but there also were those whose supposed superiority over these peasants of the rice paddies backfired. In retrospect, it is a clear answer to why France first failed, and then America failed in making Vietnam into a western-type country culturally. They already had their culture and this, even Rome didn't always recognize as His Excellency elaborated on several times in his autobiography. One reason the villagers were able to keep the Faith alive even without a priest or the sacraments over the centuries was because no one could overrule the village. This is important in not only understanding the mindset of the Vietnamese, but in realizing the futility of the French and more catastrophically the Americans in trying to subdue Vietnam and force it to become a democracy. Archbishop Thuc explains in his autobiography:
A Vietnamese village is like a little republic and deals with the State like two States. If the State imposed a tax for war of money and men, the elders of the village determined the amount each villager would have to pay and also decided who would be sent to the royal army. There was a Vietnamese proverb which said: "The decrees of the king bow to the customs of the village.'" The mayor, (Ly-truong) was not the head of the village but the representative of the village council before the superior authorities. However, it was on his head that the blows of the rattan-cane fell when the Authorities were not content with the village.
The Counselors of the village were, first of all the children of the village having the title of mandarin (ancient mandarins). Then, those who were learned and who had taken the triennial examinations for titles of Bachelor licentiate and Doctor. Finally, the citizens who were wealthy completed the membership of the council. It was in this council where intelligence was more important than wealth that allocations of rice fields were made to each citizen in equal parts. The rice fields were common property. These allocations were made every three years based on equal size but not on equal fertility.
The citizens only had as private property the lands which they themselves had cleared, while the common fields had been cleared at the time of the founding of the village by enterprising man who, after having reclaimed a "no man's land", recruited volunteers to help him found a new village. This is a social fact which shows the spirit of independence of the Vietnamese toward the higher authorities, while maintaining a friendly relationship as between two States.
Evidently, all this has been swept away by the leveling of modern egalitarianism. Is it for the better or the worse? At least, the ancient system was not inferior to the modern because we had two kinds of property: communal and private. We had the triennial repartitioning without the invasion of a totalitarian State. The independence of the citizen found a place where it could breathe without completely renouncing the advantages of a centralized State. This thirst for independence flows in the veins of the Vietnamese and explains millennial struggle against the Chinese, then against the French, all the while gaining from what was best in the Chinese and French civilization.
Here we get a glimpse of why South Vietnamese villagers did not betray the Vietcong for blood runs thicker than water and the VC were first of all Vietnamese, secondly Communists. In contrast, the Americans, who claimed to be liberators, were destroying the lifework of the villagers with their napalm. In looking back at that terrible war that divided the U.S. so bitterly, it was the politicking of Freemasons who would not allow the generals to conduct the war, just as is going on today in Iraq and elsewhere. The Freemasons of the State and Church call the shots and demand patriotism to Belial. My country, right or wrong is the mantra and it goes against God's Laws. As the Archbishop wrote: "It was impossible to be a Catholic and a Communist functionary," so also it is impossible to be a Catholic and an Americanist (Masonic) functionary." This is borne out in Pope Leo XIII's encyclical condemning Americanism.
But back to Archbishop Thuc. His family above from left to right, as best we can decipher, are the Archbishop's brothers Ngo-dinh-Nhu, Security Advisor; Ngo-dinh-Diem, first President of South Vietnam; Bishop Ngo-dinh-Thuc; his sister Ngo-dinh-Giao; Nhu's wife from 1943. formerly Tran Le Xuan who was originally from Hanoi and who converted from Buddhism to Catholicism and, because Diem was single, was considered the First Lady of South Vietnam as Madame Ngo-dinh-Nhu; older brother Ngo-dinh-Khoi, governor in the French administration of Vietnam for Indochina who after this picture was taken would be martyred by the Communists at the order of Ho Chi Minh for refusing to serve as a minister with the Viet Minh; younger brother Ngo-dinh-Can who would be duped into believing the Americans were giving him safe passage out of the country after the coup and he was killed by firing squad with Rosary in hand; Ngo-dinh-Luyen the youngest brother and Ambassador to Great Britain who took refuge in France along with the widow Madame Nhu and her family after the assassinations of Diem, Nhu and then Can. In the center is the Archbishop's mother whom, after celebrating Holy Mass, he took daily Communion to in her home in Phu-Cam every day at 7 a.m. before being back to his office by 9 a.m. He did this until her death at the age of 90. To the left of the matriarch are the two young Nhu boys and the two Nhu girls with the oldest (tallest) being Ngo-dinh-Nhu-Le Thuy who would be killed in a car accident in Paris in the late 60's. Yes, the young woman of a royal family dying in a car crash on the streets of Paris happened well before the tragedy of Diana. The family picture was most probably taken sometime between 1955 to 1960 and all are in the traditional garb. In his memoirs, the Archbishop wrote: "The circle of environment is the family. My family is Vietnamese as to race, and as to religion: Catholic after the manner of the Vietnamese which consists in fending for oneself without waiting for questionable aid from others. This is how the Church in Vietnam survived when the persecution of the kings deprived Her of foreign priests. A few, hiding in the forests, supported the Christians who considered themselves then very privileged to be able to receive the Sacraments once or twice in their entire lives."
Does this not put every Catholic, especially Traditional Catholic to shame for we have taken our faith for granted too many times and only now in these times are most deprived of regular attendance at the Immemorial Canonized Mass of All Ages - the Traditional Latin Mass. The rest have sold out, whether knowingly or not, to the Masonic-Modernist-Pagan and Protestant manmade rite concocted by the 33rd Degree Mason Annibale Bugnini and credited to Giovanni Montini as mandating an illegal rite. Only a few bishops resisted and all wavered at one time or another for the powerful influence of the conciliarists knows no bounds in lies and cover-up. This is something that followed Archbishop Thuc throughout his life and, as Bishop Louis Vezelis, OFM wrote in his tribute in 1984 in The Seraph: "Once a lie has done its work, truth must labor hard and long to dislodge it. Lies fly as if on wings; and truth comes slowly limping far behind. Such is the sad fate of mankind." It was these calumnies that Archbishop lived with as his cross for the last 21 years of his life.
While his brothers rose in the ranks of government officials within the village in service to the king, Pierre Martin heard a different calling and entered minor seminary at only twelve years-old. He wrote in his autobiography: "I accepted my priestly vocation without reservation as my battle station in this world. It mattered not where my post would be; it mattered not how I would die." Spoken like a true soldier of Christ.
After eight years of prep and college studies, he graduated to the major seminary in Hué in 1917, the same year Our Lady appeared at Fatima and the year Eugenio Pacelli was made a bishop in the Sistine Chapel on May 13th by His Holiness Pope Benedict XV. On December 20, 1925 at the age of 28, the Apostolic Vicar of Hué Bishop Eugène-Marie-Joseph Allys ordained young Pierre Martin to the priesthood. After his ordination he was assigned to the Sorbonne in Paris where his knowledge of French aided him greatly as well as ministering to the Vietnamese repatriated in the City of Lights. He was named a professor there. After a year's tenure he matriculated to the Pontifical Gregorian University in Rome where he obtained doctorates in Theology, Philosophy and Canon Law. As we can see, he was no dummy, but rather a very learned man, but also most practical. At the age of 30 he returned triumphantly to Hue where he was assigned as a professor at both the College of the Vietnamese Brothers and the Major Seminary in Hue. In addition he became dean of the College of Providence.
On January 8, 1938 His Holiness Pope Pius XI created the Vicariate Apostolic of Vinh Long in the southwestern tip of Vietnam. He personally chose Pierre Martin to become the new bishop there and sent as his emissary Archbishop Antonio Fernand Drapier, Apostolic Delegate to Indochina, to consecrate Bishop Thuc. His family was in attendance for this glorious event. In the rare photo to the right he is seen as a young bishop. A few months later the new Bishop returned to Rome where he had a private audience with His Holiness and obtained from the 259th Successor of Peter, and again later from the 260th Successor some years later an apostolic mandate to consecrate bishops in times of dire necessity when communications would be nearly impossible or the flock in danger. He hints of this very thing in the December 1983 issue of The Seraph when, he wrote of his advising the Vietnamese bishops he had consecrated of what to do if ever the Communists took control, "not to publish the names of newly ordained priests; request from the Holy See the faculty for each Bishop to name one or two successors without having to request authorization from the Holy See in case of breakdown of communication with the Vatican." This rationale would serve him in the time of The Great Apostasy when he realized there was a total breakdown of communication with the Vatican for the men who ran Rome during and after the Council had sold Christ out. Thus he continued his apostolic mandate after his exile, which we will delve into more later in this tribute.
In light of the above, it is important to remember here the collusion of the Communists and Masons with the Church beginning with Angelo Roncalli and Giovanni Montini's own participation in both Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ and Communist circles when both were nuncios. That very same humanism, condemned by previous reliable Popes from Pope Paul IV through Pope Pius XII, was exactly the agenda fostered by the conciliar popes John XXIII and Paul VI, not to mention the Communist's man in Poland - none other than Karol Wojtyla himself, an avowed hater of the nαzιs but a sympathizer to the Soviets because of their influence in his native Poland which enabled him to rise in the ranks while the Cardinal Primate of Poland Cardinal Stefan Wyszinski was limited by the Red forces because of his staunch opposition to the devastating consequences of the hammer and sickle. That is why the Archbishop realized the time of Epikeia mandated that he continue the succession of true apostles after he discovered Paul VI had changed the rite of ordination and consecration of bishops, thus making those invalid as another honoree this year Father Anthony Cekada so brilliantly laid out and docuмented in his work "Absolutely Null and Utterly Void" on the 1968 Rite of Episcopal Consecration which, in fact, lays bare the truth that the current conciliar "pope" isn't even an authentic bishop.
In 1960 the French Archbishop Jean-Baptiste Urrutia, who had been the Archbishop of Hue since 1948, submitted his resignation. John XXIII, who had come up through the ranks of the Apostolic nuncios and was virtually clueless about the Orient, chose the most available - Bishop Pierre Martin. His Excellency tells of this in a visit to the Holy See as dean when he brought with him ten of his bishops and Roncalli bluntly asked, "What is this 'Vietnam'?" Truly clueless and the Archbishop wrote in The Seraph: "And John XXIII was the Vicar of Him Who declared 2000 years ago: 'I know My sheep and My sheep know Me.' There should be no surprise, then, that Paul VI had bad feelings toward my family, and especially towards myself going to the extent of even imposing my resignation as archbishop before the fixed age for the age for retirement of bishops. In my stead, he named one of his favorites imbued with the political philosophy of 'opening to the East.'" This was Archbishop Philippe Nguyen-Kim-Dien whom Archbishop Thuc had consecrated as Bishop of Can-Tho hours after Archbishop Drapier had consecrated Thuc, but didn't have the time or energy to consecrate the bishops and so left that up to Thuc. So much for dedication on Drapier's part. It was a known fact that Dien was a saboteur of all Thuc undertook as well as being a sympathizer to the Communists. Paul VI knew this very fact. In fact, the logs say Archbishop Thuc was Archbishop of Hué from 1960 to 1968 when he was forced to resign by Paul VI. The latter inserted Dien on September 30, 1964 as the Coadjutor Archbishop of Hué. Dien was Paul VI's spy for the Reds in accordance with the agonizing aggiornamento of the Pact of Metz, an abominable accord Montini himself was part of in August 1962 with the Modernist and Communist sympathizer Cardinal Tisserant signing over the patrimony of the Church and betraying the Fatima message from Heaven to the Soviets, represented by Nikodim, Metropolitan of the KGB-run Russian Orthodox. This betrayal of Holy Mother Church to the Kremlin was held in the house of the Bishop of Metz Bishop John Schmitt and resulted in millions being martyred for the Faith behind the Iron Curtain including Vietnam. For representation at the Second Vatican Council, Roncalli's blind openness was one-sided in the fact that the conciliar church gave away the store and the Communists gladly took the dupe for all they could. This very same collusion is what betrayed Archbishop Thuc in the most bitterest of ways.
His older brother Ngo-dinh-Khoi had already been martyred - buried alive because he refused to cooperate with the first Communist government of Vietnam. Such treatment was typical of the true Ostpolitik of the Communists. His other three brothers Ngo-dinh-Can, and Ngo-dinh-Nhu and Ngo-dinh-Diem were all devout Catholics. While Thuc was ascending in ecclesial ranks, Diem was ascending in government ranks. When the king was deposed, Diem was elected by the people as the President of South Vietnam - the Father of the Republic of Vietnam. He, like his brother Thuc had begun in the seminary as well but he could not stomach fish and thus was told he had to leave the novitiate for the allergy would effect his ministry. Despite the propaganda from Masonic-Zionist news sources in the west, Diem was loved by the people and Vietnam flourished under the same system spoke of earlier in cooperating with the villagers. As His Excellency confirmed, when funds to build a seminary or a college were not readily available, thanks to niggardly greed by the Apostolic Vicar of Saigon Bishop Dumortier who, truth be told, did not play fair, giving Thuc only that which Dumortier did not want - the dregs that is. Despite these obstacles, the Holy See in the mid 50's asked nigh unto the impossible: build a university for his Vicariate. Thuc entrusted this mission to Our Lord and His Blessed Mother and through providence founded the University of Dalat on a high plateau where the weather was perpetually spring-like and there were abundant water sources, streams and flat property high above the humid forests. Pine trees could indeed be found here, something unique for this climate.
In time he had masterminded a magnificent college using ingenuity and contacts. Throughout his life no one could ever accuse His Excellency of not being a can-do person. He was most enterprising, which would serve him well when he built a seminary in the center of Saigon on wasteland that became a treasure. Only after it was built did Dumortier want something he had given away and wanted nothing to do with it originally. The matter, which was part and parcel of the ecclesiastical law and tradition in the missions in conjunction with the wishes of the Sacred Congregation for the Propagation of the Faith in stating that when an indigenous bishop was appointed the missionary bishop would turn over to him those facilities that were already well-developed. Dumortier thought differently and gave Thuc the dregs of what he had. Thuc took the abuse until Dumortier demanded too much. Then it went all the way to Rome where Thuc was exonerated and this infuriated Dumortier all the more, for he was French and Thuc was Vietnamese. On Dumortier's part this victory by Thuc in the Sacred Rota caused bad feelings that not only found their way back to Rome with rumors and lies, but filtered down to those coming up. Despite these hardships, jealousies, and thievery against Bishop Thuc, he still treated all as friends. This, in a nutshell, also could attribute to why he was used by several - both in his pre-Vatican II days and his post-Vatican II days. He trusted people to be honest.
It was the priests and the parishioners who endeared themselves to their shepherd Bishop Thuc, providing him with an old Citroen when they saw the prehistoric bike he had been given would not do. In the mold of the Cure of Ars Saint John Marie Vianney, Bishop Thuc made sure his priests strove for holiness. He had requested an additional priest from Dumortier and the latter sent him a sɛҳuąƖ predator. Yes, even back then the modernists had infiltrated and were harboring these ne'r-do-wells who so scandalize souls. Thuc refused him and sent him back. He, unlike all Modernist bishops today, would not put up with a priest who caused scandal, let alone ravaged parishioners. As the Archbishop wrote in his autobiography, it didn't mean his priests were saints - far from it, but he handled any discrepancies discreetly and mandating monthly retreats for his priests from 7 a.m. to noon helped him keep them on the straight and narrow. It was a wise and prudent practice he continued as Archbishop of Hué. He said Holy Mass every morning and then walked to Phu-Cam where he brought daily Holy Communion to his dear aging mother. His many acts of charity will someday become legend as his story is told to more, and many more details are revealed of his heroic charity to family, friend and foe.
And speaking of foe, they were forming, both within the Vatican after the passing of Pius XII and from the north with the infiltration of the Communists - the Vietcong. Here also the politics intensified for already John XXIII was sensitive to the Communists and this showed in new Rome's fears that Diem was too much of an anti-Communist. Because of Ostpolitik other religious orders were on the alert to stay clear of Archbishop Thuc for his brother was the President of South Vietnam. Those in the curia transferred these fears and prejudices to Giovanni Montini in the Summer of 1963. Rather than Paul VI meeting or hearing Archbishop Thuc. he chose to get into bed with the avowed Freemason Henry Cabot Lodge the Ambassador who had replaced the pro-Diem Ambassador Fritz Nolting. What basically it was here was a collusion of Freemason, Modernist and Communists collaborating for goals that contradicted the Social Reign of Christ. Ever since then the humanistic agenda has been the main initiative of the conciliar church in the same manner Benedict XVI today calls for peace in syncretic terms that deny the dogma of the Faith.
Despite any shortcomings Diem may have had, he was always there to assist his brother for, his Catholic upbringing placed in perspective the preservation and propagation of the Faith as top priority. Needless to say this was something that did not play well with the Communists or Western Freemason-Zionist press and political machine that was formulating a war to cover both a burgeoning raw opium drug cartel that would play a bitter part in the dumbing and numbing down of America, and the opportunity to capitalize on the spoils of war for the Korean War had fizzled out in 1954 and the U.S. needed to establish itself in the far east as they rebuilt Japan. Because of the fear of China growing stronger and the misconception that democracy has all the answers, they had chosen Vietnam when the French cowardly retreated, washing their hands of the whole mess. Diem was the most stable and, with the recommendation of Cardinal Francis Spellman, President Dwight D. Eisenhower and the American coalition backed him against Bao-Dai as long as it served their interests. To this day the American mindset does not understand the Oriental mentality and that is where, time and again, the occidental runs into trouble. Thanks to the revolution in Rome and then in the west with mores and morals, the "me" generation surfaced in the 60's. Many say the end of "Camelot" came with the death of John Fitzgerald Kennedy, but he was no King Arthur, more in the line of the Lothario Sir Lancelot or worse, quite possibly a Mordred. No, in reality the real end of "Camelot", though long decaying, occurred five years earlier with the death of Pius XII on October 9, 1958.
It was not Camelot that Diem was trying to maintain, but the way of life for all Vietnamese. Among one million fleeing from the Communists in the North, over one-hundred-thousand Roman Catholic Vietnamese were included and helped establish a Catholic refuge in Annam and further south. In the exodus from the north came many Buddhists as well for the majority of the citizenry were Buddhist and at times Diem walked a fine line in pleasing all. But he was not a syncretist, and he made no bones of his Catholicity. The precedent had already been set on June 5, 1963 when an impromptu celebration was held for the returning Archbishop Thuc from Rome for the summer after a Corpus Christi Procession with His Excellency officiating. Considering that John XXIII had just died two days earlier, the Vietnamese Catholics were in mourning, and yet needed to express their emotions. Catholic flags were everywhere and His Excellency was a bit embarrassed by it all in this time of interregnum, but acquiesced to the adulation by the people, believing it would unify the Vietnamese. However, previously, fearing a religious war, it was Thuc himself who had persuaded the local officials to forbid the display of Buddhist flags during Buddhist holidays. One of the main reasons for this edict was that some were using the flags as clothes and attending Mass in these makeshift Buddhist flags. The Archbishop in his autobiography told of the lack of clothing and that was one reason some parishioners did not attend Mass. Ingenuity won out for they had used the flags of France for clothes; the boys wearing the red as shorts, the girls the blue as a dress and the white used for veils and other clothing. When necessary the latter were dyed in black. Some adopted the same concept with the Buddhist flag, but it was obvious and, to His Excellency, it was a sacrilege to wear a pagan symbol in the presence of the King of kings. Thus, the most expedient way to make sure there was not a plethora of Buddhist flags to confiscate for clothing, was not to display them. The edict passed and few thought much about it until the Catholic flags, were hoisted to celebrate Thuc's return and give tribute to John XXIII for few among them knew of the betrayal Roncalli had wrought. The celebration in the streets of South Vietnam would be short-lived.
Prisoner of War
Unfortunately this outwardly enthusiastic Catholic spontaneity would backfire for the Diem regime because of Communist infiltration within Buddhist ranks. The Vietcong of Ho Chi Minh knew Diem's defense of the True Faith and sought to paint him into a corner from which he could not escape. Minh had already eliminated the Ngo brother Khoi. The Reds planned the opportunity for a Buddhist holiday and when no Buddhist flags could be flown, a few doused themselves in gasoline, ala ѕυιcιdє bombers today. Rather than be perceived as the nut-jobs they were, the western press saw them as victims and Diem's influence began to crumble. Oh, the power of the press - the Masonic-Zionist fourth estate. American interests, two-faced as always, plotted behind Diem's back for a coup by his own generals in the ARVN. Picture Judas (Henry Cabot Lodge) going to the Sanhedrin (mutinous generals behind Diem's back) trying to pin down the exact time of the coup when Diem would be captured. In all fairness, JFK had instructed Lodge that Diem and his family should not be harmed but flown out of the country, but this was not the intent of the Vietnamese Sanhedrin nor the CIA and the head of operations at the time Lou Conein, an avowed anti-Catholic. This was carried out despite the cautious objections of CIA senior officers Sherman Kent, William Colby, Far East Division Chief, Huntington Sheldon, R. Jack Smith, and DCI John McCone. They were gravely concerned over the repercussions and the instability that would occur. Wise advice that was not followed. And one wonders today why no one in the CIA or FBI know what the right hand is doing to the left and vice versa? Iraq is proof of the CIA's incompetency. The coup in Saigon is proof of their maliciousness. The picture above left was taken five days before Diem's death on the celebration of the Anniversary of the Republic of Vietnam as the Freemason Lodge smiles sinisterly, knowing Diem's days were numbered. The generals paid in blood money by the CIA were, left to right in the foreground above General Duong Van Minh who commandeered the coup d'tat and took over afterwards, and who then betrayed his own men standing next to him in the picture: General Le Van Kim (center) and General Tran Van Don (far right). The murders were ordered by General Mai Huu Xuan. Thus, they chose the day of the dead - early on November 2 to corner Diem and his brother Nhu who, seeing the handwriting on the wall, had been alerted at the last moment of the coup and escaped to the sanctuary of St. Francis Xavier Catholic church in Cholon City where they made their peace with God. Assured by a prominent parishioner, a Chinese businessman, that he could get them out of the country, he called for a limo to escort them to the airport. Instead, as Griff Ruby so magnificently detailed in his Eighth Chapter of his excellent book The Resurrection of the Roman Catholic Church, a military van pulled up and whisked the two brothers away. Griff confirms what the declassified formerly top-secret Pentagon Papers have also verified that one of Diem's enemies Captain Nhung ordered the van to stop by a railroad trestle and while the train rumbled by, Diem and Nhu were shot to death. Shortly thereafter their other brother Can was promised safe passage out of the country if he gave himself up. He too was betrayed and died in front of a firing squad with a Rosary in his hands and instructing the riflers to "aim high" pointing to his heart. With the Ngo-dinh-Diem regime overthrown, America would rue the day for three weeks later Kennedy would also be dead in Dallas. What America had allowed and encouraged was akin to what happened in Cuba. They got rid of Baptista only to get a Castro. Hardly progress, especially in lieu of the fact that Lyndon Baines Johnson - the perfect seedy counterpart to Giovanni Montini in possessing the lack of integrity and trust - would lead the U.S. into a bloody and, as we can see now, senseless war which America, in effect when the results were finally tallied, lost at the cost of over 60,000 American lives and which, ten years later in 1974 would sell out the Vietnamese to Communism in - where else - Paris where President Richard Nixon and Henry Kissinger, pummeled by dissension, caved. Both America and the Modernists in the Church sold the people out. Ah, yes, all hail aggiornamento and democracy!
