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Author Topic: Thoughts on the FSSP, Indult?  (Read 27724 times)

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Offline DecemRationis

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Re: Thoughts on the FSSP, Indult?
« Reply #195 on: December 06, 2023, 07:19:15 AM »
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  • I've also read that those with ordinary mission must accept those as having an extraordinary mission (ie. not just miracles). Extraordinary mission isn't determined by those who are not those with ordinary mission.  That would mean acceptance is necessary by the current Novus Ordo hierarchy.  Unless the Traditional bishops can show they actually are the ones with ordinary mission.

    Here is part of it:

    I say, in the second place, that never must an extraordinary mission be received when disowned by the ordinary authority which is the Church of Our Lord. For (1.) we are obliged to obey our ordinary pastors under pain of being heathens and publicans (Matt. xviii. 17): - how then can we place ourselves under other discipline than theirs? Extraordinaries would come in vain, since we should be obliged to refuse to listen to them, in the case that they were, as I have said, disowned by the ordinaries. (II.) God is not the author of dissention, but of union and peace (I Cor. xiv. 33), principally amongst his disciples and Church ministers; as Our Lord clearly shows in the holy prayer he made to his Father in the last days of His mortal life. (John xvii.)

    How then should he authorise two sorts of pastors, the one extraordinary, the other ordinary? As to the ordinary- it certainly is authorised, and as to the extraordinary we are supposing it to be; there would then be two different churches, which is contrary to the Most pure word of Our Lord, who has but one sole spouse, one sole dove, one sole perfect one (Cant. vi.) And how could that be a united flock which should be led by two shepherds, unknown to each other, into different pastures, with different calls and folds, and each of them expecting to have the whole. Thus would it be with the Church under a variety of pastors ordinary and extraordinary, dragged hither and thither into various sects. Or is Our Lord divided (I Cor. i. 13) either in himself or in his body, which is the Church?-no, in good truth. On the contrary, there is but one Lord, who has composed his mystic body with a goodly variety of members, a body compacted and fitly joined together by what every joint supplieth, according to the operation in the measure of every part (Eph. iv. 16).
    Therefore to try to make in the Church this division of ordinary and extraordinary members is to ruin and destroy it. We must then return to what we said, that an extraordinary vocation is never legitimate where it is disapproved of by the ordinary.


    Actually, Vermont, doesn't St. Francis say the opposite:


    Quote
    We must then return to what we said, that an extraordinary vocation is never legitimate where it is disapproved of by the ordinary.




    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Online 2Vermont

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    Re: Thoughts on the FSSP, Indult?
    « Reply #196 on: December 06, 2023, 07:24:25 AM »
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  • Actually, Vermont, doesn't St. Francis say the opposite:

    We must then return to what we said, that an extraordinary vocation is never legitimate where it is disapproved of by the ordinary.
    I don't see that as the opposite.  The last sentence you highlighted summarizes what he has been saying. He is stating that the ordinary must approve.  Otherwise, it is illegitimate.

    The issue is....the NO hierarchy are supposedly the "ordinaries" with ordinary mission.  They certainly do not accept any of the Traditional groups as having extraordinary mission.  


    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Thoughts on the FSSP, Indult?
    « Reply #197 on: December 06, 2023, 07:32:09 AM »
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  • I don't see that as the opposite.  The last sentence you highlighted summarizes what he has been saying. He is stating that the ordinary must approve.  Otherwise, it is illegitimate.

    The issue is....the NO hierarchy are supposedly the "ordinaries" with ordinary mission.  They certainly do not accept any of the Traditional groups as having extraordinary mission. 

    I think you're reading St. Francis wrong. For example, later he says:

    Quote
    (3.) And in effect where will you ever show me a legitimate extraordinary vocation which has not been received by the ordinary authority. S. Paul was extraordinarily called -but was he not approved and authorised by the ordinary once and again? (Acts ix. 13). And the Mission received from the ordinary authority is called a mission by the Holy Spirit (ibid. xiii. 4.). The Mission of S John Baptist cannot properly be called extraordinary because he taught nothing contrary to the Mosaic Church, and because he was of the priestly race. All the same, his doctrine being unusual was approved by the ordinary teaching Office of the Jєωιѕн Church in the high embassy which was sent to him by the priests and Levites (John i. 19), the tenor of which implies the great esteem and reputation in which he was with them; and the very Pharisees who were seated an the chair of Moses,- did they not come to communicate in his baptism quite openly and unhesitatingly? This truly was to receive his mission in good earnest. Did not Our Lord, who was the Master, will to be received by Simeon, who was a priest, as appears from his blessing Our Lady and Joseph; by Zachary the priest; and by S. John? And for his passion, which was the principal fulfilment of his Mission,-did he not will to have the prophetic testimony of him who was High Priest at that time.

