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Author Topic: THREE living bishops consecrated before death of Pius XII  (Read 9758 times)

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Offline Centroamerica

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Re: THREE living bishops consecrated before death of Pius XII
« Reply #30 on: April 26, 2018, 06:50:11 PM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on April 26, 2018, 12:45:08 PM
    Which ones have come out and denounced Vatican II as a false religion?
    Same could be said of the (3) valid Latin rite bishops, making your post pointless and off topic.
    Denouncing and simply not putting it into practice or ignoring it are two different things, but both are commendable given the circuмstances.

    (Let me add that I believe there are more than three (3) valid Latin rite bishops in the world who are not SV, SSPX or Resistance. I would be inclined to believe that most of the bishops consecrated in the Novus Ordo rite by true bishops not modernists are valid bishops. I am unsure who is and what their numbers are so I avoid them as a general rule. See validity of the new rite...  http://sspx.org/en/validity-new-rite-episcopal-consecrations )
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    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: THREE living bishops consecrated before death of Pius XII
    « Reply #31 on: April 26, 2018, 07:08:44 PM »
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    • Quote from: Centroamerica on April 26, 2018, 06:50:11 PM
    Same could be said of the (3) valid Latin rite bishops, making your post pointless and off topic.
    Denouncing and simply not putting it into practice or ignoring it are two different things, but both are commendable given the circuмstances.
    I would argue that given we're into this 50+ years just ignoring it or not putting it into practice is less than commendable. The indults do this too.
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    Offline Centroamerica

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    Re: THREE living bishops consecrated before death of Pius XII
    « Reply #32 on: April 26, 2018, 07:11:33 PM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on April 26, 2018, 07:08:44 PM
    I would argue that given we're into this 50+ years just ignoring it or not putting it into practice is less than commendable. The indults do this too.
    I thought the Indults preached all about Vatican 2 and the new popes. I think there is a clear difference between the Eastern rites and the Indults, mostly being that Eastern rites have valid priestly orders.

    Either way, this list of three living Latin rite bishops is so incomplete when you consider that there are so many more valid bishops in the world. Even the Campos defection has a valid bishop that can trace his orders back through Bishops Rangel and  Williamson and Archbishop Lefebvre.
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    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...

    Offline RomanTheo

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    Re: THREE living bishops consecrated before death of Pius XII
    « Reply #33 on: April 26, 2018, 07:20:13 PM »
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    • Quote from: Matthew on April 26, 2018, 11:22:35 AM
    UPDATE: Now it's down to THREE living bishops appointed by Pius XII.
    It's actually down to two. Bishop Dominik Katala was ordained during the reign of Pius XII, but wasn't appointed until 1985.  
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: FOUR living bishops consecrated before death of Pius XII
    « Reply #34 on: April 26, 2018, 07:31:17 PM »
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    • Quote from: forlorn on April 26, 2018, 12:38:52 PM
    Finding a Ukrainian or Coptic Church within a distance you can travel to weekly is downright impossible for most people I'd imagine.

    I'm very blessed that way.  Within 45 minutes drive of me I have ...

    2 SSPX chapels (Cleveland, OH and Girard, OH)
    1 Independent SSPX-aligned chapel (Akron, OH)
    1 SSPV chapel (Parma, OH)
    1 CMRI chapel (Akron, OH)
    2 Ukrainian Rite churches (including the seat of the Eparchy) (Akron, OH and Parma, OH)
    1 Maronite church (another about an hour from where I live) ... though I wouldn't go there because they're thoroughly Novus Ordized (Fairlawn, OH and Cleveland, OH)
    6 Byzantine-Ruthenian churches (including the seat of the Eparchy) (Barberton, Brunswick, Brecksville, Solon, Burton, and Parma, OH)
    1 Melkite Rite church (Akron, OH)
    3-4 older/retired priests who will offer the Sacraments (e.g. Confession) in the traditional form

