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Offline Lover of Truth

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This Seemed Interesting
« on: August 29, 2012, 09:36:38 AM »
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  • The conciliar rite of episcopal consecration is invalid. Here is a very concise summary of this fact that was written by Father Louis J. Campbell, the pastor of Saint Jude Shrine in Stafford, Texas, in a sermon that he delivered last year:
    “Let no one lead you astray with empty words,” warns St. Paul in today’s Epistle (Eph.5:6). We must keep the faith, the faith of our fathers, handed on to us from the Apostles by saints and martyrs, the fathers and doctors of the Church, and holy popes and bishops. Now it is our turn to teach the faith, handing it on to the younger generation unchanged and untainted by heresy, lest the Church become the desolate kingdom spoken of by Our Lord in the Gospel.
     
    Many, “with empty words,” have tried to destroy the Catholic faith – Arius, Luther, Calvin and Cranmer, to name a few. Then came the Modernists, condemned by Pope St. Pius X, whose heresies lived on to be re-hatched at Vatican II by the liberal theologians, and canonized by the conciliar popes.
     
    If one were to set out to destroy the Catholic faith, a good place to begin would be to tamper with the Sacraments, the Sacrament of Baptism, for instance. But every well instructed Catholic knows that the essential rite of Baptism requires the pouring of water upon the head of the person (or immersing the person in the water) while saying the words: “I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost” (or Holy Spirit).
     
    If the priest baptizing were to say, “I pour upon you the life-giving waters of salvation, that you may share the life of the Holy Trinity,” we would know beyond the shadow of a doubt that the Sacrament was invalid, and that the person would have to be re-baptized using the form that is required for validity. We would not have to wait for the theologians to debate the matter, or for the Holy See to issue a decree of nullity. Any Catholic in his right mind would know that the attempted Baptism was invalid. Any attempt by the “liturgical experts” to change the essentials of the Sacrament would not have been tolerated by the Catholic faithful.  

    But consider some of the other sacraments. Most of us knew little of what was required, for instance, for the valid consecration of a bishop. In a ceremony rarely witnessed by most of the faithful, the Sacrament was administered in Latin amid mysterious and lengthy rites. Change the form of this Sacrament, and who would notice? Then what better way to destroy the Catholic Church than to render invalid the Sacrament of Holy Orders, since true bishops are absolutely necessary if the Church is to survive?    

    The essential matter and form for the valid consecration of a bishop was determined by Pope Pius XII on November 30, 1947, in the Apostolic Constitution Sacramentum Ordinis (Acta Apostolicae Sedis 40, 1948, 5-7), a docuмent which appears to have all the essential characteristics of infallibility. Even if it does not, it is certainly an authoritative docuмent, which Pope Pius expected to be taken most seriously. With the laying on of hands, the consecrating bishop was to say the words of the Preface, “of which,” says the pope, “the following are essential and therefore necessary for validity: ‘Fill up in Thy priest the perfection of Thy ministry and sanctify him with the dew of Thy heavenly ointment, this thy servant decked out with the ornaments of all beauty’” (Comple in sacerdote tuo ministerii tui summum, et ornamentis totius glorificationis instructum coelestis unguenti rore sanctifica).

    At the end of the docuмent Pope Pius XII states: “We teach, declare, and determine this, all persons not withstanding, no matter what special dignity they may have, and consequently we wish and order such in the Roman Pontifical... No one therefore is allowed to infringe upon this Constitution given by us, nor should anyone dare to have the audacity to contradict it...”

    Pope Pius XII’s body had hardly begun “a-mouldering in the grave” when the agents of change began working in earnest to destroy the Catholic faith. Paul VI, once the confidant and trusted friend of Pope Pius XII, had that “audacity to contradict” when he published his own decree in 1968. In vain did Pope Pius XII “teach, declare, and determine” what was required for the validity of the Sacrament of Orders. Paul VI would introduce entirely new words, requiring them for validity, words which were never used for the consecration of a bishop in the Roman Rite: “So now pour out upon this chosen one that power which is from you, the governing Spirit whom you gave to your beloved Son, Jesus Christ, the Spirit given by him to the holy apostles, who founded the Church in every place to be your temple for the unceasing glory and praise of your name” (Pontificalis Romani, June 18, 1968).

