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Author Topic: Thoughts on the FSSP, Indult?  (Read 27893 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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Re: Thoughts on the FSSP, Indult?
« Reply #105 on: December 01, 2023, 07:33:37 AM »
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    • I would suggest starting at about the 7:50 mark and listen from there for a few minutes, after that he veers onto talking about other sacraments before coming back to the new rite of ordination at some point later in the talk.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Thoughts on the FSSP, Indult?
    « Reply #106 on: December 01, 2023, 08:43:26 AM »
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    • Fr Hesse is certainly NOT impartial on the matter, being he was part of the novus ordo for years.  An old rite Bishop ordaining in the new rite is much, much more safe than a new rite "bishop" ordaining in the old rite.  Again, the most problematic issue is the new rite consecration of bishops.  If such are invalid (and there's a high doubt they are), then whether they ordain in the old/new rite doesn't matter.
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    Offline Gunter

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    Re: Thoughts on the FSSP, Indult?
    « Reply #107 on: December 01, 2023, 09:07:36 AM »
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    • Either way Fr. Hesse was brilliant.   
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Thoughts on the FSSP, Indult?
    « Reply #108 on: December 01, 2023, 09:20:10 AM »
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    • Quote from: Gunter on December 01, 2023, 09:07:36 AM
    Either way Fr. Hesse was brilliant. 

    Well, I think he gave off airs of being brilliant, due to his deameanor and tone, but some of his theological conclusions seem strange and convoluted ... somehow off.
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    Offline Gunter

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    Re: Thoughts on the FSSP, Indult?
    « Reply #109 on: December 01, 2023, 09:30:08 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on December 01, 2023, 09:20:10 AM
    Well, I think he gave off airs of being brilliant, due to his deameanor and tone, but some of his theological conclusions seem strange and convoluted ... somehow off.
    Probably the American wine talking.   Nothing like the motherland lol.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Thoughts on the FSSP, Indult?
    « Reply #110 on: December 01, 2023, 10:06:49 AM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on December 01, 2023, 08:43:26 AM
    Fr Hesse is certainly NOT impartial on the matter, being he was part of the novus ordo for years.  An old rite Bishop ordaining in the new rite is much, much more safe than a new rite "bishop" ordaining in the old rite.  Again, the most problematic issue is the new rite consecration of bishops.  If such are invalid (and there's a high doubt they are), then whether they ordain in the old/new rite doesn't matter.
    None of us are impartial. You certainly aren't impartial yourself Pax.
    What he is doing is citing authoritative sources, except for those times where he specifically states that what he is saying is his opinion - watch the first part of the video.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Thoughts on the FSSP, Indult?
    « Reply #111 on: December 01, 2023, 12:31:12 PM »
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    • Quote from: Plenus Venter on November 30, 2023, 05:40:18 PM
    Hi Angelus, thank you for the comment. Let me clarify: are you saying that if there is a true bishop ordaining, who has the intention to do what the Church does, makes use of correct matter and the essential form of the sacrament, that is not sufficient to produce a priest?
    PV, in that case the ordinand would definitely have “the character,” the indelible mark. 

    But Aquinas says that there are two other things that occur in the sacrament of Holy Orders, properly accomplished: 1) an increase in sanctifying grace, and 2) the “powers” specific to the particular level of Order.

    A deacon receives the “character” but different “powers“ than a priest. Reference must be made to the full Rite to determine what “powers” an ordinand is granted by the Bishop. 

    Again, Aquinas explains this in the section on Holy Orders in the ST. 

    What the NewChurch has done is convince everyone that all that matters is the validity of the indelible “character.” That is not true. So taking advantage of the ignorance, the New Church has created a set of parallel, defective, counterfeit levels of Holy Order. What the NewChurch call a “priest” and “bishop” are bad, not because they aren’t “valid.” Instead, the new “orders” are bad because the don’t effect the same “powers” as the traditional counterparts. 
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Thoughts on the FSSP, Indult?
    « Reply #112 on: December 01, 2023, 01:06:27 PM »
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    • Quote
    You certainly aren't impartial yourself Pax.
    I'm not a cleric, and a WISH the Church were not so complicated and I WISH that new rites were 'morally certain' to be valid.  Life would be SO MUCH EASIER.  But the evidence is overwhelming that new rites are probably invalid.

    Yes, I'm much more impartial than Fr Hesse (as much as I like him).  He grew up in the novus ordo.  There's a certain part of everyone who doesn't like to admit they were duped; this is especially true of V2 clerics, who would have to make a supreme act of humility to admit the possibility that their clerical lives before Tradition were a sham.  Few want to admit this, and the new-sspx caters to these people, so they don't rock the boat with new rome.

    Let's not forget that the +Fellay-run sspx is the one muddying the waters of this issue.  99.9% of non-sspx Trads (i.e. Sedes and Independents) wouldn't hesitate 1 second to tell a novus ordo priest they need to get conditionally re-ordained.  This is the only rational response to such a situation.  But it's the new-sspx who is playing with fire, playing both sides and trying their best "Pope Benedict" impression by trying to marry Traditionalism with V2.

    The new-sspx tries to play mind games and tell everyone they have some "super secret" investigation process which gives them some type of "better answer" than anyone else.  It's all BS.  It's all politics.  If they really cared about the Faith, they would insist on conditional sacraments.  They don't know anything more than any other of the educated Trads who have studied the matter both past and present.

