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Author Topic: Thoughts on FSSP  (Read 1294 times)

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Offline BernardoGui

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Thoughts on FSSP
« on: November 27, 2022, 06:54:43 AM »
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  • Forgive me if this has been covered before but there is an FSSP church nearby that offers
    the Latin mass which I've been attending, but in these confusing times
    I have no idea if the priest was validly ordained.
    The priest seems like a kind and devout man though his sermons are consistently
    forgettable. I can deal with that so long as the sacraments are legit



    Offline Gunter

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    Re: Thoughts on FSSP
    « Reply #1 on: November 27, 2022, 09:11:17 AM »
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  • If you believe that the enemies of the Church are as St. Pope Pius x said figuratively "to be beaten with fist", I would avoid receiving sacraments from novus ordo ordained clergyman.  We cannot resist lawful authority unless for serious reasons.   Those who made the new religion in their image and likeness are like Judas, seeking to marry worldly compromise with Jesus Christ.  So as good the intentions that  conservative novus ordites have, they need to fix the doubtful holy orders issued from the modernist.   We have good will for those with the problem but it will be up to them to seek the solution.


    Offline BernardoGui

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    Re: Thoughts on FSSP
    « Reply #2 on: November 27, 2022, 09:23:08 AM »
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  • If you believe that the enemies of the Church are as St. Pope Pius x said figuratively "to be beaten with fist", I would avoid receiving sacraments from novus ordo ordained clergyman.  We cannot resist lawful authority unless for serious reasons.  Those who made the new religion in their image and likeness are like Judas, seeking to marry worldly compromise with Jesus Christ.  So as good the intentions that  conservative novus ordites have, they need to fix the doubtful holy orders issued from the modernist.  We have good will for those with the problem but it will be up to them to seek the solution.
    So you are saying that FSSP are essentially novus ordo with some Latin sprinkled on?

    Offline Gunter

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    Re: Thoughts on FSSP
    « Reply #3 on: November 27, 2022, 09:39:52 AM »
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  • They have priest's ordained by novus ordo Bishop's.  Fix that problem and you wouldn't have a problem.  Sspx is headed in the same direction.  

    Offline WorldsAway

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    Re: Thoughts on FSSP
    « Reply #4 on: November 27, 2022, 09:43:01 AM »
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  • So you are saying that FSSP are essentially novus ordo with some Latin sprinkled on?
    They offer the Tridentine Mass, but I believe the problem lies in their ordinations (Novus Ordo rite) and Episcopal Consecrations (Novus Ordo rite). I am not very knowledgeable on the subject, but if I remember correctly the essential form of the NO episcopal consecrations is taken from a prayer for a Patriarch who has already been consecrated a bishop, and it does not clearly confer the duties (or what have you) that a Bishop receives upon his consecration. Someone could probably give you a better explanation than I, I'll look around for some sources
    If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you [John 15:19]


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Thoughts on FSSP
    « Reply #5 on: November 27, 2022, 09:44:47 AM »
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  • So you are saying that FSSP are essentially novus ordo with some Latin sprinkled on?
    The deciding factor for Archbishop Lefebvre to consecrate the 4 bishops was when he was finally convinced that  Rome never had any intentions nor would it ever supply his SSPX with their own trad bishop(s).

    It was the very next day that the FSSP was born using  10 or 12 SSPX priests and 15 - 20 SSPX seminarians, these SSPXers comprised all of the original members of the FSSP, suffice to say being ordained by conciliar bishops did not matter to them - but it certainly did to +ABL.

    What else needs to be said?

    Oh, and till this day the FSSP still do not have a trad bishop.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline BernardoGui

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    Re: Thoughts on FSSP
    « Reply #6 on: November 27, 2022, 09:51:38 AM »
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  • Ok, I'm just getting some clarity about the origin and evolution of the SSPX thanks to the recent multipart
    interview with Bishop Williamson. 
    If I'm to understand correctly the general consensus here is that the FSSP was an offshoot of the 
    SSPX but their priests differ in that they were ordained by novus ordo bishops, therefore all the times I've been to
    confession and communion at an FSSP church has been for naught?

    Offline de Lugo

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    Re: Thoughts on FSSP
    « Reply #7 on: November 27, 2022, 09:53:08 AM »
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  • Forgive me if this has been covered before but there is an FSSP church nearby that offers
    the Latin mass which I've been attending, but in these confusing times
    I have no idea if the priest was validly ordained.
    The priest seems like a kind and devout man though his sermons are consistently
    forgettable. I can deal with that so long as the sacraments are legit

    For what its worth, Msgr. Williamson's most recent comments on the subject of the validity of the new rite of episcopal consecration at 25:54-


     

    Of course, there are many other issues involved in attending St. Peter Masses and churches, but you mentioned sacramental validity. so...
    Noblesse oblige.