    As to why Paul VI found it necessary to discard the essential words of the traditional form of consecration and replace them with entirely different words, he says “…it was judged appropriate to take from ancient sources the consecratory prayer that is found in the docuмent called the Apostolic Tradition of Hippolytus of Rome, written at the beginning of the third century.”

    Judged appropriate? By whom? None other than Archbishop Annibale Bugnini and his associates of the “Consilium,” who invented the Novus Ordo Mass. And who on earth was Hippolytus of Rome? He was an anti-pope of the third century who separated from Rome because of doctrinal differences and established a schismatic church, although he later returned to the Catholic Church and died a martyr. Who knows but that his “Apostolic Tradition” was drawn up for his schismatic sect?

    And whatever became of Pope Pius XII’s Apostolic Constitution, Sacramentum Ordinis?  The name Sacramentum Ordinis was even given to another docuмent by John Paul II, probably as a red herring to throw us off the track.  

    What conclusion does one draw? The Catechism of the Council of Trent states: “In our Sacraments… the form is so definite that any, even a casual deviation from it renders the Sacrament null.” We would never tolerate a change in the form of the Sacrament of Baptism. Never! Can we blithely accept a total deviation in the form of the Sacrament of Holy Orders, a change which omits the part of the traditional form declared essential for validity by Pope Pius XII? I think not! Pope Pius XII changed nothing of the traditional form, but merely designated which part of the form was essential for validity. Paul VI omitted that essential part of the form and replaced it with something entirely new. Not even popes (certainly not would-be popes) can change the form of a Sacrament. Whom do we trust, Pope Pius XII who carefully guarded the traditional sacramental form handed down from ages past, or Paul VI? Paul VI, who on the flimsiest of pretexts changed the essential form of a Sacrament, thus rendering it invalid. The result is that we are left with a whole generation of pseudo-bishops attempting to govern the Church without the grace of office. A miter and a bishop’s ring do not a bishop make. And the Kingdom is brought to desolation (Lk.11:17).  
     
    But even among traditionalists many refuse to consider the possibility of invalid sacramental rites. It’s more convenient to think that if the pope says so it’s got to be OK. But Paul VI told us the Novus Ordo Mass was OK, and look where that has brought us. The day must come when all awaken to the fact that the Church has been brought low by an apostasy more monstrous than we have been willing to admit. Only then will the true bishops emerge, a true pope will restore the hierarchy, and the Church will rise more glorious than ever. “And all mankind shall see the salvation of God” (Lk.3:6).  (Father Louis J. Campbell, "A Kingdom Brought to Desolation (Lk.11:17)," Third Sunday of Lent, March 27, 2011, Saint Jude Shrine, Stafford, Texas.)

    http://christorchaos.com/NextStopOnTheMotuMadnessMerry-Go-Round1969AndBeyond.html
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church


    Offline Capt McQuigg

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    This Seemed Interesting
    « Reply #1 on: August 29, 2012, 10:09:02 AM »
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  • Outstanding post!  Lots of food for thought.  

    I know another poster once said that he now thinks the 1968 new rite of consecration for bishops is completely valid but I would like to see the complete rites (old and new) side by side to draw my own conclusions.  As of right now, I think Lover of Truth is correct.  

    So, does anyone have the complete texts of both forms that they could post?  


    Offline Marlelar

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    This Seemed Interesting
    « Reply #2 on: August 29, 2012, 10:36:57 AM »
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  • Here is a link but I have no way of knowing how accurate it is, can anyone else comment?

    Comparison of old and new


    Marsha

    Offline Nishant

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    This Seemed Interesting
    « Reply #3 on: August 29, 2012, 11:11:15 AM »
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  • The SSPX study is among the most detailed I've read. It presents a lengthy analysis of the rites and entire texts of relevant eastern rites and comes to the opposite conclusion.

    http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php/Why-the-New-Rite-of-Episcopal-Consecration-is-Valid
    "Never will anyone who says his Rosary every day become a formal heretic ... This is a statement I would sign in my blood." St. Montfort, Secret of the Rosary. I support the FSSP, the SSPX and other priests who work for the restoration of doctrinal orthodoxy and liturgical orthopraxis in the Church. I accept Vatican II if interpreted in the light of Tradition and canonisations as an infallible declaration that a person is in Heaven. Sedevacantism is schismatic and Ecclesiavacantism is heretical.

