Author Topic: Those who have apostatized from the Faith enormous difficulty to return  (Read 1836 times)

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Offline Neil Obstat

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How many places can you find in Scripture where it is to be seen the following doctrine?



"It is very hard for such as have
apostatized from the Faith,
after having received many graces,
to return again to the happy state
from whence they fell."
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Some say it is well-nigh impossible.  

Certainly, one cannot be re-baptized so as to achieve such a return!

For it is obviously impossible for such as have fallen after Baptism,
to be again baptized.  

That may have been the sense traditionally viewed in the main, for
such Scriptural material, however, now IN THE LIGHT OF VATICAN II..

(that is, properly understood! -- the "light of Vat.II" shows
us the BAD FRUIT and by the bad fruit we can know them)

..We have some adjustments to make!

No longer may we get away with extracting only the principle of
no re-baptism;  while it is very true, it is nonetheless inadequate
in this faithless generation!

For now, it is well-nigh totally out of the question to expect
the wholesale re-conversion of a truly anti-Church as a whole
and likewise of its leading proponents, and this we can base
on Holy Scripture itself.  

Therefore, the words of +W in his recent EC (last week) in
which he touches on the latent hope of Rome's conversion, and
this week where he states that he has been lying low for a year
in wait for such prospects, yet none are forthcoming:  "...to
watch and wait to see how things would develop within the
SSPX, but they are not getting any better, alas," are to be
better understood,


IN THE LIGHT OF VATICAN II!!


He could easily quote St. Paul as he is often wont to do, but
perhaps he's waiting for a more powerful moment:  

"For it is impossible for those who were once illuminated,
have tasted also the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of
the Holy Ghost, have moreover tasted the good word of God,
and the powers of the world to come, and are fallen away:  to
be renewed again to penance,
crucifying again
themselves to the Son of God, and making him a mockery."


One foreign language translation of this Scripture lends an
interesting touch to it here:

"As for those people who were once brought into the light,
and tasted the gift from heaven, and received a share of the
Holy Spirit [should be 'Ghost'], and appreciated the good
message of God and the powers of the world to come and
yet in spite of this have fallen away -- it is impossible for
them to be renewed a second time" (Heb. vi. 4-6).



_________________________________________________



One is also reminded of the admonition of Our Lord in Matt.
xii. 43-45:  "And when an unclean spirit is gone out of a
man, he walketh through dry places seeking rest and
findeth none.  Then he saith, I will return into my house
from whence I came out.  And coming he findeth it empty,
swept, and garnished.  Then he goeth, and taketh with him
seven other spirits more wicked than himself,  and they
enter in and dwell there:  and the last state of that man is
made worse than the first.  So shall it be also to this
wicked generation.
"




If one good turn deserves another, then why would not one
unclean spirit deserve seven more?  And if Our Lord's words
duly apply to our age, and I propose that they do, why would
not His terminology be equally apropos:  the unclean spirit
of Vatican II?




_________________________________________________



It is incumbent upon good Catholics in this time of conspicuous
apostasy to remain unconditionally loyal to the Faith of our
Fathers, and to unconditionally love the Church.  For as there
is no salvation outside the Church, so too, our loyalty and
fealty to God demands that we brook no restraint in our love
for his One, True Church.






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Offline Neil Obstat

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Those who have apostatized from the Faith enormous difficulty to return
« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2013, 12:05:13 PM »
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    The faith is our most precious possession.  

    All the material wealth of the world is but nothing compared to the
    Faith of Catholics.  

    But how many of us would prefer money, power or fame to the
    inestimable gift of the true Faith?  

    .
    .
    .

    And after all that, possession of the Faith is only good for this
    temporal life on earth.  For the moment you die, the faith becomes
    unnecessary.  It's one of the things you effectively leave behind,
    one of those things about which we say, "you can't take it with
    you."  This is very mysterious.  But it makes sense when you
    realize that upon your death, you face your particular judgment,
    and at that point, you don't need to believe what you can't see,
    because then you will be looking at it.  It will no longer be a
    matter of faith, but a matter of stark reality.  

    Someone once complained to Padre Pio that his friend didn't
    believe in hell.  He was having a hard time trying to convince his
    friend that hell exists, and was seeking Padre Pio's advice on what
    to do or what to say.  Padre Pio told him, "So, your friend doesn't
    believe in hell, does he?  Well, you can tell him that that's okay,
    because he will believe in it very well, the very moment that he
    goes there."

