The fact of the matter is that it is a matter of faith that there will be successors of the apostles until the end of time, so the death of the bishops ordained and appointed during Pius XII's reign means nothing other than they are no longer successors of the apostles-- at which point we would know with certainty of faith that there are successors:

-John XXIII (as pope or through supplied jurisdiction of an antipope)
-Through Paul VI (most likely supplied jurisdiction for an anti pope, esp. after 1965)
-Theoretically (and very theoretically) successors from JPII, BXVI and possibly (though even more theoretically) through Francis
-Eastern Rite Bishops (via jurisdiction supplied to an antipope or not)
-Very, very, very theoretically to traditional bishops-- I would not make this claim but I know that some do
-Secret hierarchy via Red Curtain bishops, Siri, etc.

A teaching which is of the faith cannot be denied.  There are successors to the apostles; we may not know who they are but that hardly means they do not exist.  The Church began in an upper room, it is perfectly conceivably that she will "end" in a lower room, in the catacombs as it were.

Quote from: Mithrandylan

The fact of the matter is that it is a matter of faith that there will be successors of the apostles until the end of time, so the death of the bishops ordained and appointed during Pius XII's reign means nothing other than they are no longer successors of the apostles-- at which point we would know with certainty of faith that there are successors:

-John XXIII (as pope or through supplied jurisdiction of an antipope)
-Through Paul VI (most likely supplied jurisdiction for an anti pope, esp. after 1965)
-Theoretically (and very theoretically) successors from JPII, BXVI and possibly (though even more theoretically) through Francis
-Eastern Rite Bishops (via jurisdiction supplied to an antipope or not)
-Very, very, very theoretically to traditional bishops-- I would not make this claim but I know that some do
-Secret hierarchy via Red Curtain bishops, Siri, etc.

A teaching which is of the faith cannot be denied.  There are successors to the apostles; we may not know who they are but that hardly means they do not exist.  The Church began in an upper room, it is perfectly conceivably that she will "end" in a lower room, in the catacombs as it were.

Good post.  I would say though that with traditional bishops that any claim to them being formal successors is an error.  

All of the traditional bishops know this, which is why they have always denied that they have jurisdiction and formal apostolic succession.  The only bishop that ever claimed jurisdiction was the late Bp. Vezelis.  

The only proponents of this view are certain laymen, who, in my opinion, do not understand the relevant theology of Apostolicity.

Quote from: Matthew

I wonder what this particular brand of Sedevacantists will do once the last of these bishops dies?

This is a problem with those sedevacantists who irrationally think that the Church is preserved in these men.  They implemented the heresies of Vatican 2 and the Novus Ordo in their dioceses.  If they had rejected the errors of the Conciliar sect it would be widely known.  The only bishops appointed by a True Pope known to have rejected Conciliarism are Archbishop Lefebvre, Archbishop Thuc, and Bishop Castro de Mayer.

When the last of these bishops die, I have confidence that the Catholic Church is still preserved in the traditional bishops and communities who have continued to persevere in the True Faith.

This is a problem with those sedevacantists who irrationally think that the Church is preserved in these men.  They implemented the heresies of Vatican 2 and the Novus Ordo in their dioceses.  If they had rejected the errors of the Conciliar sect it would be widely known.  The only bishops appointed by a True Pope known to have rejected Conciliarism are Archbishop Lefebvre, Archbishop Thuc, and Bishop Castro de Mayer.

When the last of these bishops die, I have confidence that the Catholic Church is still preserved in the traditional bishops and communities who have continued to persevere in the True Faith.


I agree.

I just started this thread, and updated it, with the idea of smashing the error of those home aloners -- technically many of them are sedevacantists as well, but more importantly they are (dogmatic) home aloners.

I agree that all the Trad bishops -- and that includes the Sedevacantist branch -- are valid bishops. Furthermore, any issue of jurisdiction or authority is moot, as the Church supplies in a crisis like we're in today. I would have thought most men would have common sense enough to understand that -- but alas, human beings have an almost infinite ability to err and get things wrong.

These bishops are Latin rite (of the Latin Church).

There are still the Ukrainian Catholic Church, the Coptic Catholic Church and dozens more that have valid episcopal consecration, not to mention they don’t seem to give a flip about Vatican 2. The Ukrainian Uniates have been denounced by the Orthodox in Ukraine for not being ecuмenical enough and basically taking control of ex-Orthodox churches in a Saint Nicolas du Chardonnet style.

These home aloners look like complete idiots when the bigger picture of Who and What the Catholic Church is comes to light. Just because a large portion of the Latin Church has defected means nothing. The Churches which use the Byzantine and Alexandrian rites are alive and well.

These bishops are Latin rite (of the Latin Church).

There are still the Ukrainian Catholic Church, the Coptic Catholic Church and dozens more that have valid episcopal consecration, not to mention they don’t seem to give a flip about Vatican 2. The Ukrainian Uniates have been denounced by the Orthodox in Ukraine for not being ecuмenical enough and basically taking control of ex-Orthodox churches in a Saint Nicolas du Chardonnet style.

These home aloners look like complete idiots when the bigger picture of Who and What the Catholic Church is comes to light. Just because a large portion of the Latin Church has defected means nothing. The Churches which use the Byzantine and Alexandrian rites are alive and well.