    Offline Capt McQuigg

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    This Seemed Interesting
    « Reply #4 on: August 29, 2012, 11:51:17 AM »
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  • Quote from: Nishant
    The SSPX study is among the most detailed I've read. It presents a lengthy analysis of the rites and entire texts of relevant eastern rites and comes to the opposite conclusion.

    http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php/Why-the-New-Rite-of-Episcopal-Consecration-is-Valid


    Nishant, do you have the entire texts so we could make a side by side comparison?  

    Thanks for linking to the thread I referred to but it was unsatisfactory except in that some people were able to state their opinions pro and con.

    Texts.  

    Complete texts.

    That's what I'm hoping to see.  


    Offline Lover of Truth

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    This Seemed Interesting
    « Reply #5 on: August 29, 2012, 12:03:00 PM »
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  • When you change the essential form of a sacrament you render it doubtful according to the teaching of the Church, and such a sacrament is to be avoided.  The essential form for consecration (of bishops) has been changed.  Why change a sacrament that the laity do not pay attention to anyway.  They do not use the excuse "active participation" of the laity for this one.  Someone called Paul VI on it and he gave an excuse that it went back to some old rite, but he changed the essential form that was in that rite as well!  

    We cannot judge the subjective culpability of anyone, but one can only guess why a supposed Pope would needlessly change the Sacraments, going out of his way to change the essential form in many of them (to get away with it he can't be too obvious, as would be the case if he changed the form of the sacrament of Baptism and Penance).  

    For the new Mass, his "active participation of the people worked" but most people are not even aware that he changed the sacraments.  They don't go to a consecration every Sunday, let alone actively participate and follow along in their missal.

    I will also add that it would be dangerous to claim the new rite is definitively valid because if it is not valid (and at the very least the new rite is certainly questionable) you could be responsible for the peril of the souls you mislead.  You won't catch me insisting that the new rite is valid.  Especially when it is quite obvious that it is not.

    This is even clearer when looking at the new ordination (of Priests) rite.  Again, why change that rite?  

    If a free-masonic sympathizer were to have the fortune of becoming Pope, and his goal was to destroy the Church and make sure as few souls as possible get saved, what better way than to make sure that eventually there would be no more valid Bishops or Priests to administer valid sacraments, which are the ordinary means of obtaining the sanctifying grace that keeps people on the path to Heaven?  How diabolical.  Yet this is what was done.

    http://www.fathercekada.com/

    Saved by Context? The ’68 Rite of Episcopal Consecration
    Thursday, June 21, 2012


    A success for succession?
    QUESTION: Like you, I believe the Conciliar rite of episcopal consecration to be invalid, and that this invalidity is amply supported by your two articles. However, an acquaintance of mine… said the following, [after quoting for me ¶¶ 26-27 of the rite]


    “Sorry guys. I can no longer consider this rite invalid, at least not materially.

    “The prayer of consecration itself, in its ENTIRETY clearly and univocally denotes the grace of the holy spirit, that this grace is the gift of the high priesthood, and that the rank of bishop is being conferred, with some of the particular powers of bishops mentioned: ‘Through the Spirit who gives the grace of high priesthood grant him the power to… assign ministries as you have decreed, and to loose every bond by the authority which you gave to your apostles.’

    “This, for me is earth shattering. There is absolutely no doubt as to the intention here. I agree Paul VI shouldn’t have changed it, but I mean, LOOK. It clearly spells out the role of a Catholic Bishop.”

    Now, I personally disagree with his estimation of the rite’s intention. I see nothing of the consecration coinciding with the true rite, describing the faculties of a bishop, (to judge, interpret, consecrate, ordain, offer sacrifice, baptize or confirm). Can you perhaps comment on his concerns? I fear for his soul, should he be lost to the SSPX or, worse still, the Modernists.

    RESPONSE: This is a variant of an objection to my lengthy 2006 article on the 1968 Rite of Episcopal Consecration, “Absolutely Null and Utterly Void,” that I have answered before, but perhaps not in sufficient detail. I will try to remedy that here.

