Author Topic: Things I wish to discuss (Read 4423 times)

Jim · « **on:** July 01, 2011, 11:51:03 PM »

I joined this board to be able to converse with fellow traditional Catholics on topics which are quite serious, and several ideas (for example, that the last five men claiming to be Popes are not in fact popes) My only fear in this is that I may be wrong, and in doing so, may lead others into false ideas. My thoughts on the state of Holy Mother Church, whom all of us love dearly, have changed. In less than 5 years, I went from lukewarm typical Catholic, to conservative Catholic, to reform of the reform, to FSSP Trad, and now I am of the extreme hardline SSPX leaning towards moderate sedevacantism camp. I also wish to use terms(neo trads, etc) and to actually discuss what I think, but I do not want to sin or scandalize others in doing so.

The other thing is I have not really spent much time with many different trads or just trads. My family isn't trad, most of the Masses I attend are said by a diocesan priest who resisted the NO after he was ordained, I've only been to the SSPX once, etc. I just have grave fears. What if my scruples with the new orders, sacraments, etc. are dumbfounded and I am wrong? Our priest was ordained by a valid pre-NO bishop, but in the new rite for priesthood? What if Frs. Cekada and Jenkins are right, and Michael Davies are wrong. This is quite important in re: confession and the sacraments we receive. I do not know any of the characters of traditionalism, the scandals, etc.

PartyIsOver221 · « **Reply #1 on:** July 02, 2011, 01:10:06 AM »

Go to a CMRI mass and tell us how it went. It might squash all your doubts knowing its a TLM from an actual old rite ordained priest...not that this can't be found at other various independent chapels around the country.

And God bless you for following truth in the Faith with traditionalism.

Jim · « **Reply #2 on:** July 02, 2011, 02:24:27 AM »

Where I live, there is no CMRI chapel. The closest sedevacantist priest is Fr. Thomas Zapp. There is also the priest who runs the Tradition website, but I do not know about going there. I am not exactly in a 100% independent condition to go to any Mass I please, as I will shock family and the friends/priest who I attend with. I feel that if I begin to tell my loved one and friends that the past five men claiming to be pope are not, that this scandal could actually harm their faith. Even if they are the Pope, what we can collectively call the "Novus Ordo" has been quite a scandal for the last 53 years. (Please note, I tend to be scrupulous. The past sentence is an example of things I want to say. Is it sinful at all when I make statements like this?) There is non-sede church around here that has a priest who was ordained by a bishop ordained in the old rite, but as I said in the sentence about my present situation, and also, like I said, what if the sedes are wrong about the new episcopal rite?

MaterDominici · « **Reply #3 on:** July 02, 2011, 02:41:06 AM »

Lay out your real options for where to attend Mass. Some people have three or four options in their area; others may have no trouble moving to a desired Mass location. Be realistic in that unless you've moved, you probably aren't going to have the best option in your area be right in your neighborhood. If you have certainly valid sacraments anywhere near you, then go there. If it's a bit too far to go weekly, then go once or twice monthly.

Unless you have a very rare exception, going to any non-diocesan Mass is going to be better than where you are in almost every respect (sermons, spiritual advice, fellow parishioners, etc) no matter if it's SSPX, CMRI, independant, or whatever.

If you find that your EF Mass really is your only option and you don't have reason to believe that what is preached there is actually damaging to your Faith, then go and be at peace that you're doing the best you can with what you have. God isn't going to punish you for that. Pray, as we always should, that you're doing His will in the matter and have Faith that you will be steered elsewhere if He sees fit to do so.

As far as discussion on Internet forums, I'd advise that you always be open to the possibility that your own opinions regarding the Crisis are wrong. The first rule on this board:
In necessary things, unity.
In doubtful things, liberty.
In all things, charity.
Keep more focus on that which is necessary to save your soul--elimination of vice, increase in virtue, development of spiritual life--these things are the same wether or not BXVI is the Pope.

If you've convinced a dozen people that the papacy is(n't) void but have neglected to assist your spouse, children, parents, etc in their journey toward Heaven, what have you really accomplished?

PartyIsOver221 · « **Reply #4 on:** July 02, 2011, 06:51:44 AM »

I would not worry about scrupulosity over whether on not you sin over saying things such as 'the last X amount of popes were not popes at all', 'Novus ordo is a protestant worship service and not from a valid council', etc. .. because all these claims are not claims anymore after 50 years of evidence, research, and plain ol' observation. They are fact. The info is all over this forum, the internet, peoples' heads at CMRI, SSPV, and some SSPX churches. In these times of "spiritual chaos and meltdown" we must hold true to Tradition and Scripture, both of which the TLM and their followers proclaim in the highest percentage.

Once you go to a TLM for a few weeks, you won't be able to go back to any NO; thats for sure. Just try it out and God will tell you why in your heart. Its eerie how He does it, but He does , and it brings about peace because you are no longer in a cognitive dissonance about the faith.

And I second what MaterDominici has to say about strengthening in virtue and a prayer life. Once you are on the traditional track, those matters are of high importance (not that knowing who the pope is is not an important matter... anyways thats a whole discussion right there lol)

gladius_veritatis · « **Reply #5 on:** July 02, 2011, 07:13:28 AM »

There is nothing to fear where discovering the truth is concerned. Given the wildness of the times, it is almost a given that you are, in fact, wrong about SOMETHING, and that you will, in fact, make a few mistakes as you try to find your way. No one has a magic formula to give you, so do your best, trusting that it is God leading you onward. Yes, He makes use of men, but He is the one moving your mind and heart, granting you the desire to know, love, and serve Him more perfectly.

