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Author Topic: THREE living bishops consecrated before death of Pius XII  (Read 6799 times)

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Offline Matthew

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THREE living bishops consecrated before death of Pius XII
« on: August 18, 2014, 04:05:57 PM »
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    • Complete list of pre-Vatican II bishops
    Bishops with certain authority, consecrated during the reign of Pope Pius XII

    I wonder what this particular brand of Sedevacantists will do once the last of these bishops dies? How can I say this in a way that doesn't sound bad...

    "I can't wait?"

    UPDATE: There are now just THREE such bishops alive today.


    The last of the Pre-Vatican 2 bishops

    According to the www.catholic-hierarchy.org web site there are only 10 living bishops who were consecrated prior to the death of Pope Pius XII on 9 Oct 1958.

    Many home-aloners and/or sedevacantists would consider that these are the last true bishops, or the last bishops with jurisdiction and authority.

    Many home aloners would only go to these bishops for confession, marriage, Mass, etc. Since they are obviously quite rare, they stay at home on Sunday instead.

    The youngest of these 10 bishops is 89 years old and the oldest is 100
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    Offline Matthew

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    FOUR living bishops consecrated before death of Pius XII
    « Reply #1 on: August 18, 2014, 04:08:46 PM »
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    • I don't get why these particular Sedes make such a big deal about these last 10 bishops...

    We have plenty of valid bishops alive today. What's the problem? Do these particular Sedes have issues with consecrating without a papal mandate or something? A rather funny position for a sedevacantist to have...

    Sounds like a "home aloner" group to me. This is how home-aloners justify that the Church hasn't failed. "It hasn't failed. These 10 bishops are still the hierarchy. I just can't get to any of their Masses, so I stay home."

    Like I said -- I'm not wishing for evil or anything, but it will be helpful once these bishops have gone on to their reward. Then these home-aloners won't have any excuses to cling to. They will be forced to admit they were wrong, or that the Church has completely failed and the end of the world hasn't come.

    THAT is what I look forward to.
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    Offline Mithrandylan

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    FOUR living bishops consecrated before death of Pius XII
    « Reply #2 on: August 18, 2014, 04:17:17 PM »
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    • The issue is that the traditional bishops, valid and heroic as they may be, are not formal successors of the apostles.  They have no mission in the sense that the theologians speak of it-- they were not "sent", possess no office (and no jurisdiction as a result) and as a result they do not (cannot) rule the faithful.  True successors are given the power to govern and sanctify, not just sanctify.

    Of course, there could be true successors besides the ten bishops consecrated and given an office during the life of Pius XII.  It's just that the traditional bishops aren't to be counted among them.
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    Offline Ambrose

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    FOUR living bishops consecrated before death of Pius XII
    « Reply #3 on: August 18, 2014, 04:58:56 PM »
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    • Although the Pius XII bishops are the most simple source of establishing members of the hierarchy, there are other sources,  
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    The Council of Trent, The Catechism of the Council of Trent, Papal Teaching, The Teaching of the Holy Office, The Teaching of the Church Fathers, The Code of Canon Law, Countless approved catechisms, The Doctors of the Church, The teaching of the Dogmatic

    Offline JohnAnthonyMarie

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    FOUR living bishops consecrated before death of Pius XII
    « Reply #4 on: August 18, 2014, 06:17:26 PM »
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    • Quote from: Matthew
    I don't get why these particular Sedes make such a big deal about these last 10 bishops...

    We have plenty of valid bishops alive today. What's the problem? Do these particular Sedes have issues with consecrating without a papal mandate or something? A rather funny position for a sedevacantist to have...

    Sounds like a "home aloner" group to me. This is how home-aloners justify that the Church hasn't failed. "It hasn't failed. These 10 bishops are still the hierarchy. I just can't get to any of their Masses, so I stay home."

    Like I said -- I'm not wishing for evil or anything, but it will be helpful once these bishops have gone on to their reward. Then these home-aloners won't have any excuses to cling to. They will be forced to admit they were wrong, or that the Church has completely failed and the end of the world hasn't come.

    THAT is what I look forward to.


    This is interesting.  May I inquire to what group of 'sedes' you are referring?

    I might hazard a guess that a line is being drawn at the introduction of the 1968 Rite of Episcopal Consecration, making then a distinction between Bishops consecrated before and after this event.  These ten, then, that are here identified, being somehow distinct from Bishops, licit or illicit, consecrated in this same rite, either with or without papal mandate.