    I agree with you regarding the NO hierarchy as having the ordinary mission. Thus, the conundrum. 

    I posted what I think are some relevant thoughts of St. Augustine in this regard:

    St. Augustine - Reflections on Isa. lii. 11 ("Depart ye, go ye out from thence") - The Library - Catholic Info (cathinfo.com)




    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Thoughts on the FSSP, Indult?
    « Reply #198 on: December 06, 2023, 07:35:26 AM »
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  • Vermont,

    And I repeat: where do you read St. Francis as saying that the extraordinary does not require proof by miracles?

    Btw, St. Francis can be wrong. He's not infallible. But he says what he says.
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Online 2Vermont

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    Re: Thoughts on the FSSP, Indult?
    « Reply #199 on: December 06, 2023, 07:38:12 AM »
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  • I'm not sure what you're arguing.  He is just saying the same thing a different way.  There is/has been no extraordinary mission without ordinary approval. I really don't wish to belabor the point.

    PS. I never said he doesn't mention miracles.  I'm adding that that is not the only thing he says is required.  Having said that, I would want to read in more detail the miracle issue because it seems to me that if the ordinary hierarchy wishes to give another extraordinary mission, it wouldn't need a miracle first to do so. 


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Thoughts on the FSSP, Indult?
    « Reply #200 on: December 06, 2023, 08:10:51 AM »
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  • Quote
    The principle remains that validity is presumed initially.
    You can hide behind this principle as much as you want, but your interpretation of it is woefully simplistic.  Fr Hesse admitted that the V2 rites directly FAIL at fulfilling Pius XII's infallible decree. 

    We make fun of some crazy Sedes who say Pius XII was a heretic because they found something they personally didn't like.  Now we have the crazy new-sspx ignoring Pius XII's infallible decree on the form of a sacrament (something which is foundational to our religion) and saying, "It doesn't apply to schismatic rites."

    Wow, what a crazy loophole that we've found!  Don't like a rule in Catholic theology, doctrine or canon law?  Start a schism, and the rules don't apply!!

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Thoughts on the FSSP, Indult?
    « Reply #201 on: December 06, 2023, 08:22:07 AM »
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  • Here's something the new-sspx hasn't thought about (and Fr Hesse too)...when you're part of a schismatic church, you are publicly excommunicated.  If the new-sspx wants to play the game that somebody like +Huonder is a valid bishop (no questions asked), then how about they make him publicly renounce the V2 schism which he was part of?  For the good of the faithful, for the repairing of doctrinal injuries to the Church, and as an act of humility, the new-sspx should make +Huonder renounce his errors, accept Tradition and say the Oath Against Modernism in a public way. 

    But they won't because even though they argue that V2 is schismatic, they don't practically ACT as if it is.  Their hypocrisy, contradictions and half-truths have finally come home to roost.  May God enlighten those in this society who are still of good-will, to leave, and then let it be sucked in by new-rome and destroyed.  The new-sspx is infiltrated, it's corrupted and it needs to be replaced.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Thoughts on the FSSP, Indult?
    « Reply #202 on: December 06, 2023, 09:12:44 AM »
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  • Quote
    The principle remains that validity is presumed initially. Listen to 30 seconds, from 56:10 to 56:43.

    https://youtu.be/Ur1OlGrTU7s?t=3369
    Fr Hesse reduces the factual doubts about the new rite to personal doubt - "I never had any personal doubts about my ordination."  :facepalm:

    A personal doubt is called a 'negative doubt' because it's based on feelings.  A positive doubt is based on facts/evidence.  His personal doubts are irrelevant to the matter because no one can ever know with exact certainty.

    Fr Hesse at the 56 min mark then makes more logical errors.  He says "The Church, in doubt, is usually in favor of validity."  ....but...then he quotes canon law which says "Only if you have POSITIVE and REASONABLE doubt is validity not presumed."

    Ding, ding, ding!!!  We have a winner. 