Ask your questions, engage in interesting and sometimes-profitable discussion, and be at peace as He leads you along the path He has designed for you from all eternity.

God has already rewarded and will continue to reward your efforts. Welcome to the site :)

Exilenomore · « **Reply #6 on:** July 02, 2011, 07:27:32 AM »

I have said this in another thread as well, but I think it bears repeating. The best thing to do first is to try and find a good pre-conciliar catechism to learn about the faith as it was taught by the Holy Fathers and Roman Pontiffs. Formation is very important.

Nonno · « **Reply #7 on:** July 02, 2011, 07:34:33 AM »

Quote

leaning towards moderate sedevacantism camp

If this is your status after 5 years from being a lukewarm Novus Ordo Catholic, I would say you have a good head on your shoulders and you are responding well to grace. Keep it up, and make sure to pray a good Rosary daily, and always remember that the truth contains no contradictions.

Arborman · « **Reply #8 on:** July 02, 2011, 07:47:36 AM »

I understand your fears having just gone through the process myself, going from NO to diocesan Latin Mass to SSPX. People said "Oh Boy" when we went to the Latin Mass and now with us at the SSPX we may have lost some old friends but there is just no going back.

Don't let fear run your life, if you have a SSPX chapel near you just commit to going and you won't be sorry.

TKGS · « **Reply #9 on:** July 02, 2011, 08:50:54 AM »

Truth can never destroy a person's faith.

You know your friends and relatives and presenting the truth may require a certain approach, but truth is truth and will go on being obstinently true no matter what.

If you are not 100% sure of a particular chapel and you are asked about your attendance there, explain that you are seaching for the truth and this is part of your investigation. If you find the truth there, continue. This will give your friends and relatives time to get used to your attendance there. Eventually, should they ask why you are still going there, you can begin to expose them to the truth.

Always be ready to explain truth when you are asked and never stop searching.

The fact is that each and every one of us could be wrong concerning our conclusions to the present crisis. But being wrong will not condemn us to hell unless we abandon the truths of the Catholic Faith. Thus, if something was true before Vatican II it must still be true and if something was false before Vatican II it must still be false. The fact is that conciliar priests and bishops routinely pronounce doctrines that conflict with the doctrines of the Church prior to Vatican II; so those doctrines must be false and the Church has always taught the faithful to have nothing to do with such teachers. Is it remotely possible that such teachers could still, somehow, retain their authority in the Church? While I do not know how, I must accept that I haven't the authority to declare this in a way that can bind anyone else's conscience. But I must follow my own even if others hate me for it.

By the way, my relations (some of whom are Catholic, others are not) see me and my family as rather eccentric, though they tolerate us. I must admit a situation we had with a grandmother (non-Catholic) who when asked a question about something that would be answered in the affirmative replied, "Is the pope Catholic?" There was a deadening silence and I replied, that's an interesting question and then my youngest son (8 years old) said, "I say, 'No!'." She didn't want to discuss it any further and returned to the original conversation.

ServusSpiritusSancti · « **Reply #10 on:** July 02, 2011, 09:58:29 AM »

Jim, first of all I'd like to welcome you to CatholicInfo. You'll get what you're looking for regarding answers to your questions here more-so than any other forum. As for your situation, basically what people on this thread have been telling you sums it up. Look for a TLM, whether it's SSPX, CMRI, FSSP, Independant, etc. As PartyIsOver said, once you attend the TLM for a while, you can never go back to the Novus Ordo (and no it's not sinful to cut down the NO).

Nonno · « **Reply #11 on:** July 02, 2011, 10:10:07 AM »

Quote from: SpiritusSanctus

and no it's not sinful to cut down the NO.

I disagree, only because the Church disagrees with you SS. It is sinful to fault anything the Church has officially approved of in Her liturgy or laws. To avoid sin and still be able to condemn the Novus Ordo Missae, one must reject the validity of the alleged popes since Vatican II.

ServusSpiritusSancti · « **Reply #12 on:** July 02, 2011, 10:14:45 AM »

No, the Church did not approve the Novus Ordo. It was approved by the Vatican II anti-church and by a man (Paul VI) who was a Freemason and an anti-pope. And I say he was an anti-pope not based on my own opinion, but on Church teachings. Anyone who joins Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ is automatically excommunicated from the Church, so when I say he's an anti-pope I'm saying so according to what the Church teaches.

MaterDominici · « **Reply #13 on:** July 02, 2011, 12:47:32 PM »

Quote from: TKGS

By the way, my relations (some of whom are Catholic, others are not) see me and my family as rather eccentric, though they tolerate us. I must admit a situation we had with a grandmother (non-Catholic) who when asked a question about something that would be answered in the affirmative replied, "Is the pope Catholic?" There was a deadening silence and I replied, that's an interesting question and then my youngest son (8 years old) said, "I say, 'No!'." She didn't want to discuss it any further and returned to the original conversation.

heehee
That phrase just doesn't work like it used to.

Jim · « **Reply #14 on:** July 02, 2011, 12:49:22 PM »

I almost exclusively attend the TLM.