Meanwhile in Rome, Archbishop Thuc was still attending the Second Vatican Council, which at the time undoubtedly saved his life. Yet when he discovered what had happened and how he was shunted by those who, you would think, would offer condolences, he realized he was a man without a country. So also was the outspoken Madame Nhu, widow of Ngo-dinh-Nhu. She had been at the forefront of a morality movement in defending and promoting the Catholic culture which many equated to what the Trung sisters - Trung-trac and Trung-schi had inspired in Vietnamese history when they spurred the Vietnamese to resist the Han Dynasty of China from invading Vietnam nearly 2000 years ago. Madame Nhu had done much to foster Catholic Action as the wife of Thuc's brother who was head of Can Lao - the Secret Police and Political Movements. She had worked to outlaw all abortion, contraceptives, and public occasions that would lead to temptation such as the dance halls, animal fighting, beauty pageants, etc. More importantly, and one reason she was a target of character assassination was because she had succeeded in closing down houses of prostitution and the opium dens. Less than a month prior she had publicly stated what we know today: "I don't know why Americans dislike us. Is it because the world is under a spell called liberalism? Your own public, here in America, is not as anti-Communistic as our is in Vietnam." Just as the Zionist-Masonic press had done to another Catholic a decade earlier - Senator Joseph McCarthy when he warned against Communism, they downplayed the red threat and sought to deride and vilify Madame Nhu as the "Dragon Lady." One thing is certain: she was not afraid to speak her mind. After the assassination of her husband and brother-in-law she flew to Rome from Los Angeles where she had been during a public relations tour with the real intent to expose - in a cross country tour - the atrocities Kennedy had been allowing in Vietnam but the U.S. countered with the coup. Upon hearing of the death of her beloved, she stated to the press "Whoever has the Americans as allies does not need enemies." As we can see since then she was right on, including her prediction that things would only grow bleaker in Vietnam and the United States' troubles were just beginning in the Far East. In later years she would echo the futility of the madness of the Modernists when she said, "If one has no courage to denounce, if one bows to madness and stupidity, how can one ever hope to cope with the other wrongs of humanity exploited in the same fashion by Communists?" Evidently she was speaking of both politics and religion. Clueless ones would ask if she had ever heard of "dialog" for that seems to be the answer to the continued debasement of society today and the abandonment of the Social Reign of Jesus Christ, King of all nations. Immediately following the coup, Madame Nhu and her daughter immediately flew to Rome to be with her brother-in-law Archbishop Thuc in attendance at the Council, and where his youngest brother Ngo-din-Luyen, then serving as the Vietnamese diplomat to England, flew in from London as well. Reunited, Archbishop Thuc tried to reassure the remains of his family that things would be okay, but he knew.
Not only the loss of most of his family, but the loss of the sensus Catholicus at the council bothered him greatly. It is interesting to note that at the very time he learned of the fate of his brothers, he was involved in the Conciliar schema of the Blessed Mother's role in the Church as Mother of the Church. This title and honor barely passed with the progressivists losing out by only 40 votes 1114 placet (it pleases) to 1074 against non placet. Intuitively, his heart so humanly aching, Archbishop Thuc could see the handwriting on the conciliar wall. Even our Blessed Mother was not immune from the deconstruction of her divine Son's Church. It was nigh unto spiritual heartbreak as well.
Regarding Thuc's participation, it should be noted here in defense of His Excellency the following. During the earlier part of the Council when Roncalli was still alive ideas had been invited and he had offered some wild ones that to the occidental mind might seem bizarre, but considering it was part of the flow and everyone was offering their two-cents worth, he rationalized that his oriental ideas were something he could suggest as a voice when asked, and the fact that after the council he never broached the subject again, his radical ideas spoken of at the council can be placed in the context of the time. Is there any out there who have said things at some time in their life that, in retrospect, they would take back had they thought more on it? We can imagine him being there and trying to compensate taking all this time away from his flock in Hué. How could he justify that to his people. Therefore he probably felt he should speak up. Another interesting point is that he was an oriental in an occidental world. Confusion and coercion reigned supreme. Add to that fact that few knew Latin, which left many voting on things they really had no idea about and thought of it as more of a game of darts. With such cavalier attitude the conciliar church forged its beginnings, for to these shapers of history nothing was sacred and the Progressivists ruled, headed by Cardinals Suenens and Marty, aided by the Hegelian mindset of men like Teilhard de Chardin, Henri de Lubac, Karl Rahner, Eduard Schillebeeckx, Hans Kung, Yves Congar, and a young progressivist named Joseph Ratzinger.
Thuc felt the betrayal further when he was not only not allowed by Montini to return to his beloved See of Hué, but the man who had sought to undermine him throughout his bishopric in Hué - Bishop Philippe Nguyen-Kim-Dien was named the coadjutor Archbishop of Hué in 1964. Once the Council concluded, Thuc was a man without a country. Left to fend on his own by Montini, he took up residence with the pastor of a church in Luxemburg. Jealousies soon ensued when the pastor realized Thuc was more popular in the confessional and when the Archbishop was sought out during Mass by a penitent to hear her confession, the closest confessional was the pastor's. Thuc, not thinking of protocol but only on absolving a penitent, heard the woman's confession. Afterwards the pastor railed at His Excellency for daring to use the pastor's confessional. Talk about petty. It got worse when on a scorching day in the summer, the Archbishop returned from the convent of the Sisters to take a much needed shower and the pastor would not let him. That was the last straw for the mild-mannered Vietnamese prelate. Such was the treatment Thuc would receive in the west.
Nevertheless, he was offered refuge with the Cistercian monks at the Abbey of Casamari, founded by the holy Saint Bernard of Clairvaux and where, in the late 1960's there was plenty of room since vocations were so few. No wonder! Vatican II had taken care of that. He became the monks favorite confessor as well as popular with the 5,000 souls in the parish attached to the Abbey. He remained there 15 months and things went well until the Abbot had been removed because of a controversial nude painting in the monastery that Thuc was afraid would be associated with him because his name was noted near the painting. Thus in strictest confidence he had written to the Abbot of the Order for fear of scandal and asking that his name be removed or the painting taken down. He was going through all the proper channels and yet, he was sabotaged by the very ones he was appealing to. Rather than observing this confidence, as the conciliar church since has proven they cannot tell the truth, they betrayed Thuc's very confidence and Thuc became unfairly labeled a constant "trouble-maker" in all echelons of the Vatican.
Becoming persona non grata in the Abbey, and in his own country when Dien was named permanent Archbishop of Hué and Thuc was refused a visa to return, engineered by Montini himself, is there any doubt Thuc felt betrayed? Granted nothing but the useless title of the Titular Bishop of Bulla Regia, wherever that is, he felt the sting all the more when there was a great celebration at the University he founded at Dalat and not one mention of his name. As the Archbishop wrote: "The name of the founder of the university was never mentioned, not even once, because his name is displeasing to the present occupants of the Vatican. All is well that ends well. I established the university in obedience to the Vatican of other days. God had helped me. To Him all honor and all glory forever and ever. Amen." At least the people had gathered Diem and Can's bloody bodies and gave them a proper Catholic burial with a special monument built where they are honored to this day as not the corrupt regime, but one that history - true history, not revisionist history, has exonerated. So also their brother Ngo-dinh-Thuc should be totally exonerated and elevated to the true position he rightly deserves in the history of the Restoration of Holy Mother Church and the annals of Vietnamese history.
But he would never return to his homeland. Left to fend for his own in Italy, Archbishop Thuc sought out the Bishop of Casamari for a place to offer his services and receive housing. Rather than taking him into the Bishop's home, he was pawned off to a poor parish on the hill with few parishioners to stay there for even the pastor didn't live by the church. While the pastor lived well, Thuc was forced to see to his own needs. Here was a noted prelate under a simple country priest. Talk about the humility of Vianney. Yet Thuc accepted this cross and turned it into triumph by gaining the reputation of always being available for confession and the greatest comfort to the sick and the agricultural families of the area. He was a true shepherd even when his flock had been taken away. It was in this church in Arpino in central Italy where the Christmas creche, something first fashioned by St. Francis of Assisi but evidently never reaching Arpino - finally was introduced for the Christmas vigil of 1975. While he was wowing the children with the beautiful figurines of the Christmas story, a knock came on the door.
It was a knock that would forever taint the reputation of this venerable Vietnamese Archbishop. However, in retrospect, one has to look at it all in perspective. The one sent was from Econe - one Father Revaz, who had taught Canon Law at the Society of St. Pius X seminary under Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre. In the same vein as the Life cereal ad conveyed in 1971, when the kids in the commercial gave the bowl of cereal to "Mikey" because "Mikey hates everything" but then finishing the bowl they all exclaimed, "Mikey likes it!", so also Lefebvre pawned off the consecrations on Thuc via his former Canon Revaz in Pilate-like fashion. If not, he would have warned Thuc not to do the consecrations. But Thuc was hit with the authority of Revaz coming from Lefebvre, whom the Archbishop had known from Econe, on Christmas Eve with the message from Revaz: "Excellency, the Holy Virgin sends me to bring you immediately to the heart of Spain to render her a service. My car is waiting at the door of the rectory and we will leave right away in order to be there on Christmas Day." What could His Excellency do? He could have said no and returned to the children, but the very fact it came from Revaz, recommended by Lefebvre, and Our Lady was invoked as the one requesting his presence, he responded: "If this is a service demanded by the Holy Virgin, I am ready to follow you to the ends of the earth." Excusing himself, he left for that fated trip to the region of Palmar de Troya in Spain.
In this village just outside of Seville, the visionary of purported apparitions of the Blessed Mother, Clemente Dominguez y Gomez had supposedly received messages that Our Lady was appearing and wanted more priests ordained. Why Thuc was selected is probably a series of subtraction. Lefebvre wouldn't do it, so Thuc was next. Some, who are not favorable to the "una cuм Wojtyla" and now "una cuм Benedictis", wonder why Lefebvre did not warn Thuc. They ask if it was so that Thuc might serve as a possible "guinea pig" or "sacrificial lamb," so to speak, to see how Modern Rome would respond and give Lefebvre an inkling how far he could go in the future regarding ordinations and consecrations. The reason for this line of thought is the fact Lefebvre did not warn Thuc beforehand of Palmar de Troya even though he knew that his former "employee" - the Canon of St. Maurice - had joined the Palmar de Troya group, and the founder of the SSPX was apprehensive of the apparitions. That is one reason some think Thuc was set up. Griff Ruby provides another possible scenario, "One thing that is known about Father Revas is that though he had been a professor at Econe, by the time Palmar de Troya was starting up he had already left Econe (perhaps rather amicably, in view of his subsequent ability to approach Archbishop Lefebvre) and became a formal member of the Palmar de Troya sect. There is no evidence that Lefebvre wanted to set Thuc up, but rather something more of a 'brush-off' to make Father Revas go away by giving him a name and an address which Lefebvre hoped would be for Revas a dead end. ('Let Thuc answer these idiots; he's got the time and the patience.') It was Father Revas who pretended to Thuc on his own initiative any authorization from Lefebvre which he simply did not have."
What is a fact is that Thuc, to this point, had not been that visible despite his fame with his brother Diem, whereas Lefebvre had been highly visible to all as "one of the few bishops holding out against the changes." Thuc's lack of knowledge of these apparitions, his simple faith in the possibility it was truly Mary who was appearing, and the fact he was deceived by those seeking his help provides evident proof that Thuc cannot be blamed for these ordinations for the Carmelite Order of the Holy Face and the subsequent consecrations which they sweet-talked him into a few weeks later on January 11, 1976 when he consecrated Clemente Dominguez y Gomez as well as Manuel Alonso Corral, Camilo Estevez, Michael Donnelly, and Francis Sandler O.S.B. (Francis Fox). Little did he realize he had been set up. Yet he knew he would be in trouble with Paul VI who he still acknowledged at the time, only sensing that Paul VI had sold him and his brother and the rest of his family out as noted how Montini tried to buy the Archbishop's silence in 1970 as told to Father Michael Louis Guerard des Lauriers and docuмented in the Appendix of his In Memoriam for the Archbishop published in the August 1, 2002 issue of "Catholic." Sure enough, the Vatican heard about the consecration and by July of 1976 he was formally excommunicated. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. Nevertheless, Thuc, the obedient shepherd repented when he realized he had been duped. Thus he was reinstalled on September 17, 1976. He returned to Arpino until he was invited to take up residence in Toulon, France by a Vietnamese family. Feeling homesick and not being able to return to his beloved homeland, this was the next best thing and he took up the offer.
He publicly disavowed the consecrations of those at Palmar de Troya when Dominguez proclaimed himself Pope Gregory XVI on the death of Paul VI in 1978. But as the years went on his resentment grew for the Modernists who did all they could to cover up truth whether it was doctrine or what had happened to his brothers and why he could not return to his beloved Hue, and that three million Vietnamese had fled his beloved land for America, with hundreds of thousands perishing in the South China Sea in what would be called the "exodus of the 'boat people'." Hung out to dry in Europe, the Archbishop turned all the more to study the changes since Vatican II and realized the conciliar church was not Catholic in any shape or form. It was during this time he reconsecrated several who came to him who had been consecrated in the Old Catholic church but wanted to be part of the Traditional Catholic Movement. Thus he conditionally consecrated men like Claude Nanta de Torrini as well as Roger Kozik and Michel Fernandez, who like Palmar de Troya, had duped him. Would he ever learn?
Advocate of Truth
Remember, he was a trusting soul. By this time he realized he had been used by all who had approached him, and he began saying no to those he now knew were not worthy. It was thus with great discretion that he exercised his apostolic duty for the next three he consecrated - the last ones he would consecrate. Two of those men would go on to serve as the fulcrum for the authentic Apostolic succession in the Traditional Movement today in what is commonly called the "Thuc-line" successors. These consecrations took place in Mary's months of May and October, first on May 7, 1981 when Archbishop Thuc consecrated the very organizer and promoter of the Ottaviani Intervention sought him out: Father Michel Louis Guerard des Lauriers, O.P. Few realize that Cardinal Alfredo Ottaviani only wrote the Introduction and it was des Lauriers who, with a team of Traditional Theologians, composed the bulk of the report. Fr. des Lauriers had realized as the years went by that he could no longer abide by the newChurch and its abominable changes. He understood only too well the prophesy of Pope Leo XIII's motu proprio that "the pastor will be struck, the sheep scattered." The "mystery of iniquity" spoken of by Saint Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2: 7 had indeed been made manifest. This highly-regarded Dominican was no slouch for he had taught at the Pontifical University and had been one of Pius XII's confessors. He was a renowned theologian of the Church and a devote teacher of all the Truths and Traditions of Holy Mother Church. His dissatisfaction with the conciliarists led to his teaching at Econe until he had to resign there as well because of the vacillating of Archbishop Lefebvre and the nasty games Montini and then Karol Wojtyla were playing. He realized a true Pope could not teach error and these men had, heresies in all their nuances. Thus he realized before God that the chair was vacant. Realizing also the invalidity of Paul VI's new rite of ordination and consecration, he saw the necessity for the true succession of bishops and turned to Archbishop Thuc as a valid successor to keep the true line going. Because of his credentials, Thuc knew he was the ideal candidate and thus on May 7, 1981 the Archbishop happily consecrated Bishop des Lauriers. It was also a cleansing, if you will, by His Excellency to rid from his system the one time he had ever participated in the Novus Ordo which he did on Holy Thursday in 1981 at the bequest of the Bishop of Toulon. Needless to say, it was the only time he had and never again. He felt dirty, violated, and begged forgiveness from his Lord and Savior.
One thing to note here, and it has been docuмented several times as to the authenticity of des Lauriers' consecration as well as the next two, is a fact totally separate from the consecrations but speaks volumes as to not only the validity of, but recognition of the Church's stance of sedevacantism. If the former confessor of Pope Pius XII, one who was a renowned theologian, and as noted, the most brilliant of those who presented the infrangible truths to Paul VI with the Ottaviani Intervention, believed the chair was vacant for the conciliar popes had abdicated by their public heresy of deviating from the Faith, how can Traditional apologists, so blinded by the evidence that the conciliar popes are not Catholic, justify that it was not heresy then and even more blatant heresy today - heresy that has continued unabated and grown much worse? Never mind that it is accepted today as normal by the general populace who have been dumbed down. Saint Augustine said it so clearly: "Right is right even if no one is doing it, and wrong is wrong even if everyone is doing it."
Later in 1981, while in Munich, Germany Archbishop Thuc was contacted by two priests of Trento formed by Father Moises Carmona, Joaquin Saenz Arriaga and Adolfo Zamora in Mexico who realized the necessity to pass on the Truths and Traditions of the Faith meant more priests were needed and that entailed authentic, valid, uncompromising Catholic Bishops. Fathers Carmona and Zamora traveled to Munich, where Bishop Carmona docuмents himself the following:
On October 17, Father Zamora and I were consecrated by Archbishop Thuc in a virtual catacomb, with only two distinguished doctors as witnesses. Both of us were conscious of the furious storms of protest that would come, but the words of our Divine Master encouraged us: 'You shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice; and you shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy' (St. John, 16: 20).
On our return to Mexico, the attacks began. Some said, without any foundation, that our consecrations were invalid because we were consecrated with the new rite; others, more serious, said that, based on Canons 953 and 2370, the consecrations were valid but illicit, and that consequently we were suspended. [Ed. note: It has been docuмented that Archbishop Thuc used the traditional rite of episcopal consecration - not the new rite - when he consecrated Bishops Carmona and Zamora.]
As can be seen, our detractors were ignoring the axiom Qui cuм regula ambulat, tuto ambulat - "He who walks with the rule, walks safely." They should remember, if they had forgotten, that Pope Gregory IX left eleven rules and Boniface VIII eighty-eight for the true interpretation of the law. These rules, according to Canon 20, can supply the defect of the rule in a particular case, as in the case we presently find ourselves. Consequently, the fourth rule of Gregory IX expressly states: Propter necessitatem, illicitum efficitur licitum - "Necessity makes licit what is illicit."
The necessity of having Catholic bishops and priests and the lack of true sacraments can easily be seen; therefore, we were validly and licitly consecrated.
Rule 88 of Boniface VIII also expressly states Certum est quod is committit in legem qui legem verbum complectens contra legis nititur - "It is certain that one sins against the rule who adheres to the letter and leaves aside the spirit." Therefore, it is unjust to impute to the legislator a desire to greatly harm the Church during a vacancy of the Holy See by forbidding the ordination of bishops and priests and the administering of the sacraments to the faithful who ask for them.
Therefore, in accepting episcopal consecration from Archbishop Thuc, we have relied on these rules, conscious and certain that, given the circuмstances in which we live, the consecrations are both valid and licit. We are also conscious and certain that we would have sinned, if by relying on the letter [of the law] we had rejected the consecrations, there being only one Catholic bishop who can now be found to transmit the episcopal succession.
The two witnesses to these consecrations were Dr. Kurt Hiller and Dr. Eberhard Heller have both testified under oath that His Excellency not only used the Traditional Rite, but that he was of sound mind and body for there were many who sought to slander Archbishop Thuc that he "wasn't in his right mind" that "Thuc was a kook" and other libelous accusations. A transcript of his own handwriting of the authenticity of these consecrations are provided at Transcript of Thuc Episcopal Consecration of Bishops Carmona and Zamora. Suffice it to say that Bishop des Laurier, Bishop Louis Vezelis, OFM, and several traditional priests have verified as well that the Archbishop was quite aware and any question as to insinuations that he was not in control of his mental faculties are unfounded or that he ever used the new rite of ordination or consecration. This author, from reading Thuc's words in his autobiography written in The Seraph in 1982 and 1983 while he was guest of Bishop Vezelis and the Franciscan Friars in Rochester, can attest to his lucidity. Those were, quite possibly, the best days of His Excellency's life since the time he left his beloved homeland and flock. At least in Rochester he was respected as a bishop and not as a hired hand or a lesser person because he was an oriental. The picture here shows from right to left Bishop Vezelis and Archbishop Thuc. It was supposedly taken by a "Bishop" Jacobus Maria DeJesus, CMF. DD and posted on the Shrine of Saint Jude site in a publication called "Catholic" (volume 7, Issue 8, August 1, 2002). We must point out here in fairness to Father Louis Campbell and the parishioners of the Traditional Shrine of St. Jude in Stafford, Texas that they have no association with this site of the same name. In fact, when this editor contacted Jacobus a year ago, no answers were forthcoming as to his consecration and he was totally mum on anything regarding himself. Since no docuмentation can be produced as to a valid consecration or even ordination, we have placed his title in quotes for there is no record whatsoever that Archbishop Thuc or any valid bishop consecrated him. We have since learned that his validation is questionable at best so we include this disclaimer. We have employed the photo merely to provide pictures of the other bishops in attendance and if anyone can identify the other four at the table, we would be most grateful.
It is important to note that many have come out of the woodwork "claiming" to have been consecrated by Archbishop Thuc or his successors, but unless they can show absolute proof as was provided for Bishops des Lauriers, Carmona and Zamora, be highly skeptical.
However, attesting to the validity of the Thuc consecrations in great detail has been one Bishop des Lauriers who wrote a magnificent eulogy which addressed all the problems and solutions with In Memoriam Monsigneur Peter Martin Ngo-dinh-Thuc. We linked the preceding questionable site because we could find it nowhere else and, in journalistic integrity, must provide the link, but, again, in no way endorse the site. We do however endorse the following links for we are indebted to Griff Ruby for his insight and research on Archbishop Thuc in his book The Resurrection of The Roman Catholic Church and to the CMRI for docuмents by Bishop Carmona and the Archbishop's statement.Bishop Daniel Dolan, consecrated by the Carmona-consecrated Bishop Mark Pivarunas provided an excellent thesis with his A Brief Defense, as well as Father Martin Stepanich's docuмentation at Thuc Issue No Longer Controversial and Father Anthony Cekada's extensive research on The Validity of the Thuc Consecrations as well as his many other articles at www.traditionalmass.org. In short there is enough evidence put forward to lay to rest, once and for all, any doubts as to the validity of Archbishop Thuc's consecrations and subsequent Episcopal Consecrations of those he consecrated in continuing the succession of the Apostles. Father Oswald Baker, enshrined last year in the Tower of Trent Hall of Honor, also believed strongly in Archbishop Thuc's dedication and necessity of continuing the apostolic line for the sake of souls, the sake of salvation. There are so many more things we could say but space does not permit. That is why we strongly recommend going to the linked sites if there are still any doubts as to the Archbishop's sincerity, holiness and validity. If one still doesn't believe, then one is not being honest with oneself for the evidence is clearly there. Those who are Thuc-line Bishops in being consecrated by Bishop Carmona and Bishop des Lauriers (for Bishop Zamora did not consecrate anyone) have carried on the Truths and Traditions of Holy Mother Church as Thuc had instructed as Catholic bishops had up until The Great Apostasy. Having personally observed the total Catholicity, sincerity and good will of several independent priests and especially the Congregation of Mary Immaculate Queen - CMRI, this editor can affirm the total Catholicity of these priests and their bishops, the true sacraments and, the fruitfulness of their work as the Gospel from this past Sunday confirms in our Lord's words, truly "By their fruits you shall know them" (St. Matthew 7: 15).
The Archbishop was so convinced of the fallacy of conciliarism that he made a public statement on February 25, 1982 where he declared:
How does the Catholic Church appear today as we look at it? In Rome, John Paul II reigns as “Pope,” surrounded by the body of Cardinals and of many bishops and prelates. Outside of Rome, the Catholic Church seems to
-
Heel.
-
Read it before you judge. Wouldn't you want the same for yourself?
-
Heel.
Please elaborate.
-
He may very well have been neither...
It is likely that he was just a man of good-will trying to navigate a terrible situation to the best of his limited ability, doing good AND making mistakes along the way...
-
You are probably right, Veritatis, especially in the early years after V II when everyone was confused and making mistakes. Thuc was a thorough Catholic and given the choice between obedience and rebellion, it's easy to see which way he would go. Obedience worked for all the saints down the centuries.
But for me, he is one of my heroes. He saw his family dessimated, his see stolen and he was kicked from pillar to post. On top of that he was villified. I could never maintain silence through all that as he did. For this I admire him, but I say it is a good thing God didn't give me that cross. I have far too big a mouth.
There is no proof that he was killed, so he may not have been a black martyr. But he was surely a white martyr.
-
I've done extensive reading on Thuc.
My personal opinion is that he hated Paul VI in particular and the Church in general so much for what they did to him and his family that he did what he did purposely to add further chaos and confusion.
I also think that he was quite traumatized by everything that happened. In short, he really wasn't playing with a full deck. Not that he was insane, but that his judgment and reason were severely clouded by the events in his life.
-
There is something of the holy fool about Abp. Thuc. The holy fool mixed with the inscrutable Asiatic --
http://charliechangallery.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/bwygallery20.jpg
He reminds me of Buster Keaton bumbling along, with everyone trying to stand in his way. He somehow gets through, but he makes a huge mess while he does it.
-
Alexandria said:
My personal opinion is that he hated Paul VI in particular and the Church in general so much for what they did to him and his family that he did what he did purposely to add further chaos and confusion.
That's a new one.
-
Abp. Thuc may have had one of the most exhausting lives in history. It is reminiscent of an Athanasius, even if he was not such a cut-and-dried hero.
Someone who is just martyred may have it easy in comparison. His life reminds me a bit of when it says in the Bible that the devil will wear out the saints of the most high. I don't care about his mistakes, there is still something of the saint about him. St. Vincent Ferrer made mistakes, not only following the wrong Pope, but apparently he used to go around preaching that Judas repented and he was under fire by the Inquisition.