    Your friend’s objection does not really concern intention (what the minister intends to do) but rather the sacramental form the minister pronounces: Does it say what it is required to say? And does it therefore “work”?

    Assessing this objection hinges on the principle that Pius XII laid down in Sacramentum Ordinis: That the essential sacramental form for the conferral of the episcopacy must univocally signify its sacramental effects: (1) the power of the order being conferred (the Order of episcopacy) and (2) the grace of the Holy Ghost.

    Your friend (and others) argue that, even though the short passage in the Prayer of Consecration that Paul VI designated as the essential sacramental form may not specifically mention the rank of the episcopacy, other language in the Prayer (high priest-hood, power to assign ministries, loose every bond) clearly and univocally denotes that the rank of bishop is being conferred.

    The whole Prayer of Consecration, in other words, makes up for seeming any lack of clarity in the essential sacramental form about the power of the Order being conferred, i.e., the episcopacy.

    So what of this objection? At first glance, it may seem like a plausible argument for validity. It does not, however, withstand closer scrutiny.

    ————————————



    Saved by its context?
    I. OVERTHROWING A GENERAL PRINCIPLE

    By proposing the whole Prayer of Consecration as a requisite for properly understanding the essential form, this argument overthrows the distinction in sacramental moral theology between the words of the rite as a whole and the essential form, which strictly speaking includes “only those words without which the sense of the sacramental sign cannot exist,” and which are therefore re-quired for validity.

    A substantial defect in an essential sacramental form. however, cannot be rendered valid by the language that surrounds it, no matter how specific it may be. Two examples will illustrate the point.

    A. Penance. Thus, while the Roman Ritual II.2 designates four prayers (Misereatur, Indulgentiam, Dominus Noster, Passio Domini) as the “Common Form of Absolution,” only the last sentence of the third prayer is considered the essential sacramental form: I absolve you of your sins in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

    If one of the requisite elements is omitted from the latter formula (I, absolve, you or your sins), the language in the surrounding prayers (forgive you your sins, grant you absolution, remission of sins) does not supply for or fix the omission. The formula is invalid, period.

    B. Baptism. Here too, the texts that precede and follow the es-sential sacramental form (I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost) contain language that refers to new birth, the bath where one is born anew, calling to the font of Baptism, cleansing and sanctification, the grace of baptism, the will to receive baptism, new birth by water and the Holy Ghost, remission of all sins, and safeguarding of one’s baptism by a blameless life.

    However, if I recite all these prayers but omit the word “baptize’ or “you” when I pour the water, the baptism is invalid, because these words are essential elements of the form. It cannot signify without it. The context cannot remedy such omissions, and the rite is invalid, period.

    ————————————

    II. A MISSING ELEMENT

    Pius XII said that the essential form for Holy Orders must signify both the grace of the Holy Ghost and the order being conferred.

    While the essential form Paul VI prescribed contains an ex-pression (spiritus principalis) that can be construed as (among eleven other things) the grace of the Holy Ghost, the new form does not contain a second expression that could be construed as the Order of episcopacy.

    So even assuming that phrases elsewhere in the Prayer (high priesthood, power to assign ministries) clearly connoted the Order of episcopacy, the essential form itself lacks the requisite expression for the phrases to “clarify.” It simply isn’t there.

    ————————————

    III. ADMISSION OF A SUBSTANTIAL DEFECT

    Arguing that phrases elsewhere in the Prayer of Consecration must be adduced to clarify the essential sacramental form, moreover, is an admission that the latter is not univocal, and therefore defective.

    Otherwise, why would one have to look elsewhere in the Prayer of Consecration to figure out what the essential form signifies?

    ————————————



    Symbol without substance?
    IV. EQUIVOCAL QUALIFIERS

    What of the particular expressions themselves? The sentence following the new form speaks (in a subordinate clause) of one “whom You [God] have chosen for the episcopate,” adding:

    May he be a shepherd to your holy flock, and a high priest blameless in your sight, ministering to you night and day; may he always gain the blessing of your favor and offer the gifts of your holy Church. Through the Spirit who gives the grace of high priesthood grant him the power to forgive sins as you have commanded, to assign ministries as you have decreed, and to loose every bond by the authority which you gave to your apostles.