    And now, finally, this horrible "policy" of the new-sspx is coming home to roost, in allowing "bishop" Huonder to run around blessing holy oils and doing confirmations.  This is a RED LIGHT move by the new-sspx, wherein they are actively attacking Truth and the Faith, in my opinion.

    You start screwing around with the sacraments, and propping up fake bishops, and you are no better than the V2 modernists.  In fact, you are worse, because you are a supposed to be the "good sheep" but you act like wolves. 
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    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Thoughts on the FSSP, Indult?
    « Reply #113 on: December 01, 2023, 08:42:20 PM »
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    • Quote from: Angelus on December 01, 2023, 12:31:12 PM
    PV, in that case the ordinand would definitely have “the character,” the indelible mark.

    But Aquinas says that there are two other things that occur in the sacrament of Holy Orders, properly accomplished: 1) an increase in sanctifying grace, and 2) the “powers” specific to the particular level of Order.

    A deacon receives the “character” but different “powers“ than a priest. Reference must be made to the full Rite to determine what “powers” an ordinand is granted by the Bishop.

    Again, Aquinas explains this in the section on Holy Orders in the ST.

    What the NewChurch has done is convince everyone that all that matters is the validity of the indelible “character.” That is not true. So taking advantage of the ignorance, the New Church has created a set of parallel, defective, counterfeit levels of Holy Order. What the NewChurch call a “priest” and “bishop” are bad, not because they aren’t “valid.” Instead, the new “orders” are bad because the don’t effect the same “powers” as the traditional counterparts.
    Ah, Angelus, I fear you are confusing the issue. If you have a true bishop intending to do what the Church does, pronouncing the essential form for the sacrament of ordination of a priest plus the required matter, then you really do have a priest. It really is that simple. What is required for a valid sacrament? A valid minister, correct matter, form and intention. Nothing more, nothing less. That is for validity. That is what we are dealing with here.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Thoughts on the FSSP, Indult?
    « Reply #114 on: December 02, 2023, 05:37:45 AM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on December 01, 2023, 01:06:27 PM
    I'm not a cleric, and a WISH the Church were not so complicated and I WISH that new rites were 'morally certain' to be valid.  Life would be SO MUCH EASIER.  But the evidence is overwhelming that new rites are probably invalid.
    Pax, all I can tell you is to listen to what Fr. Hesse says around the 50 minute mark, 10 - 15 minutes of your time should be plenty. I don't have time to transcribe what he says there, but if you take the few minutes to listen, I am pretty sure you will understand why the things you've been saying are incorrect.

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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline MonsieurValentine

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    Re: Thoughts on the FSSP, Indult?
    « Reply #115 on: December 02, 2023, 07:38:32 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on December 02, 2023, 05:37:45 AM
    Pax, all I can tell you is to listen to what Fr. Hesse says around the 50 minute mark, 10 - 15 minutes of your time should be plenty. I don't have time to transcribe what he says there, but if you take the few minutes to listen, I am pretty sure you will understand why the things you've been saying are incorrect.
    So, I've listened to this talk by Fr. Hesse and if I'm to understand correctly he claims the new rite ordinations ARE valid. This runs contrary to a lot of the opinions offered throughout this thread. 
    Now, if Fr Hesse, who probably forgot more about canon law than any of us here will ever know, believes
    the orders of FSSP priests are valid, why should I require any more proof?
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    Offline trento

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    Re: Thoughts on the FSSP, Indult?
    « Reply #116 on: December 02, 2023, 12:12:58 PM »
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    • It's also significant that at 55.18 onwards, Fr. Hesse mentioned he checked with Bishop Fellay, Fr. Schmidberger, Bishop Williamson, and Bishop Tissier about getting reordained and he claimed that all of them rejected the request.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Thoughts on the FSSP, Indult?
    « Reply #117 on: December 02, 2023, 12:54:34 PM »
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    • Quote
    If you have a true bishop intending to do what the Church does, pronouncing the essential form for the sacrament of ordination of a priest plus the required matter, then you really do have a priest.
    A true Bishop cannot “intend to do what the Church does” if he uses a faulty rite.  The Church’s intention is WRITTEN into the rite.  The Bishop's “personal” intention is irrelevant.  A heretic, agnostic, fallen-away true bishop can ordain validly.  Why?  Because they only intention that matters is the Church’s, which is part of the rite/prayers.  
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Thoughts on the FSSP, Indult?
    « Reply #118 on: December 02, 2023, 12:56:08 PM »
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    • Quote
    Now, if Fr Hesse, who probably forgot more about canon law than any of us here will ever know, believes

    the orders of FSSP priests are valid, why should I require any more proof?
    Uhhh…because this problem is a doctrinal/theological one, not solvable by canon law.  Fr Hesse is not an expert in the sacramental field. 
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Thoughts on the FSSP, Indult?
    « Reply #119 on: December 02, 2023, 12:58:17 PM »
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    • Quote
    Fr. Hesse mentioned he checked with Bishop Fellay, Fr. Schmidberger, Bishop Williamson, and Bishop Tissier about getting reordained and he claimed that all of them rejected the request.
    That’s because Fr Hesse was allegedly ordained by a true rite bishop.  So there’s way less of a problem.  


    The debate is whether or not a new rite “bishop” can validly ordain using the new rite.  Most Trads say no, because his bishop status is doubtful. 
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