Abp. Thuc had a Calvary like no other. Imagine going through all that in Vietnam, then dealing with the Vatican II crisis, and then where did he end up? With Bishop Vezelis! I have a little experience with that group, and, well... If you can't say anything nice... What a strange, strange life. He was in a world where absolutely no one could be trusted, neither the Vatican II types nor the traditionalists who seemed to be out for themselves ( some of them would not have been bishops in other circuмstances, let's face it ) and yet he made it through.
I have a feeling my life will be a lot like his, and that I'd better not judge him too harshly.
-
I'm just going to say that my biased opinion (being fully Vietnamese and traditional Roman Catholic) is that Archbishop Thuc was one of the greatest heroes that Viet Nam has ever brought forth.
-
Republished on: January 23, 2009
Father Stepanich on the Thuc Line Consecrations
by Father Martin Stepanich, O.F.M., S.T.D.
[Editor's foreword: There are occasions when questions come my way concerning the validity of the episcopal lineage of the late Archbishop Pierre Martin Ngo Dinh Thuc. I once labored under grave doubts concerning this lineage, relying in large measure upon calumnious reports, spread, I should add, by men who I now recognize to be invalidly ordained to the Catholic priesthood and who were quite quick and loose with their "facts"on occasion so as to justify their own novel ecclesiastical situations outside of the approved structures of the counterfeit church of conciliarism while "recognizing" the false "pontiff" as the Successor of Saint Peter. Indeed, my bias against the validity of the Thuc-line bishops was an obstacle to overcome as I researched the matter of sedevacantism, thanks to the words and deeds of Joseph Ratzinger/Benedict XVI, in late-2005 and early-2006.
[Although the definitive collection of articles in defense of the validity of the Thuc-line was published by Father Kevin Vaillancourt in The Answers, other works that preceded the publication of this book include Father Anthony Cekada's The Validity of the Thuc Consecrations and a letter written by Father Martin Stepanich, O.F.M., S.T.D., in 2003. The swill being served up by some anti-Thuc forces is designed to blow smoke in the face of Catholic truth in order to make it appear as though only one group of Catholic bishops and priests is valid. The attitude of Extra Societate Nulla Salus for which the Society of Saint Pius X has become known over the past three and one-half decades pervades some anti-Thuc organizations.
[It is also the case, most sadly, that some laymen who have had no formal classroom training in Principles of Canonical Interpretation or in Canon Law believe that their own "reading" of Canon Law equips them to make definitive pronouncements on matters that they have never studied in a formal classroom setting, thereby convincing many people to deprive themselves of the Sacraments. This is nothing other than diabolical.
[As I have stated many times on this site, Canon Law was not one of my own fields of study during my time in seminary. I rely upon the expertise of others who are versed in this field as a result of their formal preparation. Obviously, this involves a judgment on my part, far from infallible, concerning which trained expert to trust. Father Vaillancourt's The Answers contains essays written by priests who have been trained formally in Canon Law and who have studied the matter of the Thuc line in great depth. It is they, not the self-styled "lay experts," upon whom we must turn for guidance on this matter.
[To serve as an antidote to the propaganda of the anti-Thuc agitators, I would like to present the following article by Father Stepanich, who, much unlike the lay "experts," has an earned doctorate in Sacred Theology, while at the same time urging doubters to order and to read Father Vaillancourt's The Answers, which is available in downloadable form via the link above and in book form from Our Lady of Guadalupe Press, OLG PRESS. Also recommended as an antidote to the "home alone" propaganda that is making the rounds these days is Father Anthony Cekada's Home Alone?
[Please pass this article along to those you might know who have permitted themselves to be influenced by the anti-Thuc agitators mentioned in Father Stepanich's excellent analysis.]
THUC ISSUE NO LONGER CONTROVERSIAL
by Father Martin Stepanich
Dear Traditional Catholic (7-25-03)
It should be very revealing, as well as understandably quite shocking, for many traditional Catholics to realize that they have been deceived and misled regarding the true facts of the Thuc issue by certain highly-placed anti-Thuc agitators.
In your letter of July 7, you tell of your own experience and you express the conviction that none of the questioning of the legitimate status of Thuc-line bishops and priests would ever have happened if the whole dispute had not been created by anti-Thuc agitators among the clergy, who then spread their false story among their parishioners by way of their anti-Thuc writings and actions.
Appropriately enough, you conclude your comments by saying that the priests who stirred up all the controversy about the Thuc consecrations of bishops “really shot themselves in the foot.”
If any of the anti-Thuc bishops would realize how much they have discredited themselves by misinforming and misleading their unsuspecting followers!
There is no sound reason why the anti-Thuc controversy should continue. The Thuc issue ceased to be objectively controversial when all the facts became known and understood and then accepted by those of good will.
The first fact that we need to recognize and understand clearly in regard to the Thuc issue is the power of consecrating bishops, as well as of ordaining priests, which Archbishop Thuc possessed as a Catholic bishop, a power which he never lost, nor could lose, neither on account of signing the questionable Vatican II docuмents, nor for at first consecrating unworthy men as bishops. No bishop can lose his power of consecrating bishops for any kind of reason, such as, for example, losing the faith or joining the freemasons or other anti-Catholic subversives.
This should be no surprise for properly instructed traditional Catholics who learned probably already in their catechism days, that a man ordained as a Catholic priest becomes a priest forever. The pertinent Scriptural passage about the eternal priesthood that true Catholic should have no trouble remembering is the well-known; “Thou art a priest forever, according to the order of Melchisedech” (Psalm 109,5).
In dealing with the Catholic priesthood, we are dealing with something divinely established, not with something established by man. The everlasting power given to priests is given to them by God, not by man. The indelible mark, or character, of the priesthood, received at ordination, belongs to the Catholic priest by the will of God, not by the will of man, and it belongs to the priest forever. Just as the indelible mark received at Baptism belongs to the Baptized Catholic forever.
We are speaking here of matters clearly pertaining to the Catholic Faith and which cannot be doubted, nor questioned, nor denied without the risk of incurring the guilt of heresy.
When a priest becomes a bishop, he retains the indelible mark of the priesthood as well as the powers that go with the priesthood. But, as a bishop, he now has additional powers, the powers that go with the fullness of the priesthood. With these additional powers, he can no consecrate bishops and ordain priests, as well as confer the Sacrament of Confirmation.
Those traditional Catholics who have at their disposal some reliable traditional Catholic religion book, or maybe an advanced Catholic catechism, or even a reliable theology book, would do well to turn to the pages that deal with the sacrament of Holy orders and re-educate themselves as to the nature and powers of the Catholic priesthood.
Just to take one example of a good traditional advanced catechism, we can recommend Deharbe’s Catechism, first published in German long ago by Father Joseph Deharbe, S. J., and then translated into English early in the 20th Century.
The fortunate thing about the English edition of Deharbe’s Catechism is that it was reissued in 1998 by Omni-Christian Book Club of America (P/O/ Box 900566, Palmdale California 93590-0566 – Phone (661) 274-2240).
On page 303 of the 1998 edition of Deharbe’s Catechism, the question is asked: “Can a Priest be deprived of his ordination?” The correct answer given is this: “No, he can as little be deprived of Ordination as of Baptism, because it imprints an indelible character upon the soul.”
And then Father Deharbe continues: “A Priest therefore, or a Bishop, cannot be deprived of the powers which he received in his Ordination or Consecration, to change bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ, and to offer up the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, to administer Confirmation, Extreme Unction, and Holy Orders.”
Knowing the everlasting nature and power of the Priesthood, no genuine Catholic of good will could honestly persist in holding that Archbishop Thuc’s Consecrations of Bishops were doubtful, or even outright invalid. Because the power of the fullness of the Priesthood is everlasting, there can be no argument, no questioning, no controversy about the undoubted validity of the Thuc consecrations of Bishops.
You would think that the anti-Thuc militants saw that they had no other choice but to go silent and stop their anti-Thuc campaign. Yet, believe it or not, they did not stop trying to discredit Archbishop Thuc and the Thuc-line Bishops and Priests. Being the “geniuses” that they are, they had a dream. The dreamt that they could finish off the Archbishop by spreading around the made-up story that he was feeble-minded and therefore incapable of using his power of Consecrating Bishops validly.
But that didn’t work. Thinking Catholics could at once object that neither Bishop Guerard des Lauriers, nor Bishop Carmona, nor Bishop Zamora complained that Archbishop Thuc was feeble-minded when he consecrated them. They saw that the Archbishop what the Pontifical Ritual required as to matter and form and intention. When the Consecration ceremonies were completed, these three men knew that they were validly consecrated Catholic Bishops. So in due time they proceeded to do what Catholic Bishops are empowered to do. That is, they consecrated other Bishops, and it was from them that the American line of Thuc Bishops developed.
Where were the anti-Thuc dreamers when Archbishop Thuc was consecrating Bishops Guerard and Carmona and Zamora? They were in faraway anti-Thuc dreamland. That’s where they were.
While anti-Thuc agitators are unable honestly to deny the validity of the Thuc consecrations of Bishops, they imagine they have a legitimate argument against the Archbishop when they declare that his consecrations were unlawful, or illicit, since he had no papal mandate or permit to consecrate Bishops.
But the anti-Thucs made a big mistake, in regard to the supposed unlawfulness of the Thuc consecrations, in failing to stress the fact that Archbishop Thuc did not do his consecrations before the Vatican II disaster, when things were still in proper order at the Vatican and the Church in general. He, on the contrary, did the consecrations without a papal mandate after the Vatican II apostasy from the traditional Catholic faith and practice had set in and after disorder and confusion prevailed everywhere, having had its beginning at the very top of the Church hierarchy.
What the anti-Thuc need to realize is that when a human law, or decree, like the papal mandate for the consecration of Bishops, can no longer be enforced and the one who would normally issue the papal mandate has himself deserted the True Faith, the Divine Law nevertheless still remains in force and always will remain in force.
The Divine Law about which we are speaking is the law that demands that the work of saving souls must by all means continue, despite the Vatican II apostasy. For that, Bishops and Priests are needed to make available the means of grace for the faithful. That is the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and the Sacraments, which are the principal means of grace, must be made available to the faithful, while at the same time the True Catholic Faith must by all means be taught whole and entire, and kept alive among the faithful.
As the anti-Thucs can plainly see, it was because of the Vatican II apostasy from the True Catholic Faith that Archbishop Thuc saw that he could not go by the human law demanding a papal mandate for consecrating Bishops. But he could, and he did, obey the Divine Law demanding the continued work of saving souls. He was fully justified before God in obeying His Law, and he had he necessary jurisdiction to do so by virtue of Divine Law.
Traditional Bishops and Priests who have proceeded from Archbishop Thuc are likewise fully justified before God in preserving the True Faith among traditional Catholics, and providing for them the necessary means of grace. The traditional “emergency jurisdiction” long granted by the Church in cases of urgent need is based upon the Divine Law that demands that the necessary care of souls continue.
A much-needed article, dealing with the issue of traditional priests conferring the Sacraments legitimately in these confused times, has recently been issued by Father Anthony Cekada ( The Validity of the Thuc Consecrations). In the article, Father Cekada puts forth his main theme in these words: “Divine Law obliges rather than forbids us to confer Sacraments.” Traditional Catholics would do well to obtain a copy of the article from father Cekada, and then read it carefully and accept Father’s unquestionable conclusions.
For all anti-Thuc agitators who have kept stirring up the storm of controversy over the Thuc consecrations, and against the Thuc Bishops and Priests, the message has long been loud and clear: “Peace! Be still!”
Pax et Bonum!
Father Martin Stepanich, O.F.M., S.T.D.
Viva Cristo Rey!
Our Lady of the Rosary, us.
Saint Joseph, pray for us.
Saints Peter and Paul, pray for us.
Saint John the Baptist, pray for us.
Saint John the Evangelist, pray for us.
Saint Michael the Archangel, pray for us.
Saint Gabriel the Archangel, pray for us.
Saint Raphael the Archangel, pray for us.
Saints Joachim and Anne, pray for us.
Saints Caspar, Melchior, and Balthasar, pray for us.
The Holy Machabees, pray for us.
Saint Timothy, pray for us.
See also: A Litany of Saints
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
© Copyright 2009, Thomas A. Droleskey. All rights reserved.
-
Vladimir, his siblings weren't slouches either. They were such a very Catholic family.
You can know a man by his enemies as well as his friends. It speaks volumes to me that they went to such lengths to get rid of him.
-
Declaration of Archbishop Ngo-Dinh-Thuc
How does the Catholic Church appear today as we look at it? In Rome, John Paul II reigns as “Pope,” surrounded by the body of Cardinals and of many bishops and prelates. Outside of Rome, the Catholic Church seems to be flourishing, along with its bishops and priests. The number of Catholics is great. Daily the Mass is celebrated in so many churches, and on Sundays the churches are full of many faithful who come to hear the Mass and receive Holy Communion.
But in the sight of God, how does today’s Church appear? Are the Masses — both the daily ones and those at which people assist on Sundays — pleasing to God? By no means, because that Mass is the same for Catholics as it is for Protestants — therefore it is displeasing to God and invalid. The only Mass that pleases God is the Mass of St. Pius V, which is offered by few priests and bishops, among whom I count myself.
Therefore, to the extent that I can, I will open seminaries for educating candidates for that priesthood which is pleasing to God.
Besides this “Mass,” which does not please God, there are many other things that God rejects: for example, changes in the ordination of priests, the consecration of bishops, and in the sacraments of Confirmation and of Extreme Unction.
Moreover, the “priests” now hold to:
1) modernism;
2) false ecuмenism
3) the adoration [or cult] of man;
4) the freedom to embrace any religion whatsoever;
5) the unwillingness to condemn heresies and to expel the heretics.
Therefore, in so far as I am a bishop of the Roman Catholic Church, I judge that the Chair of the Roman Catholic Church is vacant; and it behooves me, as bishop, to do all that is needed so that the Roman Catholic Church will endure in its mission for the salvation of souls.
February 25, 1982
Munich
+Peter Martin Ngo-dinh-Thuc
Archbishop
-
I've done extensive reading on Thuc.
My personal opinion is that he hated Paul VI in particular and the Church in general so much for what they did to him and his family that he did what he did purposely to add further chaos and confusion.
I also think that he was quite traumatized by everything that happened. In short, he really wasn't playing with a full deck. Not that he was insane, but that his judgment and reason were severely clouded by the events in his life.
Probably was pissed off at Kennedy and Co., they helped engineer the coup against his family.....though the USA has no problems before or since supporting corrupt regime's.....
-
You are probably right, Veritatis, especially in the early years after V II when everyone was confused and making mistakes. Thuc was a thorough Catholic and given the choice between obedience and rebellion, it's easy to see which way he would go. Obedience worked for all the saints down the centuries.
But for me, he is one of my heroes. He saw his family dessimated, his see stolen and he was kicked from pillar to post. On top of that he was villified. I could never maintain silence through all that as he did. For this I admire him, but I say it is a good thing God didn't give me that cross. I have far too big a mouth.
There is no proof that he was killed, so he may not have been a black martyr. But he was surely a white martyr.
what of the allegations he celebrated the NO, with P6? false? true?
-
Alexandria said:
My personal opinion is that he hated Paul VI in particular and the Church in general so much for what they did to him and his family that he did what he did purposely to add further chaos and confusion.
That's a new one.
Yes, I know. I am surprised that no one has considered this.
-
I'm just going to say that my biased opinion (being fully Vietnamese and traditional Roman Catholic) is that Archbishop Thuc was one of the greatest heroes that Viet Nam has ever brought forth.
I don't think anyone would ever deny that, Vlad.
Tell me, what is the "scoop" about him there? What do your people say about him and what he did? The Vietnamese, of all people, would know the truth.
-
I've done extensive reading on Thuc.
My personal opinion is that he hated Paul VI in particular and the Church in general so much for what they did to him and his family that he did what he did purposely to add further chaos and confusion.
I also think that he was quite traumatized by everything that happened. In short, he really wasn't playing with a full deck. Not that he was insane, but that his judgment and reason were severely clouded by the events in his life.
Probably was pissed off at Kennedy and Co., they helped engineer the coup against his family.....though the USA has no problems before or since supporting corrupt regime's.....
That is correct. Have you ever read Warren Carroll's Seventy Years of the Communist Revolution? I think it's the hardest book I ever had to plow through. It's very hard to get and, when you do find a copy, it is quite expensive. Anyway, he goes into that in the book. The wonderful USA did a real dirty deal. I often wonder how these men can even look at themselves in the mirror without hating everything they are.
-
Things may not have been as clear sailing for Bishop Thuc as people seem to think. Check this out:
http://catholic.shrineofsaintjude.net/homec081.html
-
Corona Spinarum
A Biography and defense of Archbishop Pierre-Martin Ngo-Dinh-Thuc
Introduction
Pierre-Martin Ngo-Dinh-Thuc is an object of great polemic within the Catholic Traditional movement. By some he is ridiculed as a doddering old prelate consecrating anything that moved a bishop. For others, he is an unqualified saint without blemish. As St Thomas wisely observes, virtue stands in the middle, and the facts concerning the life of this Archbishop are no exception.
It is difficult to peel back the layers of vitriolic diatribe that have silted up these past two decades to reveal the true Archbishop. What we find, is a fallen, broken and rejected man, a man whose life began in glory and faded out in ignominy.
This was a man acquainted with opprobrium – the figure of the dumb lamb is played out here.
In a world turned upside down, and finding himself upon the streets, one lonely man is sought out for the only thing he has left – the power of ordination – the episcopacy. Thieves and scoundrels of all kinds, and, as the adage goes – a few good men and true come to visit him.
In the imagination of his mind’s eye, he sees the church rebuilt, a seminary, a world restored – he is important again !
What countless lines have been written about this man, a man forgotten in his day but no longer so as the years pass. Through him, and in a sense despite himself, the Church continues through his hands. Through whatever good he has done, may his errors be reduced.
In imitation of his master, even in this life, he learned the message of the Savior who declared that his were they who carried a Cross.
As he passed from us, he left as he had lived with a crown of thorns.
Chapter One - From the Cradle to the Council
Archbishop Peter-Martin Ngo Dinh Thuc was born at Hue, on October 6, 1897, of profoundly Catholic parents. His father had wished to be a priest, and had undertaken studies with this end in view.
His mother, born of a petite bourgeoisie family in Quang-ngai (south Vietnam) was considered to be a saint by her confessor. During a very prolonged illness from which she died, she inspired the adoration of all who knew her.
His father, Ngo Dinh Kha, was an excellent Latinist and worked very hard to introduce French into Central Vietnam. After having been the preceptor to the young king Thant Thai, and then Minister of the Imperial Household, he fell into disgrace because he refused to vote against his sovereign.
As a young man Thuc had entered the junior seminary in Anninh at the age of 12. He spent 8 years there before going on to study philosophy at the major seminary in Hue. After his ordination, December 20, 1925, he taught at the Sorbonne in Paris. He was then selected to study theology in Rome and returned to his country in 1927 after being awarded three doctorates, one in philosophy, one in theology, and the third in canon law from the Gregorian.
His bishop successively nominated him to the rank of professor at the College of Vietnamese Brothers in Hue, a professor at the Major Seminary in Hue, and Dean of the College of Providence.
In 1938, at the age of 41, he was chosen by Rome to direct the Apostolic Vicariate at Vinhlong. He was appointed as the titular bishop of Sesina on January 8, and was consecrated on May 4, 1938 by Mgr Dumortier, Apostolic Vicar of Saigon. He took as his episcopal symbol "Miles Christi -Soldier of Christ." He was the third Vietnamese priest raised to the Episcopate. A pastor to his flock
The new pastor immediately dedicated himself to the organization of his Vicariate.
Given the reverses that Christianity was sustaining in this part of the world, Pope Pius XI, understood the urgency of opening a Catholic university in South Vietnam for the formation of Christians of the former French protectorate. The Sacred Congregation for the Propagation of the Faith informed the local bishops of the Pontiff's heart-felt desire and further informed them that the Holy Father wished that one of the official languages of this University should be French in order that the ancient proteges of France, the Vietnamese, Cambodians and Laotians could all go there for their formation. The local bishops designated Bishop Martin Ngo Dinh Thuc as the person who could best accomplish the wishes of the Holy Father.
Where could the necessary funds for such an enterprise be found in a country engaged in a subversive war? Apart from the blessing of the Pope and the bishop of Vinhlong, all he had was a good will. This is hardly enough to establish a University, even in a mission country. Without being discouraged, the good bishop set to work. Thanks to the support he was able to count on, he was granted by the government of Diem, the authority to exploit an ancient forest. Thus, it was by his own industry, his efforts and his tenacity, that Bishop Ngo rapidly accuмulated all the necessary funds to bring the task he had undertaken to completion, thus fulfilling the desire of the Pope and providing his country with a Catholic university. One last detail worthy of being underlined: by means of his industry, disinterest and foresight he provided this university with sufficient income to guarantee its ability to persist as an independent enterprise.
On November 24, 1960, John XXIII, who succeeded Pius XII, transferred the Apostolic Vicarage of Vinhlong to the head of the Metropolitan See at Hue, the city where Bishop Ngo was born. He was named Archbishop of Hue and Assistant to the Pontifical Throne.
Casualties of the Vietnamese Communist Takeover November 1 1963
Thuc's elder brother, Ngo Dinh Khoi, was an excellent Christian. Because of his refusal to become a minister in the first communist government, he, along with his son, was buried alive.
The three other children of Ngo Dinh Kha are Diem, the father of the Vietnamese Republic, Nhu and Can, his close collaborators. They were αssαssιnαtҽd. After having received Holy Communion on All Soul's Day, 1963, Diem, who in 1955 had become president of South Vietnam, was αssαssιnαtҽd with his brother Nhu as they left St. Francis Xavier Church in Saigon. These men both knew that the Communion that they had just received was to be their last, and thus they did not hesitate in meeting what they knew to be their certain fate.
Ngo Dinh Can was not with his older brothers at the time they were murdered. He was successful in hiding himself in a shelter provided by the Redemptorist Fathers in Hue. He was betrayed and delivered into the hands of rebellious generals. Before executing him, the communists imprisoned him in a cage for over a year. He was, despite this, able to receive holy communion every day, thanks to the devotion of a Vietnamese Redemptorist Father. He died very courageously with the rosary in his hand.
Of all the children of Ngo Dinh Kha, only two were able to escape annihilation, Ngo Dinh Luyen and Ngo Dinh Thuc. The first who had graduated from the Central School for Engineers in Paris was at the time ambassador in London. Thuc narrowly escaped the same fate. A few days prior to the assassinations in Saigon Thuc had been ordered to Rome to attend the Second Vatican Council. He had hesitated in attending the sessions of the Council earlier because he knew that once he left his country he would most likely never return. Such was the case.
After the Council, Archbishop Thuc found himself unable to return to his duties in his diocese. For him a life of exile now began. He later wrote of this in his autobiography (Misericordias Domini) in the following words: "Here began my Via Crucis - in which the Good God indicated to me the turning point of my life"
The Nature of Archbishop Thuc's Powers
An important issue needs to be raised here. It is often objected that the "Thuc" consecrations are illicit (i.e. contrary to the law of the Church). This is because, if any bishop consecrates another bishop without papal permission, they receive an excommunication reserved to the Holy See. In Archbishop Thuc's case, this is not so. Pius XI had conceded special powers to Thuc to perform consecrations without referring to Rome for approval (powers we should point out which were never revoked). In 1987 the traditionalist publication "Sous la Bannière" published the text of this "Motu Proprio":
Translation of the Latin Original (right:)
By virtue of the Plenitude of the powers of the Holy Apostolic See, we appoint as our Legate Pierre Martin Ngo Dinh Thuc, titu lar bishop of Saigon, whom we invest with all the necessary pow ers, for purposes known to us. Given at Rome at Saint Peter's, on 15 March 1938, the seventeenth year of our pontificate. Pope Pius XI,
Explanation of these powers
What does this docuмent mean ? Let us examine a parallel case in which Pius XI conceded identical pwoers to another prelate. On 10 March 1920, the same pope Pius XI dictated the same motu proprio for Mgr d'Herbigny (S.J.). The account is recorded in the book of Father Paul Lesourd, published by Lethielleux Editions under the title "Le Jesuite clandestine"
Here is the translation: Motu Proprio By virtue of the plenitude of the Apostolic power, we appoint as our Delegate Michel d'Herbigngy (S.J.), titular bishop of Troie, whom we invest with all the appropriate and necessary powers, for purposes known to us. Given at Rome at Saint Peter's, on 10 March 1926, the fifth year of our pontificate. Pius XI, Pope
The two cases are analogous. With this Act of the Holy See, the two bishops received pontifical powers, those of Patriarchs. The details of these powers are explained by Pius XI himself, as reported by Father Lesourd in the following terms: "Orally, the Holy Father first enumerated in detail all the powers which he conferred, including the selection of priests to be or dained and to confer on them the epicopate without the need for them to have pontifical bulls, nor therefore to give their signa tures inviting them to act accordingly on the strength of the oath.