    So even assuming for the sake of argument that another element is present in the Paul VI form to construe as the power of the Sacred Order of bishop, would the foregoing language indeed render that element univocal?

    A. High Priesthood. The two expressions referring to high priesthood may at first look helpful to the argument for validity, but they do not in fact unequivocally connote the Sacred Order of bishop.

    The reason is that Eastern Rite liturgies use similar language in non-sacramental rites to “consecrate” a Metropolitan or a Patriarch. These prayers ask that the candidate serve according to the order of the Great Highpriest, that he is chosen as a high priest over all Thy Church, be a faithful high priest over thy housE, he function in the high priesthood, etc.

    But they do so for offices that are jurisdictional, not sacramental. So the expressions in the Paul VI Prayer of Consecration cannot be univocal, because they can be used to confer a non-sacramental office as well.

    B. Enumerated Powers. Nor do the powers of the high priest-hood enumerated after the new sacramental form unequivocally signify the Sacred Order of bishop.

    • To forgive sins. This is a sacramental power that a priest also possesses.

    • Assign ministries (or distribute “offices” or “gifts”). These acts do not depend upon the sacramental powers of a bishop but upon someone receiving ordinary jurisdiction. Again, a simple priest who received ordinary jurisdiction could “assign ministries.”

    • Loose every bond. This, too, has nothing to do with sacramental powers, and depends only upon jurisdiction.

    ————————————

    V. SIGNIFICANT OMISSIONS

    Moreover, the non-episcopal powers enumerated in the Paul VI Prayer of Consecration and mentioned above in IV.B actually strengthen the case against validity. Why? Because of what they replace and omit.

    The source given for the Paul VI Prayer of Consecration was the Apostolic Tradition of Hippolytus. Various reconstructions of this work, however, contain a petition to God that the candidate would receive “the power… to confer orders according to your bidding” — a sacramental act proper to the Sacred Order of bishop.

    In the Paul VI Prayer this has been replaced with assigning ministries or offices — a purely jurisdictional act.

    That the omission was deliberate is clear from the Coptic Rite form for episcopal consecration, which Dom Botte, the principal author of the new rite, consulted to reconstruct the text of Hippolytus. The Coptic form further specifies after the phrase quoted above (to confer orders) that the bishop is to provide clergy “for the priesthood… to make new houses of prayer, and to consecrate altars.”

    None of this appears in the Paul VI Prayer of Consecration.

    ————————————

    VI. REFUTED BY ITS RUBRICS

    Finally, the rubrics for the Prayer of Consecration in the new rite prescribe that co-consecrating bishops recite only the essential form. The balance of the prayer, which contains the phrases referring to high priesthood, etc., is recited by the principal consecrating bishop alone.

    To argue that the latter language is needed to “clarify” the form is to imply that the co-consecrating bishops omitted something necessary to the validity of the rite. (= The words they recited were not truly univocal.)

    * * *

    THE “CONTEXT” argument cannot therefore be used to maintain that the Paul VI form for episcopal consecration is valid. It overthrows a general principle of sacramental moral theology, it posits the existence of an expression in the sacramental form that is not in fact present (one connoting the power of Orders), it implicitly admits an essential defect, it is founded on expressions that are themselves equivocal, and it is undermined by omission of elements that in the Apostolic Tradition and the Coptic rite referred unequivocally to powers proper the Sacred Order of bishop. The rubrics of the new rite itself, moreover, reduce the context argument to absurdity.

    If one could regard the Paul VI Rite of Episcopal Consecration as unquestionably valid according to the principles of traditional Catholic sacramental moral theology, untold problems could be avoided.

    But alas, it was not to be. The men who gave us the new rite also adhered to a new theology — and Catholics everywhere paid the price.

    __________________
    See this as well:


    http://www.cmri.org/adsum/adsum-2011-06.pdf
    _____________

    See below as well.

    http://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/11_NewEConsecration.pdf
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    This Seemed Interesting
    « Reply #6 on: August 29, 2012, 01:49:54 PM »
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  • Quote from: Capt McQuigg
    Outstanding post!  Lots of food for thought.  