    Such a one could be someone who never had the faith, or he
    could be someone who has lost the faith.  But of the two, it
    would seem that the latter would suffer more in hell because he
    will endure the additional torment of knowing that he had once
    had the faith and he made no effort, or at least insufficient
    effort, to keep it intact and to protect it, for it was his most
    precious possession.  And now, he is going to spend eternity
    without the reward that comes to those who keep the faith here
    on earth.
     

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    Offline John

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    Those who have apostatized from the Faith enormous difficulty to return
    « Reply #2 on: October 12, 2013, 11:54:18 PM »
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  • Quote from: Neil Obstat
    .

    It is incumbent upon good Catholics in this time of conspicuous
    apostasy to remain unconditionally loyal to the Faith of our
    Fathers, and to unconditionally love the Church.  For as there
    is no salvation outside the Church, so too, our loyalty and
    fealty to God demands that we brook no restraint in our love
    for his One, True Church.


    For as there is no salvation OUTSIDE the Church, so too, as the new "pope" is outside the Church he can not lead one to salvation.

    Vatican II is a new religion that is OUTSIDE the Church. Yes or no?

    Does following it's leader, "pope" Francis "brook restraint in our love for God's One, True Church?
    [8] But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema. [9] As we said before, so now I say again: If any one preach to you a gospel, besides that which you have received, let him

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Those who have apostatized from the Faith enormous difficulty to return
    « Reply #3 on: October 13, 2013, 06:13:48 AM »
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    Dear John,

    Have you noticed that sedes cannot enter any discussion of the
    importance of the Faith without making primary focus on the
    validity of the current occupant of the office?  

    You're going to do what you're going to do, I know.  

    How can you evangelize with the prominent topic of your
    discontent -- who is going to be attracted to that?  

    I have a sede friend who asks me "But where is the Church?"
    When I tell him, "You can come to our catechism class," he
    scoffs and fumes.  Sedes are past maters at scoffing and
    fuming.  Do you think that is attractive?  

    When St. Francis Xavier converted millions of Asians in his
    travels, he didn't even know who the current pope was.  Nor
    was that important to him or his converts.  What we have is
    the doctrines of the Faith, and that's what we need to know,
    and that is what we need to share.  

    The most important thing for good Catholics, in this time of
    conspicuous apostasy, is to remain unconditionally loyal to
    the Faith of our Fathers, and to unconditionally love the
    Church.  For as there is no salvation outside the Church, so
    too, our loyalty and fealty to God demands that we brook no
    restraint in our love for his One, True Church.

    Quote

    Does following it's leader, "pope" Francis "brook restraint in our love for God's One, True Church"?



    When did I say we should "follow pope Francis" in his obvious
    defection from what is right, proper and holy?  If your father
    comes home drunk do you proclaim to the world that he is
    therefore no longer you father?  I would hope you don't "follow
    his example" and go out yourself and get DRUNK TOO!


    More:  

    What is the basis for an unconditional loyalty to the Faith and
    an unconditional love for the Church?  It is a good knowledge
    of the Faith, a thorough testing of heresies and steadfast
    adherence to the principles handed down to us from the
    Apostles, that is, by way of God's revelation.  

    Where does our Faith come from?  It comes from the
    Oecumenical Councils, with the popes at the head of the Church,
    and from the dogmatic definitions they have given as well,
    outside of the Councils.  That should be our focus.  

    We really need to abstain from all this bickering about the
    current pope, who is nothing short of an embarrassment to the
    Faith of Catholics.  It is not our place to pass judgment on the
    pope -- it never has been and it never will be.  This is our part
    in the current chastisement, and it is this message that listeners
    will sympathize with, not fuming discord and contention about
    how terrible it is.  Because everyone knows it's terrible!  

    This penchant for an inordinate preoccupation with complaining
    about the current pope serves no purpose but to make yourself
    miserable and to spread the misery.  

    This thread is about the enormous difficulty that anyone faces
    when he falls away from the Faith, for returning to it becomes
    well-nigh impossible.  Therefore, we must hold on to the true
    Faith in its essence, and practice our faith with JOY.  This is not
    an easy task, but since we are given to live in this age, it is
    just this that we are assigned to do.  

    I'm not just saying this because I think I have it all worked out,
    but because I am struggling with it myself.  We have all been
    called to this task because we are alive today, and this is when
    it's happening.  We are to honor and respect the pope, but we
    cannot follow him in his errors -- that's why we need to know
    what our Faith teaches.  

    Vatican II was an aberration.  The entire thing is not worth
    paying any attention to, but rather we have 20 good Councils
    that preceded it that we must go by.  In God's good time, the
    unclean spirit of Vat.II will be exposed, and a lot of exposure
    has already ocurred, only not from the Chair of Peter!  