"Then, after having at length set out in detail by word of mouth all the powers which were really extraordinary, the Pope resumed them most solemnly as follows:
"In one word, we grant to you all the pontifical powers of the Pope himself, which are not of incommunicable divine right."
Chapter Two - The Wilderness Years
After the Council had finished, like bishops from every country, those from South Vietnam returned to their own dioceses. However the Archbishop of Hue was unable to obtain permission to return to his See. In his Autobiography Archbishop Ngo informs us that "The Americans forced the Government of South Vietnam to refuse me permission to return."
He then approached Paul VI, thinking that he would in this way obtain the necessary authorization. Did Montini intervene? Once again, the Archbishop tells us in his autobiography that on February 17, 1968: "Paul VI used my inability to return to my See to force me to resign and to name as my replacement one of his favorites, Bishop Dien." From that time forward he led an uprooted life.
The Archbishop was not the kind of person who could remain idle, and before concerning himself with his own needs, this man who spoke fluent Italian looked in Italy for some ministry. He wished to be useful and to support himself in a decent manner. But he who no longer belonged to any diocese was also a stranger in the House of his Mother.
Thanks to a prelate who had been apostolic delegate in Vietnam, Archbishop Ngo was able to find food and lodging in a reception center in Rome, but he had to pay a fee for this. In order to obtain the funds to do this, he offered his services to a cure in the parish. This priest was only too happy to accept his offer ... and to exploit him.
Despite his priestly efforts he was unable to earn enough to pay his bill at the Reception Center. Archbishop Ngo asked the cure to provide him with an empty room at the vicarage, but the cure refused. He was jealous of the Bishop who because of his kindness and availability ended up seeing his confessional besieged by all the penitents that formerly went to the cure. Despite everything he did, he could not help but antagonize the head of the parish who became increasingly unpleasant, and thisto such a degree that the Archbishop finally had to leave.
As he had previously known Dom Nivardo Buttarazzi, the Reverend Abbot of the Monastery of Casamari in the center of Italy, the ancient Archbishop went and knocked at his door. He was received as a brother and given a room in the guest house. For about one and a half years the Archbishop stayed there contentedly. He made himself useful by confessing the faithful of the parish which was dependent on the Abbey and the monks who came to him. Unfortunately, one day, these religious decided to organize an exhibition of nudes in the library of the Monastery. The Bishop showed his disapproval with the greatest of discretion. But this was more than they could accept and they asked him to leave the place as soon as he could make other arrangements.
Where could he go? The local bishop who had made his sympathies known to the Archbishop on several occasions, asked him to preside over certain ceremonies and to share his meals. The Archbishop then went to the bishop's house. He begged his confrere to give him a small church that had no priest where he could serve, provided that it had a sacristy where he could place a bed and stay.
The Bishop was agreeable and appointed him to the village of Arpino which consisted of a dozen families. The titular priest was happy to accept the assistance which Providence had provided him through the bishop. "I was happy to stay there with the small flock over which I was the secondary shepherd,"he tells us in his biography, and I thought that Arpino would be my last resting place in this world."
Chapter Three - The "Palmarian" Affair
Palmar de Troya a place not far from Seville in Spain was the site of supposed "apparitions" of the Virgin in the late 1960s and the 1970s. The "messages", were particularly anti-modernist in nature, and warned the faithful against the New Mass and the Conciliar reforms. The visionary and founder of the sect, one Clemente Dominguez Gomez staged mock ecstasies and received the "stigmata" of Our Lord (photographs of the liberal application of ketchup to his torso exist).
The Lefebvre Connection
It was thanks to the intervention of another luminary of the Traditional movement, Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, that the whole debacle began. Fr Noel Barbara, relates he heard this from Lefebvre's own lips at table one day at the seminary in Econe.
"Archbishop Lefebvre knew Archbishop Ngo Dinh Thuc quite well from the Second Vatican Council. He considered him to be a bishop with good doctrinal views. Like himself, this bishop belonged to the conservative group. It was because he considered him to be a Catholic bishop, committed to the faith, devoted to Mary, and having nothing to do, that he encouraged him to work with the emissaries of Palmar de Troya who had come to Econe in order to solicit his episcopal services. I heard these facts directly from Archbishop Lefebvre.
"One day a canon of Saint Maurice named Father Revaz arrived at the seminary in Econe. He was accompanied by a priest who spoke English. A lover of the extraordinary, both had come from the location of the Apparitions. They came straight from Palmar to beg Archbishop Lefebvre to come to this location immediately because the Blessed Virgin was waiting for him. She was insisting that a Catholic bishop come in order to confer the episcopacy on those she planned to designate.
The Archbishop excused himself and advised them to "approach Archbishop Thuc. He is orthodox and he is not at present occupied. Go and seek him out. He will most certainly agree with your request." The two messengers immediately left and had no difficulty in convincing the elderly Vietnamese Archbishop to respond to the Virgin's request."
Indeed Fr Cekada recalls the events as follows in his article the "Validity of the Thuc Consecrations": "His (Thuc's) interest in the traditional movement appears to have begun in early 1975 when he visited Abp. Lefebvre's seminary in Econe, Switzerland. The event would turn out to be a mixed blessing. There Abp. Thuc struck up an acquaintance with Father M. Revaz, former Chancellor of the Swiss Diocese of Sion and professor of Canon Law at the Econe seminary. Later in 1975, Father Revaz convinced Abp. Thuc that the solution to the Church's problems were to be found in alleged "Marian apparitions" at Palmar de Troya, Spain, and he urged the Archbishop to consecrate bishops for the Palmar supporters, who wished to preserve the traditional Mass. Abp. Thuc agreed and performed the consecrations in December. The next year, however, Abp. Thuc repudiated his connections with the Palmar group."
Archbishop Thuc also refers to the episode in his autobiography:
"At that time a priest came to me who I had formerly known in Econe, Switzerland. He said to me point-blank: "Your Excellency, the Holy Virgin has sent me to bring you at once to Spain in order to render her a service. My car is waiting for you at the door of the presbytery and we will leave immediately so as to reach there by Christmas." Thrilled by this invitation, I said to him: "If it is a service demanded by the Holy Virgin, I am ready to follow you to the end of the world."
On January 11 1976 the Archbishop elevated Gomez and four others to the episcopacy after having first ordained them priest several weeks earlier
Having been immediately "excommunicated" by Paul VI for his actions, Archbishop Thuc promptly broke with Palmar. Clemente and Co. proceeded to perform mass ordinations and consecrations setting up a parallel church.
Upon the death of Paul VI, (whom they consider to have been a saint) Gomez claimed to have been mystically crowned “Pope” in a jail only hours after the death news reached him. Upon his return to Spain, the mystical crowning became “reality”.
Chapter Four - In Perils of false brethren
After the Palmar fiasco, Archbishop Thuc moved to Toulon in southern France where he lived in extreme poverty. Fr Barbara who visited him twice there in the early 1980s describes the scene
“I personally never knew the Vietnamese Archbishop before the time of my two visits to his residence at 22 rue Garibaldi, Toulon, in the district of Var, in France.
The first time was in March of 1981 when I went to ask him about a Father Garcia who wished to work with me and claimed to have been ordained by Archbishop Ngo.
The second time was on January 7, 1982, at which time I was ac companied by Father Barthe, an elderly priest connected with the association "Union pour la Fidelity." We had asked for a meeting because a Mexican priest friend had come and told us about the episcopal consecration of R. P. Guerard des Lauriers and Fathers Carmona and Zamora. We were desirous of having some infor mation about their consecrations.
We arranged a meeting by telephone for Monday, the 5th. of January. Arriving at Toulon, we presented ourselves at his home at 8 o'clock in the morning. "The Archbishop lived in a very poor and dirty apartment on the first floor of an old tenement building. In appearance, it was a simple flat that was longer than wide, with a small side kitchen. On the right was a modest bed. In the corner was a table on which he celebrated the traditional rite as codified by Saint Pius V every morning. There were many pious images, a pile of "pocket books," two chairs and five cats that appeared to be eve rywhere. As he only had two chairs, the Archbishop sat on his bed and Father Barbara sat opposite him. The room was so small that Father Barthe had to place his chair behind the Archbishop.
"Archbishop Thuc informed us that he celebrated Mass in his apartment early every morning, and always in the traditional rite
During the period from 1977 – 1981 Archbishop Thuc is alleged to have consecrated various individuals of dubious character. Most seem to have been false, and certainly the modern church in declaring his excommunication a second time in 1982, is content with treating of only those consecrations of Catholic priests ordained within the Roman Church before the Council.
In 1977, he re-consecrated sub conditione, in secret, Jean Laborie of Toulouse. An Old Catholic and the recipient of multiple consecrations beforehand. He also ordained a certain Garcia of Marseilles although Thuc refused to consecrate him as Fr Barbara relates:
"Archbishop Thuc informed us that he regretted having done so, because he had come to know that the Father in question was mentally unbalanced. "He wished me to consecrate him a bishop. I refused. But," he added, "why does everyone wish to be a bishop?"
Several years later he entered into contact with a Traditionalist group in Munich which introduced him to Fr Guérard des Lauriers, O. P.
Archbishop Thuc was personally convinced of the vacancy of the Apostolic See. It was precisely upon this condition that Fr Guérard accepted episcopal consecration on May 7 1981. On October 17, 1981, he consecrated two Mexican traditional priests: Bishop Carmona who was parish priest of Acapulco and Bishop Zamora.
Fr Barbara testifies to the veracity of these claims from his interview which we have been citing: "Father then explained to him the reason for our visit. A Mexican friend, Father Marquette, had informed us that he had consecrated the cure of Acapulco, Father Moses Carmona, and another Mexican, Father Zamora. The Archbishop admitted that such was the case. I didn't know them. There were two Germans, Heller and Hiller, who brought them to me and asked that I consecrate them. I had confidence in these two gentlemen because I knew Mr. Heller. He is a very fine person. I knew him because he asked me to confirm his little daughter and I had confirmed her. These Germans are very generous. The two Mexican priests were consecrated here. I was able to speak with them in Latin. Father Carmona spoke much better Latin than did Father Zamora. The two Germans assisted. They had brought along everything that was necessary for the consecration. During the ceremony, they held the candles.
"Father Barbara then explained that we had also learned from Mexico that he had consecrated Father R. P. Guerard des Lauriers, O.P. - "The Dominican?" - "Yes" - "It is true. I did indeed consecrate him. He is very knowledge able." He then went on to explain that it was Father des Lauriers who had himself come and asked to be consecrated. The Germans supported his request.
HIS COMPROMISE WITH THE VARIOUS SECTS
This piece of testimony from Fr Barbara is of the greatest importance:
"Evaluation. Archbishop Ngo Din Thuc appeared to us as a poor, simple, but good person. He did not seem to have understood the crisis the Church had faced subsequent to Vatican II. Also, per haps he was unwilling to see that some individuals were imposing on his goodness. Beyond this, he gave us the impression that matters of licitness were not very important for him."
It shows two things: firstly, Archbishop Thuc was quite clearly in possession of his faculties, simplicity must not be mistaken for insanity as we shall see later in appendix 1. Secondly, his answer to the crisis of Vatican II – was in character – overly simplistic. He evidently saw the problem as being hierarchical in nature – the hierarchy had defaulted in their duty – he by consecrating bishops would assure the Apostolic Succession in the Church. This says volumes of his ability to distinguish between good and bad candidates for the episcopacy. Clearly the Archbishop is guilty of error – in judgement not in intention.
THE INDIVIDUALS CONSECRATED
Even when valid, an Episcopal Consecration does not have the power to reconcile anyone with the Church who knowingly had separated himself from it. We should not forget that the absence of Authority hinders the reconciliation of repentant heretics and schismatics IN THE EXTERNAL FORUM. Therefore, when it comes to bishops consecrated by Archbishop Ngo Dinh Thuc, or those consecrated by bishops whom he consecrated, it is necessary to DISTINGUISH IN AN ABSOLUTE MANNER BETWEEN:
1 - Catholic priests that have asked for the Episcopacy or have been willing to be consecrated in order to serve the Church and to preserve the Catholic priesthood which is the source of the sacramental life.
Those who were Catholic priests before their consecration have become Catholic bishops after their consecration to the same degree as have those bishops consecrated by Archbishop Lefebvre.
2 - The others. All those who have profited from the crisis of the Church and from the good will of the elderly Archbishop to obtain valid Sacerdotal or Episcopal Consecration,
Subsequent to the affair of Palmar de Troya, the only Catholic priests that were consecrated by Archbishop Ngo Dinh Thuc were Father Guerard des Lauriers, O.P and Fathers Carmona and Adolfo Zamora. Unfortunately the three have passed away, but they have passed on the Episcopate to:
- BISHOP GUERARD DES LAURIERS to Fathers Gunther Storck (now deceased), and Robert McKenna, O.P.
- BISHOP MOISES CARMONA to Fathers George Musey (now deceased), Benigno Bravo (now deceased), Roberto Martinez and Mark Pivarunas.
Chapter Five - The Munich Declaration
Before asking Archbishop Ngo Dinh Thuc for consecration, Father R. P. Guerard des Lauriers explained the "Thesis of Cassiciacuм" to him. It was only after the Archbishop gave him the assurance that he also held to such a position was the consecration of the Dominican Father decided on.
Nor was Archbishop Ngo Dinh Thuc only willing to declare this vacancy of the Holy See privately. As much as he could he made his position clear in the public forum.
The official letter of excommunication (second time) (Prot. N. 7/76) from Rome dated February 1, 1983 and addressed to His Excellency Archbishop Pierre-Martin Ngo Dinh Thuc, the titular Archbishop of Bulla Regia, from “Cardinal” Joseph Ratzinger, the Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, it is explicitly mentioned that: "A public declaration published in Munich on February 25, 1982 under your own signature affirms that according to you, `THE SEE OF THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH IS AT THIS TIME VACANT,' and that it is necessary for you `AS A BISHOP TO DO EVERYTHING YOU CAN IN ORDER THAT THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH CAN CONTINUE TO GUIDE SOULS TO THEIR ETERNAL SALVATION'." (Review "Einsicht," March 1982, page 8).
This Declaration is of the greatest possible importance with regard to what we are discussing. It manifests the primary condition which would allow Archbishop Thuc to presume an Apostolic Mandate, a condition without which he could not use the principal of Epikeia. The consecrations performed under such circuмstances are not only perfectly valid, but also perfectly licit.
DECLARATION
WHAT DOES TODAY'S CATHOLIC CHURCH LOOK LIKE ? AT ROME "POPE" JOHN PAUL II REIGNS SURROUNDED BY CARDINALS AND MANY BISHOPS AND PRELATES, OUTSIDE ROME THE CATHOLIC CHURCH LOOKS FLOURISHING WITH HER BISHOPS AND PRIESTS. THE NUMBER OF CATHOLICS IS IMMENSE, EVERY DAY MASS IS CELEBRATED IN SO MANY CHURCHES. SUNDAYS THE CHURCHES RECEIVE MANY FAITHFUL FOR HEARING MASS AND RECEIVING HOLY COMMUNION.
BUT IN THE SIGHT OF OUR LORD, WHAT DOES TODAY'S CHURCH LOOK LIKE? THESE WEEKDAY AND SUNDAY MASSES - DO THEY PLEASE OUR LORD? NOT AT ALL BECAUSE THIS MASS IS THE SAME ONE FOR CATHOLICS AND PROTESTANTS - THAT IS WHY THIS MASS DOES NOT PLEASE OUR LORD AND IS INVALID. THE ONLY MASS THAT PLEASES OUR LORD IS THE MASS OF SAINT PIUS V, WHICH IS CELEBRATED BY ONLY A FEW PRIESTS AND BISHOPS. I MYSELF BELONG TO THEM.
THAT IS WHY I WANT - IF POSSIBLE - TO OPEN A SEMINARY FOR CANDIDATES FOR THE PRIESTHOOD, WHICH PLEASES OUR LORD.
BESIDES THIS 'MASS', WHICH DOES NOT PLEASE OUR LORD ARE MANY THINGS, WHICH ARE REJECTED BY GOD, FOR EXAMPLE THE NEW RITES OF ORDINATION OF PRIESTS, CONSECRATION OF BISHOPS, CONFIRMATION AND EXTREME UNCTION.
MOREOVER THESE "PRIESTS' APPLY THEMSELVES TO: 1) MODERNISM, 2) FALSE EcuмENISM, 3) WORSHIP OF MEN, 4) LIBERTY OF RELIGION; 5) THEY REFUSE TO CONDEMN THE AUTHORS OF HERESIES AND TO EXPEL THE HERETICS.
AS A BISHOP OF THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH I JUDGE THE SEE OF ROME TO BE VACANT AND IT IS MY DUTY, TO DO EVERYTHING TO ASSURE THE PRESERVATION OF THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH FOR THE ETERNAL SALVATION OF SOULS.
MUNICH, 25TH FEBRUARY 1982
Chapter Six - Raising the Fallen Standard
His closing years
After the events in Munich, Archbishop Thuc returned to France where he consecrated Bishop Datessen on September 25, 1982 and then a short while afterwards he departed for the United States at the invitation of Bishop Louis Vezelis in whose monastery he took up residence.
At this point the story becomes confusing. It is alleged (by the Vezelis group in particular) that the Archbishop was abducted by a Vatican II Vietnamese group while in New York and was taken to Missouri and hidden away from the contact of his friends. There he was subsequently held incommunicado by Vatican II priests. (There are even tales of FBI investigations as well).
Like his Divine Master in all things, Archbishop Thuc died in exile and under uncertain circuмstances while here in the United States. After being kidnapped Worn out with fatigue and the harassment of his Modernist captors, Archbishop Ngo Dinh Thuc died December 13, 1984
The Vatican II establishment church waited until after the Archbishop's death to announce that he had "recanted" his errors, repented of his actions, and called upon those he had consecrated to return to the "unity of the Church."
Fortunately, however, amongst the myriad of pretenders to the episcopacy, two of his progeny survived him and continued the work of entrusting the Apostolic Succession to men of worth.
1983 Declaration of Archbishop Thuc made together with Bishop Carmona
The following was issued jointly with the Mexican bishops (he had consecrated) on May 26, 1983:
"The Roman Catholic Bishops, united with His Excellency Archbishop Ngo Dinh Thuc, declare: That we support him in his valiant public declaration made regarding the vacancy of the Apostolic See and the invalidity and illicitness of the New Mass. We hold with him that the Apostolic See has been vacant since the death of Pope Pius XII by virtue of the fact that those who were elected to succeed him did not possess the canonical qualifications necessary to be legitimate candidates for the Papacy.
"...Based upon the Bull cuм Ex Apostolatus Officio of His Holiness Pope Paul IV, we hold that Angelo Roncalli was never a legitimate Pope and that his acts are completely null and void,
"We declare that the New 'Mass' is invalid.... We declare that the introduction of this New 'Mass' also signals the promulgation of a new humanistic religion in which Almighty God is no longer worshipped as He desires to be worshipped... Those who have accepted this New 'Mass' have, in reality and without taking notice of it, apostatized from the true Faith; they have separated themselves from the true Church and are in danger of losing their souls, because outside the Church founded by Jesus Christ no one can be saved. For this reason, we invite the faithful to return to their Faith from which they have strayed.
"We reject the heretical Decree on Religious Freedom which places the divinely revealed religion on an equality with false religions. This decree is a clear and evident sign of the denial of our holy traditions by the apostate and schismatic hierarchy.
"We declare that no one can oblige us to separate ourselves from the true Church, from that Church instituted by Christ Himself and which is destined to last until the consummation of the world just as He instituted it.... We give thanks to God for the integrity of our Faith and we beseech His grace that we may be able to persevere in it. We pray for those who have lost this Faith by accepting the heretical changes that have given rise to a new Church and to a new religion."
-
I couldn't bring the above article here because it was copyrighted. I couldn't understand it well, except that he said Bishop Thuc was caught on the horns of a dillema (sp). Caught between misereor super Sacrificium and mesereor super turbam.
I can understand this because I found myself caught on just such horns. For ten years I vacillated. I would bump into an atrocity and leave the church. Then I would think they had the sacraments and Jesus held captive, so I had to go back. Only to run into another atrocity and leave again. In this way I agonized and vacillated and lost credibility with my family. Dawn told me she also lost credibility with her family. This was especially hard because I have always tried to maintain integrity. I think the only think that made me lose it was that battle to stay in the NO.
That went on for ten years, as I said, and only ended when I got on the net and learned that the "popes" had wittingly, willingly even deliberately done the things they did. Eamon gets much credit for enlightening me. What I didn't know had really hurt me.
In the end Bishop Thuc "got to the bottom of it." A feat even Lafebre never accomplished and how many millions of others haven't accomplished to this day.
-
I couldn't bring the above article here because it was copyrighted. I couldn't understand it well, except that he said Bishop Thuc was caught on the horns of a dillema (sp). Caught between misereor super Sacrificium and mesereor super turbam.
I can understand this because I found myself caught on just such horns. For ten years I vacillated. I would bump into an atrocity and leave the church. Then I would think they had the sacraments and Jesus held captive, so I had to go back. Only to run into another atrocity and leave again. In this way I agonized and vacillated and lost credibility with my family. Dawn told me she also lost credibility with her family. This was especially hard because I have always tried to maintain integrity. I think the only think that made me lose it was that battle to stay in the NO.
That went on for ten years, as I said, and only ended when I got on the net and learned that the "popes" had wittingly, willingly even deliberately done the things they did. Eamon gets much credit for enlightening me. What I didn't know had really hurt me.
How well I understand this - vacillation. I, too, sometimes think that He is being held captive in the novus ordo and that I'll join Our Lady and St. John in keeping Him company at the foot of the cross. Except that I know all of the arguments and still can't decide who is right.
God bless and reward you, Dawn, and others who risked the loss of any credibility for the Truth. Nothing less than the Truth would have been enough no matter where it had to be sought out.
-
I didn't realize you are still stuck on the horns of that dillema. No wonder you suffer.
They don't have Jesus or the sacraments. They don't have anything but their own way. You are living in the heart of the Church now, and can put all that behind you.
-
I thought you knew.
I had no idea that you had gone through the same thing.
I wouldn't wish it on anyone. I feel like a plaything of satan.
Pray for me.
-
I think many of us have. I remember when I first learned that there was more than one kind of Catholic (I was told I was the "other" kind which was against abortion) I cried for four solid days. Then I sat like a zombie for six weeks trying to figure out what to do.
When I learned that the "popes" were doing all these things of their own free will, I turned my back and walked away and have had nothing to do with them ever since. That day I became a sede long before I knew what a sede was. I know they are whited sepulchres.
I pray for you daily.
-
Thank you for the biography, Trinity.
This is very different from the vicious things I had been told about Abp. Thuc.
Do you know the author of this?
-
I think many of us have. I remember when I first learned that there was more than one kind of Catholic (I was told I was the "other" kind which was against abortion) I cried for four solid days. Then I sat like a zombie for six weeks trying to figure out what to do.
When I learned that the "popes" were doing all these things of their own free will, I turned my back and walked away and have had nothing to do with them ever since. That day I became a sede long before I knew what a sede was. I know they are whited sepulchres.
I pray for you daily.
[/b]
God reward you for praying for me, and please pray that this vacillation
resolves itself soon before I lose the little sanity I have left. :pop:
-
I have put so many things up here I'm not sure which "this" you refer to. If it is the Tower Tribute I believe that is Dr. Drolesky. Not sure, mind you, but I think so. For the rest, they should have the names of their authors.
-
No, I think in this case the Tower of Trent was written by Michael Cain, editor of Daily Catholic. I tell you Alexandria it is because of Dr. Droleskey (who lagged behind me only slighly in coming out of the Sede closet) and Gladius Veritatis that I ever was able to reach the place I am at know. I highly suggest you go through the archived Wild West from Fisheaters (Eamon brought it here and Matthew can direct you.) EVERY SINGLE THING about the the true Church is not in the Novus Ordo. You must understand that they created a false Church at Vatican II and that the real Church is in eclipse. Now, many saints and mystics have told of this time to come. But, Our Lady told of it at LaSalette. If Our Immaculate Queen said it then it is enough for me to believe it.