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Thoughts on FSSP
    « Reply #8 on: November 27, 2022, 10:08:39 AM »
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  • Ok, I'm just getting some clarity about the origin and evolution of the SSPX thanks to the recent multipart
    interview with Bishop Williamson.
    If I'm to understand correctly the general consensus here is that the FSSP was an offshoot of the
    SSPX but their priests differ in that they were ordained by novus ordo bishops, therefore all the times I've been to
    confession and communion at an FSSP church has been for naught?
    Well, you can't really say that with certainty, anymore than you can say the opposite with certainty. This is due to there being good reason to doubt the validity of perhaps all NO ordinations, but perhaps not all NO ordinations. This is the reason why +ABL wanted Rome to guarantee that they would supply his SSPX with their own bishops - so as to remove all doubt.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Gunter

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    Re: Thoughts on FSSP
    « Reply #9 on: November 27, 2022, 10:24:53 AM »
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  • Bishop Williamson's explanation on validity is coherent.  My issue with many of the controversies is when Archbishop Lefebvre's opinion is always the final truth.  It seems presumptuous and clingy to not argue the Church Fathers, or encyclicals, or Tradition.  As faithful a servant the Archbishop was, he wasn't the only cleric that was faithful to the Church.

    Offline BernardoGui

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    Re: Thoughts on FSSP
    « Reply #10 on: November 27, 2022, 10:27:20 AM »
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  • Well, you can't really say that with certainty, anymore than you can say the opposite with certainty. This is due to there being good reason to doubt the validity of perhaps all NO ordinations, but perhaps not all NO ordinations. This is the reason why +ABL wanted Rome to guarantee that they would supply his SSPX with their own bishops - so as to remove all doubt.
    Well, since even knowledgable Trads acknowledge there is no certainty except for SPPX ordained priests I should avoid the FSSP?


    Offline de Lugo

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    Re: Thoughts on FSSP
    « Reply #11 on: November 27, 2022, 10:45:37 AM »
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  • Ok, I'm just getting some clarity about the origin and evolution of the SSPX thanks to the recent multipart
    interview with Bishop Williamson.
    If I'm to understand correctly the general consensus here is that the FSSP was an offshoot of the
    SSPX but their priests differ in that they were ordained by novus ordo bishops, therefore all the times I've been to
    confession and communion at an FSSP church has been for naught?

    Mmmm....

    It's hard to imagine going to hell on a technicality (particularly in the crisis in the Church today), since that would seem to contradict God's perfect justice and charity. 

    If even the best theologians in Tradition (Msgr. Williamson mentions Abbe Pierre-Marie of the Avrille Dominicains and Abbe Calderon of the FSSPX) can only arrive at a "probable" answer, than what are men like you and I to do?

    Only my opinion, but I can see God judging us by the lights and graces He gives us, and the degree to which, once they are known to us, we cooperate or oppose their effecaciousness.

    Are 9 year-old boys expected to successfully wrestle -and correctly resolve- issues the theologians are divided on, or on matters in which they can only arrive at probable conclusions?  Because their parents took him to a chapel with only probably valid priests?  Or does invincible ignorance mitigate culpability?  Almost certainly, to one degree or another.  If not, protestant predestination would rule, since such people would never have had a chance to save their souls (which is against the Faith).

    In your case, you are in the beginning stages of learning there is a dispute and a doubt/controversy (perhaps minor, but a doubt nonetheless).  Instead of worrying about your past sacraments, consider what you must do to remove yourself from the doubt: Receive the sacraments of a priest about whom there is no doubt. 

    Perhaps that is why God has introduced you to this doubt (i.e., it is a grace, although it feels like an uncomfortable perplexity)?

    Every time you open a book, or read an article to learn the truth, it is an implicit act of love of God (in fact it is the spirituality of the Dominicains to "find God in the books").  The hunt for truth is a cooperation with (actual) grace, and it pleases God to see you race to obtain Him.  When you move toward Him, He moved toward you.  That's an encouraging and consoling thought.

    If you should die 5 minutes before you find your answer, if is difficult to believe God damns you, presuming you did your part, an were found fighting.

    I think after some more time, reflection, counsel, and prayer (this doesn't usually all happen in a day, and certainly not from reading a few internt posts) you will arrive at a peaceful and tranquil conviction that receiving certainly valid sacraments from certainly valid priests is a no-lose proposition.

    If you are hung up on the legal aspect/scruples regarding ordinary jurisdiction, the FSSPX would be a place for you to park and study for a while.  They have their issues, but certainly valid sacraments and jurisdiction are not among them. 