    There is positive/reasonable doubts about the V2 rites, thus, as Fr Hesse says, canon law does NOT presume validity.

    These rites directly contradict Pius XII's infallible decree on the necessary form/prayer, in order to be valid.  This is positive/reasonable doubt.


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Thoughts on the FSSP, Indult?
    « Reply #203 on: December 06, 2023, 09:54:53 AM »
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  • Fr Hesse reduces the factual doubts about the new rite to personal doubt - "I never had any personal doubts about my ordination."  :facepalm:

    A personal doubt is called a 'negative doubt' because it's based on feelings.  A positive doubt is based on facts/evidence.  His personal doubts are irrelevant to the matter because no one can ever know with exact certainty.

    Fr Hesse at the 56 min mark then makes more logical errors.  He says "The Church, in doubt, is usually in favor of validity."  ....but...then he quotes canon law which says "Only if you have POSITIVE and REASONABLE doubt is validity not presumed."

    Ding, ding, ding!!!  We have a winner. 

    There is positive/reasonable doubts about the V2 rites, thus, as Fr Hesse says, canon law does NOT presume validity.

    These rites directly contradict Pius XII's infallible decree on the necessary form/prayer, in order to be valid.  This is positive/reasonable doubt.

    Right.  Positive doubt simply means that there's something concrete you can point to that might indicate a problem.  Negative doubt is in the "what if ...?" category.  "What if ... the priest messed up the words of my Baptism?"  But in the case of Orders, you can point to changes in the essential form.  Even if it's debatable whether or not it suffices to alter the meaning enough to invalidate, there's something concrete and factual there that rises to the level of making the doubt both "positive" and "reasonable".  We don't know that these Rites are certainly invalid, but where it comes to the Sacraments, we don't need to prove invalidity, just positive/reasonable doubt, and that is clearly present.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Thoughts on the FSSP, Indult?
    « Reply #204 on: December 06, 2023, 10:12:11 AM »
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  • Fr Hesse's arguments are contradictory.
    1.  He admits that if V2 rites were part of the Latin Roman Church, they would be invalid per Pius XII's infallible decree.
    2.  To avoid this, he makes the argument that V2 is schismatic (i.e. not part of the Latin Roman rite).
    3.  Further, he makes the argument that V2's rite is "similar" to the Greek/Russian orthodox.  (in fact, it's more similar to the condemned Anglican rite).
    4.  But "similar" means it's not exactly the same, thus, there still is positive doubt.
    5.  The Church has studied the Russian/Greek and declared them valid; She has not done so for V2.  Positive doubts exist.
    6.  "Presumed validity" only applies to negative doubts (i.e. when there is no factual evidence/changes to question the rites).
    7.  The positive doubts keep adding up.  Canon Law prohibits using sacraments where positive doubt exists.

    Either way you look at it, V2's rites are (per canon law) TO BE TREATED AS invalid.
    1.  They are either 100% invalid, because they are condemned by Pius XII.
    2.  Or...they are positively doubtful because, as a schismatic rite, their changes have not been studied/approved by the Church.
    3.  Or...(3rd possibility) they are 100% invalid because the changes they made mirror the already-condemned changes made by Anglicans.

    Fr Hesse can't have it both ways.  He can't argue V2 rites are schismatic and then say the changes are presumed valid.  He ignores the numerous positive doubts.

    Online 2Vermont

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    Re: Thoughts on the FSSP, Indult?
    « Reply #205 on: December 14, 2023, 11:26:46 AM »
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  • I strongly recommend you read Fr Calderon's study on the NREC, which hopefully will be posted soon, to educate yourself better on this subject.
    Has this been posted yet?  Also, does his study represent what the Resistance believes about the NREC?


    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Thoughts on the FSSP, Indult?
    « Reply #206 on: December 14, 2023, 05:54:35 PM »
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  • Has this been posted yet?  Also, does his study represent what the Resistance believes about the NREC?
    Hey 2V. I'm biting at the bit to post this study which I had translated maybe six months ago. I asked Bishop Williamson to check the theology for me before posting. He told me he was heavily occupied, as indeed I know he is, but that he would check over the work when he could... alas, I'm still waiting. My plan is that if it has not been done by New Year, I will suggest to BW that if he is too busy we could submit the translation to the Dominicans for posting on their website, and they will then check the theology. I will post it on Cathinfo please God before too long. I find it a very interesting and instructive study.