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Author Topic: THREE living bishops consecrated before death of Pius XII  (Read 12772 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: THREE living bishops consecrated before death of Pius XII
« Reply #40 on: April 29, 2018, 12:56:18 PM »
Quote from: 2Vermont on April 27, 2018, 07:07:30 AM
Can you elaborate on the bolded?  Are you saying that it is possible that those bishops of the Thuc line could in fact have jurisdiction?

I think that it's possible that at least the first-line Thuc bishops have real (non-supplied) jurisdiction, i.e. those consecrated directly by him.  Not sure if it's communicable to the bishops consecrated in turn by these.  I don't know that anyone has ever produced a copy of the Thuc mandatum but if it's similar to known copies issued to others in Communist territories, they were given all authority short of what was reserved by Divine Law to the Pope himself.  Not only that, but Thuc and the bishops he consecrated would not have been excommunicated by Canon Law for doing consecrations without papal mandate ... since he had a mandate.
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Offline Clemens Maria

Re: THREE living bishops consecrated before death of Pius XII
« Reply #41 on: April 29, 2018, 03:03:41 PM »
Quote from: Ladislaus on April 26, 2018, 07:34:51 PM
Indeed, the jurisdictional hierarchy has pretty much come to an end ... which according to nearly all theologians would entail a defection of the Church.
Please provide a few quotes or citations.  They must be easy to come by since “nearly all theologians” have addressed this topic.  I must have bad reading comprehension since I couldn’t find anything about this in the theological manuals (Van Noort, Wilhelm and Scannell, Parente, etc).  John Lane would agree with you on this point but when Fr Cekada asked him for quotes to prove it (during debate on Ignis Ardens in 2012), he provided a quote from W&S which turned out to be at best ambiguous.  It certainly wasn’t clear that they were intending to say that the jurisdictional hierarchy (the ordinaries) must have at least one living office holder at all times.  If you think about it a bit, it doesn’t really make a lot of sense.  What other institutions would have a similar requirement?
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Offline Clemens Maria

Re: THREE living bishops consecrated before death of Pius XII
« Reply #42 on: April 29, 2018, 03:14:33 PM »
Quote from: Ladislaus on April 29, 2018, 12:56:18 PM
I think that it's possible that at least the first-line Thuc bishops have real (non-supplied) jurisdiction, i.e. those consecrated directly by him.  Not sure if it's communicable to the bishops consecrated in turn by these.  I don't know that anyone has ever produced a copy of the Thuc mandatum but if it's similar to known copies issued to others in Communist territories, they were given all authority short of what was reserved by Divine Law to the Pope himself.  Not only that, but Thuc and the bishops he consecrated would not have been excommunicated by Canon Law for doing consecrations without papal mandate ... since he had a mandate.
A few years ago someone posted an image of it here.  I don’t have time to search for it now.  I saved a copy of the image on my laptop.  If need be, I can upload it later.  However, there’s a big caveat.  The source of the information was a palmerian line group.  So not exactly a unassailable witness.  Still, I’m not sure why they would feel the need to make something like that up or why they would be motivated to forge a docuмent like that.
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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: THREE living bishops consecrated before death of Pius XII
« Reply #43 on: April 29, 2018, 05:51:41 PM »
Quote from: Clemens Maria on April 29, 2018, 03:03:41 PM
Please provide a few quotes or citations.  They must be easy to come by since “nearly all theologians” have addressed this topic.

By nearly all theologians, I am referring to nearly all theologians who have addressed the topic.  Various R&R have cited quotations backing this principle, Nishant in particular, if I recall, and I found the citations convincing.  I'll see if I can find them.
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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: THREE living bishops consecrated before death of Pius XII
« Reply #44 on: April 29, 2018, 05:53:16 PM »
Quote from: Clemens Maria on April 29, 2018, 03:14:33 PM
A few years ago someone posted an image of it here.  I don’t have time to search for it now.  I saved a copy of the image on my laptop.  If need be, I can upload it later.  However, there’s a big caveat.  The source of the information was a palmerian line group.  So not exactly a unassailable witness.  Still, I’m not sure why they would feel the need to make something like that up or why they would be motivated to forge a docuмent like that.

Of Thuc's mandatum?  I've seen images of similar mandata issued to other Iron Curtain bishops, but not the actual Thuc one.  Kalata, who is still alive ... circling back to the original thread topic ... most likely had one.
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