    Cleveland area has always been a very ethnically diverse region of the country with lots of immigration.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: THREE living bishops consecrated before death of Pius XII
    « Reply #35 on: April 26, 2018, 07:34:51 PM »
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    • This is the main reason that a form of sedeprivationism or sedeimpoundism is far superior to sedevacantism proper.  Indeed, the jurisdictional hierarchy has pretty much come to an end ... which according to nearly all theologians would entail a defection of the Church.  This is the so-called "Ecclesiavacantism" objection.  With sedeprivationism, that simply isn't true.  And I maintain that even if Bergoglio and his predecessors are only material popes, they still retain the power of designation (that's why Cardinals he would appoint would be able to elect a valid formal pope).  But this IMO would hold also of episcopal appointments, and so long as the appointed bishops have no impediments to exercising their office, they have full formal authority and jurisdiction.  I believe that to hold true in the Eastern Rites.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: THREE living bishops consecrated before death of Pius XII
    « Reply #36 on: April 26, 2018, 07:41:20 PM »
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    • Quote from: RomanTheo on April 26, 2018, 07:20:13 PM
    It's actually down to two. Bishop Dominik Katala was ordained during the reign of Pius XII, but wasn't appointed until 1985.  

    That's debatable.  Bishop Kalata was ordained at such a young age because he was one of these stealth iron-curtain bishops ... who were given complete jurisdiction (in secret), similar to the orders that Bishop Thuc received.  In fact, they could in turn appoint other bishops, who in turn would also have jurisdiction.  They waited until 1985 to give him a public appointment.

    That's one very interesting facet of the Thuc line.  Pius XII basically communicated to him all the powers of the papacy that were not by divine law only capable of being held by the Holy See ... through the so-called mandatum, including if I understand correctly the power to appoint titular bishops.  But someone could correct me if I'm wrong.
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    Offline forlorn

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    Re: THREE living bishops consecrated before death of Pius XII
    « Reply #37 on: April 27, 2018, 05:11:44 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on April 26, 2018, 07:34:51 PM
    This is the main reason that a form of sedeprivationism or sedeimpoundism is far superior to sedevacantism proper.  Indeed, the jurisdictional hierarchy has pretty much come to an end ... which according to nearly all theologians would entail a defection of the Church.  This is the so-called "Ecclesiavacantism" objection.  With sedeprivationism, that simply isn't true.  And I maintain that even if Bergoglio and his predecessors are only material popes, they still retain the power of designation (that's why Cardinals he would appoint would be able to elect a valid formal pope).  But this IMO would hold also of episcopal appointments, and so long as the appointed bishops have no impediments to exercising their office, they have full formal authority and jurisdiction.  I believe that to hold true in the Eastern Rites.
    But, as you said in your next post, there are still valid Bishops even in a sedevacantist position, such as the Thuc line. Even the Dimonds, probably the most extreme sedevacantists I've come across, view the Thuc line as valid. It's still very, very few Bishops, but that's not too unlike the Arian Crisis. 
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: THREE living bishops consecrated before death of Pius XII
    « Reply #38 on: April 27, 2018, 07:07:30 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on April 26, 2018, 07:41:20 PM
    That's debatable.  Bishop Kalata was ordained at such a young age because he was one of these stealth iron-curtain bishops ... who were given complete jurisdiction (in secret), similar to the orders that Bishop Thuc received.  In fact, they could in turn appoint other bishops, who in turn would also have jurisdiction.  They waited until 1985 to give him a public appointment.

    That's one very interesting facet of the Thuc line.  Pius XII basically communicated to him all the powers of the papacy that were not by divine law only capable of being held by the Holy See ... through the so-called mandatum, including if I understand correctly the power to appoint titular bishops.  But someone could correct me if I'm wrong.
    Can you elaborate on the bolded?  Are you saying that it is possible that those bishops of the Thuc line could in fact have jurisdiction?
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: THREE living bishops consecrated before death of Pius XII
    « Reply #39 on: April 27, 2018, 07:12:39 AM »
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    • Quote from: Centroamerica on April 26, 2018, 07:11:33 PM
    I thought the Indults preached all about Vatican 2 and the new popes. I think there is a clear difference between the Eastern rites and the Indults, mostly being that Eastern rites have valid priestly orders.

    Either way, this list of three living Latin rite bishops is so incomplete when you consider that there are so many more valid bishops in the world. Even the Campos defection has a valid bishop that can trace his orders back through Bishops Rangel and  Williamson and Archbishop Lefebvre.
    I thought what makes the indult is the very fact that they were told they had to accept Vatican II and not speak negatively of it.  

    I would agree that there are more valid priests in the Eastern rite, but I wouldn't commend them if they are silent about or ignore Vatican II.  It is also my understanding that there are a number of Eastern rites that have gone "ecuмenical", so they aren't fool proof. Take a look at their 1990 Code of Canon Law.  