    I know another poster once said that he now thinks the 1968 new rite of consecration for bishops is completely valid but I would like to see the complete rites (old and new) side by side to draw my own conclusions.  As of right now, I think Lover of Truth is correct.  

    So, does anyone have the complete texts of both forms that they could post?  


    Thank you very much.

    It is important to get that right, for many reasons, especially so you can know if you are receiving the Eucharist or worshipping a wafer and if you are absolved of your sins or not, or confirmed, or sent to Heaven by valid Last Rites.  Very important indeed.    
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline stevusmagnus

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    This Seemed Interesting
    « Reply #7 on: September 04, 2012, 08:40:33 AM »
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  • If Paul VI was a valid pope, is there any way he could institute an invalid rite of consecration upon Christ's indefectible Church? Not asking whether Paul VI was a true pope, I'm simply asking if it is theoretically possible for a true pope to issue an invalid form of episcopal consecration? What about as an "optional" form? Could a true pope allow bishops to use a valid form of consecration, but propose an optional form that is invalid?


    Offline Belloc

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    « Reply #8 on: September 04, 2012, 09:02:25 AM »
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  • One would have to ask:
    -why another option?
    -why not just the TLM?
    -why not true reforms, if, any needed t ocorrect ambiguities or abuses?
    -why not another option for the other 20 Rites of the Church?

    Despite minor changes since 1570 in the TLM, no new options were even remotely considered since St. Pius V to 1965.....why?
    Proud "European American" and prouder, still, Catholic

    Offline Capt McQuigg

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    « Reply #9 on: September 04, 2012, 10:26:49 AM »
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  • Quote from: Belloc
    One would have to ask:
    -why another option?
    -why not just the TLM?
    -why not true reforms, if, any needed t ocorrect ambiguities or abuses?
    -why not another option for the other 20 Rites of the Church?

    Despite minor changes since 1570 in the TLM, no new options were even remotely considered since St. Pius V to 1965.....why?


    Yeah!!!!  I mean, Paul VI left virtually nothing unmolested.

    Paul VI took something that had clarity and had served the Catholic Church and the Lord well for centuries and replaced it with something very vague and something very similar to what the heretics are using.

    What do you say?

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    « Reply #10 on: September 05, 2012, 06:58:46 AM »
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  • Quote from: stevusmagnus
    If Paul VI was a valid pope, is there any way he could institute an invalid rite of consecration upon Christ's indefectible Church? Not asking whether Paul VI was a true pope, I'm simply asking if it is theoretically possible for a true pope to issue an invalid form of episcopal consecration? What about as an "optional" form? Could a true pope allow bishops to use a valid form of consecration, but propose an optional form that is invalid?


    Good question.  A valid Pope cannot issue an invalid form of episcopal consecration, or an invalid Mass, or a Mass that is an incentive to impiety, or other doubtful Sacraments, or approve a heretial Council, or approve and maintain all said and a hereticl code of canon law.  All these things, and others, the false Popes have done are stronger proof of the SV reality than the undeniable fact that public heretics cannot be Pope which is all the proof that is needed.  All these official actions by the false Popes are not what makes them lose their office but shows that they did not hold it when they did approved, promulgated and maintain/ed those things.
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church


    Offline Nishant

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    « Reply #11 on: September 05, 2012, 03:02:17 PM »
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  • Captain, would you be referring to the poster Gregory I when you said "another poster once said that he now thinks the 1968 new rite of consecration for bishops is completely valid"?

    The link I posted above was the link to the SSPX study in this forum library. It makes a very thorough and compelling case in my opinion.

    It seems to me that there are at least three different ways to approach the question.

    First, it suffices to show for validity that the new rite is substantially based on one of antiquity. Especially if as appears to be the case, the rite is based on the work Apostolic Tradition by St.Hippolytus as well as similar Eastern rites. There are other concerns remaining, but for validity that is enough.

    Second, it can be deduced from the consecratory prayer. This was Gregory I's approach. And he presented a good analysis for why he began to believe it was valid.

    Third, with regard to what StevusMagnus asked, I think what does follow is that if Pope Paul VI was Pope, then the rite he promulgated would be valid. However, the reverse is not true, that is, if Pope Paul VI was not Pope, it would not follow by that alone that the rite is not valid.

    The entire texts are here.

