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Author Topic: Three Errors of the Feeneyite Movement  (Read 823 times)

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Offline Belloc

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Three Errors of the Feeneyite Movement
« on: February 03, 2010, 09:31:47 AM »
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  • Proud "European American" and prouder, still, Catholic


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Three Errors of the Feeneyite Movement
    « Reply #1 on: February 03, 2010, 09:45:53 AM »
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  • I do not myself believe in explicit Baptism of Desire, but I do acknowledge it to be an open question that has not been definitively settled by the Church's magisterium.

    Both pro and anti BoD people have absolutely conflated the two issues, i.e. EENS and BoD.  I have LONG argued that to both sides.  What has happened, however, is that the anti-EENS people have redefined BoD into implicit BoD, i.e. the BoD of non-catechumens.  Implicit BoD absolutely guts EENS and renders it a meaningless formula.  Which is in fact why the anti-BoD folks have felt the need to attack BoD in order to salvage EENS.  In order to do so, however, they have to attack St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Robert Bellarmine, St. Alphonsus, etc.  In other words, by going after BoD in order to defends EENS, they're tacitly GRANTING the redefinition of BoD by the anti-EENS crowd and thereby inadvertantly making EENS much harder to defend.  St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Robert Bellarmine, St. Alphonsus etc. only considered BoD in the context of catechumens.  St. Robert Bellarmine asks the question:  "Whether catechumens who die before receiving the sacrament of baptism can be saved?"  There's no backing anywhere in the Church Fathers or Doctors of the Church for the implicit BoD of infidels.  It's a complete novelty.


    Offline Belloc

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    Three Errors of the Feeneyite Movement
    « Reply #2 on: February 03, 2010, 09:47:09 AM »
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  • Good thoughts, would add one of my own-ultimately we have to leave this up to God, who knows the hearts and minds...this article is posted not to slam Feeney himself, who may have had disagremtns with his own followers for al lwe know.....
    Proud "European American" and prouder, still, Catholic

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Three Errors of the Feeneyite Movement
    « Reply #3 on: February 03, 2010, 09:49:37 AM »
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  • As for everything else in the OP, point #2 is complete hogwash.

    There's absolutley no way that explicit BoD is de fide or dogma.

    BoB is held by a handful of Church Fathers.  BoD if I recall is hinted at only by St. Augustine.  Even for BoB, the Fathers who hold it cite Our Lord's reference to His own "Baptism", i.e. His Passion.  But obviously that passage proves nothing, for Our Lord did not require Baptism.  And it's unclear in most of these Fathers whether BoB can replace sacramental baptism or acts as a means to have all sins blotted out (in a manner analogous to baptism).

    I have a real problem with the fact that all theologians admit that only sacramental/water baptism imparts the sacramental character.  What is that character?  Well, it's nothing other than the CAPACITY to receive the supernatural life of God in our souls, a capacity which we utterly lack in nature.  Otherwise, sacramental character becomes trivialized into some "badge of honor" that some people in heaven have and others do not.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Three Errors of the Feeneyite Movement
    « Reply #4 on: February 03, 2010, 09:52:23 AM »
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  • #3 appears to be a valid criticism.  I've pointed this out myself.  But it again stems from what I wrote above.  Father Feeny felt as though he had to attack BoD in order to salvage EENS.  But he saw the text from Trent and felt the need to distinguish between justification and salvation.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Three Errors of the Feeneyite Movement
    « Reply #5 on: February 03, 2010, 09:58:24 AM »
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  • Quote from: Belloc
    Good thoughts, would add one of my own-ultimately we have to leave this up to God, who knows the hearts and minds...this article is posted not to slam Feeney himself, who may have had disagremtns with his own followers for al lwe know.....


    I agree that Father Feeney probably made some theological mistakes.

    Remember though that he was struggling under Cardinal Cushing, who once stated (in an authorized biography of his):  "No salvation outside the Church?  Nonsense.  No one's going to tell me that Christ came to die for any select group."

    Offline SJB

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    Three Errors of the Feeneyite Movement
    « Reply #6 on: February 03, 2010, 12:40:05 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    Quote from: Belloc
    Good thoughts, would add one of my own-ultimately we have to leave this up to God, who knows the hearts and minds...this article is posted not to slam Feeney himself, who may have had disagremtns with his own followers for al lwe know.....


    I agree that Father Feeney probably made some theological mistakes.

    Remember though that he was struggling under Cardinal Cushing, who once stated (in an authorized biography of his):  "No salvation outside the Church?  Nonsense.  No one's going to tell me that Christ came to die for any select group."


    Interesting quote as it seems to indicate a lack of understanding in Cushing. EENS is a dogma of the Church. Christ did die for all, even if all do not benefit. There is no conflict between those two truths. He does explicitly deny the dogma ... then his reason for denying it makes one think he didn't understand the dogma at all.

    Quote from: Wikipedia on Cushing
    He was deeply committed to implementing the Council's reforms and promoting renewal in the Church[6]. In an unprecedented gesture of ecuмenism, he even encouraged Catholics to attend Billy Graham's crusades[7]

    [7] Time magazine. Big Man in a Long Red Robe November 16, 1970


    Quote from: Cushing
    "No salvation outside the Church?  Nonsense.
    That is heretical.
    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil

    Offline Raoul76

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    Three Errors of the Feeneyite Movement
    « Reply #7 on: February 04, 2010, 06:07:47 PM »
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  • Readers: Please IGNORE all my postings here. I was a recent convert and fell into errors, even heresy for which hopefully my ignorance excuses. These include rejecting the "rhythm method," rejecting the idea of "implicit faith," and being brieflfy quasi-Jansenist. I also posted occasions of sins and links to occasions of sin, not understanding the concept much at the time, so do not follow my links.


    Offline SJB

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    Three Errors of the Feeneyite Movement
    « Reply #8 on: February 04, 2010, 06:18:27 PM »
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  • Quote from: Raoul76


    I agree with you.  :smile:
    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil

    Offline CM

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    Three Errors of the Feeneyite Movement
    « Reply #9 on: February 04, 2010, 06:46:33 PM »
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    I agree that Father Feeney probably made some theological mistakes.


    Not probably.  He did.  He misread Trent Session 6, Chapter 4.

    What it actually says:  "...cannot be effect without the laver of regeneration or the desire thereof..."

    What he must have thought it said: "...can be effect with ONLY the laver or ONLY the desire thereof..."

    Big difference.  He failed to understand that this definition simply says that justification cannot take place when one or the other is absent.

    Maybe he didn't pray the Rosary enough?