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Author Topic: THREE living bishops consecrated before death of Pius XII  (Read 12752 times)

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Offline Matthew

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FOUR living bishops consecrated before death of Pius XII
« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2014, 06:28:02 PM »
Quote from: JohnAnthonyMarie

This is interesting.  May I inquire to what group of 'sedes' you are referring?
 


I'm not entirely sure.

I received this from an ex-CI member at my e-mail address.

Offline Ladislaus

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FOUR living bishops consecrated before death of Pius XII
« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2014, 06:40:01 PM »
It's not about validity but about some kind of juridical continuity.  Question is whether the death of the last Pius XII-appointed bishop would cause an effective defection of the Church.  I for one don't think so, but that's one of the arguments that R&R raises against the sedevacantist position.

You don't spend very much time in the Crisis section of the forum, do you, Matthew?   :laugh1:


This, like so many other questions, has been beaten to death over here.


Offline Ladislaus

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FOUR living bishops consecrated before death of Pius XII
« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2014, 06:44:50 PM »
This may be either a

1) sedeprivatoinist sedevacantist going after non-sedeprivationists (sedeprivationism has an answer to this particular problem)

2) Siri-theorist who believes that the hierarchy has continued under some secret lineage from Siri.  You sure it wasn't Hobson who e-mailed you?

Doesn't sound like an R&R attacking the SVs, but it may be.  Hard to know without the context.

Offline Ladislaus

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FOUR living bishops consecrated before death of Pius XII
« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2014, 06:52:55 PM »
To give a background for the controversy, a typical argument against mainstream sedevacantism is that this long of a sede vacante period would result in the defection of the Church and a violation of the dogma that St. Peter would have "perpetual successors".  Since time itself cannot be the primary consideration, the question becomes one of a moral / authoritative / juridical continuity.  One response is that this continuity has not been broken due to the Pius XII-appointed bishops who are still living.  Some find this inadequate.  Others find it unnecessary in terms of maintaining the continuity.  Sedeprivationism is one answer.  I have argued that this lineage could possibly persist in the Eastern Rites because the can validly/juridically appoint bishops on their own, without prior papal mandate, and that the Pope usually has a veto power after the fact, but is not an a priori prerequisite for exercising jurisdiction in the Eastern Churches.  In addition, it's quite possible / probable that Bishop Thuc maintained an Apostolic Mandate from Pius XII that gave him the authority to consecrate bishops as he saw fit.

FOUR living bishops consecrated before death of Pius XII
« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2014, 08:10:36 PM »
Quote from: JohnAnthonyMarie
Quote from: Matthew
I don't get why these particular Sedes make such a big deal about these last 10 bishops...

We have plenty of valid bishops alive today. What's the problem? Do these particular Sedes have issues with consecrating without a papal mandate or something? A rather funny position for a sedevacantist to have...

Sounds like a "home aloner" group to me. This is how home-aloners justify that the Church hasn't failed. "It hasn't failed. These 10 bishops are still the hierarchy. I just can't get to any of their Masses, so I stay home."

Like I said -- I'm not wishing for evil or anything, but it will be helpful once these bishops have gone on to their reward. Then these home-aloners won't have any excuses to cling to. They will be forced to admit they were wrong, or that the Church has completely failed and the end of the world hasn't come.

THAT is what I look forward to.


This is interesting.  May I inquire to what group of 'sedes' you are referring?

I might hazard a guess that a line is being drawn at the introduction of the 1968 Rite of Episcopal Consecration, making then a distinction between Bishops consecrated before and after this event.  These ten, then, that are here identified, being somehow distinct from Bishops, licit or illicit, consecrated in this same rite, either with or without papal mandate.

SO lets make some top-level grouping of the living Bishops:
1. The ten Bishops listed above.
2. Bishops consecrated by Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre and Bishop Antonio de Castro Mayer
  2a. Bishops Fellay, Galarreta, Mallerais , and  Williamson
  2b. Bishop Rangel    
3. Bishops consecrated by Archbishop Ngo Dinh Thuc Pierre Martin
  3a. Bishops Lauriers, Carmona-Rivera, Hernandez (all deceased)
  3b. Bishops McKenna, Munari, Gutiérez, Hillebrand, Pivarunas
  3c. Bishops Bedingfeld, Oravec, Slupski, Sanborn, Vezelis, Miguet, Main, Dolan, Gandara

Please add to the list where information is available.
 


I couldn't possibly sort through them but don't forget the Eastern Rite bishops.