    Priests

    Bishops
    "Never will anyone who says his Rosary every day become a formal heretic ... This is a statement I would sign in my blood." St. Montfort, Secret of the Rosary. I support the FSSP, the SSPX and other priests who work for the restoration of doctrinal orthodoxy and liturgical orthopraxis in the Church. I accept Vatican II if interpreted in the light of Tradition and canonisations as an infallible declaration that a person is in Heaven. Sedevacantism is schismatic and Ecclesiavacantism is heretical.

    Offline Capt McQuigg

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    « Reply #12 on: September 05, 2012, 04:49:27 PM »
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  • Quote from: Nishant
    Captain, would you be referring to the poster Gregory I when you said "another poster once said that he now thinks the 1968 new rite of consecration for bishops is completely valid"?

    The link I posted above was the link to the SSPX study in this forum library. It makes a very thorough and compelling case in my opinion.

    It seems to me that there are at least three different ways to approach the question.

    First, it suffices to show for validity that the new rite is substantially based on one of antiquity. Especially if as appears to be the case, the rite is based on the work Apostolic Tradition by St.Hippolytus as well as similar Eastern rites. There are other concerns remaining, but for validity that is enough.

    Second, it can be deduced from the consecratory prayer. This was Gregory I's approach. And he presented a good analysis for why he began to believe it was valid.

    Third, with regard to what StevusMagnus asked, I think what does follow is that if Pope Paul VI was Pope, then the rite he promulgated would be valid. However, the reverse is not true, that is, if Pope Paul VI was not Pope, it would not follow by that alone that the rite is not valid.

    The entire texts are here.

    Priests

    Bishops


    Do you have the full text for the pre-1968 rituals for Bishop and Priest?

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    « Reply #13 on: September 06, 2012, 05:44:41 AM »
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  • Quote from: Capt McQuigg
    Quote from: Nishant
    Captain, would you be referring to the poster Gregory I when you said "another poster once said that he now thinks the 1968 new rite of consecration for bishops is completely valid"?

    The link I posted above was the link to the SSPX study in this forum library. It makes a very thorough and compelling case in my opinion.

    It seems to me that there are at least three different ways to approach the question.

    First, it suffices to show for validity that the new rite is substantially based on one of antiquity. Especially if as appears to be the case, the rite is based on the work Apostolic Tradition by St.Hippolytus as well as similar Eastern rites. There are other concerns remaining, but for validity that is enough.

    Second, it can be deduced from the consecratory prayer. This was Gregory I's approach. And he presented a good analysis for why he began to believe it was valid.

    Third, with regard to what StevusMagnus asked, I think what does follow is that if Pope Paul VI was Pope, then the rite he promulgated would be valid. However, the reverse is not true, that is, if Pope Paul VI was not Pope, it would not follow by that alone that the rite is not valid.

    The entire texts are here.

    Priests

    Thomas Aquinas says you should not mess with the form of the sacrament and at the very best doing so is a mortal sin and renders the sacrament doubtful which means it should be avoided.

    SSPX likes to keep their hands in both pies, the are not members of new Church, yet, but the head of new Church is their Pope.  And we all know a Pope would invalidate Sacraments right.  Unless he was not a valid Pope.  But the SSPX starting point is he MUST be valid and then they have to make everything else fall into place based upon that false supposition.  So they justify everything about new Church even though they do not like it.  They kind of have to in order to appear consistant.  

    Bishops


    Do you have the full text for the pre-1968 rituals for Bishop and Priest?
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline KofCTrad

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    « Reply #14 on: September 06, 2012, 05:55:17 AM »
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  • Quote from: stevusmagnus
    If Paul VI was a valid pope, is there any way he could institute an invalid rite of consecration upon Christ's indefectible Church? Not asking whether Paul VI was a true pope, I'm simply asking if it is theoretically possible for a true pope to issue an invalid form of episcopal consecration? What about as an "optional" form? Could a true pope allow bishops to use a valid form of consecration, but propose an optional form that is invalid?


    No. The last thing on a true Pope's mind would be altering the sacraments. He'd have much more pressing concerns. Especially considering that he'd know that changing the rites of the Church into other new rites is specifically anathematized and solumnly condemned by the Council of Trent.