    I share in your concern.  By human means, the prospect of
    Francis converting and becoming a good pope is not even
    imaginable!  But is that what we should be telling people who
    are inquisitive and want to enter the True Church?  

    I don't know.  What do you think?  Have you tried that?  Do
    you have any converts or potential converts who are
    interested in that message?  

    Vatican II is indeed a NEW RELIGION that is OUTSIDE THE
    CHURCH.  Yes!  The unclean spirit of Vat.II is the Grand
    Sewer of all heresies, the snake-pit of error!  


    Quote

    Pope St. Pius X described Modernism as a “congeries of all heresies,” by which he meant that the heresy is so radical and pregnant of falsity, that it effectually denies all supernatural truth, attacks all defined dogmas, and gathers unto itself every notion and ideology which are opposed to the Faith. (The connotation of the English word, “congeries,” is of a nest of snakes.)  In a different way, the same thing may be said of Liberalism, for this aberration so inverts revealed truth, that it subordinates God to man. We are not surprised, therefore, that the visage of Christ Himself has been blasphemously altered at the hands of those who have distorted His teaching.  [We are called to attempt to remember] the image of our Beloved Savior as it is found in the Gospels, and as the Church has imparted it to her children through the centuries, and a study of some of His parables as they relate to the Doctrine of Exclusive Salvation.  



    When Our Lady appeared to the shepherd children 96 years ago,
    she showed them hell.  What we have had since Vat.II is the
    Modernists in the Vatican and episcopal chancery offices worldwide
    leading souls directly there -- to HELL.  

    It is my intention to put down here a few ideas that can perhaps
    help us to see the terror and peril of falling away from the Faith of
    Catholics by not resisting the Modernist heresies.  

    I hope we can make it a productive discussion, based on Scripture
    and defined dogmas, and not just rabble-rouse over validity of
    Orders and episcopal consecrations, and reverse thinking over the
    untoward actions of recent popes.  



    What does Scripture say about apostasy?  

    Can you find some quotes to share with everyone?  

    Is that too much to ask?




    Let's please try to stay on topic.  There are plenty of other threads
    that do otherwise.  



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    Offline John

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    Those who have apostatized from the Faith enormous difficulty to return
    « Reply #4 on: October 13, 2013, 04:50:27 PM »
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  • Dear John,

     Have you noticed that sedes cannot enter any discussion of the
     importance of the Faith without making primary focus on the
     validity of the current occupant of the office?  

     You're going to do what you're going to do, I know.  

     How can you evangelize with the prominent topic of your
     discontent -- who is going to be attracted to that?  

     I have a sede friend who asks me "But where is the Church?"
     When I tell him, "You can come to our catechism class," he
     scoffs and fumes.  Sedes are past maters at scoffing and
     fuming.  Do you think that is attractive?  


    Based on your description of your "sedevacantist" friend, I think he fits more of a description of a "home-aloner". EVERY CMRI Church has catechism. Probably every SSPV Church as well. You just sound very uninformed. Scoffing and fuming are just false stereotypes that you assume and lyingly repeat here.  What is not attractive is the fact that the Vatican II "church" is OPPOSED to the Catholic Faith. I am interested in exactly how it is that you "evangelize" people into a "church" like Vatican II. Do you think the absence of a pope is the problem? The problem is that there is a FALSE RELIGION being taught and if you were Catholic, this would be anathema, an abomination, something hateful to you that could not be tolerated.

    When St. Francis Xavier converted millions of Asians in his
     travels, he didn't even know who the current pope was.  Nor
     was that important to him or his converts.  What we have is
     the doctrines of the Faith, and that's what we need to know,
     and that is what we need to share.  

     The most important thing for good Catholics, in this time of
     conspicuous apostasy, is to remain unconditionally loyal to
     the Faith of our Fathers, and to unconditionally love the
     Church.  For as there is no salvation outside the Church, so
     too, our loyalty and fealty to God demands that we brook no
     restraint in our love for his One, True Church

    That point is not even relevant because St. Francis Xavier just knew that the "pope was Catholic". Unfortunately your "pope" is anti-Catholic. I am pretty sure the North American Man Boy Love Association was not in control of the Catholic Church at that time. I also know they were not teaching Islam, Judaism, Protestantism and Atheism at every church in the world at that time (as Vatican II "churches" do now). Sedevacantists keep true to the Faith of our Fathers now. Are you actually claiming that they don't?

    What is the basis for an unconditional loyalty to the Faith and
     an unconditional love for the Church?  It is a good knowledge
     of the Faith, a thorough testing of heresies and steadfast
     adherence to the principles handed down to us from the
     Apostles, that is, by way of God's revelation.  