-
Dawn speaks truth and there is more. The NO no longer has Jesus as they no longer have the power to consecrate the Host. Others here can explain this much better than I can, but I do know He is in the hands of real Catholics who will protect and properly reverence Him. You and I no longer need to rescue Him, just make our obeisances and proper reception of communion.
I vaguely remember a story Bishop Mark once told. On hearing that a tornado had touched down where the Sisters have their convent, His Excellency and Fr. Gregory looked at each other then rushed for the car. They were concerned for the Host. Evidently the Sisters have a chapel at their convent. The tornado had gone between two buildings and done no really bad damage.
So, you see, Jesus is safe; the sacraments are safe. Personally, I feel like I live in the land of milk and honey. My soul grows fat on the CMRI.
-
What is wrong with me that I find it impossible to believe that Our Lord would abandon a church full of souls? I find it impossible to believe that He would abandon His Presence in the Most Blessed Sacrament for them. Not all of them are shysters; there are some very good people there.
Bottom line for me is this, and it is two-fold:
1. When I say that I am the last one who should have been given the graces to see the truth, I sincerely mean that. It should be more the other way...that I am among the first who would be more readily deceived.
2. If the sedevacantists are wrong, then what? An eternity in hell?
-
Oh, dear. Try this, Alexandria, it was the turning point for me. Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, today and forever. If God is indefectible, and we know He is, how is it that He changed His mind at Vatican II? I say the only changes that were made were those of managament. In short, the Holy Ghost no longer heads the Vatican.
-
reading through this still, but it still catches one-that those that Thuc ordained and owned up to ordainging, were a mixed lot and seems questionable why he would ordain-again, causes questions of naivete vs senility vs gullability....granted some where godo liars, maybe, but was there no qualifications for ordaination? no exams, proof of study? nothing?
I am a bit more sympathetic in reading this and granted, ahve not finished it all yet, but still seems to re-enforce some strong doubts about the happenings......
-
well, finished reading and still nothing is overly clear-again, someone comes to him wanting consecration and for a a few questions-gets it???
ABL noted necessity of actions and canon laws. But the SSPX priests were interviewed, accepted to a seminary, trained and observed, had regular tests,etc and then after period of training, then ordained after rigourous training and weeding......
no "hey,there are a few German friends of yours here with some people to ordain" "oh, sure, why not, come in" sorta stuff.....yes, necesity is at hand, fine with arguement, but appears to have little standards and weeding processes...
-
I've been wondering why you weren't on this thread, Belloc. Thanks for joining us. Check again and see if Thuc was simply obeying his peers or superiors.
-
Alexandria says ---> Our Lord would abandon a church full of souls? I find it impossible to believe that He would abandon His Presence in the Most Blessed Sacrament for them. Not all of them are shysters; there are some very good people there.
You may be right, or maybe it only seems they are good people, maybe they are full of Pride, or perhaps if they are as good as they seem to be, God will call them out in His perfect time. Might be that he is using them to give an example. It is not when we lose the Mass and Sacraments that we lose our souls but when we lose the Faith, we are lost.
In referrence to Thuc, it might be that he thought the Church was being so persecuted that he ordained so many hoping some of them would carry on the Faith.
I barely remember hearing a story when I was very small from the good nuns, how during the persecution when Bishops were hiding for their lives, and fear of losing them, they would grab anyone and ordained them priest or Bishops just so the Church would live as God promised.
Don't forget too that Judas was hand picked by God and look what he did.
-
I've been wondering why you weren't on this thread, Belloc. Thanks for joining us. Check again and see if Thuc was simply obeying his peers or superiors.
some obediance yes, as in going to Spain at behest of ABL, true, but again, the ordinations in southern France post-Econe....none to kosher....also, my question appears un-addressed-why no clarification and stringent standards on ordaining people?? a trusted Geramn friend brings a few people up to the apt and viola, ordination with little checking......
-
Any similar examples from the protestant revolt? The hedge row priests in England? Etc?
-
In the end Bishop Thuc "got to the bottom of it." A feat even Lafebre never accomplished and how many millions of others haven't accomplished to this day.
ABL did understand all too well, his approach and plan differed.
again, he had a seminary, screened candidates, screened seminarians, had testing, instructions, etc before ordination
-
Alexandria says ---> Our Lord would abandon a church full of souls? I find it impossible to believe that He would abandon His Presence in the Most Blessed Sacrament for them. Not all of them are shysters; there are some very good people there.
You may be right, or maybe it only seems they are good people, maybe they are full of Pride, or perhaps if they are as good as they seem to be, God will call them out in His perfect time. Might be that he is using them to give an example. It is not when we lose the Mass and Sacraments that we lose our souls but when we lose the Faith, we are lost.
In referrence to Thuc, it might be that he thought the Church was being so persecuted that he ordained so many hoping some of them would carry on the Faith.
I barely remember hearing a story when I was very small from the good nuns, how during the persecution when Bishops were hiding for their lives, and fear of losing them, they would grab anyone and ordained them priest or Bishops just so the Church would live as God promised.
Don't forget too that Judas was hand picked by God and look what he did.
Christ as God knew Judas inside and out, Thuc seems not to have taken all that much time nor deliberation-big, big difference! yes persecution, yes times of doubt, etc-still one does not lay hands on with such flimsy reasoning and research of the candidate.....
are you defending Thuc a bit as your Bishop is in the direct line of the questionable canidates? are you being objective?
I am trying to be and thankful for Trinity posting this article, does ally my mind a bit more and given more enlightenment....
-
Any similar examples from the protestant revolt? The hedge row priests in England? Etc?
huh???
most prirest not trained in England during the initial stages were trained in Doui and other such palces and then snuck back inside Prot Britain....maybe some seminarians went udner groudn to be later ordained, fine, but no real parallel in England 16th C and Thuc issues.....
-
OK That settles that idea. Just going with the idea that desparate times call for desparate measures. We know Thuc was thoroughly Catholic, so perhaps we can deduce his thinking from his being. We also know he was an oriental, so his thinking wouldn't be like ours. In any event, as Catholics we are obliged to give him the most charitible construction.
-
Belloc ---> "Christ as God knew Judas inside and out."
Exactly as He knows each and everyone of us, yet He picked him.
Yes of course I am defending Thuc. Our Lord said, you will know them by their fruits, Bishop Pivarunas a good and holy Bishop questionable by people who do not want to change their life style or lose their friends and family from their parishes or churches they attend.
Trinity :applause:
-
I would love it if SJB would weigh in on Abp. Thuc, and also Vladimir.
-
I would too Elizabeth, and I'm grateful to all who are helping to sort this out.
I read about Thuc and his brother Diem before I became CMRI. So they became heroes of mine before I ever knew of Bishop Mark.
I'm wondering now, if perhaps Thuc trusted too much in Lafebre. Perhaps he thought Lafebre had ascertained their qualifications. I know Thuc was used to taking other people's leavings and doing the best with it. I will go get that from his tribute.
-
Apostolic Vicar of Saigon Bishop Dumortier who, truth be told, did not play fair, giving Thuc only that which Dumortier did not want - the dregs that is. Despite these obstacles, the Holy See in the mid 50's asked nigh unto the impossible: build a university for his Vicariate. Thuc entrusted this mission to Our Lord and His Blessed Mother and through providence founded the University of Dalat on a high plateau where the weather was perpetually spring-like and there were abundant water sources, streams and flat property high above the humid forests. Pine trees could indeed be found here, something unique for this climate.
In time he had masterminded a magnificent college using ingenuity and contacts. Throughout his life no one could ever accuse His Excellency of not being a can-do person. He was most enterprising, which would serve him well when he built a seminary in the center of Saigon on wasteland that became a treasure. Only after it was built did Dumortier want something he had given away and wanted nothing to do with it originally. The matter, which was part and parcel of the ecclesiastical law and tradition in the missions in conjunction with the wishes of the Sacred Congregation for the Propagation of the Faith in stating that when an indigenous bishop was appointed the missionary bishop would turn over to him those facilities that were already well-developed. Dumortier thought differently and gave Thuc the dregs of what he had. Thuc took the abuse until Dumortier demanded too much.
-
What is it that you are trying to sort out?
-
Thuc, was he a heel or a hero.
Thuc suffered as Our Lord did, silently, and at the hands of Our Lord's avowed enemies. They don't bother with pipsqueaks like me. They don't expend great energy in trying to destroy people who don't count. Bishop Thuc counted which is why they had to get rid of him and silence his leadership.
-
I don't think he was a heel at all. I posted earlier in the thread the conclusions I have come to regarding him. I think he grew to despise the church for what Paul VI did to him and his family, and I think he was severely traumatized. He lost EVERYTHING. They wouldn't even let him go back to his country so he was forced to stay in Italy and live in squalor. And then somehow he got hooked up with ABL who then proceeded to send Thuc to Palmar de Troye and the rest is history.
We will probably never know the whole story in this life. There is too much disinformation about him out there and it is hard to get to the truth. That is why I asked Vlad what he knows.
If they can discredit Archbishop Thuc, they can discredit us. I think that's the whole point. Sedevacantists are marginalized and considered the lunatic fringe not even worthy of the time of day.
-
Alexandria said:
If they can discredit Archbishop Thuc, they can discredit us. I think that's the whole point. Sedevacantists are marginalized and considered the lunatic fringe not even worthy of the time of day.
Not really. He is responsible for many of our Holy Orders but he is not our mascot or spokesperson. Remember the first prominent sedevacantist in the country, perhaps in the world, was Schuckardt. If we were going to judge our theological position by its most visible proponents, that would have ended us right there.
Abp. Thuc could have done what he did in some fit of inscrutable-Asianness or he could have done it for good motives, it doesn't really matter. He didn't leave a sedevacantist map to follow. He flirted with the position, abandoning it ( or at least saying the Novus Ordo ) and coming back to it by turns. But since his time it has evolved.
-
Once, Raoul, only once.
It was also a cleansing, if you will, by His Excellency to rid from his system the one time he had ever participated in the Novus Ordo which he did on Holy Thursday in 1981 at the bequest of the Bishop of Toulon. Needless to say, it was the only time he had and never again. He felt dirty, violated, and begged forgiveness from his Lord and Savior.
-
Alexandria said:
If they can discredit Archbishop Thuc, they can discredit us. I think that's the whole point. Sedevacantists are marginalized and considered the lunatic fringe not even worthy of the time of day.
Not really. He is responsible for many of our Holy Orders but he is not our mascot or spokesperson. Remember the first prominent sedevacantist in the country, perhaps in the world, was Schuckardt. If we were going to judge our theological position by its most visible proponents, that would have ended us right there.
Abp. Thuc could have done what he did in some fit of inscrutable-Asianness or he could have done it for good motives, it doesn't really matter. He didn't leave a sedevacantist map to follow. He flirted with the position, abandoning it ( or at least saying the Novus Ordo ) and coming back to it by turns. But since his time it has evolved.
I didn't mean that he was our mascot or spokesman. I don't have any personal Elvises and have no tolerance for those who do.
With the faith of your average person in the novus ordo pew, all they need is to know that a sedevacantist "leader" is questionable. They couldn't be bothered to look any further. It stops them in their tracks. What I'm trying to say is that if people like Thuc and others can be discredited, it will make even a person of good will hesitant to investigate sede claims.
Capiche?
-
What I would be more worried about are people of good will who are actively seeking the Church and are put off by these lies and misrepresentations.
-
What I would be more worried about are people of good will who are actively seeking the Church and are put off by these lies and misrepresentations.
Isn't that what I wrote? If not, that's what I meant and tried to say.
Most people are not critical thinkers - in or out of the Church. And, nowadays, they are mental sluggards and weren't even taught to think for themselves, and would rather follow any pied piper that comes along so as to go along to get along.
I know very few souls that have the backbone to stand all alone for the Truth. There is comfort in numbers; the larger the better.
-
Things may not have been as clear sailing for Bishop Thuc as people seem to think. Check this out:
http://catholic.shrineofsaintjude.net/homec081.html
So why do the SSPV persecute Abp. Thuc, call him evil/insane?
Is it the pot calling the kettle black, or somebody just doesn't like cats?
-
Things may not have been as clear sailing for Bishop Thuc as people seem to think. Check this out:
http://catholic.shrineofsaintjude.net/homec081.html
So why do the SSPV persecute Abp. Thuc, call him evil/insane?
Is it the pot calling the kettle black, or somebody just doesn't like cats?
I don't think Bishop Kelly likes any outside "competition".
-
LOL Alexandria, you crack me up. Don't count on me always reading you right. I can be very obtuse.
But this is something I've been meaning to say to you all day, and kept getting side tracked. Jesus didn't leave all those people. All those people left Jesus. Would satan be capable of fooling them into thinking they were still receiving the sacraments? Of course. And gladly. I count that his dirtiest trick! I agree with what you said above. But I'm sure others like us are out there trying to get to the bottom of things. I don't think the communist obfuscation should stand. And we all know the new churchers can lie with a straight face. Just look at the American bishops.
-
What I would be more worried about are people of good will who are actively seeking the Church and are put off by these lies and misrepresentations.
Some priests whom I once trusted had my family believing Abp. Thuc and his lineage are all not Catholic.
What a mess.
-
Let's face it - too many big egos involved all jockeying for the #1 position.
-
I don't think Bishop Kelly likes any outside "competition".
Then it is a puzzlement as to why his clergy who disobey him in public fail to apologise for what they have said about Abp. Thuc.
-
Why should they apologize?
Bottom line: the almighty dollar. The more parishioners that they can keep for themselves, the more profitable it is.
Elizabeth, you don't strike me as the gullible and naive type.
As for liars, they are all over. The novus ordo doesn't have the market on them. Remember what Ronald Reagan used to say to people: "I trust you but I want to verify what you say." Good advice!
-
I guess they're not repentent of ANYTHING, Elizabeth. Sound like a bunch of brigands.
-
Alexandria said:
Let's face it - too many big egos involved all jockeying for the #1 position.
This is a big part of the divide-and-conquer happening in the sedevacantist world. It has been alleged that Bishop Vezelis locked Abp. Thuc up in Rochester New York so that he couldn't go out and consecrate anyone else. Bp. Vezelis wanted to be the bishop who saved the Church. These allegations have the ring of truth because, lo and behold, Bp. Vezelis makes his parishioners sign a paper saying he is the only valid bishop in the United States.
How many times have we seen cult situations arise within sedevacantism? There is Vezelis, there is Schuckardt, and the rumors are a-swirl about SGG. Those in SSPX use this against the sedevacantist position, as if SSPX's better organization means they are more favored by God -- I hate to break it to them, but the Novus Ordo Church is also well-organized... That doesn't mean anything. It's just that because we are so few, we are backed into a corner, and so there is lots of jockeying for position just to stay afloat! Not to mention that unscrupulous characters have taken advantage of our predicament.
-
In the end Bishop Thuc "got to the bottom of it." A feat even Lafebre never accomplished and how many millions of others haven't accomplished to this day.
ABL did understand all too well, his approach and plan differed.
again, he had a seminary, screened candidates, screened seminarians, had testing, instructions, etc before ordination
Well Belloc, you and I both know that those Orientals always are ahead and never lag behind anyone. :cool:
-
Alexandria said:
Let's face it - too many big egos involved all jockeying for the #1 position.
This is a big part of the divide-and-conquer happening in the sedevacantist world. It has been alleged that Bishop Vezelis locked Abp. Thuc up in Rochester New York so that he couldn't go out and consecrate anyone else. Bp. Vezelis wanted to be the bishop who saved the Church. These allegations have the ring of truth because, lo and behold, Bp. Vezelis makes his parishioners sign a paper saying he is the only valid bishop in the United States.
How many times have we seen cult situations arise within sedevacantism? There is Vezelis, there is Schuckardt, and the rumors are a-swirl about SGG.
It's things like this that make me want to just throw in the towel, go back to the novus ordo, and stick my head in the sand. No matter which way you turn - it's all the same. There is something very wrong somewhere.
-
I don't want to rain on any parades here, but I strongly suspect that all this back biting is just satan's way to garner more souls. I think Bishop Mark and the CMRI priests have found the better way. Build, don't tear down.
-
Alexandria said:
There is something very wrong somewhere.
I have a long and involved post written but it makes me look like a madman. I was trying to explain how all this was done, putting myself in the devil's mind.
Basically the devil has created a labyrinth. As he does in politics, it is the same in the Church. He controls every side and he marginalizes the opposition. To make it simple --
Step 1: Take over the Church from inside ( Novus Ordo )
Step 2: Control the traditionalists and keep them sweet, so that they don't blow the lid on the frauds in Rome ( SSPX )
Step 3: Marginalize the true opposition so that they look like a bunch of tinfoil hats ( sedes )
Those like Belloc can boast about the superior prudence of Abp. Lefebvre all they want. The fact is, he only went halfway. If SSPX never happened, who knows, the sedevacantist movement might have actually gained steam. How many potential bright lights of sedevacantism were sucked into the SSPX because they could have cushier careers there?
There are just so many factors in play here, so many ways the devil can use and manipulate people and crush the truth.
-
Where to begin? SSPV, yes it is true that they are guilty of this ...what is the word...marking their territory and yes I think it is for money. The easiest thing to do is shout out that someone is insane and most everyone will doubt not the shouter but the accused. I agree with you Trinity and I think well of Thuc (as if anyone gives a rats tail on what I think).
Novus Ordos. Pray for them as we pray for all who are outside the faith. But, I will tell you this in just my own circle they are the most prideful and most rooted in sin people I know. I am the oldest of seven children. They in turn have over 12 children that are young adults. Then, there are neighbors ( I live on the street with several prominent Novus Ordo neighbors). Not a one of them is not living in some sort of sinful situation. Whether or not it is living together without marriage, not attending Mass on Sundays and Holydays, cursing using Gods name. Whatever. Still, these people (with the exception of my one sister) love nothing better than to call me names or tell me I am insane or living wrong in the world. They ALL tell me that times have changed. Now then, it gets better. They will then go on to ask their "priest" what he thinks of different things that I say the Church teaches. Guess what? I am still called wrong headed and stuck behind the times. Don't ya know that the Church has softened its view on fornication, birth control, divorce, salvation. B.S.!!!!!
Their eyes really glaze over when I tell them that their "priest" is not even validly ordained. And, for the record, yes many of these HAVE heard the truth and rather recently. You see, Father Oswalt was at the local Novus Ordo. He of course is now with the CMRI. Let me tell you when he left it sent shockwaves throught the "Fox Valley". I found out about him when someone came to visit and said, "boy you missed it, there was this priest at St. Pat's who left because he believed in the "OLD" ways like you do.
Well here is a news flash. God believes in the Old ways to. His ways are the same yesterday, today and always.
Now, one must wrap their head around the concept of these men actually creating a new religion, a new church at Vatican II. And, this is the religion of man. For the Novus Ordo is not Christocentric, but homocentric (HOMO... :bob-marley: no pun intended). And, then one must understand that they created a new liturgy, one that even went farther than the one made up by that constipated old womanizer Martin Luther.
But, that was simply not enough. They then went on to change the words of ordination so that they are no longer valid (priests prior to 1969 are safe). They reworded the consecration so that transubstantiation does not take place (that should take a load of you mind when you see on of those Busby Berkley style papal extravaganzas that they do, while leaving the novus ordo cookie on the ground).
So, I will gladly stay a part of the lunatic fringe. You see 2,000 years ago Christ himself was considered the leader of the lunatic fringe. He still is today.
-
Hope that makes sense, I have a ratty old headache.
-
Wow! It made bunches of sense. I can't do that well without a headache.
You guys are really getting down to the niddy griddy. I do want to highlight what you said about Jesus being a fringe lunatic. One of the really big ways you know you are His is when you are treated like Him. If there were no other indicators that Thuc was a good Catholic aside from his behavior, you could tell he was by the way he was treated by the enemy.
And as for his behavior, I can find nothing wrong with it. I can find much right with it.
-
Dawn, I care what you have to say.
-
Raoul Said:
"Those like Belloc can boast about the superior prudence of Abp. Lefebvre all they want. The fact is, he only went halfway. If SSPX never happened, who knows, the sedevacantist movement might have actually gained steam. How many potential bright lights of sedevacantism were sucked into the SSPX because they could have cushier careers there?"
Others have said the same in the seventies and eighties.
If you want to PM me with your lengthier madman version, I'll read it.
-
So will I.
-
I would love to sit down and talk to Fr. Oswalt. Our pastor was kind enough to have him come to our chapel and give a two hour presentation, but I would still like to sit down with him and talk. He, better than anyone else (since he didn't grow up in the CMRI), would be able to help me.
-
Oh, I do hope you can visit with him. I would like to meet him someday. Did you see his article in the Four Marks? Toss any questions you have at me for now. I'll do my best. Night all.
-
God grant you a peaceful night and a restful sleep!
-
Raoul Said:
"Those like Belloc can boast about the superior prudence of Abp. Lefebvre all they want. The fact is, he only went halfway. If SSPX never happened, who knows, the sedevacantist movement might have actually gained steam. How many potential bright lights of sedevacantism were sucked into the SSPX because they could have cushier careers there?"
Others have said the same in the seventies and eighties.
If you want to PM me with your lengthier madman version, I'll read it.
And this, my dear young man was also planned! SSPX was set up to grab the "bright lights" and the people with money. If the emenies could keep these Catholics in the "back room" of the V11 church, the resistence to the New Church could be minimized.
-
Raoul Said:
"Those like Belloc can boast about the superior prudence of Abp. Lefebvre all they want. The fact is, he only went halfway. If SSPX never happened, who knows, the sedevacantist movement might have actually gained steam. How many potential bright lights of sedevacantism were sucked into the SSPX because they could have cushier careers there?"
Others have said the same in the seventies and eighties.
If you want to PM me with your lengthier madman version, I'll read it.
Agreed. And that is all I will say here. The rest can be had by sending me a pm
-
Sorry, I lost my madman rant, but there is more where that came from. Some might say a neverending stream -- check the Alex Jones thread.
One thought before bed. I talk to Alex ( not Jones, the Alex from this site ) on the phone and she likes to say that only the Holy Pope who works with the Great Monarch can end the confusion, only then will we know if these are Popes or not Popes. Okay. But there is another way to look at it. Yes, this situation looks like it will be ended with a holy Pope and restoration of the Church -- but did it have to be that way? God only pulls miracles out of his hat when it is absolutely necessary. Otherwise, He prefers to work through us, men, His agents, His emissaries, His saints.
Following from that, the fact that there has to be a Minor Chastisement that kills 75% of the population in order to shake people out of their incredible torpor -- what more needs to be said? Did it have to be this way? Yeah, God knows all events beforehand and He knew this would happen, but that doesn't mean He approves of it. He also knows about the advent of the Antichrist beforehand but has no wish for that event. It's just that humanity's rebellion opens the door for evil, and because of free will God lets it happen.
There are two ways to look at our present predicament then:
( a ) We don't have to worry about who is Pope and we just have to go to the Latin Mass and be patient because God will solve all of this ( by killing off or permitting to be killed the majority of population, including children and old people, which I'm sure He just LOVES doing -- sarcasm )
( b ) God has to send the Chastisement because humanity was frozen and lukewarm and failed to use the grace He gave us to solve the crisis on our own.
Of course ( b ) is the truth and more in keeping with God's nature. We are all responsible for how far things have gone. Never has an age had so many brilliant engineers, historians, academics, doctors, all these people putting all this energy into everything OTHER than the kingdom of God which they were instructed to seek FIRST. What astonishes me is how filmmakers continue making films, musicians continue writing music, newscaster continue casting fake news, and all of this keeps trudging on, when ALL PEOPLE SHOULD BE TALKING ABOUT IS VATICAN II. Where is the outrage, the uproar over this outside the trad circles?
There is a conspiracy behind Vatican II, but the conspiracy is led by a relatively few men. They could be smoked out like the ineffectual weenies they are by a mass awakening. Yet the masses prefer to be paid off and bought off, they have chosen "their lives," "their careers," over God, wanting to have "normal lives" and turn a blind eye to reality. It is perfect justice now that all their jobs are failing, their reality is failing and crumbling right in front of them. And still in the ruins they go on searching for that paycheck, for that jackpot. Un-freaking-believable, this Apostasy. Just to observe it is amazing.
-
God only pulls miracles out of his hat when it is absolutely necessary. Otherwise, He prefers to work through us, men, His agents, His emissaries, His saints.
This is true and an important consideration when discussing how the Church will be restored.
