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Author Topic: Thoughts on the FSSP, Indult?  (Read 27884 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Thoughts on the FSSP, Indult?
« Reply #120 on: December 02, 2023, 01:08:45 PM »
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  • It's also significant that at 55.18 onwards, Fr. Hesse mentioned he checked with Bishop Fellay, Fr. Schmidberger, Bishop Williamson, and Bishop Tissier about getting reordained and he claimed that all of them rejected the request.

    I doubt that's true.  I know for a fact that a couple of bishops performed conditional ordinations by request / on demand if a priest asked for it, even if the bishops himself felt the Orders were most likely valid.  In other words, they would not have "reject[ed] the request".  It's more that he asked their opinion and they thought he was good.  I know several cases of priests who were conditionally ordained by some of SSPX bishops despite having been ordained by bishops consecrated before Vatican II.  I know one priest who was ordained directly by Wojtyla in Rome (and Wojtyla was consecrated in 1958) ... who was conditionally ordained by +Williamson.

    Offline Marulus Fidelis

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    Re: Thoughts on the FSSP, Indult?
    « Reply #121 on: December 02, 2023, 04:07:38 PM »
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  • So, I've listened to this talk by Fr. Hesse and if I'm to understand correctly he claims the new rite ordinations ARE valid. This runs contrary to a lot of the opinions offered throughout this thread.
    Now, if Fr Hesse, who probably forgot more about canon law than any of us here will ever know, believes
    the orders of FSSP priests are valid, why should I require any more proof?
    I'm sorry, but this is the dumbest and saddest thing I've read all day. You would risk your soul on the fallible opinion of the most biased "priest" to ever speak on the matter?!

    All the new rites are invalid and thank God that the Body of Christ is not abused all over the world because of it.

    I've attached extensive proof of the invalidity of the new rite of episcopal consecration and here's why the Novus Ordo rite of priestly ordination is as invaild as the Anglican rite: https://schismatic-home-aloner.com/new-rite-of-ordination-invalid/


    Offline Marulus Fidelis

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    Re: Thoughts on the FSSP, Indult?
    « Reply #122 on: December 02, 2023, 04:21:03 PM »
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  • You can't just pick an authority to delegate your thinking to, that's what the Pope is for, not some fake priest who puts on airs.

    If we're going to be deciding theological questions by looking at who has the best resume or is the most highly trained theologian then surely we should follow the opinion of Bp. des Lauriers.

    This is a sacramentological question with an easy answer. If there's doubt about the validity the sacrament must be treated as invalid. The very existence of this thread is proof of the existence of reasonable doubts (caused by changes in the texts).

    Cekada spells it out simply and in great detail.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Thoughts on the FSSP, Indult?
    « Reply #123 on: December 02, 2023, 06:25:14 PM »
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  • Quote
    This is a sacramentological question with an easy answer. If there's doubt about the validity the sacrament must be treated as invalid. The very existence of this thread is proof of the existence of reasonable doubts (caused by changes in the texts).

    Cekada spells it out simply and in great detail.
    Thank you for the sanity check.  I thought I was going crazy.  The new-sspx view of this subject does lead to crazy town.  

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Thoughts on the FSSP, Indult?
    « Reply #124 on: December 02, 2023, 08:54:43 PM »
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  • A true Bishop cannot “intend to do what the Church does” if he uses a faulty rite.  The Church’s intention is WRITTEN into the rite.  The Bishop's “personal” intention is irrelevant.  A heretic, agnostic, fallen-away true bishop can ordain validly.  Why?  Because they only intention that matters is the Church’s, which is part of the rite/prayers. 
    I agree, Pax, that the rite and the context of the rite is of importance when it comes to the intention. Fr Calderon has a bit to say about that in his study on the NREC. However, your statement that the personal intention of the Bishop is irrelevant is a serious theological error. The minister must have at least the intention to do what the Church does, and that means something more than just performing the action. If he follows a Catholic rite, it is presumed he has this intention, giving us moral certitude that the sacrament is valid, but it is possible in spite of this for him to have a defect of intention. His personal, internal intention really does matter:

    "The merely external intention does not safeguard the true notion of the minister. The minister of the sacraments is a voluntary instrument, and for this reason he must intend to confect the sacrament and not only the bare ceremony. In the words of Doronzo: if the external intention alone sufficed for validity, man would be the minister of a ceremony and only an instrument or condition of the sacrament."