     Where does our Faith come from?  It comes from the
     Oecumenical Councils, with the popes at the head of the Church,
     and from the dogmatic definitions they have given as well,
     outside of the Councils.  That should be our focus.

    One could say that unconditional loyalty to the Faith is keeping the commandments. Our focus should be to avoid sin, frequent the sacraments, pray, admonish the sinner, help the needy...

    We really need to abstain from all this bickering about the
     current pope, who is nothing short of an embarrassment to the
     Faith of Catholics.  It is not our place to pass judgment on the
     pope -- it never has been and it never will be.  This is our part
     in the current chastisement, and it is this message that listeners
     will sympathize with, not fuming discord and contention about
     how terrible it is.  Because everyone knows it's terrible!  

     This penchant for an inordinate preoccupation with complaining
     about the current pope serves no purpose but to make yourself
     miserable and to spread the misery.  

    And which sedevacantist church have you ever been to where this happens? I have found no group of people more truly happy than the families who belong to my church and maybe once per YEAR Father will say something aggressive against the "pope".

    This thread is about the enormous difficulty that anyone faces
     when he falls away from the Faith, for returning to it becomes
     well-nigh impossible.  Therefore, we must hold on to the true
     Faith in its essence, and practice our faith with JOY.  This is not
     an easy task, but since we are given to live in this age, it is
     just this that we are assigned to do.  

     I'm not just saying this because I think I have it all worked out,
     but because I am struggling with it myself.  We have all been
     called to this task because we are alive today, and this is when
     it's happening.  We are to honor and respect the pope, but we
     cannot follow him in his errors -- that's why we need to know
     what our Faith teaches.  

     Vatican II was an aberration.  The entire thing is not worth
     paying any attention to, but rather we have 20 good Councils
     that preceded it that we must go by.  In God's good time, the
     unclean spirit of Vat.II will be exposed, and a lot of exposure
     has already ocurred, only not from the Chair of Peter!  

    It is nice to be able to say "the entire thing is not worth paying any attention to, but unfortunately a billion Catholics are heading to Hell in a handbasket because they are being led down the WRONG PATH BY FALSE LEADERS IN A FALSE CHURCH WITH NO CONNECTION TO CHRIST OR ST. PETER!!

    I share in your concern.  By human means, the prospect of
     Francis converting and becoming a good pope is not even
     imaginable!  But is that what we should be telling people who
     are inquisitive and want to enter the True Church?  

     I don't know.  What do you think?  Have you tried that?  Do
     you have any converts or potential converts who are
     interested in that message?  

     Vatican II is indeed a NEW RELIGION that is OUTSIDE THE
     CHURCH.  Yes!  The unclean spirit of Vat.II is the Grand
     Sewer of all heresies, the snake-pit of error.

    If you know this, then why would you LIE to people who you try to convert? Do you believe that people need to be hoodwinked and bamboozled into blindly believing something which you don't believe? that is called hypocrisy. I am sure if you are using this method that they are some great converts you have there.


     When Our Lady appeared to the shepherd children 96 years ago,
     she showed them hell.  What we have had since Vat.II is the
     Modernists in the Vatican and episcopal chancery offices worldwide
     leading souls directly there -- to HELL.  

     It is my intention to put down here a few ideas that can perhaps
     help us to see the terror and peril of falling away from the Faith of
     Catholics by not resisting the Modernist heresies.  

     I hope we can make it a productive discussion, based on Scripture
     and defined dogmas, and not just rabble-rouse over validity of
     Orders and episcopal consecrations, and reverse thinking over the
     untoward actions of recent popes.  

    I suggest you attend a CMRI church and the veil will be lifted from your understanding of sedevacantism. Until then, admit to everyone here who you attempt to poison with your pen against sedevacantists, that you really do not have the slightest idea about sedevacantists and you are going to try to learn!! By the way, condescension does not help.
    [8] But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema. [9] As we said before, so now I say again: If any one preach to you a gospel, besides that which you have received, let him


    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Those who have apostatized from the Faith enormous difficulty to return
    « Reply #5 on: October 14, 2013, 03:02:08 AM »
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    You really ought to learn how to use the Quote
    Feature on CI, John, then everyone could keep
    track of your incessant ramblings.


    You've called me a liar, which is calumny.  You have accused
    me falsely of leading people into the Vat.II 'church'.  You
    demand to know what CMRI chapels I have been to when it's
    none of your business, and you keep doing exactly what I
    figured you'd do, harp and moan about how the pope isn't
    the pope and the bishops aren't the bishops and the priests
    aren't the priests.  And the truth is something you can't
    stand so you complain about my use of the words that aptly
    describe what you're doing:  scoffing and fuming.  That's your
    favorite pastime, apparently.  