-
And if you are a particularly good tool of God it is very possible that the enemy will try to destroy you rather than have you salvage any souls for Him. Failing that he will probably marginalize you and destroy your reputation so as to keep souls from profiting by you. You may even find your family dessimated, your see stolen and yourself being kicked from pillar to post, not to mention everything you do being manipulated and brought to ruin.
And that, I think, is the true story of Thuc. I want to thank you all for helping to bring this to the light. It must have been a refreshing change for our good Bishop Thuc and I'm sure his shepherd's heart delights in every one of you.
-
Raoul said:
"Where is the outrage, the uproar over this outside the trad circles?"
Well, you see Raoul, anytime anyone had the nerve to pipe up about something that didn't seem quite right, or have the audacity to mention that such and such now being taught in the Church contradicts what the Church used to teach, they were either ridiculed or laughed to scorn, and then told that what they were seeing or thinking they perceived wasn't really there. In short, they had their "catholic sense" squashed, muted and rendered useless.
-
SJB
What is your opinion about Thuc?
-
Here's something that I recalled last night as I was attempting to fall asleep.
There was a priest ordained by a Thuc bishop (not here, somewhere in Europe) that went to the Vatican because he wanted to go back to the novus ordo church. He was accepted back in without any conditional ordination.
-
Raoul Said:
"Those like Belloc can boast about the superior prudence of Abp. Lefebvre all they want. The fact is, he only went halfway. If SSPX never happened, who knows, the sedevacantist movement might have actually gained steam. How many potential bright lights of sedevacantism were sucked into the SSPX because they could have cushier careers there?"
Others have said the same in the seventies and eighties.
If you want to PM me with your lengthier madman version, I'll read it.
And this, my dear young man was also planned! SSPX was set up to grab the "bright lights" and the people with money. If the emenies could keep these Catholics in the "back room" of the V11 church, the resistence to the New Church could be minimized.
All I can say about posts like this (as in all of the quoted posts) is that in my opinion we should refrain from making such judgments and categorizing an entire group as large as the SSPX under one blanket category. I think that this applies to all the trad. movements. Archbishop Thuc and Archbishop Lefebvre were both holy men regardless of how their successors have turned out.
These days, everything is turned upside down.....place your trust in Jesus Christ.
-
Interview of a Catholic Priest who knew Archbishop Thuc
-
Nuts! I've been trying to move Fr. Neil Webster's interview on Bp. Thuc over here and I can't pull it off. Sorry about the dead post.
-
Have any of you checked out Neal Webster's credentials - who ordained him, the lineage, his affiliations?
-
Have any of you checked out Neal Webster's credentials - who ordained him, the lineage, his affiliations?
Hi Roman Catholic :cheers:
How does one check out credentials? (I don't know who Neal Webster is even) I know that savvy people can find out just about anything about anyone these days.
What's your take on Abp. Thuc, if any?
-
Interview of a Catholic Priest who knew Archbishop Thuc
Here is a link to the interview. This is from Bishop Webster's site.
Interview of a priest who lived with Archbishop Thuc. (http://www.true-doctrine.com/sermons/07_06_05Thuc_Webster.mp3)
-
Thank you so much, Rosemary. I was really hoping you would do this.
-
Thank you so much, Rosemary. I was really hoping you would do this.
You are very welcome, Trinity.
-
Here is a link to the interview. This is from Bishop Webster's site.
A million thanks, Rosemary. I have been searching for this for ages, having listened to it a few years ago.
-
Here is a link to the interview. This is from Bishop Webster's site.
A million thanks, Rosemary. I have been searching for this for ages, having listened to it a few years ago.
You are welcome, Elizabeth.
-
St. Vincent Ferrer made mistakes, not only following the wrong Pope, but apparently he used to go around preaching that Judas repented and he was under fire by the Inquisition.
This is admittedly a minor point, but is there some official church pronouncement saying that Judas did not repent? It seems that, given the manner of his death, it would have been possible. Unlikely maybe, but possible. It may be an odd opinion to say he did, and I don't see any evidence for it in the gospels, but it surely isn't heresy, is it?
-
Sigismund, Our Lord said it would have been better if Judas had never been born.
-
Sigismund, Our Lord said it would have been better if Judas had never been born.
Okay. It would be hard to make any sense out of that statement if Judas were not damned. I see your point.
-
26 de julio de 2006
Miércoles
vol 17, no. 195
La segunda persona en ser honrada y consagrada en el Salón de Honor de la Torre de Trento de este año es el muy incomprendido sucesor apostólico Pierre Martin Ngo-dinh-Thuc. Después de una extensa investigación, este editor confía plenamente en que los votos de los lectores están justificados y que hace mucho que se necesita un homenaje público a este fiel guerrero de las Verdades y Tradiciones de la Santa Madre Iglesia. La cita anterior del obispo Louis Vezelis, OFM, como escribió en The Seraph. Nuestra misión aquí es honrar a un hombre gravemente difamado y afirmar los hechos y la verdad que hemos descubierto después de más de un mes de investigación exhaustiva sobre la vida y las obras de este asediado Sucesor de los Apóstoles que tenía un mandato especial de dos pre- Pontífices del Vaticano II y muchos creen, aunque se lo llevó a la tumba, que Su Santidad el Papa Pío XII lo había nombrado Cardenal de la Iglesia in pectore. Esto lógicamente indica por qué los conciliaristas lo condenaron al ostracismo y finalmente tuvo que ser silenciado mediante la traición de su propio pueblo, tal como lo habían sido su padre y sus hermanos. Este es entonces el intento de este escritor de brindar la trágica pero triunfante historia del arzobispo Peter Martin Ngo-dinh-Thuc.
Soldado de Cristo
Decimos que fue un "guerrero" porque, a pesar de su carácter pacifista, fue, en todo momento, ante todo, un soldado de y para Jesucristo. De hecho, esas son las mismas palabras en su escudo de armas: Miles Christi, que en vietnamita es Chin si Chúa Kitô. En vida representó verdaderamente a la Iglesia militante al permanecer siempre fiel a la única y verdadera Iglesia que nuestro Señor fundó sobre la Roca de Pedro (cf. San Mateo 16, 18-19). Hemos titulado su homenaje "Soldado de Cristo, Prisionero de Guerra, Abogado de la Verdad" porque él fue ciertamente un prisionero de guerra en muchos sentidos, pero siempre fue el defensor de las verdades infrangibles.
Es necesario comprender sus raíces y su mentalidad oriental para comprender mejor su determinación y las causas y efectos de su vida, recordando que siempre - SIEMPRE - permaneció fiel a la fe católica en la que fue criado desde su nacimiento. Las raíces de la familia en Annam estaban en Dai-phong, de donde había emigrado su padre desde Tonkin.
Pierre Martin nació en vísperas de la fiesta de Nuestra Señora de la Victoria, el 6 de octubre de 1897, en el pueblo de Phu-Cam en la ciudad de Hué, la "capital mística de Annam" en el centro de Vietnam, no lejos de la costa del Mar del Sur de China. Era hijo de Ngo-Dinh-Kha, quien, como escribió el Arzobispo en su autobiografía publicada por The Seraph en 1983 y que el Obispo Giles, OFM amablemente nos ha dado permiso para utilizar en este tributo: "Ningún vietnamita olvidará los nombres de Ngo-Dinh-Kha, mi padre que sufrió mil muertes por no haber votado con otros dignatarios de la corte para deponer al emperador Than-Thai impuesto ilegalmente por el representante de Francia en Annam (Vietnam Central), y de mi padre mayor hermano Ngo-Dinh-Khoi, que fue enterrado vivo junto con su único hijo por haberse negado a servir como ministro en el primer ministerio comunista. Se negó porque lo consideraba incompatible con ser católico".
Si los católicos de hoy tuvieran el coraje y la convicción del padre de Pierre Martin, la Iglesia no estaría en la crisis que está. Debido a que la civilización occidental ha cedido, nos encontramos comprometidos. Hay mucho que decir sobre la disciplina, la lealtad a la familia y la educación católica de los fieles orientales, como lo atestiguan las propias memorias de Su Excelencia: "Era imposible ser un funcionario católico y comunista". Si tan solo la Iglesia moderna se hubiera dado cuenta de esto antes de que Juan XXIII ordenara la concesión total al comunismo con el desastroso Pacto de Metz en agosto de 1962. Pero nos estamos adelantando porque en la época de la educación del joven Pierre había santos Papas sentados en el trono. Silla de Pedro. Nació en los últimos años del pontificado del valiente oponente de la Amenaza Roja, el Papa León XIII, y alcanzó la mayoría de edad durante el papado del santo Papa San Pío X.
Vietnam durante más de un milenio había sido un vasallo, por así decirlo. , de China, y que aborda el modo de vida mandarín. Sin embargo, hasta el día de hoy los vietnamitas y los chinos siguen siendo enemigos. El arzobispo Thuc lo expresó sucintamente: los vietnamitas pueden haber sido "conquistados, pero nunca dejaron de resistir". Durante 200 años los vietnamitas fueron privados de los sacramentos y aun así mantuvieron viva la fe gracias a la dedicación de las familias que transmitieron la fe a sus hijos, etc. También ayudó que los antiguos mandarines de cada pueblo transmitieran la educación necesaria para que cuando los franceses colonizaran Indochina durante la dinastía Nguyen, como la Corte Real en esta foto ilustra las costumbres de principios de siglo y el joven emperador debajo. Notarás el Dragón de la Dinastía Nguyen y si notas que en el Escudo de Armas del Arzobispo tiene tres dragones, sin duda un vínculo con la Dinastía Nguyen en Annam.
Había quienes ya eran conocedores de la Fe. Uno de ellos fue el padre de Thuc quien, si bien debía lealtad al joven rey de su provincia Thanh-Thai, fue con entusiasmo uno de los pioneros en la difusión de la educación de la lengua francesa en todo el centro de Vietnam, que en ese momento se llamaba "Annam". " Fue Ngo-dinh-Kha quien fundó el colegio nacional de su país: Quoc-Hoc. Por su posición, sus hijos ascendieron en el rango de mandarines con pocos problemas como Su Excelencia registró en su autobiografía titulada después del primer verso del Salmo 88: Misericordias Domini in Aeternum Cantabo traducido como "Las misericordias del Señor cantaré para siempre". y publicado exclusivamente en The Seraph a finales de 1982 y durante todo 1983. El Arzobispo, en el mismo escrito, escribió:
Soy vietnamita. Esto explica mi carácter. Así como ser francés ayuda a comprender la espiritualidad de la Pequeña Flor, Santa Teresa; así como ser castellano explica el carácter de la gran Teresa de Ávila.
Eso definitivamente debería describir y ser la razón fundamental de lo que la mentalidad occidental podría denominar inferior. En verdad somos nosotros los inferiores porque este hombre tan difamado por tantos que ignorantes de la verdad lo han acusado injustamente. Es similar a vivir en los tiempos posteriores a la Ascensión de Cristo y cuestionar la autoridad del apóstol Pablo. ¿Cómo se atreve un Jєω a predicar a los gentiles? ¿Cómo se atreve un oriental humilde y erudito a predicarle a un occidental orgulloso? Esto fue más evidente primero en la actitud de los franceses hacia los vietnamitas, ya que no eran ciudadanos franceses sino vasallos de los franceses. Los vietnamitas tienen una larga memoria y, naturalmente, les molestaba tener en cuenta que los chinos los habían tratado de la misma manera. Por tanto, los franceses tuvieron que esforzarse para ganarse la confianza. Esto lo hicieron la mayoría de los sacerdotes misioneros y se obtuvieron grandes frutos, pero también hubo quienes cuya supuesta superioridad sobre estos campesinos de los arrozales les salió por la culata. En retrospectiva, es una respuesta clara a por qué Francia primero fracasó y luego Estados Unidos fracasó en convertir a Vietnam en un país culturalmente de tipo occidental. Ya tenían su cultura y esto, ni siquiera Roma siempre lo reconoció, como lo explicó Su Excelencia varias veces en su autobiografía. Una de las razones por las que los aldeanos pudieron mantener viva la fe incluso sin un sacerdote o los sacramentos a lo largo de los siglos fue porque nadie podía anular el control de la aldea. Esto es importante no sólo para comprender la mentalidad de los vietnamitas, sino también para darnos cuenta de la inutilidad de los franceses y, más catastróficamente, de los estadounidenses al tratar de someter a Vietnam y obligarlo a convertirse en una democracia. El arzobispo Thuc explica en su autobiografía:
Un pueblo vietnamita es como una pequeña república y trata al Estado como dos Estados. Si el Estado imponía un impuesto para la guerra de dinero y hombres, los ancianos de la aldea determinaban la cantidad que cada aldeano tendría que pagar y también decidían quién sería enviado al ejército real. Había un proverbio vietnamita que decía: "Los decretos del rey se inclinan ante las costumbres de la aldea". El alcalde (Ly-truong) no era el jefe de la aldea sino el representante del consejo de la aldea ante las autoridades superiores. . Sin embargo, fue sobre su cabeza donde cayeron los golpes de la caña de ratán cuando las autoridades no estaban contentas con el pueblo.
Los Consejeros del pueblo eran, en primer lugar, los niños del pueblo que tenían el título de mandarines (antiguos mandarines). Luego, los que eran doctos y que habían presentado los exámenes trienales para los títulos de Licenciado y Doctor. Finalmente, los ciudadanos ricos completaron la membresía del consejo. Fue en este consejo donde la inteligencia era más importante que la riqueza que se asignaron campos de arroz a cada ciudadano en partes iguales. Los arrozales eran propiedad común. Estas asignaciones se realizaron cada tres años basándose en el mismo tamaño pero no en la misma fertilidad.
Los ciudadanos sólo tenían como propiedad privada las tierras que ellos mismos habían limpiado, mientras que los campos comunes habían sido limpiados en el momento de la fundación del pueblo por un hombre emprendedor que, después de haber recuperado una "tierra de nadie", reclutó voluntarios para ayudar. él encontró un nuevo pueblo. Se trata de un hecho social que muestra el espíritu de independencia de los vietnamitas hacia las autoridades superiores, manteniendo al mismo tiempo una relación amistosa entre dos Estados.
Evidentemente, todo esto ha sido barrido por la nivelación del igualitarismo moderno. ¿Es para bien o para mal? Al menos, el sistema antiguo no era inferior al moderno porque teníamos dos tipos de propiedad: comunitaria y privada. Tuvimos el reparto trienal sin la invasión de un Estado totalitario. La independencia del ciudadano encontró un lugar donde respirar sin renunciar por completo a las ventajas de un Estado centralizado. Esta sed de independencia corre por las venas de los vietnamitas y explica la lucha milenaria contra los chinos, luego contra los franceses, aprovechando al mismo tiempo lo mejor de las civilizaciones china y francesa.
Aquí podemos vislumbrar por qué los aldeanos de Vietnam del Sur no traicionaron al Vietcong porque la sangre corre más espesa que el agua y los VC eran en primer lugar vietnamitas y en segundo lugar comunistas. Por el contrario, los estadounidenses, que decían ser libertadores, estaban destruyendo la vida de los aldeanos con su napalm. Al recordar esa terrible guerra que dividió tan amargamente a Estados Unidos, fue la politiquería de los masones la que no permitió que los generales dirigieran la guerra, tal como ocurre hoy en Irak y en otros lugares. Los masones del Estado y de la Iglesia toman las decisiones y exigen patriotismo a Belial. Mi país, bien o mal es el mantra y va en contra de las Leyes de Dios. Como escribió el Arzobispo: "Era imposible ser un funcionario católico y comunista", así también es imposible ser un funcionario católico y americanista (masónico)". Esto se confirma en la encíclica del Papa León XIII condenando el americanismo.
Pero volvamos al arzobispo Thuc. Su familia arriba, de izquierda a derecha, según lo mejor que podemos descifrar, son los hermanos del arzobispo, Ngo-dinh-Nhu, asesor de seguridad; Ngo-dinh-Diem, primer presidente de Vietnam del Sur; el obispo Ngo-dinh-Thuc; su hermana Ngo-dinh-Giao; Esposa de Nhu desde 1943. anteriormente Tran Le Xuan, originaria de Hanoi y que se convirtió del budismo al catolicismo y, debido a que Diem era soltera, era considerada la Primera Dama de Vietnam del Sur como Madame Ngo-dinh-Nhu; el hermano mayor Ngo-dinh-Khoi, gobernador de la administración francesa de Vietnam para Indochina, quien después de que se tomara esta fotografía sería martirizado por los comunistas por orden de Ho Chi Minh por negarse a servir como ministro con el Viet Minh; el hermano menor, Ngo-dinh-Can, que sería engañado haciéndole creer que los estadounidenses le estaban dando un salvoconducto para salir del país después del golpe y que fue asesinado por un pelotón de fusilamiento con Rosario en la mano; Ngo-dinh-Luyen, el hermano menor y embajador en Gran Bretaña que se refugió en Francia junto con la viuda Madame Nhu y su familia tras los asesinatos de Diem, Nhu y luego Can. En el centro está la madre del arzobispo a quien, después de celebrar la Santa Misa, tomó la Comunión diaria en su casa de Phu-Cam todos los días a las 7 de la mañana antes de regresar a su oficina a las 9 de la mañana. Lo hizo hasta su muerte a la edad de 9 años. 90. A la izquierda de la matriarca están los dos jóvenes Nhu y las dos niñas Nhu, siendo el mayor (el más alto) Ngo-dinh-Nhu-Le Thuy, quien moriría en un accidente automovilístico en París a finales de los años 60. Sí, la muerte de una joven de una familia real en un accidente automovilístico en las calles de París ocurrió mucho antes de la tragedia de Diana. La fotografía familiar probablemente fue tomada en algún momento entre 1955 y 1960 y todos lucen el atuendo tradicional. En sus memorias, el arzobispo escribe: "El círculo del entorno es la familia. Mi familia es vietnamita en cuanto a raza y en cuanto a religión: católica a la manera de los vietnamitas, que consiste en valerse por sí mismo sin esperar ayuda cuestionable de los demás. " Así sobrevivió la Iglesia en Vietnam cuando la persecución de los reyes la privó de sacerdotes extranjeros. Unos pocos, escondidos en los bosques, sostenían a los cristianos que se consideraban entonces muy privilegiados de poder recibir los Sacramentos una o dos veces en su casa. Vidas enteras."
¿No avergüenza esto a todos los católicos, especialmente a los católicos tradicionales, porque hemos dado por sentado nuestra fe demasiadas veces y solo ahora, en estos tiempos, somos los más privados de una asistencia regular a la Misa Inmemorial Canonizada de Todas las Edades, la Misa Tradicional en Latín? El resto se ha vendido, ya sea a sabiendas o no, al rito artificial masónico-modernista-pagano y protestante inventado por el masón de grado 33 Annibale Bugnini y acreditado a Giovanni Montini como un rito ilegal. Sólo unos pocos obispos resistieron y todos flaquearon en un momento u otro, porque la poderosa influencia de los conciliaristas no conoce límites en mentiras y encubrimientos. Esto es algo que siguió al arzobispo Thuc durante toda su vida y, como escribió el obispo Louis Vezelis, OFM en su homenaje en 1984 en The Seraph: "Una vez que una mentira ha hecho su trabajo, la verdad debe trabajar duro y durante mucho tiempo para desalojarla. Las mentiras vuelan como si tiene alas, y la verdad viene lentamente cojeando muy atrás. Tal es el triste destino de la humanidad." Fueron estas calumnias con las que el arzobispo vivió como cruz durante los últimos 21 años de su vida.
Mientras sus hermanos ascendían en las filas de funcionarios gubernamentales dentro del pueblo al servicio del rey, Pierre Martin escuchó una vocación diferente y entró en el seminario menor con sólo doce años. Escribió en su autobiografía: "Acepté mi vocación sacerdotal sin reservas como mi puesto de batalla en este mundo. No importaba dónde estaría mi puesto; no importaba cómo moriría". Hablado como un verdadero soldado de Cristo.
Después de ocho años de estudios preparatorios y universitarios, se graduó en el seminario mayor de Hué en 1917, el mismo año en que Nuestra Señora se apareció en Fátima y el año en que Eugenio Pacelli fue nombrado obispo en la Capilla Sixtina el 13 de mayo por Su Santidad el Papa Benedicto XV. . El 20 de diciembre de 1925, a la edad de 28 años, el Vicario Apostólico de Hué, Mons. Eugène-Marie-Joseph Allys, ordenó sacerdote al joven Pierre Martin. Después de su ordenación fue asignado a la Sorbona en París, donde su conocimiento del francés le ayudó mucho, además de atender a los vietnamitas repatriados en la Ciudad de la Luz. Allí fue nombrado profesor. Después de un año en el cargo, se matriculó en la Pontificia Universidad Gregoriana de Roma, donde obtuvo doctorados en Teología, Filosofía y Derecho Canónico. Como vemos, no era ningún tonto, sino más bien un hombre muy culto, pero también de lo más práctico. A la edad de 30 años regresó triunfalmente a Hue, donde fue destinado como profesor tanto en el Colegio de los Hermanos Vietnamitas como en el Seminario Mayor de Hue. Además se convirtió en decano del College of Providence.
El 8 de enero de 1938, Su Santidad el Papa Pío XI creó el Vicariato Apostólico de Vinh Long en el extremo suroeste de Vietnam. Él personalmente eligió a Pierre Martin para que fuera el nuevo obispo allí y envió como emisario al arzobispo Antonio Fernand Drapier, delegado apostólico en Indochina, para consagrar al obispo Thuc. Su familia estuvo presente en este glorioso evento. En la rara fotografía de la derecha se le ve como un joven obispo. Unos meses más tarde, el nuevo Obispo regresó a Roma, donde tuvo una audiencia privada con Su Santidad y obtuvo del Sucesor 259 de Pedro, y nuevamente más tarde del Sucesor 260, algunos años más tarde, un mandato apostólico para consagrar obispos en tiempos de extrema necesidad cuando las comunicaciones serían casi imposibles o el rebaño estaría en peligro. Insinúa precisamente esto en el número de diciembre de 1983 de The Seraph cuando escribió que había aconsejado a los obispos vietnamitas que había consagrado qué hacer si alguna vez los comunistas tomaban el control: "no publicar los nombres de los sacerdotes recién ordenados; solicitar de la Santa Sede la facultad de cada Obispo de nombrar uno o dos sucesores sin tener que pedir autorización a la Santa Sede en caso de interrupción de la comunicación con el Vaticano." Este razonamiento le serviría en la época de La Gran Apostasía, cuando se dio cuenta de que había una ruptura total de la comunicación con el Vaticano para los hombres que dirigían Roma durante y después de que el Concilio había vendido a Cristo. Continuó así su mandato apostólico tras su exilio, en el que profundizaremos más adelante en este homenaje.
A la luz de lo anterior, es importante recordar aquí la connivencia de los comunistas y los masones con la Iglesia a partir de la participación de Angelo Roncalli y Giovanni Montini tanto en los círculos fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ como en los círculos comunistas cuando ambos eran nuncios. Ese mismo humanismo, condenado por papas confiables anteriores, desde el Papa Pablo IV hasta el Papa Pío XII, fue exactamente la agenda impulsada por los papas conciliares Juan XXIII y Pablo VI, sin mencionar al hombre comunista en Polonia, nada menos que el propio Karol Wojtyla. odiaba abiertamente a los nαzιs pero simpatizaba con los soviéticos debido a su influencia en su Polonia natal, que le permitió ascender en las filas, mientras que el cardenal primado de Polonia, el cardenal Stefan Wyszinski, estaba limitado por las fuerzas rojas debido a su firme oposición a los nαzιs. consecuencias devastadoras de la hoz y el martillo. Es por eso que el Arzobispo se dio cuenta de que el tiempo de Epikeia le ordenó continuar la sucesión de los verdaderos apóstoles después de descubrir que Pablo VI había cambiado el rito de ordenación y consagración de los obispos, invalidándolos como otro homenajeado este año el Padre Antonio Cekada tan brillantemente colocado. y docuмentado en su obra "Absolutely Null and Utterly Void" sobre el Rito de Consagración Episcopal de 1968 que, de hecho, deja al descubierto la verdad de que el actual "Papa" conciliar ni siquiera es un obispo auténtico.