    As for additional bishops, yes I agree.  I think the issue in this thread is bishops with jurisdiction.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: THREE living bishops consecrated before death of Pius XII
    « Reply #40 on: April 29, 2018, 12:56:18 PM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on April 27, 2018, 07:07:30 AM
    Can you elaborate on the bolded?  Are you saying that it is possible that those bishops of the Thuc line could in fact have jurisdiction?

    I think that it's possible that at least the first-line Thuc bishops have real (non-supplied) jurisdiction, i.e. those consecrated directly by him.  Not sure if it's communicable to the bishops consecrated in turn by these.  I don't know that anyone has ever produced a copy of the Thuc mandatum but if it's similar to known copies issued to others in Communist territories, they were given all authority short of what was reserved by Divine Law to the Pope himself.  Not only that, but Thuc and the bishops he consecrated would not have been excommunicated by Canon Law for doing consecrations without papal mandate ... since he had a mandate.
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    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: THREE living bishops consecrated before death of Pius XII
    « Reply #41 on: April 29, 2018, 03:03:41 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on April 26, 2018, 07:34:51 PM
    Indeed, the jurisdictional hierarchy has pretty much come to an end ... which according to nearly all theologians would entail a defection of the Church.
    Please provide a few quotes or citations.  They must be easy to come by since “nearly all theologians” have addressed this topic.  I must have bad reading comprehension since I couldn’t find anything about this in the theological manuals (Van Noort, Wilhelm and Scannell, Parente, etc).  John Lane would agree with you on this point but when Fr Cekada asked him for quotes to prove it (during debate on Ignis Ardens in 2012), he provided a quote from W&S which turned out to be at best ambiguous.  It certainly wasn’t clear that they were intending to say that the jurisdictional hierarchy (the ordinaries) must have at least one living office holder at all times.  If you think about it a bit, it doesn’t really make a lot of sense.  What other institutions would have a similar requirement?
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    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: THREE living bishops consecrated before death of Pius XII
    « Reply #42 on: April 29, 2018, 03:14:33 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on April 29, 2018, 12:56:18 PM
    I think that it's possible that at least the first-line Thuc bishops have real (non-supplied) jurisdiction, i.e. those consecrated directly by him.  Not sure if it's communicable to the bishops consecrated in turn by these.  I don't know that anyone has ever produced a copy of the Thuc mandatum but if it's similar to known copies issued to others in Communist territories, they were given all authority short of what was reserved by Divine Law to the Pope himself.  Not only that, but Thuc and the bishops he consecrated would not have been excommunicated by Canon Law for doing consecrations without papal mandate ... since he had a mandate.
    A few years ago someone posted an image of it here.  I don’t have time to search for it now.  I saved a copy of the image on my laptop.  If need be, I can upload it later.  However, there’s a big caveat.  The source of the information was a palmerian line group.  So not exactly a unassailable witness.  Still, I’m not sure why they would feel the need to make something like that up or why they would be motivated to forge a docuмent like that.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: THREE living bishops consecrated before death of Pius XII
    « Reply #43 on: April 29, 2018, 05:51:41 PM »
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    • Quote from: Clemens Maria on April 29, 2018, 03:03:41 PM
    Please provide a few quotes or citations.  They must be easy to come by since “nearly all theologians” have addressed this topic.

    By nearly all theologians, I am referring to nearly all theologians who have addressed the topic.  Various R&R have cited quotations backing this principle, Nishant in particular, if I recall, and I found the citations convincing.  I'll see if I can find them.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: THREE living bishops consecrated before death of Pius XII
    « Reply #44 on: April 29, 2018, 05:53:16 PM »
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    • Quote from: Clemens Maria on April 29, 2018, 03:14:33 PM
    A few years ago someone posted an image of it here.  I don’t have time to search for it now.  I saved a copy of the image on my laptop.  If need be, I can upload it later.  However, there’s a big caveat.  The source of the information was a palmerian line group.  So not exactly a unassailable witness.  Still, I’m not sure why they would feel the need to make something like that up or why they would be motivated to forge a docuмent like that.

    Of Thuc's mandatum?  I've seen images of similar mandata issued to other Iron Curtain bishops, but not the actual Thuc one.  Kalata, who is still alive ... circling back to the original thread topic ... most likely had one.
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