    See the theological study previously posted by Joe Cupertino and Sean Johnson:
    https://isidore.co/CalibreLibrary/de%20Salvo,%20Rev.%20Raphael,%20O.S.B.,%20S.T.L_/The%20Dogmatic%20Theology%20on%20the%20Intention%20of%20the%20Minister%20in%20the%20Confection%20of%20the%20Sacraments%20(8681)/The%20Dogmatic%20Theology%20on%20the%20Intention%20of%20-%20de%20Salvo,%20Rev.%20Raphael,%20O.S.B.,%20S.T.L_.pdf

    In the words of Ott (Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma): "Inadequacy of an intentio "mere externa": According to the almost general opinion of modern theologians, an inner intention(intentio interna) is necessary for the valid administration of the Sacraments. By intentio interna is meant an intention which is directed, not merely to the external execution of the sacramental rite, but also to its inner signification. The mere external intention... is insufficient."

    Sorry for all the emphasis, I was unable to remove the underscore!



    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Thoughts on the FSSP, Indult?
    « Reply #125 on: December 03, 2023, 07:17:53 AM »
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    The minister must have at least the intention to do what the Church does, and that means something more than just performing the action. If he follows a Catholic rite, it is presumed he has this intention
    You are correct but I meant it’s irrelevant for this discussion.  Old rite bishop, performing old rite sacraments…the best scenario we can hope for.

    On the contrary, someone argued that a “proper personal intention” can make up for the new rite deficiencies.  Totally wrong. 

    The point being, the personal intention is important but the Church's intention (as written in the rite) is vastly more important to validity.  And it can be seen, heard, proven…unlike the personal intention.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Thoughts on the FSSP, Indult?
    « Reply #126 on: December 04, 2023, 05:39:09 AM »
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  • I've attached extensive proof of the invalidity of the new rite of episcopal consecration and here's why the Novus Ordo rite of priestly ordination is as invaild as the Anglican rite: https://schismatic-home-aloner.com/new-rite-of-ordination-invalid/
    LOL, no bias at all with those sources. :laugh1::laugh1:
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Thoughts on the FSSP, Indult?
    « Reply #127 on: December 04, 2023, 05:58:49 AM »
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  • In the end, for us, for our own personal salvation and the salvation of those in our care, it does not matter one iota whether NO ordained priests and bishops are valid or not, anymore than it matters whether the one preaching a different Gospel is truly an angel from heaven (Gal 1:8) or not. We stay away from them without regard to their validity because to go to them puts our immortal souls in danger.

    I've read more than once where some of those posters insisting on automatic doubt=invalidity in this thread, said we can indeed go to them in an emergency, or in danger of death when a NO priest was all that was available. Personally, I still wouldn't.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Thoughts on the FSSP, Indult?
    « Reply #128 on: December 04, 2023, 08:05:03 AM »
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  • Quote
    insisting on automatic doubt=invalidity
    :confused:  That's not what we're saying at all.  If you think the above, it explains why this conversation has been a chaotic mess.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Thoughts on the FSSP, Indult?
    « Reply #129 on: December 04, 2023, 08:12:14 AM »
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  • :confused:  That's not what we're saying at all.  If you think the above, it explains why this conversation has been a chaotic mess.
    Pax Vobis:
    A Church that can promulgate for the entire Roman rite an ordination ritual that is of doubtful validity, or, as in the case of the ordinations of bishops, definitely invalid, is most certainly not the Roman Catholic Church, for in this matter the Church is infallible through the special assistance of the Holy Ghost:
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Thoughts on the FSSP, Indult?
    « Reply #130 on: December 04, 2023, 08:21:13 AM »
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  • A Church that can promulgate for the entire Roman rite an ordination ritual that is of doubtful validity, or, as in the case of the ordinations of bishops, definitely invalid, is most certainly not the Roman Catholic Church, for in this matter the Church is infallible through the special assistance of the Holy Ghost:

    This is a correct statement.  It's also the reasoning Michael Davies (correctly) used to assert that NO Orders are valid.  Problem is that he begs the question that the Conciliar hierarchy are the legitimate Catholic hierarchy.  And this is one reason why the SSPX have always treaded carefully about NO Orders.  If you're 100% sure that the V2 hierarch is legit, then you have no reason to perform conditional ordinations.  So questioning the inherent validity of the new rites would necessarily dovetail with the question of sedevacantism, which they desperately want to avoid.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Thoughts on the FSSP, Indult?
    « Reply #131 on: December 04, 2023, 08:35:18 AM »
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    A Church that can promulgate for the entire Roman rite an ordination ritual that is of doubtful validity, or, as in the case of the ordinations of bishops, an ordination ritual that is of doubtful validity, or, as in the case of the ordinations of bishops, definitely invalid, is most certainly not the Roman Catholic Church, for in this matter the Church is infallible through the special assistance of the Holy Ghost:
    Yes and no.  It's not that simple.