En 1960, el arzobispo francés Jean-Baptiste Urrutia, que era arzobispo de Hue desde 1948, presentó su dimisión. Juan XXIII, que había ascendido en las filas de los nuncios apostólicos y prácticamente no tenía ni idea de Oriente, eligió al más disponible: el obispo Pierre Martin. Su Excelencia lo cuenta en una visita a la Santa Sede como decano cuando trajo consigo a diez de sus obispos y Roncalli preguntó sin rodeos: "¿Qué es este 'Vietnam'?". Verdaderamente despistado y el Arzobispo escribió en El Serafín: "Y Juan XXIII fue el Vicario de Aquel que declaró hace 2000 años: 'Yo conozco a Mis ovejas y Mis ovejas me conocen a Mí'. No debe sorprender, entonces, que Pablo VI tuviera malos sentimientos hacia mi familia, y especialmente hacia mí mismo, hasta el punto de imponer mi renuncia como arzobispo antes de la edad fijada para la jubilación de los obispos. nombrado uno de sus favoritos imbuido de la filosofía política de 'apertura hacia el Este'". Este era el arzobispo Philippe Nguyen-Kim-Dien a quien el arzobispo Thuc había consagrado como obispo de Can-Tho horas después de que el arzobispo Drapier hubiera consagrado a Thuc, pero no lo hizo. No tengo el tiempo ni la energía para consagrar a los obispos y por eso lo dejé en manos de Thuc. Hasta aquí la dedicación por parte de Drapier. Era un hecho conocido que Dien saboteaba todo lo que Thuc emprendía, además de simpatizar con los comunistas. Pablo VI conocía precisamente este hecho. De hecho, los registros dicen que el arzobispo Thuc fue arzobispo de Hué de 1960 a 1968, cuando Pablo VI lo obligó a dimitir. Este último incorporó a Dien el 30 de septiembre de 1964 como arzobispo coadjutor de Hué. Dien fue el espía de Pablo VI para los Rojos de acuerdo con el agonizante aggiornamento del Pacto de Metz, un abominable acuerdo del que el propio Montini formó parte en agosto de 1962 con el cardenal Tisserant, simpatizante modernista y comunista, que firmó el patrimonio de la Iglesia y traicionó a Fátima. mensaje del cielo a los soviéticos, representado por Nikodim, metropolitano de la organización ortodoxa rusa dirigida por la KGB. Esta traición de la Santa Madre Iglesia al Kremlin se llevó a cabo en la casa del obispo de Metz, obispo John Schmitt, y resultó en el martirio de millones de personas por la fe detrás de la Cortina de Hierro, incluido Vietnam. Para la representación en el Concilio Vaticano II, la ciega franqueza de Roncalli fue unilateral en el hecho de que la iglesia conciliar regaló la tienda y los comunistas aceptaron gustosamente el engaño por todo lo que pudieron. Esta misma colusión es la que traicionó al arzobispo Thuc de la forma más amarga.
Su hermano mayor, Ngo-dinh-Khoi, ya había sido martirizado y enterrado vivo porque se negó a cooperar con el primer gobierno comunista de Vietnam. Ese trato era típico de la verdadera Ostpolitik de los comunistas. Sus otros tres hermanos, Ngo-dinh-Can, Ngo-dinh-Nhu y Ngo-dinh-Diem, eran todos católicos devotos. Mientras Thuc ascendía en las filas eclesiales, Diem ascendía en las filas gubernamentales. Cuando el rey fue derrocado, Diem fue elegido por el pueblo presidente de Vietnam del Sur, el padre de la República de Vietnam. Él, al igual que su hermano Thuc, también había comenzado en el seminario, pero no soportaba el pescado y por eso le dijeron que tenía que dejar el noviciado porque la alergia afectaría su ministerio. A pesar de la propaganda de las fuentes de noticias masónico-sionistas en Occidente, Diem fue amado por la gente y Vietnam floreció bajo el mismo sistema del que hablamos anteriormente en cooperación con los aldeanos. Como confirmó Su Excelencia, cuando los fondos para construir un seminario o un colegio no estaban disponibles, gracias a la mezquina avaricia del Vicario Apostólico de Saigón, el Obispo Dumortier, quien, a decir verdad, no jugó limpio, dándole a Thuc sólo lo que Dumortier no le dio. quiero, es decir, la escoria. A pesar de estos obstáculos, la Santa Sede a mediados de los años 50 pidió casi lo imposible: construir una universidad para su Vicariato. Thuc confió esta misión a Nuestro Señor y Su Santísima Madre y, a través de la providencia, fundó la Universidad de Dalat en una altiplanicie donde el clima era perpetuamente primaveral y había abundantes fuentes de agua, arroyos y propiedades planas muy por encima de los bosques húmedos. De hecho, aquí se pueden encontrar pinos, algo único para este clima.
Con el tiempo había ideado una magnífica universidad utilizando su ingenio y sus contactos. A lo largo de su vida nadie pudo jamás acusar a Su Excelencia de no ser una persona capaz de hacerlo. Era muy emprendedor, lo que le sería de gran utilidad cuando construyó un seminario en el centro de Saigón en un terreno baldío que se convirtió en un tesoro. Sólo después de su construcción Dumortier quiso algo que había regalado y no quiso tener nada que ver con ello originalmente. El asunto, que formaba parte integrante del derecho y tradición eclesiástica en las misiones en conjunto con los deseos de la Sagrada Congregación para la Propagación de la Fe al señalar que cuando se nombrara un obispo indígena el obispo misionero le entregaría aquellos instalaciones que ya estaban bien desarrolladas. Dumortier pensó diferente y le dio a Thuc lo que tenía. Thuc soportó el abuso hasta que Dumortier exigió demasiado. Luego llegó hasta Roma, donde Thuc fue exonerado y esto enfureció aún más a Dumortier, porque él era francés y Thuc era vietnamita. Por parte de Dumortier, esta victoria de Thuc en la Rota Sagrada provocó malos sentimientos que no sólo regresaron a Roma con rumores y mentiras, sino que se filtraron hasta los que subían. A pesar de estas dificultades, celos y robos contra el obispo Thuc, todavía trataba a todos como amigos. Esto, en pocas palabras, también podría explicar por qué fue utilizado por varios, tanto en sus días anteriores al Vaticano II como en sus días posteriores al Vaticano II. Confiaba en que la gente fuera honesta.
Fueron los sacerdotes y los feligreses quienes se ganaron el cariño de su pastor, el obispo Thuc, proporcionándole un viejo Citroën cuando vieron que la bicicleta prehistórica que le habían regalado no servía. Siguiendo el molde del Cura de Ars San Juan María Vianney, el obispo Thuc se aseguró de que sus sacerdotes lucharan por la santidad. Había solicitado un sacerdote adicional a Dumortier y este último le envió un suegro depredador. Sí, ya en aquel entonces los modernistas se habían infiltrado y estaban albergando a estos inútiles que tanto escandalizan a las almas. Thuc lo rechazó y lo envió de regreso. Él, a diferencia de todos los obispos modernistas de hoy, no toleraría a un sacerdote que causara escándalo, y mucho menos que devastara a los feligreses. Como escribió el Arzobispo en su autobiografía, eso no significaba que sus sacerdotes fueran santos - ni mucho menos, pero manejó cualquier discrepancia discretamente y ordenar retiros mensuales para sus sacerdotes desde las 7 am hasta el mediodía lo ayudó a mantenerlos en el buen camino. Fue una práctica sabia y prudente que continuó como arzobispo de Hué. Dijo la Santa Misa todas las mañanas y luego caminó hasta Phu-Cam, donde llevaba la Sagrada Comunión diaria a su querida madre anciana. Sus numerosos actos de caridad algún día se convertirán en leyenda a medida que se cuente su historia a más personas y se revelen muchos más detalles de su heroica caridad hacia familiares, amigos y enemigos.
Y hablando de enemigos, se estaban formando, tanto dentro del Vaticano tras el fallecimiento de Pío XII como desde el norte con la infiltración de los comunistas: el Vietcong. Aquí también la política se intensificó porque Juan XXIII ya era sensible a los comunistas y esto se demostró en los temores de la nueva Roma de que Diem fuera demasiado anticomunista. Debido a la Ostpolitik, otras órdenes religiosas estaban alerta para mantenerse alejadas del arzobispo Thuc, ya que su hermano era el presidente de Vietnam del Sur. Aquellos en la curia transfirieron estos temores y prejuicios a Giovanni Montini en el verano de 1963. En lugar de que Pablo VI se reuniera o escuchara al arzobispo Thuc. decidió acostarse con el francmasón declarado Henry Cabot Lodge, el embajador que había reemplazado al embajador pro-Diem, Fritz Nolting. Lo que básicamente fue aquí fue una connivencia de masones, modernistas y comunistas que colaboraban con objetivos que contradecían el Reino Social de Cristo. Desde entonces la agenda humanista ha sido la principal iniciativa de la Iglesia conciliar, de la misma manera que Benedicto XVI hoy llama a la paz en términos sincréticos que niegan el dogma de la fe.
A pesar de cualquier deficiencia que haya tenido Diem, siempre estuvo allí para ayudar a su hermano; su educación católica puso en perspectiva la preservación y propagación de la fe como máxima prioridad. No hace falta decir que esto fue algo que no cayó bien con los comunistas ni con la prensa y la maquinaria política francmasón-sionista occidental que estaban formulando una guerra para cubrir tanto a un floreciente cártel de drogas de opio crudo que jugaría un papel amargo en el embrutecimiento y adormecimiento de Estados Unidos y la oportunidad de capitalizar el botín de guerra de la Guerra de Corea se habían esfumado en 1954 y Estados Unidos necesitaba establecerse en el Lejano Oriente mientras reconstruía Japón. Debido al miedo a que China se fortalezca y a la idea errónea de que la democracia tiene todas las respuestas, habían elegido Vietnam cuando los franceses se retiraron cobardemente, lavándose las manos de todo el lío. Diem era el más estable y, con la recomendación del cardenal Francis Spellman, el presidente Dwight D. Eisenhower y la coalición estadounidense lo respaldaron contra Bao-Dai siempre que sirviera a sus intereses. Hasta el día de hoy, la mentalidad estadounidense no comprende la mentalidad oriental y ahí es donde, una y otra vez, los occidentales se meten en problemas. Gracias a la revolución en Roma y luego en Occidente con las costumbres y la moral, en los años 60 surgió la generación "yo". Muchos dicen que el fin de "Camelot" llegó con la muerte de John Fitzgerald Kennedy, pero él no era el Rey Arturo, más bien en la línea del Lotario Sir Lancelot o peor aún, muy posiblemente un Mordred. No, en realidad el verdadero fin de "Camelot", aunque en decadencia durante mucho tiempo, se produjo cinco años antes, con la muerte de Pío XII, el 9 de octubre de 1958.
No era Camelot lo que Diem intentaba mantener, sino el modo de vida de todos los vietnamitas. Entre un millón de huidos de los comunistas en el Norte, se incluyeron más de cien mil vietnamitas católicos romanos que ayudaron a establecer un refugio católico en Annam y más al sur. En el éxodo del norte también llegaron muchos budistas, ya que la mayoría de la ciudadanía era budista y, en ocasiones, Diem caminaba por una delgada línea para complacer a todos. Pero no era un sincretista y no ocultaba su catolicismo. El precedente ya se había sentado el 5 de junio de 1963, cuando se llevó a cabo una celebración improvisada para el regreso del Arzobispo Thuc de Roma durante el verano después de una Procesión del Corpus Christi con Su Excelencia oficiando. Teniendo en cuenta que Juan XXIII acababa de morir dos días antes, los católicos vietnamitas estaban de luto y, sin embargo, necesitaban expresar sus emociones. Las banderas católicas estaban por todas partes y Su Excelencia se sintió un poco avergonzado por todo esto en este tiempo de interregno, pero aceptó la adulación del pueblo, creyendo que unificaría a los vietnamitas. Sin embargo, anteriormente, por temor a una guerra religiosa, fue el propio Thuc quien convenció a los funcionarios locales para que prohibieran la exhibición de banderas budistas durante las festividades budistas. Una de las razones principales de este edicto fue que algunos usaban las banderas como ropa y asistían a misa con estas banderas budistas improvisadas. El Arzobispo en su autobiografía habló de la falta de ropa y esa fue una de las razones por las que algunos feligreses no asistieron a Misa. El ingenio triunfó porque habían usado las banderas de Francia para vestirse; los niños usaban el rojo como pantalones cortos, las niñas el azul como vestido y el blanco usado para velos y otras prendas. Cuando era necesario, estos últimos se teñían de negro. Algunos adoptaron el mismo concepto con la bandera budista, pero era obvio y, para Su Excelencia, era un sacrilegio llevar un símbolo pagano en presencia del Rey de reyes. Por lo tanto, la forma más conveniente de asegurarse de que no hubiera una gran cantidad de banderas budistas que confiscar para usarlas como ropa era no exhibirlas. El edicto fue aprobado y pocos pensaron mucho en ello hasta que se izaron las banderas católicas para celebrar el regreso de Thuc y rendir homenaje a Juan XXIII, ya que pocos de ellos sabían de la traición que había cometido Roncalli. La celebración en las calles de Vietnam del Sur duraría poco.
Prisionero de guerra
Desafortunadamente, esta espontaneidad católica aparentemente entusiasta sería contraproducente para el régimen de Diem debido a la infiltración comunista dentro de las filas budistas. El Vietcong de Ho Chi Minh conocía la defensa de la Fe Verdadera por parte de Diem y trató de acorralarlo en un rincón del que no pudiera escapar. Minh ya había eliminado al hermano de Ngo, Khoi. Los rojos planearon la oportunidad de celebrar una festividad budista y, cuando no se pudo izar ninguna bandera budista, algunos se rociaron con gasolina, al estilo de los bombarderos ѕυιcιdє de hoy. En lugar de ser percibidos como locos, la prensa occidental los vio como víctimas y la influencia de Diem comenzó a desmoronarse. Oh, el poder de la prensa: el cuarto poder masónico-sionista. Los intereses estadounidenses, con dos caras como siempre, conspiraron a espaldas de Diem para un golpe de estado por parte de sus propios generales del ARVN. Imagínese a Judas (Henry Cabot Lodge) yendo al Sanedrín (generales amotinados a espaldas de Diem) tratando de precisar el momento exacto del golpe en el que Diem sería capturado. Para ser justos, JFK había dado instrucciones a Lodge de que Diem y su familia no debían ser perjudicados sino expulsados del país en avión, pero ésta no era la intención del Sanedrín vietnamita ni de la CIA ni del entonces jefe de operaciones Lou Conein, un declarado anticatólico. Esto se llevó a cabo a pesar de las cautelosas objeciones de los altos oficiales de la CIA Sherman Kent, William Colby, el jefe de la División del Lejano Oriente, Huntington Sheldon, R. Jack Smith y el DCI John McCone. Estaban gravemente preocupados por las repercusiones y la inestabilidad que se produciría. Sabios consejos que no se siguieron. Y uno se pregunta hoy ¿por qué nadie en la CIA o el FBI sabe qué le hace la mano derecha a la izquierda y viceversa? Irak es una prueba de la incompetencia de la CIA. El golpe de Saigón es una prueba de su malicia. La fotografía de arriba a la izquierda fue tomada cinco días antes de la muerte de Diem en la celebración del Aniversario de la República de Vietnam mientras la Logia Masónica sonríe siniestramente, sabiendo que los días de Diem estaban contados. Los generales pagados con dinero ensangrentado por la CIA fueron, de izquierda a derecha en primer plano, encima del general Duong Van Minh, quien comandó el golpe de Estado y tomó el poder después, y que luego traicionó a sus propios hombres que estaban junto a él en la imagen: General Le Van Kim (centro) y el general Tran Van Don (extrema derecha). Los asesinatos fueron ordenados por el general Mai Huu Xuan. Así, eligieron el día de los muertos, la madrugada del 2 de noviembre, para acorralar a Diem y a su hermano Nhu, quienes, al ver la escritura en la pared, habían sido alertados en el último momento del golpe y escaparon al santuario de San Francisco Javier. Iglesia católica en la ciudad de Cholón donde hicieron las paces con Dios. Un destacado feligrés, un hombre de negocios chino, le aseguró que podía sacarlos del país y pidió una limusina para acompañarlos hasta el aeropuerto. En cambio, como Griff Ruby tan magníficamente detalló en el Capítulo Octavo de su excelente libro La Resurrección de la Iglesia Católica Romana, Una camioneta militar se detuvo y se llevó a los dos hermanos. Griff confirma lo que los docuмentos desclasificados del Pentágono, anteriormente ultrasecretos, también han verificado que uno de los enemigos de Diem, el Capitán Nhung, ordenó a la camioneta que se detuviera junto a un caballete del ferrocarril y, mientras el tren pasaba ruidosamente, Diem y Nhu fueron asesinados a tiros. Poco después, a su otro hermano Can se le prometió un salvoconducto fuera del país si se entregaba. Él también fue traicionado y murió frente a un pelotón de fusilamiento con un rosario en las manos e indicando a los fusileros que "apuntaran alto" apuntando a su corazón. Con el régimen de Ngo-dinh-Diem derrocado, Estados Unidos lamentaría ese día porque tres semanas después Kennedy también estaría muerto en Dallas. Lo que Estados Unidos había permitido y alentado era similar a lo que sucedió en Cuba. Se deshicieron de Baptista sólo para conseguir un Castro. Difícilmente habrá progreso, especialmente en lugar del hecho de que Lyndon Baines Johnson -el perfecto y sórdido homólogo de Giovanni Montini en su falta de integridad y confianza- llevaría a Estados Unidos a una guerra sangrienta y, como podemos ver ahora, sin sentido, en la que Estados Unidos, en efecto, cuando finalmente se contabilizaron los resultados, perdidos a costa de más de 60.000 vidas estadounidenses y que, diez años más tarde, en 1974, venderían a los vietnamitas al comunismo en -dónde si no- París, donde el presidente Richard Nixon y Henry Kissinger, golpeados por la disensión , cedió. Tanto Estados Unidos como los modernistas de la Iglesia traicionaron a la gente. ¡Ah, sí, todos saluden el aggiornamento y la democracia!
Mientras tanto, en Roma, el arzobispo Thuc todavía asistía al Concilio Vaticano II, que en aquel momento sin duda le salvó la vida. Sin embargo, cuando descubrió lo que había sucedido y cómo fue desviado por aquellos que, se podría pensar, le darían el pésame, se dio cuenta de que era un hombre sin país. También lo fue la franca Madame Nhu, viuda de Ngo-dinh-Nhu. Ella había estado a la vanguardia de un movimiento moral en la defensa y promoción de la cultura católica que muchos equipararon con lo que las hermanas Trung - Trung-trac y Trung-schi habían inspirado en la historia vietnamita cuando estimularon a los vietnamitas a resistir a la dinastía Han de China. de invadir Vietnam hace casi 2000 años. Madame Nhu había hecho mucho para fomentar la Acción Católica como esposa del hermano de Thuc, quien era jefe de Can Lao: la Policía Secreta y los Movimientos Políticos. Había trabajado para prohibir todo aborto, anticonceptivos y ocasiones públicas que condujeran a la tentación, como los salones de baile, las peleas de animales, los concursos de belleza, etc. Más importante aún, y una de las razones por las que fue blanco de difamación fue porque había tenido éxito. en el cierre de casas de prostitución y fumaderos de opio. Menos de un mes antes había declarado públicamente lo que sabemos hoy: "No sé por qué no agradamos a los estadounidenses. ¿Es porque el mundo está bajo un hechizo llamado liberalismo? Su propio público, aquí en Estados Unidos, no es tan anti- Comunista como el nuestro en Vietnam." Tal como lo había hecho la prensa sionista-masónica con otro católico una década antes, el senador Joseph McCarthy, cuando advirtió contra el comunismo, restaron importancia a la amenaza roja y trataron de ridiculizar y vilipendiar a Madame Nhu como la "Dama Dragón". Una cosa es segura: no tuvo miedo de decir lo que pensaba. Después del asesinato de su marido y su cuñado, voló a Roma desde Los Ángeles, donde había estado durante una gira de relaciones públicas con la verdadera intención de exponer -en una gira por todo el país- las atrocidades que Kennedy había estado permitiendo en Vietnam, pero Estados Unidos respondió con el golpe. Al enterarse de la muerte de su amado, afirmó a la prensa: "Quien tiene a los estadounidenses como aliados no necesita enemigos". Como podemos ver, desde entonces tenía razón, incluida su predicción de que las cosas sólo se volverían más sombrías en Vietnam y que los problemas de Estados Unidos apenas comenzaban en el Lejano Oriente. En años posteriores se haría eco de la inutilidad de la locura de los modernistas cuando dijo: "Si uno no tiene valor para denunciar, si uno se inclina ante la locura y la estupidez, ¿cómo puede uno esperar hacer frente a los demás males de la humanidad explotados en de la misma manera por los comunistas? Evidentemente hablaba tanto de política como de religión. Los despistados le preguntarían si alguna vez había oído hablar del "diálogo", porque ese parece ser la respuesta a la continua degradación de la sociedad actual y al abandono del Reino Social de Jesucristo, Rey de todas las naciones. Inmediatamente después del golpe, Madame Nhu y su hija volaron inmediatamente a Roma para estar con su cuñado, el arzobispo Thuc, presente en el Consejo, y donde su hermano menor, Ngo-din-Luyen, que entonces se desempeñaba como diplomático vietnamita en Inglaterra, voló desde Londres. también. Una vez reunidos, el arzobispo Thuc intentó asegurar a los restos de su familia que todo estaría bien, pero él lo sabía.
No sólo la pérdida de la mayor parte de su familia, sino también la pérdida del sensus Catholicus en el concilio le preocupaba mucho. Es interesante notar que en el mismo momento en que se enteró del destino de sus hermanos, estaba involucrado en el esquema conciliar del papel de la Santísima Madre en la Iglesia como Madre de la Iglesia. Este título y honor apenas pasó y los progresistas perdieron por sólo 40 votos, 1.114 placet (quiere) contra 1.074 contra non placet. Intuitivamente, con el corazón tan humanamente dolorido, el arzobispo Thuc pudo ver la escritura en el muro conciliar. Incluso nuestra Santísima Madre no fue inmune a la deconstrucción de la Iglesia de su divino Hijo. También estuvo cerca de la angustia espiritual.
Respecto a la participación de Thuc, cabe señalar aquí en defensa de Su Excelencia lo siguiente. Durante la primera parte del Concilio, cuando Roncalli todavía estaba vivo, se habían invitado ideas y él había ofrecido algunas descabelladas que para la mente occidental podrían parecer extrañas, pero considerando que era parte del flujo y que todos estaban ofreciendo sus dos centavos, racionalizó que sus ideas orientales eran algo que podía sugerir como voz cuando se le preguntara, y el hecho de que después del concilio nunca volvió a abordar el tema, sus ideas radicales de las que habló en el concilio pueden ubicarse en el contexto de la época. ¿Hay alguien por ahí que haya dicho cosas en algún momento de su vida que, en retrospectiva, se retractaría si hubiera pensado más en ello? Podemos imaginarlo allí e intentando compensar el tiempo que le ha quitado a su rebaño en Hué. ¿Cómo podría justificar eso ante su gente? Por lo tanto, probablemente sintió que debía hablar. Otro punto interesante es que era un oriental en un mundo occidental. Reinaron la confusión y la coerción. A esto se suma el hecho de que pocos sabían latín, lo que hizo que muchos votaran sobre cosas de las que realmente no tenían idea y lo consideraban más bien un juego de dardos. Con una actitud tan arrogante, la iglesia conciliar forjó sus comienzos, porque para estos modeladores de la historia nada era sagrado y gobernaban los progresistas, encabezados por los cardenales Suenens y Marty, ayudados por la mentalidad hegeliana de hombres como Teilhard de Chardin, Henri de Lubac, Karl Rahner. , Eduard Schillebeeckx, Hans Kung, Yves Congar y un joven progresista llamado Joseph Ratzinger.
Thuc sintió aún más la traición cuando Montini no solo no le permitió regresar a su amada Sede de Hué, sino que el hombre que había tratado de socavarlo a lo largo de su obispado en Hué: el obispo Philippe Nguyen-Kim-Dien fue nombrado arzobispo coadjutor. de Hué en 1964. Una vez concluido el Consejo, Thuc era un hombre sin patria. Montini lo dejó solo y se instaló con el pastor de una iglesia en Luxemburgo. Pronto surgieron los celos cuando el pastor se dio cuenta de que Thuc era más popular en el confesionario y cuando un penitente buscó al arzobispo durante la misa para escuchar su confesión, el confesionario más cercano era el del pastor. Thuc, sin pensar en el protocolo sino sólo en absolver a un penitente, escuchó la confesión de la mujer. Posteriormente, el pastor criticó a Su Excelencia por atreverse a utilizar el confesionario del pastor. Habla de mezquindad. La situación empeoró cuando en un día abrasador de verano, el Arzobispo regresó del convento de las Hermanas para darse una muy necesaria ducha y el párroco no lo dejó. Esto fue el colmo para el apacible prelado vietnamita. Ese fue el trato que recibiría Thuc en Occidente.
