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Author Topic: THREE living bishops consecrated before death of Pius XII  (Read 12777 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: THREE living bishops consecrated before death of Pius XII
« Reply #35 on: April 26, 2018, 07:34:51 PM »
This is the main reason that a form of sedeprivationism or sedeimpoundism is far superior to sedevacantism proper.  Indeed, the jurisdictional hierarchy has pretty much come to an end ... which according to nearly all theologians would entail a defection of the Church.  This is the so-called "Ecclesiavacantism" objection.  With sedeprivationism, that simply isn't true.  And I maintain that even if Bergoglio and his predecessors are only material popes, they still retain the power of designation (that's why Cardinals he would appoint would be able to elect a valid formal pope).  But this IMO would hold also of episcopal appointments, and so long as the appointed bishops have no impediments to exercising their office, they have full formal authority and jurisdiction.  I believe that to hold true in the Eastern Rites.
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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: THREE living bishops consecrated before death of Pius XII
« Reply #36 on: April 26, 2018, 07:41:20 PM »
Quote from: RomanTheo on April 26, 2018, 07:20:13 PM
It's actually down to two. Bishop Dominik Katala was ordained during the reign of Pius XII, but wasn't appointed until 1985.  

That's debatable.  Bishop Kalata was ordained at such a young age because he was one of these stealth iron-curtain bishops ... who were given complete jurisdiction (in secret), similar to the orders that Bishop Thuc received.  In fact, they could in turn appoint other bishops, who in turn would also have jurisdiction.  They waited until 1985 to give him a public appointment.

That's one very interesting facet of the Thuc line.  Pius XII basically communicated to him all the powers of the papacy that were not by divine law only capable of being held by the Holy See ... through the so-called mandatum, including if I understand correctly the power to appoint titular bishops.  But someone could correct me if I'm wrong.
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Offline forlorn

Re: THREE living bishops consecrated before death of Pius XII
« Reply #37 on: April 27, 2018, 05:11:44 AM »
Quote from: Ladislaus on April 26, 2018, 07:34:51 PM
This is the main reason that a form of sedeprivationism or sedeimpoundism is far superior to sedevacantism proper.  Indeed, the jurisdictional hierarchy has pretty much come to an end ... which according to nearly all theologians would entail a defection of the Church.  This is the so-called "Ecclesiavacantism" objection.  With sedeprivationism, that simply isn't true.  And I maintain that even if Bergoglio and his predecessors are only material popes, they still retain the power of designation (that's why Cardinals he would appoint would be able to elect a valid formal pope).  But this IMO would hold also of episcopal appointments, and so long as the appointed bishops have no impediments to exercising their office, they have full formal authority and jurisdiction.  I believe that to hold true in the Eastern Rites.
But, as you said in your next post, there are still valid Bishops even in a sedevacantist position, such as the Thuc line. Even the Dimonds, probably the most extreme sedevacantists I've come across, view the Thuc line as valid. It's still very, very few Bishops, but that's not too unlike the Arian Crisis. 
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Offline 2Vermont

Re: THREE living bishops consecrated before death of Pius XII
« Reply #38 on: April 27, 2018, 07:07:30 AM »
Quote from: Ladislaus on April 26, 2018, 07:41:20 PM
That's debatable.  Bishop Kalata was ordained at such a young age because he was one of these stealth iron-curtain bishops ... who were given complete jurisdiction (in secret), similar to the orders that Bishop Thuc received.  In fact, they could in turn appoint other bishops, who in turn would also have jurisdiction.  They waited until 1985 to give him a public appointment.

That's one very interesting facet of the Thuc line.  Pius XII basically communicated to him all the powers of the papacy that were not by divine law only capable of being held by the Holy See ... through the so-called mandatum, including if I understand correctly the power to appoint titular bishops.  But someone could correct me if I'm wrong.
Can you elaborate on the bolded?  Are you saying that it is possible that those bishops of the Thuc line could in fact have jurisdiction?
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Offline 2Vermont

Re: THREE living bishops consecrated before death of Pius XII
« Reply #39 on: April 27, 2018, 07:12:39 AM »
Quote from: Centroamerica on April 26, 2018, 07:11:33 PM
I thought the Indults preached all about Vatican 2 and the new popes. I think there is a clear difference between the Eastern rites and the Indults, mostly being that Eastern rites have valid priestly orders.

Either way, this list of three living Latin rite bishops is so incomplete when you consider that there are so many more valid bishops in the world. Even the Campos defection has a valid bishop that can trace his orders back through Bishops Rangel and  Williamson and Archbishop Lefebvre.
I thought what makes the indult is the very fact that they were told they had to accept Vatican II and not speak negatively of it.  

I would agree that there are more valid priests in the Eastern rite, but I wouldn't commend them if they are silent about or ignore Vatican II.  It is also my understanding that there are a number of Eastern rites that have gone "ecuŠ¼enical", so they aren't fool proof. Take a look at their 1990 Code of Canon Law.  

As for additional bishops, yes I agree.  I think the issue in this thread is bishops with jurisdiction.
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