    I'm sure some here will have issues with what I said above, here or there, but I'm just talking to you personally, and telling you what I think.  It may not be impeccable advice.
    Noblesse oblige.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Thoughts on FSSP
    « Reply #12 on: November 27, 2022, 10:58:11 AM »
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  • Quote
    Bishop Williamson's explanation on validity is coherent.  My issue with many of the controversies is when Archbishop Lefebvre's opinion is always the final truth.  It seems presumptuous and clingy to not argue the Church Fathers, or encyclicals, or Tradition.  As faithful a servant the Archbishop was, he wasn't the only cleric that was faithful to the Church.


    In the pre-SSPX days of late 60s when the changes were first introduced, along with the changes came many, new and feminized, liberal, modernist priests - we avoided them based on how they acted, like fαɢs and otherwise not at all like priests before them acted.

    So +ABL was only one among many who had good reason to doubt validity, and, as time proves, his doubts were just as justified then as now.

    Whether the new rite "as written" is valid or not is secondary, as +Williamson alluded to, even if the new rite is valid, validity can also depend upon if the rubrics are actually correctly followed, or if the consecrating bishop veers off script and skips parts / uses his own ideas for rubrics. Again, in such cases validity might or might not be affected.....which, again, is why +ABL wanted his own trad bishops for his SSPX.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline de Lugo

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    Re: Thoughts on FSSP
    « Reply #13 on: November 27, 2022, 11:05:48 AM »
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  • Bishop Williamson's explanation on validity is coherent.  My issue with many of the controversies is when Archbishop Lefebvre's opinion is always the final truth.  It seems presumptuous and clingy to not argue the Church Fathers, or encyclicals, or Tradition.  As faithful a servant the Archbishop was, he wasn't the only cleric that was faithful to the Church.

    Certainly.  Msgr. Williamson, in the interview you mention, acknowledges Msgr. Lefebvre had his faults, and Msgr. Lefebvre himself said that after he read Fr. Barbara's book, he regretted not giving his seminarists a more radical, counterrevolutionary formation.  
    Noblesse oblige.

    Offline BernardoGui

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    Re: Thoughts on FSSP
    « Reply #14 on: November 27, 2022, 11:07:23 AM »
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  • Mmmm....

    It's hard to imagine going to hell on a technicality (particularly in the crisis in the Church today), since that would seem to contradict God's perfect justice and charity. 

    If even the best theologians in Tradition (Msgr. Williamson mentions Abbe Pierre-Marie of the Avrille Dominicains and Abbe Calderon of the FSSPX) can only arrive at a "probable" answer, than what are men like you and I to do?

    Only my opinion, but I can see God judging us by the lights and graces He gives us, and the degree to which, once they are known to us, we cooperate or oppose their effecaciousness.

    Are 9 year-old boys expected to successfully wrestle -and correctly resolve- issues the theologians are divided on, or on matters in which they can only arrive at probable conclusions?  Because their parents took him to a chapel with only probably valid priests?  Or does invincible ignorance mitigate culpability?  Almost certainly, to one degree or another.  If not, protestant predestination would rule, since such people would never have had a chance to save their souls (which is against the Faith).

    In your case, you are in the beginning stages of learning there is a dispute and a doubt/controversy (perhaps minor, but a doubt nonetheless).  Instead of worrying about your past sacraments, consider what you must do to remove yourself from the doubt: Receive the sacraments of a priest about whom there is no doubt. 

    Perhaps that is why God has introduced you to this doubt (i.e., it is a grace, although it feels like an uncomfortable perplexity)?

    Every time you open a book, or read an article to learn the truth, it is an implicit act of love of God (in fact it is the spirituality of the Dominicains to "find God in the books").  The hunt for truth is a cooperation with (actual) grace, and it pleases God to see you race to obtain Him.  When you move toward Him, He moved toward you.  That's an encouraging and consoling thought.

    If you should die 5 minutes before you find your answer, if is difficult to believe God damns you, presuming you did your part, an were found fighting.

    I think after some more time, reflection, counsel, and prayer (this doesn't usually all happen in a day, and certainly not from reading a few internt posts) you will arrive at a peaceful and tranquil conviction that receiving certainly valid sacraments from certainly valid priests is a no-lose proposition.

    If you are hung up on the legal aspect/scruples regarding ordinary jurisdiction, the FSSPX would be a place for you to park and study for a while.  They have their issues, but certainly valid sacraments and jurisdiction are not among them. 

    I'm sure some here will have issues with what I said above, here or there, but I'm just talking to you personally, and telling you what I think.  It may not be impeccable advice.
    I'm very grateful for taking the time to respond. Your answer was very insightful. God Bless