Sin embargo, le ofrecieron refugio con los monjes cistercienses en la abadía de Casamari, fundada por el santo San Bernardo de Claraval y donde, a finales de los años 1960, había mucho lugar porque las vocaciones eran muy pocas. ¡No es de extrañar! El Vaticano II se había encargado de eso. Se convirtió en el confesor favorito de los monjes y en popular entre las 5.000 almas de la parroquia adjunta a la Abadía. Permaneció allí 15 meses y las cosas fueron bien hasta que el abad fue destituido debido a una controvertida pintura de desnudo en el monasterio que Thuc temía que estuviera asociada con él porque su nombre aparecía cerca de la pintura. Así, en estricta confidencialidad, había escrito al Abad de la Orden por miedo al escándalo y pidiendo que se borrara su nombre o se retirara el cuadro. Estaba pasando por todos los canales adecuados y, sin embargo, fue saboteado por aquellos a quienes apelaba. En lugar de observar esta confianza, como la iglesia conciliar ha demostrado desde entonces que no pueden decir la verdad, traicionaron la misma confianza de Thuc y Thuc fue injustamente etiquetado como un constante "alborotador" en todos los niveles del Vaticano.
Al convertirse en persona non grata en la Abadía y en su propio país, cuando Dien fue nombrado arzobispo permanente de Hué y a Thuc se le negó una visa para regresar, diseñada por el propio Montini, ¿hay alguna duda de que Thuc se sintió traicionado? No se le concedió nada más que el título inútil de Obispo Titular de Bulla Regia, dondequiera que esté, sintió aún más el dolor cuando hubo una gran celebración en la Universidad que fundó en Dalat y ni una sola mención de su nombre. Como escribió el Arzobispo: "El nombre del fundador de la universidad nunca fue mencionado, ni siquiera una vez, porque su nombre desagrada a los actuales ocupantes del Vaticano. Bien está lo que bien acaba. Establecí la universidad en obediencia a la Vaticano de otros días. Dios me había ayudado. A Él todo honor y toda gloria por los siglos de los siglos. Amén." Al menos el pueblo había reunido los cuerpos ensangrentados de Diem y Can y les había dado un entierro católico apropiado con un monumento especial construido donde son honrados hasta el día de hoy no como un régimen corrupto, sino como uno que la historia, la historia verdadera, no la historia revisionista, ha exonerado. . Así también su hermano Ngo-dinh-Thuc debería ser totalmente exonerado y elevado a la verdadera posición que merece en la historia de la Restauración de la Santa Madre Iglesia y en los anales de la historia vietnamita.
Pero nunca regresaría a su tierra natal. Abandonado a valerse por sí solo en Italia, el arzobispo Thuc buscó en el obispo de Casamari un lugar donde ofrecer sus servicios y recibir alojamiento. En lugar de llevarlo a la casa del obispo, lo empeñó en una parroquia pobre en la colina con pocos feligreses para quedarse allí, ya que ni siquiera el pastor vivía cerca de la iglesia. Mientras el pastor vivía bien, Thuc se vio obligado a ocuparse de sus propias necesidades. Aquí había un destacado prelado bajo la dirección de un sencillo sacerdote rural. Habla de la humildad de Vianney. Sin embargo, Thuc aceptó esta cruz y la convirtió en triunfo al ganarse la reputación de estar siempre disponible para la confesión y el mayor consuelo para los enfermos y las familias agrícolas de la zona. Fue un verdadero pastor incluso cuando le habían quitado su rebaño. Fue en esta iglesia de Arpino, en el centro de Italia, donde finalmente se introdujo el pesebre navideño, algo diseñado por primera vez por San Francisco de Asís pero que evidentemente nunca llegó a Arpino, para la vigilia navideña de 1975. Mientras él cautivaba a los niños con las hermosas figuras Al terminar el cuento de Navidad, alguien llamó a la puerta.
Fue un golpe que mancharía para siempre la reputación de este venerable arzobispo vietnamita. Sin embargo, en retrospectiva, hay que mirarlo todo en perspectiva. El enviado era de Econe, un tal padre Revaz, que había enseñado Derecho Canónico en el seminario de la Sociedad San Pío X bajo la dirección del arzobispo Marcel Lefebvre. En la misma línea que el anuncio de cereales Life transmitido en 1971, cuando los niños del comercial le dieron el plato de cereal a "Mikey" porque "Mikey odia todo", pero luego de terminar el plato todos exclamaron: "¡A Mikey le gusta!", Así también Lefebvre empeñó las consagraciones de Thuc a través de su antiguo canónigo Revaz, al estilo Pilato. De lo contrario, le habría advertido a Thuc que no hiciera las consagraciones. Pero Thuc fue golpeado por la autoridad de Revaz procedente de Lefebvre, a quien el arzobispo había conocido de Écone, en Nochebuena con el mensaje de Revaz: "Excelencia, la Santísima Virgen me envía para llevaros inmediatamente al corazón de España para rendirle un servicio. Mi coche está esperando en la puerta de la rectoría y saldremos enseguida para estar allí el día de Navidad". ¿Qué podría hacer Su Excelencia? Pudo haber dicho que no y regresar con los niños, pero como venía de Revaz, recomendado por Lefebvre, y se invocaba a Nuestra Señora como quien solicitaba su presencia, respondió: "Si este es un servicio exigido por la Santísima Virgen , Estoy dispuesto a seguirte hasta los confines de la tierra". Disculpándose, partió para aquel fatídico viaje a la región del Palmar de Troya en España.
En este pueblo en las afueras de Sevilla, el vidente de las supuestas apariciones de la Santísima Madre, Clemente Domínguez y Gómez, supuestamente había recibido mensajes de que Nuestra Señora se estaba apareciendo y quería que se ordenaran más sacerdotes. La razón por la que se seleccionó a Thuc es probablemente una serie de restas. Lefebvre no lo haría, por lo que Thuc fue el siguiente. Algunos, que no son favorables a "una cuм Wojtyla" y ahora a "una cuм Benedictis", se preguntan por qué Lefebvre no advirtió a Thuc. Preguntan si fue así que Thuc podría servir como un posible "conejillo de indias" o "cordero de sacrificio", por así decirlo, para ver cómo respondería la Roma moderna y darle a Lefebvre una idea de hasta dónde podría llegar en el futuro en materia de ordenaciones y consagraciones. La razón de esta línea de pensamiento es el hecho de que Lefebvre no advirtió a Thuc de antemano sobre el Palmar de Troya, aunque sabía que su antiguo "empleado" - el canónigo de San Mauricio - se había unido al grupo del Palmar de Troya, y el fundador de La FSSPX estaba temerosa de las apariciones. Ésa es una de las razones por las que algunos piensan que Thuc fue creado. Griff Ruby ofrece otro escenario posible: "Una cosa que se sabe sobre el padre Revas es que, aunque había sido profesor en Econe, cuando Palmar de Troya estaba empezando ya había dejado Econe (quizás de manera bastante amistosa, en vista de su posterior capacidad de acercarse al Arzobispo Lefebvre) y se convirtió en miembro formal de la secta Palmar de Troya. No hay evidencia de que Lefebvre quisiera tenderle una trampa a Thuc, sino más bien algo más como un "desprecio" para hacer que el Padre Revas se fuera dándole le dio un nombre y una dirección que Lefebvre esperaba que fueran un callejón sin salida para Revas ("Dejemos que Thuc responda a estos idiotas; tiene tiempo y paciencia"). Fue el padre Revas quien le pidió a Thuc, por iniciativa propia, cualquier autorización de Lefebvre que simplemente no tenía".
Lo que es un hecho es que Thuc, hasta ese momento, no había sido tan visible a pesar de su fama junto a su hermano Diem, mientras que Lefebvre había sido muy visible para todos como "uno de los pocos obispos que se resistía a los cambios". La falta de conocimiento de Thuc sobre estas apariciones, su simple fe en la posibilidad de que fuera verdaderamente María la que se estaba apareciendo, y el hecho de que fue engañado por quienes buscaban su ayuda, proporciona una prueba evidente de que no se puede culpar a Thuc por estas ordenaciones de la Orden Carmelita de la Santa Faz y las consagraciones posteriores a las que lo convencieron unas semanas después, el 11 de enero de 1976, cuando consagró a Clemente Domínguez y Gómez, así como a Manuel Alonso Corral, Camilo Estevez, Michael Donnelly y Francis Sandler OSB (Francis Fox) . No se dio cuenta de que le habían tendido una trampa. Sin embargo, sabía que tendría problemas con Pablo VI, a quien todavía reconocía en ese momento, sólo sintiendo que Pablo VI lo había vendido a él, a su hermano y al resto de su familia, como se observó cómo Montini intentó comprar el silencio del Arzobispo en 1970 como contado al padre Michael Louis Guerard des Lauriers y docuмentado en el Apéndice de su In Memoriam for the Archbishop publicado en la edición del 1 de agosto de 2002 de "Catholic". Efectivamente, el Vaticano se enteró de la consagración y en julio de 1976 fue formalmente excomulgado. Habla de la olla que llama negra a la tetera. Sin embargo, Thuc, el pastor obediente, se arrepintió cuando se dio cuenta de que había sido engañado. Así fue reinstalado el 17 de septiembre de 1976. Regresó a Arpino hasta que una familia vietnamita lo invitó a establecerse en Toulon, Francia. Sintiendo nostalgia y no poder regresar a su amada patria, esta era la mejor opción y aceptó la oferta.
Rechazó públicamente las consagraciones de aquellos en el Palmar de Troya cuando Domínguez se proclamó Papa Gregorio XVI tras la muerte de Pablo VI en 1978. Pero a medida que pasaron los años, su resentimiento creció hacia los modernistas que hicieron todo lo posible para encubrir la verdad, ya fuera Era doctrina o qué les había sucedido a sus hermanos y por qué no podía regresar a su amado Hue, y que tres millones de vietnamitas habían huido de su amada tierra hacia América, con cientos de miles pereciendo en el Mar de China Meridional en lo que se llamaría el " éxodo de los 'barqueros'." Ahorcado en Europa, el arzobispo se dedicó aún más a estudiar los cambios desde el Vaticano II y se dio cuenta de que la Iglesia conciliar no era católica de ninguna forma. Fue durante este tiempo que reconsagró a varios que acudieron a él que habían sido consagrados en la iglesia católica antigua pero que querían ser parte del Movimiento Católico Tradicional. Así consagró condicionalmente a hombres como Claude Nanta de Torrini, así como a Roger Kozik y Michel Fernández, quienes, como Palmar de Troya, lo habían engañado. ¿Aprendería alguna vez?
Abogado de la verdad
Recuerde, él era un alma confiada. En ese momento se dio cuenta de que había sido utilizado por todos los que se le habían acercado y comenzó a decir no a aquellos que ahora sabía que no eran dignos. Así, con gran discreción ejerció su deber apostólico en los tres siguientes que consagró, los últimos que consagraría. Dos de esos hombres servirían como punto de apoyo para la auténtica sucesión apostólica en el Movimiento Tradicional actual en lo que comúnmente se llama los sucesores de la "línea Thuc". Estas consagraciones tuvieron lugar en los meses de mayo y octubre de María, primero el 7 de mayo de 1981, cuando el Arzobispo Thuc consagró al mismo organizador y promotor de la Intervención Ottaviani que lo buscó: el Padre Michel Louis Guérard des Lauriers, OP. Pocos se dan cuenta de que el Cardenal Alfredo Ottaviani sólo escribió la Introducción y fue des Lauriers quien, con un equipo de teólogos tradicionales, compuso la mayor parte del informe. P. Des Lauriers se había dado cuenta con el paso de los años de que ya no podía soportar la nueva Iglesia y sus abominables cambios. Entendió muy bien la profecía del motu proprio del Papa León XIII de que "el pastor será herido, las ovejas esparcidas". El "misterio de iniquidad" del que habla San Pablo en 2 Tesalonicenses 2:7 efectivamente se había manifestado. Este dominico de gran prestigio no se quedó atrás, ya que había enseñado en la Universidad Pontificia y había sido uno de los confesores de Pío XII. Fue un reconocido teólogo de la Iglesia y un devoto maestro de todas las Verdades y Tradiciones de la Santa Madre Iglesia. Su descontento con los conciliaristas lo llevó a enseñar en Éconé hasta que tuvo que dimitir también allí debido a las vacilaciones del arzobispo Lefebvre y a los desagradables juegos que estaban jugando Montini y luego Karol Wojtyla. Se dio cuenta de que un verdadero Papa no podía enseñar el error y estos hombres tenían herejías en todos sus matices. Así se dio cuenta ante Dios de que la silla estaba vacante. Al darse cuenta también de la invalidez del nuevo rito de ordenación y consagración de Pablo VI, vio la necesidad de una verdadera sucesión de obispos y recurrió al arzobispo Thuc como un sucesor válido para mantener la verdadera línea. Debido a sus credenciales, Thuc sabía que era el candidato ideal y así, el 7 de mayo de 1981, el arzobispo consagró felizmente a obispo des Lauriers. También fue una limpieza, por así decirlo, por parte de Su Excelencia para deshacerse de su sistema la única vez que participó en el Novus Ordo, lo que hizo el Jueves Santo de 1981 por legado del Obispo de Toulon. No hace falta decir que fue la única vez que tuvo y nunca más. Se sintió sucio, violado y pidió perdón a su Señor y Salvador.
Una cosa a tener en cuenta aquí, y se ha docuмentado varias veces en cuanto a la autenticidad de la consagración de Des Lauriers, así como de las dos siguientes, es un hecho totalmente separado de las consagraciones, pero dice mucho no sólo sobre la validez, sino también sobre el reconocimiento. de la postura sedevacantista de la Iglesia. Si el ex confesor del Papa Pío XII, un renombrado teólogo y, como se ha dicho, el más brillante de los que presentaron las verdades infrangibles a Pablo VI con la Intervención Ottaviani, creía que la cátedra estaba vacante para los Papas conciliares, había abdicado por su herejía pública de desviarse de la Fe, ¿cómo pueden los apologistas tradicionales, tan cegados por la evidencia de que los Papas conciliares no son católicos, justificar que no fue una herejía entonces y una herejía aún más flagrante hoy? Una herejía que ha continuado sin cesar y ha empeorado mucho. ? No importa que hoy en día sea aceptado como algo normal por la población en general, que se ha quedado tonta. San Agustín lo dijo muy claramente: "El bien es el bien aunque nadie lo haga, y el mal es el mal aunque todos lo hagan".
Más tarde, en 1981, mientras estaba en Munich, Alemania, el Arzobispo Thuc fue contactado por dos sacerdotes de Trento formados por el Padre Moisés Carmona, Joaquín Sáenz Arriaga y Adolfo Zamora en México, quienes se dieron cuenta de que la necesidad de transmitir las Verdades y Tradiciones de la Fe significaba que se necesitarían más sacerdotes. era necesaria y eso implicaba obispos católicos auténticos, válidos e intransigentes. Los padres Carmona y Zamora viajaron a Munich, donde el obispo Carmona docuмenta lo siguiente:
El 17 de octubre, el padre Zamora y yo fuimos consagrados por el arzobispo Thuc en una catacuмba virtual, con sólo dos distinguidos médicos como testigos. Ambos éramos conscientes de las furiosas tormentas de protesta que vendrían, pero las palabras de nuestro Divino Maestro nos animaron: 'Lloraréis y lamentaréis, pero el mundo se regocijará; y estaréis tristes, pero vuestra tristeza se convertirá en alegría' (San Juan, 16: 20).
A nuestro regreso a México comenzaron los ataques. Algunos decían, sin fundamento alguno, que nuestras consagraciones eran inválidas porque estábamos consagrados con el nuevo rito; otros, más serios, dijeron que, basándose en los cánones 953 y 2370, las consagraciones eran válidas pero ilícitas, y que en consecuencia fuimos suspendidos. [Ed. nota: Se ha docuмentado que el Arzobispo Thuc utilizó el rito tradicional de consagración episcopal - no el nuevo rito - cuando consagró a los obispos Carmona y Zamora.]
Como puede verse, nuestros detractores ignoraban el axioma Qui cuм regula ambulat, tuto ambulat: "Quien camina con la regla, camina con seguridad". Deberían recordar, si lo habían olvidado, que el Papa Gregorio IX dejó once reglas y Bonifacio VIII ochenta y ocho para la verdadera interpretación de la ley. Estas reglas, según el canon 20, pueden suplir el defecto de la regla en un caso particular, como en el caso que nos encontramos actualmente. En consecuencia, la cuarta regla de Gregorio IX dice expresamente: Propter necessitatem, illicitum efficitur licitum - "La necesidad hace lícito lo que es ilícito".
Se puede ver fácilmente la necesidad de tener obispos y sacerdotes católicos y la falta de verdaderos sacramentos; por tanto, fuimos válida y lícitamente consagrados.
La regla 88 de Bonifacio VIII también establece expresamente Certum est quod is committit in legem qui legem verbum complectens contra legis nititur: "Es cierto que peca contra la regla quien se adhiere a la letra y deja de lado el espíritu". Por tanto, es injusto imputar al legislador el deseo de perjudicar gravemente a la Iglesia durante una vacante de la Santa Sede al prohibir la ordenación de obispos y sacerdotes y la administración de los sacramentos a los fieles que los soliciten.
Por lo tanto, al aceptar la consagración episcopal del Arzobispo Thuc, nos hemos basado en estas reglas, conscientes y seguros de que, dadas las circunstancias en las que vivimos, las consagraciones son válidas y lícitas. También somos conscientes y seguros de que habríamos pecado si, apoyándonos en la letra [de la ley], hubiésemos rechazado las consagraciones, habiendo sólo un obispo católico que ahora puede encontrarse para transmitir la sucesión episcopal.
Los dos testigos de estas consagraciones fueron el Dr. Kurt Hiller y el Dr. Eberhard Heller y ambos testificaron bajo juramento que Su Excelencia no sólo utilizó el Rito Tradicional, sino que estaba en su sano juicio y cuerpo porque había muchos que intentaban difamar al Arzobispo Thuc. que "no estaba en su sano juicio", que "Thuc era un chiflado" y otras acusaciones difamatorias. Se proporciona una transcripción de su propia puño y letra sobre la autenticidad de estas consagraciones en Transcripción de la consagración episcopal de los obispos Carmona y Zamora de Thuc. Baste decir que Mons. des Laurier, Mons. Louis Vezelis, OFM y varios sacerdotes tradicionales han verificado también que el Arzobispo era plenamente consciente y que cualquier duda sobre las insinuaciones de que no tenía el control de sus facultades mentales son infundadas o que utilizado alguna vez el nuevo rito de ordenación o consagración. Este autor, leyendo las palabras de Thuc en su autobiografía escrita en The Seraph en 1982 y 1983 mientras era huésped del obispo V
-
Can I ask you if you have the magazine or the original place where Monse Guerard published this? https://web.archive.org/web/20080305062917/http://catholic.shrineofsaintjude.net/homec081.html
-
I don't care for the thread title. He's owed a certain amount of respect as an Archbishop of the Catholic Church, one who was highly trusted by Popes Pius XI and Pius XII.
So it should at least refer to him as Archbishop Thuc, and putting the term "Heel" in the same expression is offensive and disrespectful.
At best, one could argue that Archbishop Thuc made some imprudent judgments.
-
changed the thread title with this post
-
He's owed a certain amount of respect as an Archbishop of the Catholic Church, one who was highly trusted by Popes Pius XI and Pius XII.
Archbishop Thuc, just like Archbishop Lefebvre, will always be a hero to me. In fact, I proudly belong to a parish in which its bishop and priests are descended from the Thuc line. My bishop was consecrated in 1977 and even the heretical Novus Ordo Church recognizes that my bishop's consecration, priests' ordinations and parish's sacraments are 100% valid. Therefore if anyone badmouths either Archbishop Thuc or Archbishop Lefebvre and also considers himself or herself a Traditional Catholic then shame on that person. Both Archbishops are and will always be heroes of the faith.
-
Archbishop Thuc, just like Archbishop Lefebvre, will always be a hero to me. In fact, I proudly belong to a parish in which its bishop and priests are descended from the Thuc line. My bishop was consecrated in 1977 and even the heretical Novus Ordo Church recognizes that my bishop's consecration, priests' ordinations and parish's sacraments are 100% valid. Therefore if anyone badmouths either Archbishop Thuc or Archbishop Lefebvre and also considers himself or herself a Traditional Catholic then shame on that person. Both Archbishops are and will always be heroes of the faith.
I'm very curious who this Bishop is?
-
I'm very curious who this Bishop is?
Yeah, I'm curious too, since the only consecrations +Thuc himself did prior to the early 1980s were the Palmar ones ... and those were in 1976, not 1977.
-
Yeah, I'm curious too, since the only consecrations +Thuc himself did prior to the early 1980s were the Palmar ones ... and those were in 1976, not 1977.
I looked it up and +Thuc did a conditional of Laborie in 1977 and there's another one that someone claims to have been consecrated but there's no evidence for.
-
I'm very curious who this Bishop is?
My bishop is Bishop Jean Marie Kozik who was consecrated by Archbishop Thuc in 1977.
-
My bishop is Bishop Jean Marie Kozik who was consecrated by Archbishop Thuc in 1977.
OK. Does he somehow profess to be in union with Rome? I've struggled to understand his position. He's a bit of an enigma to me, but I like him overall. I saw that his nuns were involved in some "scandal" in Chicago where they were requesting donations for a new heating system, while spending a couple million dollars on buying some new property. I want to like this man (I like his emphasis on serving the poor), but something doesn't seem quite right. Also I didn't see him on the Boyle list when I looked him up. Was he already a priest in 1977 or was he also ordained? And the date I saw was 1978 for his consecration.
-
OK. Does he somehow profess to be in union with Rome? I've struggled to understand his position. He's a bit of an enigma to me, but I like him overall. I saw that his nuns were involved in some "scandal" in Chicago where they were requesting donations for a new heating system, while spending a couple million dollars on buying some new property. I want to like this man (I like his emphasis on serving the poor), but something doesn't seem quite right. Also I didn't see him on the Boyle list when I looked him up. Was he already a priest in 1977 or was he also ordained? And the date I saw was 1978 for his consecration.
He's on the Boyle list. Need to look under alleged consecrations Thuc consecrations. He was consecrated by Laborie, and then conditionally by Thuc.
.
-
He's on the Boyle list. Need to look under alleged consecrations Thuc consecrations. He was consecrated by Laborie, and then conditionally by Thuc.
.
Hmmm. OK, I didn't see him on there. Was he a priest before his consecration?
-
Yeah, I'm curious too, since the only consecrations +Thuc himself did prior to the early 1980s were the Palmar ones ... and those were in 1976, not 1977.
I’m very curious too.
EDIT…..answered above.
-
I’m very curious too.
EDIT…..answered above.
I think he may have been nested under Laborie in the Boyle chart ... but I haven't looked again. I can only access Boyle from certain computers because their SSL cypher suite is somewhat outdated.
-
I think he may have been nested under Laborie in the Boyle chart
What is the Boyle chart/Boyle list? The reason why Bishop Jean Marie Kozik is now my Bishop is because when the Novus Ordo diocese sold off my Church to an Evangelical Protestant group back in 2010, it was his Fraternite Notre Dame which bought it in 2020, restored it and now thanks to them, it's now again a Traditional Catholic Church (for the first time since the 1960s). I will always be grateful to them for saving my Church that the diocese deliberately threw away.
-
What is the Boyle chart/Boyle list?
http://www.tboyle.net/Catholicism/Thuc_Consecrations.html
I'm curious to hear more about them. This Bishop Jean Marie claims to have had visions. Do you find them credible? What is his theological position? Sedevacantist, R&R, something else? He's built up a very large organization. Do you know if he was ordained a priest before being consecrated by +Thuc? Does he have docuмentation or other evidence to back up his consecration and his ordination?
Looks (from Boyle) that he was consecrated by +Puga, who was in turn consecrated by +Thuc. With Clemente doing consecrations, I'd be concerned about him botching them, because Clemente had absolutely no training, but +Puga was a pre-Vatican II priest and was more likely to have correctly followed the consecration rite. But then in the other section it shows him as consecrated by Corral (perhaps both did it?), and the conditionally consecrated by +Thuc in 1978.
-
I am not making a judgment on anyone, I just want to know if anyone knows the original official site or magazine where Bishop Guerard published this:
https://web.archive.org/web/20080305062917/http://catholic.shrineofsaintjude.net/homec081.html