    SO lets make some top-level grouping of the living Bishops:
    1. The ten Bishops listed above.
    2. Bishops consecrated by Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre and Bishop Antonio de Castro Mayer
      2a. Bishops Fellay, Galarreta, Mallerais , and  Williamson
      2b. Bishop Rangel    
    3. Bishops consecrated by Archbishop Ngo Dinh Thuc Pierre Martin
      3a. Bishops Lauriers, Carmona-Rivera, Hernandez (all deceased)
      3b. Bishops McKenna, Munari, Gutiérez, Hillebrand, Pivarunas
      3c. Bishops Bedingfeld, Oravec, Slupski, Sanborn, Vezelis, Miguet, Main, Dolan, Gandara

    Please add to the list where information is available.
     
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    Offline Matthew

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    FOUR living bishops consecrated before death of Pius XII
    « Reply #5 on: August 18, 2014, 06:28:02 PM »
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    • Quote from: JohnAnthonyMarie

    This is interesting.  May I inquire to what group of 'sedes' you are referring?
     


    I'm not entirely sure.

    I received this from an ex-CI member at my e-mail address.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    FOUR living bishops consecrated before death of Pius XII
    « Reply #6 on: August 18, 2014, 06:40:01 PM »
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    • It's not about validity but about some kind of juridical continuity.  Question is whether the death of the last Pius XII-appointed bishop would cause an effective defection of the Church.  I for one don't think so, but that's one of the arguments that R&R raises against the sedevacantist position.

    You don't spend very much time in the Crisis section of the forum, do you, Matthew?   :laugh1:


    This, like so many other questions, has been beaten to death over here.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    FOUR living bishops consecrated before death of Pius XII
    « Reply #7 on: August 18, 2014, 06:44:50 PM »
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    • This may be either a

    1) sedeprivatoinist sedevacantist going after non-sedeprivationists (sedeprivationism has an answer to this particular problem)

    2) Siri-theorist who believes that the hierarchy has continued under some secret lineage from Siri.  You sure it wasn't Hobson who e-mailed you?

    Doesn't sound like an R&R attacking the SVs, but it may be.  Hard to know without the context.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    FOUR living bishops consecrated before death of Pius XII
    « Reply #8 on: August 18, 2014, 06:52:55 PM »
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    • To give a background for the controversy, a typical argument against mainstream sedevacantism is that this long of a sede vacante period would result in the defection of the Church and a violation of the dogma that St. Peter would have "perpetual successors".  Since time itself cannot be the primary consideration, the question becomes one of a moral / authoritative / juridical continuity.  One response is that this continuity has not been broken due to the Pius XII-appointed bishops who are still living.  Some find this inadequate.  Others find it unnecessary in terms of maintaining the continuity.  Sedeprivationism is one answer.  I have argued that this lineage could possibly persist in the Eastern Rites because the can validly/juridically appoint bishops on their own, without prior papal mandate, and that the Pope usually has a veto power after the fact, but is not an a priori prerequisite for exercising jurisdiction in the Eastern Churches.  In addition, it's quite possible / probable that Bishop Thuc maintained an Apostolic Mandate from Pius XII that gave him the authority to consecrate bishops as he saw fit.
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    Offline Mabel

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    FOUR living bishops consecrated before death of Pius XII
    « Reply #9 on: August 18, 2014, 08:10:36 PM »
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    • Quote from: JohnAnthonyMarie
    Quote from: Matthew
    I don't get why these particular Sedes make such a big deal about these last 10 bishops...

    We have plenty of valid bishops alive today. What's the problem? Do these particular Sedes have issues with consecrating without a papal mandate or something? A rather funny position for a sedevacantist to have...

    Sounds like a "home aloner" group to me. This is how home-aloners justify that the Church hasn't failed. "It hasn't failed. These 10 bishops are still the hierarchy. I just can't get to any of their Masses, so I stay home."

    Like I said -- I'm not wishing for evil or anything, but it will be helpful once these bishops have gone on to their reward. Then these home-aloners won't have any excuses to cling to. They will be forced to admit they were wrong, or that the Church has completely failed and the end of the world hasn't come.

    THAT is what I look forward to.


    This is interesting.  May I inquire to what group of 'sedes' you are referring?

    I might hazard a guess that a line is being drawn at the introduction of the 1968 Rite of Episcopal Consecration, making then a distinction between Bishops consecrated before and after this event.  These ten, then, that are here identified, being somehow distinct from Bishops, licit or illicit, consecrated in this same rite, either with or without papal mandate.

    SO lets make some top-level grouping of the living Bishops:
    1. The ten Bishops listed above.
    2. Bishops consecrated by Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre and Bishop Antonio de Castro Mayer
      2a. Bishops Fellay, Galarreta, Mallerais , and  Williamson
      2b. Bishop Rangel    
    3. Bishops consecrated by Archbishop Ngo Dinh Thuc Pierre Martin
      3a. Bishops Lauriers, Carmona-Rivera, Hernandez (all deceased)
      3b. Bishops McKenna, Munari, Gutiérez, Hillebrand, Pivarunas
      3c. Bishops Bedingfeld, Oravec, Slupski, Sanborn, Vezelis, Miguet, Main, Dolan, Gandara

    Please add to the list where information is available.
     