    Woops.  I'm not supposed to notice that!   :tv-disturbed: :scared2:


    You ought to look in the mirror and see:  that's all you have
    to say.  

    This thread is about where it says in Scripture that someone
    who has apostatized from the Faith will have a really hard
    time coming back from his error, and lo, all you have to
    offer is starting to look like evidence that's the truth,
    because you are finding it impossible to talk about this topic.  
    Maybe you don't like to read the Bible.  Okay, then you're
    making a mistake when you post in a thread that's all about
    Scripture!  That's YOUR mistake, not mine.  

    You keep trying to lash out with false accusations that have
    nothing to do with the topic.  Why don't you take your wild
    nonsense to another thread, where it's all over the place
    already, or is it that you just can't stand to see these things
    being pointed out because they hit too close to home?  
    Or is it just more fun to be a troll?   :gandalf:



    Hmmmm?    :scratchchin:                          



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    Offline John

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    Those who have apostatized from the Faith enormous difficulty to return
    « Reply #6 on: October 14, 2013, 08:34:43 AM »
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  • Calm down woman!
    are you going to answer?
    [8] But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema. [9] As we said before, so now I say again: If any one preach to you a gospel, besides that which you have received, let him

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Those who have apostatized from the Faith enormous difficulty to return
    « Reply #7 on: October 14, 2013, 12:01:35 PM »
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  • .

    You forgot -- again -- what this thread is for!
    I'm sorry to have to see that happen.  



    It must be very hard for you to keep your mind on the
    topic.
     It's sad to see that happening to you.  It must be
    very unpleasant.  You have my deepest sympathy, "Joan."

    And in some of your abundant spare time, try working on
    how to use the Quote feature.  Okay?

    And do try to remember the topic:  This thread is for
    Scripture that touches on how difficult it is for someone
    who has fallen away, to then return to the true Faith,
    and when they fail to convert again, what are the dire
    consequences that await them?




    Here is one:

    "Therefore behold I send to you prophets, and wise men,
    and scribes : and some of them you will put to death and
    crucify, and some you will scourge in your synagogues,
    and persecute from city to city...   Jerusalem, Jerusalem,
    thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them that are
    sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered together
    thy children, as the hen doth gather her chickens under
    her wings, and thou wouldest not?  Behold, your house
    shall be left to you, desolate"
    (Matt. xxiii. 34.37-38).  

    And another:

    "And when he drew near, seeing the city, he wept over it,
    saying :  If thou also hadst known, and that in this thy
    day, the things that are to thy peace;  but now they are
    hidden from thine eyes.  For the days shall come upon thee :
    and thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and
    compass thee round, and straiten thee on every side.  And
    beat thee flat to the ground, and thy children who are in
    thee : and they shall not leave in thee a stone upon a
    stone ;  because thou hast not known the time of thy
    visitation"
    (Lk. xix. 41-44).


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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Those who have apostatized from the Faith enormous difficulty to return
    « Reply #8 on: October 14, 2013, 12:54:58 PM »
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  • .

    That last Scripture, Lk. xix. 41-44, has a rather similar
    flavor to the warnings Our Lady brought to Fatima in 1917:

    If Her requests were not heeded, Russia would "spread her
    errors throughout the world, causing wars and persecutions
    of the Church. The good will be martyred, the Holy Father will
    have much to suffer, various nations will be annihilated."

    However, in His infinite mercy, God has offered us a way to
    avoid this terrible punishment. Through the consecration of
    Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary, we will not only
    avoid the predicted chastisements, but we will be granted the
    inestimable gift of peace throughout the world for all mankind.


    In St. Luke's Gospel, Our Lord mentions that these Jews who
    did not know the time of their visitation would suffer
    annihilation.  Jerusalem would be destroyed, and not a stone
    would be left upon a stone.
     The children of Jerusalem would
    be "beat... flat to the ground" just as would be the city they
    call "home."  How is that not a reminder of the words of Our
    Lady, 18 centuries later?  

    Our Lord did not offer any specific remedy to the Jews, but
    was there in person, giving his own life for their conversion.
    These days, we are given His Mother.  

    And as a loving mother is wont to do, Our Lady provides for
    us a way to save ourselves from annihilation -- which is a bit
    different from the approach that Jesus took, and it's not too
    difficult to see why.  

    In both cases, though, what is asked of man is humility.  
    To get "off his high horse" and to become docile to the
    teachings of God, His revelation.



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