    1.  You would be absolutely correct, without question, if...the new rites were the ONLY rites.  If the modernists had explicitly outlawed the old rites.  But they didn't.  So there's parallel rites in existence.
    2.  This parallel situation is unique.  We know the old rites are 100% legit and from the Holy Ghost.  Even the V2 modernists (every single V2 pope) has allowed the true rites to be used, in various situations.
    3.  The new church is advocating for BOTH rites; but obviously pushing the new rites and simply allowing the old in very limited cases (i.e. Ecclesia Dei/indult).
    4.  So we have a situation where you can choose 100% valid rites or doubtful ones.  The choice is clear.

    Your statement only works if the new rites were the ONLY ones used in all of new-rome, for the last 50 years.  But the dual rite situation makes it clear that the new rites don't have the infallibility protection, nor are necessarily from Holy Mother Church, nor....and this is the most important point...are they "promulgated for the entire Roman church" because the old rites can still be used, thus the new rites are not required, nor commanded, nor an obligation.  Thus, they are not "approved rites" in the historical sense of the term.  Non-approved rites have no protection from the Holy Ghost.

    Offline Marulus Fidelis

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    Re: Thoughts on the FSSP, Indult?
    « Reply #132 on: December 04, 2023, 09:39:37 AM »
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  • LOL, no bias at all with those sources. :laugh1::laugh1:
    Everyone trying to be a Catholic is affected by this issue or biased in some sense, however, "Fr." Hesse is uniquely impartial on this issue because the validity of his own orders is directly at stake. 

    An ulterior motive can be construed for pretty much anyone from the Society being unable to dialogue with a 'pope' that isn't even a bishop to sedevacantists looking for another proof of the invalidity of the antipopes, however, as I said, Hesse is pretty much the only person who has a whole another level of bias.

    That doesn't mean we shouldn't listen to his arguments, but, as I tried to point out to MV, following him merely on his own authority is ludicrous.

    In any case, to anyone of good will it's clear there is nothing to be gained by trusting in the validity of the new rites and everything to be lost. Literally everything.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Thoughts on the FSSP, Indult?
    « Reply #133 on: December 04, 2023, 10:56:38 AM »
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  • Everyone trying to be a Catholic is affected by this issue or biased in some sense, however, "Fr." Hesse is uniquely impartial on this issue because the validity of his own orders is directly at stake.

    An ulterior motive can be construed for pretty much anyone from the Society being unable to dialogue with a 'pope' that isn't even a bishop to sedevacantists looking for another proof of the invalidity of the antipopes, however, as I said, Hesse is pretty much the only person who has a whole another level of bias.

    That doesn't mean we shouldn't listen to his arguments, but, as I tried to point out to MV, following him merely on his own authority is ludicrous.

    In any case, to anyone of good will it's clear there is nothing to be gained by trusting in the validity of the new rites and everything to be lost. Literally everything.
    Well, he unbiasedly explained, clearly, why *he believes* the NO ordination rite is valid when it is done by the book.

     He explained how the NO rite is worded even more clearly than the old rite. He explained why the Church always initially presumes validity; "when there is doubt, the Church always sides with the sacrament." He explained the sacrament is valid when done by the book using himself as example when he said; "I was validly ordained in a schismatic church." He compared this to the valid orders in the schismatic Orthodox church.

    He had no bias in that recording because what he did was quote numerous popes showing what the Church has always taught in the matter. He even touched on the whole "ut" issue two or three times I think.

    And there is still those among us who preach NO invalidity and also that it's perfectly acceptable in an emergency to have a NO priest give NO last rites when the only priest available is a NO priest. So there's that.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Thoughts on the FSSP, Indult?
    « Reply #134 on: December 04, 2023, 11:11:44 AM »
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    An ulterior motive can be construed for pretty much anyone from the Society being unable to dialogue with a 'pope' that isn't even a bishop to sedevacantists looking for another proof of the invalidity of the antipopes, however, as I said, Hesse is pretty much the only person who has a whole another level of bias.
    Exactly.

    Quote
    That doesn't mean we shouldn't listen to his arguments, but, as I tried to point out to MV, following him merely on his own authority is ludicrous.
    Yes.

    Quote
    In any case, to anyone of good will it's clear there is nothing to be gained by trusting in the validity of the new rites and everything to be lost. Literally everything.
    Right.