    I couldn't possibly sort through them but don't forget the Eastern Rite bishops.
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    Offline JohnAnthonyMarie

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    FOUR living bishops consecrated before death of Pius XII
    « Reply #10 on: August 18, 2014, 08:19:21 PM »
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    • Quote from: Mabel
    Quote from: JohnAnthonyMarie
    Quote from: Matthew
    I don't get why these particular Sedes make such a big deal about these last 10 bishops...

    We have plenty of valid bishops alive today. What's the problem? Do these particular Sedes have issues with consecrating without a papal mandate or something? A rather funny position for a sedevacantist to have...

    Sounds like a "home aloner" group to me. This is how home-aloners justify that the Church hasn't failed. "It hasn't failed. These 10 bishops are still the hierarchy. I just can't get to any of their Masses, so I stay home."

    Like I said -- I'm not wishing for evil or anything, but it will be helpful once these bishops have gone on to their reward. Then these home-aloners won't have any excuses to cling to. They will be forced to admit they were wrong, or that the Church has completely failed and the end of the world hasn't come.

    THAT is what I look forward to.


    This is interesting.  May I inquire to what group of 'sedes' you are referring?

    I might hazard a guess that a line is being drawn at the introduction of the 1968 Rite of Episcopal Consecration, making then a distinction between Bishops consecrated before and after this event.  These ten, then, that are here identified, being somehow distinct from Bishops, licit or illicit, consecrated in this same rite, either with or without papal mandate.

    SO lets make some top-level grouping of the living Bishops:
    1. The ten Bishops listed above.
    2. Bishops consecrated by Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre and Bishop Antonio de Castro Mayer
      2a. Bishops Fellay, Galarreta, Mallerais , and  Williamson
      2b. Bishop Rangel    
    3. Bishops consecrated by Archbishop Ngo Dinh Thuc Pierre Martin
      3a. Bishops Lauriers, Carmona-Rivera, Hernandez (all deceased)
      3b. Bishops McKenna, Munari, Gutiérez, Hillebrand, Pivarunas
      3c. Bishops Bedingfeld, Oravec, Slupski, Sanborn, Vezelis, Miguet, Main, Dolan, Gandara

    Please add to the list where information is available.
     


    I couldn't possibly sort through them but don't forget the Eastern Rite bishops.


    Yes, you are very correct; This list is a quick cut at an initial draft - I can only see so far looking out from under my rock -lol- and would more than welcome additional input from others.  (I vote for gathering them all up, locking them in a room with a stove, ballots, and a box of matches until they elect a leader - rofl)
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    « Reply #11 on: August 18, 2014, 08:41:03 PM »
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    •  :facepalm:

    They're not talking about validity but about juridical continuity.
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    Offline Mithrandylan

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    FOUR living bishops consecrated before death of Pius XII
    « Reply #12 on: August 18, 2014, 10:35:43 PM »
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    • John Anthony Marie,

    You should know that Bp. Oravec passed ~ 2 weeks ago.  R.I.P.
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    Offline Mithrandylan

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    « Reply #13 on: August 18, 2014, 10:43:47 PM »
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    • The fact of the matter is that it is a matter of faith that there will be successors of the apostles until the end of time, so the death of the bishops ordained and appointed during Pius XII's reign means nothing other than they are no longer successors of the apostles-- at which point we would know with certainty of faith that there are successors:

    -John XXIII (as pope or through supplied jurisdiction of an antipope)
    -Through Paul VI (most likely supplied jurisdiction for an anti pope, esp. after 1965)
    -Theoretically (and very theoretically) successors from JPII, BXVI and possibly (though even more theoretically) through Francis
    -Eastern Rite Bishops (via jurisdiction supplied to an antipope or not)
    -Very, very, very theoretically to traditional bishops-- I would not make this claim but I know that some do
    -Secret hierarchy via Red Curtain bishops, Siri, etc.

    A teaching which is of the faith cannot be denied.  There are successors to the apostles; we may not know who they are but that hardly means they do not exist.  The Church began in an upper room, it is perfectly conceivably that she will "end" in a lower room, in the catacombs as it were.
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    Offline JohnAnthonyMarie

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    FOUR living bishops consecrated before death of Pius XII
    « Reply #14 on: August 18, 2014, 10:44:44 PM »
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    • Quote from: Mithrandylan
    John Anthony Marie,

    You should know that Bp. Oravec passed ~ 2 weeks ago.  R.I.P.


    Thank you for informing me of his passing.  

        Eternal rest, grant unto him O Lord
        and let perpetual light shine upon him.

        May his soul and the souls of all the faithful departed,
        through the mercy of God, rest in peace.
        Amen.
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